MDs with the fewest hours/week

[rem6775]

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Many things that come natural to us are not justified. Heaven forbid someone has their own hours in mind and a separate life that they want to live.



Strongly disagreed. Hours working on the job are a component of the job as much as the intellectual stimulation, the challenge, the responsibility, and all the other factors involved with a job.

Let's put it this way. If you were forced/expected to work 120 hours a week to be a physician, people would not clamor for the job, nor would they chastise others for avoiding the job for this reason. However, when the hours drop down to say 70 or 80, some people are OK with it. However, others still may not be, and who's to say that you're concept of what is a proper amount of hours is any better than Joe Smoe who thinks that the job shouldn't require more than 40 hours or 30 hours?

You're exactly right, you'll be doing this career for 40+ hours. If you're going to be at the end of this feeling overworked and like you're missing out on life, you're going to feel like you're in prison. Sure, maybe you should consider another career. But there's no guarantee you'll like some other job any more than medicine. We are neither obligated nor qualified to make statements about what people should decide is most important for their life choices and I find this constant attempt here to force ideologies and priorities on each other an overstepping of one's bounds.

Again, let people live their life the way they want and according to their principles. For some people, it's just a job. Not saying it's my view, but just because it isn't mine doesn't mean it can't be right for someone else.

The other thing you should consider is that most specialties can find ways to control their hours, with varying impact on their salaries/earnings. Sure, an orthopaedic surgeon may work from 5 am to 6 pm everyday and make $600,000, but that same person can take a job elsewhere, with a different group (or even with the same one), work less and simply make less. Don't underestimate money as the driving force for many physicians--regardless of specialty--to work long hours. I mean think about it, after working all day every day through medical school only to take out ridiculous amounts of loans and living off of no money, working 65 hours a week to pull in good money seems pretty good. I'll admit I'm no saint, and I'm not as naive as some medical students (perhaps because I'm an economist as well) when it comes to using salary and hours as part of the consideration when choosing a specialty, but you can't pick a specialty you hate just because of the salary and hours. It should only be a part of the consideration. Every specialty can find ways to make money or sacrifice some of it to work less, but you can't change what you're doing as easily.

 

[Narmerguy]

The other thing you should consider is that most specialties can find ways to control their hours, with varying impact on their salaries/earnings. Sure, an orthopaedic surgeon may work from 5 am to 6 pm everyday and make $600,000, but that same person can take a job elsewhere, with a different group (or even with the same one), work less and simply make less. Don't underestimate money as the driving force for many physicians--regardless of specialty--to work long hours. I mean think about it, after working all day every day through medical school only to take out ridiculous amounts of loans and living off of no money, working 65 hours a week to pull in good money seems pretty good. I'll admit I'm no saint, and I'm not as naive as some medical students (perhaps because I'm an economist as well) when it comes to using salary and hours as part of the consideration when choosing a specialty, but you can't pick a specialty you hate just because of the salary and hours. It should only be a part of the consideration. Every specialty can find ways to make money or sacrifice some of it to work less, but you can't change what you're doing as easily.

Point well made. I had overlooked this and I would certainly agree with you.

 

[Lisa D]

I understand your concern, but it sounds to me like you're going to pick a career based off the number of hours you'll have to work (which is a horrible approach). I think that once your in med school and you go through rotations you can start deciding then about what sort of career you may like. Because let's face it, if you become a radiologist and hate the job (even if you work less hours) all that hard work and money you put into becoming a doctor would've been a waste. And yes I said waste because you should have a career that you are passionate about, not just one that has a good salary. If you're going to go through all of this effort to become a MD you might as well pick a career that you "naturally" want to dedicate yourself to.

Hey there, this has definitely crossed my mind but the fact is that all my life I've wanted to be SOMETHING in the medical field. When it comes to careers within the medical field I have many many interests. This thread has really helped. I'll wait until I start shadowing to ask questions since I know medicine is the field for me no matter what.

 

[lll1I1lII1lll1I]

Use the search function. I hate to be the Nazi that uses this line, but there are so many threads concerning this topic.

In a nutshell, R.O.A.D. Radiology, Opthalmology, Anesthesiology, and Dermatology.

Wrong.

Medicine is a career NOT a job. You either like what you're doing or you don't. Shoveling ****, that's a job. Trash collection is a job. Medicine is a career. Law also. Career implies you're doing it because you want more than just the paycheck, etc but because you have passion for it.

I get it, who doesn't want to work less and still earn a good pay. I also agree that you should come into medical school with some type of goal. However, the OP comes of as "I want to do these specialties or nothing at all" and that just screams closed-mindedness. To refuse to consider anything else is unfortunate at best. Furthermore, the specialties with good hours are highly competitive, what happens if OP can't do those? Just quit because the hours are too long? That being said, medicine should not be your entire life but it will be a HUGE part of it so you might as well choose something that you actually enjoy doing. Even the most tedious jobs will seem short if you're interested and the easiest will feel long if you can't wait to leave for whatever reason.

Exactly. Medicine is going to be what you do for the vast majority of your awake life. So the MOST important thing is to find something you enjoy. If you don't enjoy it, do something else. Don't kid yourself into thinking you can learn to like some specialty because the hours are better. You cannot. There will be people who like and dislike every rotation in med school. You have to figure out what your likes are, and pick a career based on that. It is *****ic to say, well I don't really enjoy this, but the hours are better so I'll suffer through it so I can have more of a life. The 10 hours/week you save won't be worth the 50 hours/week at work you have to suffer. They just won't. As mentioned, if you have no real choices in life, then sure, you can take a job where the pay/hours are decent and live for the weekend. But if you have choices, as all people smart enough to get into med school do, then you are OBLIGATED to find something you enjoy. This is your career -- something not equivalent to some 9-5er's job. You are investing far more human capital to get it, and you are supposed to enjoy and be interested in it. It is not a "job" you can plod through counting the hours and living for the weekends (to the extent you are off). A career is different. A profession is different. And so your analysis has to be very different as well.

People can do whatever the hell they want to do. If they'd rather choose something with fewer hours, but is less interesting and less enjoyable (say, dermatology over burn surgery), then there's nothing *****ic about that. It's a matter of preference, not intelligence. Maybe you'd be less happy, but that doesn't mean everyone will be less happy. I don't understand why you feel that anyone with preferences that are different from your own are "*****ic." I totally agree with you that working 70 hours a week doing something I'm passionate about is way better than working 40 hours a week of doing paper filing or something, but not everyone who's not a ***** feels that way.

Oh, and not all jobs are careers, but all careers are jobs. According to dictionary.com, a job refers to any kind of part time or full time employment, such as one's career. So... yeah, being a doctor is a job.

 

[EmersonAnne]

not even in med school yet and looking for least hours? You have at least 7 years before you can think of doing those cushy attending hours ... sounds kinda lazy to me. 👎

I don't think it sounds lazy at all. It sounds smart. The OP needs to know what to expect for a lifetime if she wants to go into med. It would be stupid to know you want part-time hours and go into medicine without first asking if it's possible.

 

[EmersonAnne]

I can't believe nobody mentioned PM&R (physical medicine & rehabilitation). The jobs pay really well and the hours are relatively cush. I never took in-house call during my entire residency. This might answer some of your questions:

http://doccartoon.blogspot.com/2010/04/what-is-pm.html

Not even during internship? Don't you have to do an IM internship year?

 

[EmersonAnne]

I understand your concern, but it sounds to me like you're going to pick a career based off the number of hours you'll have to work (which is a horrible approach). I think that once your in med school and you go through rotations you can start deciding then about what sort of career you may like. Because let's face it, if you become a radiologist and hate the job (even if you work less hours) all that hard work and money you put into becoming a doctor would've been a waste. And yes I said waste because you should have a career that you are passionate about, not just one that has a good salary. If you're going to go through all of this effort to become a MD you might as well pick a career that you "naturally" want to dedicate yourself to.

I think you're wrong. To some people, medicine is their passion, but they're fond of many specialties and what matters most to them is their family. There's nothing wrong with picking a specialty based on lifestyle if you want to make your family your priority. Not everyone wants to be married to the job. I know many people who would rather work 30 hours in a specialty they like rather than 90 hours in a specialty they love.

 

[EmersonAnne]

As a resident regardless of specialty you will be working 80 hours a week and sometimes more, after that depending on specialty you will still be working same hours, you asking this question seems ignorant and shows that you don't place medicine in priority. It's natural people get pissed of at your thread question.

EN

If you really think that medicine should be everyone's priority, you're in for a very rude awakening. Like it or not, some of us are real adults with families and we have different priorities than 20-year-olds who've never been beyond the walls of their college institution.

 

[EmersonAnne]

I was not judging the OP. I never said there was anything wrong with choosing a specialty now. I was trying to encourage the OP to keep an open mind because it will help them later. If someone on the forums said "I am a freshman in high school, but I REALLY want to do dermatology. It's the only thing I will ever be able to do, and I can't possibly do anything else", I would have given the exact same answer.

And you would have been just as wrong. If someone was a freshman in HS and said they can't do anything but derm, we'd say don't go into medicine because you need to be open to other specialties if you want a career in medicine. It's the same thing with the OP. If it isn't possible to work less than 80 hours a week in any specialty in medicine, then medicine isn't the right career path for her and she shouldn't apply to med school.

 

[EmersonAnne]

However, the OP comes of as "I want to do these specialties or nothing at all" and that just screams closed-mindedness.

No she didn't. She said she wants to work minimal hours and asked which specialties are conducive to that. Why is that such a big deal? Why does it reek of closed-mindedness? It doesn't. I'm about to enter second year and I can promise you I will never, ever, ever, ever be a neurosurgeon (or a regular surgeon for that matter), even if I love it. Why? The hours. There are other things that are important to me in life and I will not sacrifice them so that I can work upwards of 80 hours a week for the next 40 years. Does that make me lazy?

Furthermore, the specialties with good hours are highly competitive,

No, they're not. PMR, Psych, EM, even IM (hospitalist, which is shift-work) and sometimes FM (with a pay cut) have decent hours. Those aren't ridiculously competitive.

 

[lll1I1lII1lll1I]

And you would have been just as wrong. If someone was a freshman in HS and said they can't do anything but derm, we'd say don't go into medicine because you need to be open to other specialties if you want a career in medicine. It's the same thing with the OP. If it isn't possible to work less than 80 hours a week in any specialty in medicine, then medicine isn't the right career path for her and she shouldn't apply to med school.

Uh...

Care to explain your logic there? You can easily avoid working 80+ hours a week throughout your entire life and still become a great doctor. Even during residencies:

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/user/specStatisticsSearch.do?method=viewSpecialty&pageNumber=2

 

[EmersonAnne]

Uh...

Care to explain your logic there? You can easily avoid working 80+ hours a week throughout your entire life and still become a great doctor. Even during residencies:

https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/user/specStatisticsSearch.do?method=viewSpecialty&pageNumber=2

I was saying IF. It was a hypothetical directed at the people who were telling the OP that her question was premature. My point was that hypothetically, if it isn't possible to work less than 80 hours a week, then the OP shouldn't go into medicine. Therefore, her question is 100% relevant and not at all premature.

 

[catalase]

Many things that come natural to us are not justified. Heaven forbid someone has their own hours in mind and a separate life that they want to live.



Strongly disagreed. Hours working on the job are a component of the job as much as the intellectual stimulation, the challenge, the responsibility, and all the other factors involved with a job.

Let's put it this way. If you were forced/expected to work 120 hours a week to be a physician, people would not clamor for the job, nor would they chastise others for avoiding the job for this reason. However, when the hours drop down to say 70 or 80, some people are OK with it. However, others still may not be, and who's to say that you're concept of what is a proper amount of hours is any better than Joe Smoe who thinks that the job shouldn't require more than 40 hours or 30 hours?

You're exactly right, you'll be doing this career for 40+ hours. If you're going to be at the end of this feeling overworked and like you're missing out on life, you're going to feel like you're in prison. Sure, maybe you should consider another career. But there's no guarantee you'll like some other job any more than medicine. We are neither obligated nor qualified to make statements about what people should decide is most important for their life choices and I find this constant attempt here to force ideologies and priorities on each other an overstepping of one's bounds.

Again, let people live their life the way they want and according to their principles. For some people, it's just a job. Not saying it's my view, but just because it isn't mine doesn't mean it can't be right for someone else.

Good post narmerguy. Choosing any profession is not like choosing a red or blue sno-cone. It is a complex equation of trade-offs, sacrifices, and personal limits.

Let's say that (hypothetically) I want to make 400k/year, work 35 hours, and retire a multi-millionaire by the time I'm 50. Is there a "solution" to this? Of course not; there's only trade-offs. Usually this means more work for more pay, but this added stress is better handled by some than by others. I appreciate Law2Doc's posts and I welcome his sentiment that pre-meds should know that medicine isn't a bed of roses, but he is oversimplifying the issue. Not everyone has the same priorities, and each person is free to maximize his or her own preferences. Therefore, it IS reasonable for a pre-med student to at least consider the possibility of a more traditional workload after residency. Yes, I understand that said student is not fully equipped to make decisions until after the Steps and rotations, but at every interview Joe Applicant is asked whether he has fully considered the lifestyles of physicians in America. I don't understand why someone making these considerations is always lectured.

 

[MCAT guy]

Career implies you're doing it because you want more than just the paycheck, etc but because you have passion for it.

Ah? This is kind of a silly assertion. A career is just a chosen profession. Lots of teachers hate teaching. Lots of pilots don't like to fly.

Those are careers. A career is just a field you chose to work in. Believe it or not there are people in the world who are involved in careers because they pay well or they are good at them. It's not idealistic but it is reality.

I get it, who doesn't want to work less and still earn a good pay. I also agree that you should come into medical school with some type of goal. However, the OP comes of as "I want to do these specialties or nothing at all" and that just screams closed-mindedness.

Again, this is kind of a silly assertion. I am not a lazy person, in my last career I was considered a workaholic and didn't take a vacation over 2 years. With that said, everyone gets to chose what they want to do. It is dumb for you to judge a person and say, "you can't want to do _____." Every person gets to chose their own path. It is completely alright for a person to say, "I want to do ___ specialty or nothing at all." In fact if you study some of the great successes throughout history, they had an "all or nothing" mentality.

To refuse to consider anything else is unfortunate at best. Furthermore, the specialties with good hours are highly competitive, what happens if OP can't do those? Just quit because the hours are too long? That being said, medicine should not be your entire life but it will be a HUGE part of it so you might as well choose something that you actually enjoy doing. Even the most tedious jobs will seem short if you're interested and the easiest will feel long if you can't wait to leave for whatever reason.

I agree that this is best case scenario. Do what you enjoy. But don't be so narrow minded to exclude the reality that some people do what they are good at because it pays well.

 

[MCAT guy]

People can do whatever the hell they want to do. If they'd rather choose something with fewer hours, but is less interesting and less enjoyable (say, dermatology over burn surgery), then there's nothing *****ic about that. It's a matter of preference, not intelligence. Maybe you'd be less happy, but that doesn't mean everyone will be less happy. I don't understand why you feel that anyone with preferences that are different from your own are "*****ic." I totally agree with you that working 70 hours a week doing something I'm passionate about is way better than working 40 hours a week of doing paper filing or something, but not everyone who's not a ***** feels that way.

Oh, and not all jobs are careers, but all careers are jobs. According to dictionary.com, a job refers to any kind of part time or full time employment, such as one's career. So... yeah, being a doctor is a job.

Well spoken. Agree on all points.

 

[MCAT guy]

If you really think that medicine should be everyone's priority, you're in for a very rude awakening. Like it or not, some of us are real adults with families and we have different priorities than 20-year-olds who've never been beyond the walls of their college institution.

agreed here too.

SDN is full of people who have wanted to be a doctor since childhood or whatever (high school). Like the people who are asking about MCAT prep in high school.

Really?

There is more to life than medicine. I hope when all of you are at the end of your lives you didn't focus every waking hour at medicine (even though we may have to during the tough years of residency/medical school).

There is so much more to life than MCAT/STEPs/premium residency/etc

I'm not saying don't work hard but I am saying better to be balanced and happy than the ULTIMATE SUPERSTAR MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL and miserable, divorced, hardly knowing your kids, etc.

 

[lll1I1lII1lll1I]

I was saying IF. It was a hypothetical directed at the people who were telling the OP that her question was premature. My point was that hypothetically, if it isn't possible to work less than 80 hours a week, then the OP shouldn't go into medicine. Therefore, her question is 100% relevant and not at all premature.

Sorry, I was (still am) pretty confused about the wording...

 

[allover]

yeah, you go ahead and pick a career based on ANY criteria thats good for YOU, even if its 100% $$$$$. the patient does not care why you provide good service, only that you do.

 

[theVster]

I don't really mind the fact that the OP is coming in with the expectation of wanting to go into something with low hours and good pay. That's the American Dream in a way--be able to get a job, do well enough for yourself in it, and have a good life.

That being said, almost EVERY field in medicine requires a ton of work and a ton of hours put in. The notable exceptions that are discussed (dermatology, ophthalmology, radiology) are not really exceptions. I know a dermatologist who works 60 hours a week, and radiologists have to work call. Also ophthalmology is not really that cushy in areas where you have a lot of them unless you specialize in something like retinal surgery or something--and you're on call at very late hours etc. General ophthalmology especially in the tri-state area (NY, NJ, PA) does not really make the megabucks that it's reputed to make and you do have to work long hours.

Point is, medicine is a hard, hard field to go into both in terms of lifestyle and amount of work to put in. Go with what you like, and treat it as something fun.

 

[theVster]

Also--you guys are daft if you think you can profit purely from your salary in medicine. For profit, you need good economic sense (something doctors notoriously do not have) and the ability to save well and target your money well. In other words INVEST, INVEST, INVEST, in whatever you like (housing, stocks, mutual funds, etc). A lot of doctors make this mistake of going into medicine, spending a load of money, realizing that they're not retaining anything in the bank or for future savings, and then end up having to work until they're 75 in order to have enough money to retire. I don't know about you but that blows. When I'm old I want to enjoy my life without having to work and living purely off of social security.

I know an IM doctor who has a salary of something like 180k a year, which is a little above average (160k being the average). He has nearly 10 million in investments, savings, and IRAs and whatnot. I also know an orthopedic surgeon who barely makes ends meet because he buys cars and stupid unnecessary crap instead of saving his money while managing to live within his means. Point is, just because you're in a lucrative field does not mean you're going to be rich. That requires a good economic sense and the ability to save and invest, something much of the US seems to lack... if more people had it we wouldn't be in this recession

 

[mechanictodr]

You mixed Colbert with TF2? How does that relate?

 

[theVster]

You mixed Colbert with TF2? How does that relate?

Not me, I found it on the internet, and it's pure bad@$$ery.

 

[EmersonAnne]

Sorry, I was (still am) pretty confused about the wording...

Not sure why you're still confused, but I don't know how to explain it any better.

 

[NickNaylor]

Also--you guys are daft if you think you can profit purely from your salary in medicine. For profit, you need good economic sense (something doctors notoriously do not have) and the ability to save well and target your money well. In other words INVEST, INVEST, INVEST, in whatever you like (housing, stocks, mutual funds, etc). A lot of doctors make this mistake of going into medicine, spending a load of money, realizing that they're not retaining anything in the bank or for future savings, and then end up having to work until they're 75 in order to have enough money to retire. I don't know about you but that blows. When I'm old I want to enjoy my life without having to work and living purely off of social security.

I know an IM doctor who has a salary of something like 180k a year, which is a little above average (160k being the average). He has nearly 10 million in investments, savings, and IRAs and whatnot. I also know an orthopedic surgeon who barely makes ends meet because he buys cars and stupid unnecessary crap instead of saving his money while managing to live within his means. Point is, just because you're in a lucrative field does not mean you're going to be rich. That requires a good economic sense and the ability to save and invest, something much of the US seems to lack... if more people had it we wouldn't be in this recession

That doesn't even make sense mathematically. Let's say that he started with $5 mil and made a 100% return. If he used ALL of his $180k salary to fund his investments (which clearly isn't realistic), it would take him just under 28 years to gather that much capital. Over that time span you'd likely get an even larger return, assuming 10% growth each year (which would be very ideal). More realistically though, even if he's living a fairly simply lifestyle, he'll invest no more than $75k per year. That would take 66 years to raise that much capital. Even if he kept all of his profits in his investments, that would still take a long time to get that much money on that income.

The point you're trying to make is a good one. But this doctor you know is either a very old man, made some incredible investments, or your story's bull. I'm going with the final option.

 

[echolalia16]

It seems like the medical industry has brainwashed us into believing we should sacrifice our lives for the good of others. While being a physician undoubtedly comes with a responsibility over somebody else's well-being, I'm going into this career for me first-and-foremost. I'm willing to sacrifice my 20's and .2M dollars, as well as an extra 5-10 hours a week to do what I am fascinated with, but I feel that's already justifiably more than enough. Kudos to the OP for feeling the same way.
I've met plenty of folks in a variety of specialties who don't work the average amount. Actually, now that I think about it, the only physicians I met that were over 50h/wk were in a private business, but that might be coincidence. Granted I never shadowed a general surgeon, but my point is there are plenty of options out there where you can work more family-friendly hours, and not just in dermatology despite what SDN will tell you. As some others have pointed out, it will come with sacrifices. I've met a couple docs who worked between 35-40 hours a week, but they earned less money.
Don't be intimidated by what you read online. Try shadowing a variety of docs, both in private practice and in a hospital setting and ask them about the hours they work and whether the options to work less are made available to them.

 

[theVster]

That doesn't even make sense mathematically. Let's say that he started with $5 mil and made a 100% return. If he used ALL of his $180k salary to fund his investments (which clearly isn't realistic), it would take him just under 28 years to gather that much capital. Over that time span you'd likely get an even larger return, assuming 10% growth each year (which would be very ideal). More realistically though, even if he's living a fairly simply lifestyle, he'll invest no more than $75k per year. That would take 66 years to raise that much capital. Even if he kept all of his profits in his investments, that would still take a long time to get that much money on that income.

The point you're trying to make is a good one. But this doctor you know is either a very old man, made some incredible investments, or your story's bull. I'm going with the final option.

I exaggerated the amount--it's closer to 5 million actually, and he invested unusually well... and yes he's been in practice for something like 35 years--but there's no reason you can't save upwards of 2 million. Also his practice is very small, and private practices with IM can make well close to 200-250k, especially in a partnership. And to be fair he was also in practice during a time when healthcare wasn't in as tumultuous a situation as it is now, when people definitely earned more and made more off their investments. I'm giving a very idealized case but there's no reason that with good investments you shouldn't be able to do the same in your typical IM private practice.

So no, my story is not bull--i should have elaborated a bit and given a more correct figure, but it's true. He's done very well for himself. Nice attempt on calling me out though, very mature.

 

[MonsterHospital]

I think those numbers are both wrong and likely from a long time ago. I know personally psychiatrists nationally work around 42 hours on average and make on average 155,000. I also know that EM nationally work around 35 hours and make 225k-250k. ( source AAMC and us labor)

They can also work A LOT more than that because there's a shortage on shrinks...the 42 hrs figure is probably just the work they get paid for

 

[Corpsman Up]

I read that EM attendings work only about 4-5 days a week.

EN

While EM is considered a lifestyle specialty, and for the most part it is (from what ive seen), you also have to remember that most ED's are open 24/7, no matter what. So if your department is short staffed because someone quit, or had a family emergency, etc etc...someone will have to be there to pick up the slack.

In the ED I worked in, there was a period of a few months where the docs were working non-stop, flip-flopping days and nights every other day...it was horrible. Granted, this was a military ED so it may be different in civilian world

 

[EmersonAnne]

LOL if your mother was a psychiatrist, you would know they work A LOT more than that because there's a shortage on shrinks...the 42 hrs figure is probably just the work they get paid for

Maybe it depends on who you know? I shadowed a psychiatrist who worked 40 hours or less each week.

 

[petyr_baelish]

The good news about hours is that the ACGME is re-assessing resident hours, saying that they still work too long (despite the 80-hour limit imposed in 2003) and it is detrimental to their education and ultimately their patients' well-being. (http://acgme-2010standards.org/) This isn't passed, so if people are passionate about this issue comment on that website because public opinion will be considered by policy makers. 🙂

Overall, I agree with the OP's quest to explore careers based on lifestyle choices. It is possible to love more than one career, and if you are going to narrow things down for yourself, why not start with some basic criteria. Nobody here can say if the criteria are wrong. I think families of physicians do suffer because of long hours. They may adapt, but it's tough.

 

[petyr_baelish]

I'm not saying don't work hard but I am saying better to be balanced and happy than the ULTIMATE SUPERSTAR MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL and miserable, divorced, hardly knowing your kids, etc.

Yup. But try telling that to people who want to be just like House.🙄

 

[MCAT guy]

That doesn't even make sense mathematically. Let's say that he started with $5 mil and made a 100% return. If he used ALL of his $180k salary to fund his investments (which clearly isn't realistic), it would take him just under 28 years to gather that much capital. Over that time span you'd likely get an even larger return, assuming 10% growth each year (which would be very ideal). More realistically though, even if he's living a fairly simply lifestyle, he'll invest no more than $75k per year. That would take 66 years to raise that much capital. Even if he kept all of his profits in his investments, that would still take a long time to get that much money on that income.

The point you're trying to make is a good one. But this doctor you know is either a very old man, made some incredible investments, or your story's bull. I'm going with the final option.

Investments can make money fast dude. They guy who owns the New Jersey Nets went from low millions to multibillion dollars in a few years. took a few hundred million or so and multiplied that 'ish in this crazy market. It's very possible for someone to turn 1 million into 5 million in a decade or so.

Lots of times when the market exceed 10% growth, and that's the market. If you have single stocks or more risk you can double your money pretty easily (or cut it in half).

 

[NickNaylor]

I exaggerated the amount--it's closer to 5 million actually, and he invested unusually well... and yes he's been in practice for something like 35 years--but there's no reason you can't save upwards of 2 million. Also his practice is very small, and private practices with IM can make well close to 200-250k, especially in a partnership. And to be fair he was also in practice during a time when healthcare wasn't in as tumultuous a situation as it is now, when people definitely earned more and made more off their investments. I'm giving a very idealized case but there's no reason that with good investments you shouldn't be able to do the same in your typical IM private practice.

So no, my story is not bull--i should have elaborated a bit and given a more correct figure, but it's true. He's done very well for himself. Nice attempt on calling me out though, very mature.

🙄

Again, your point is a good one. If you're prudent with your money and don't piss it away, then you can be fairly wealthy and retire at a reasonable age. Suggesting that anyone on a $180k salary can have $10 mil in assets, however, is a bit ridiculous. It's possible but requires some pretty fantastic investment smarts/luck.

 

[MCAT guy]

I exaggerated the amount--it's closer to 5 million actually, and he invested unusually well... and yes he's been in practice for something like 35 years--but there's no reason you can't save upwards of 2 million. Also his practice is very small, and private practices with IM can make well close to 200-250k, especially in a partnership. And to be fair he was also in practice during a time when healthcare wasn't in as tumultuous a situation as it is now, when people definitely earned more and made more off their investments. I'm giving a very idealized case but there's no reason that with good investments you shouldn't be able to do the same in your typical IM private practice.

So no, my story is not bull--i should have elaborated a bit and given a more correct figure, but it's true. He's done very well for himself. Nice attempt on calling me out though, very mature.

I never thought this story was far fetched. I've known many businesses people to do better.

The UFC was bought for 2 million dollars and is not worth a billion? That is in under 10 years I believe. Business can multiply dollars.

Look at Apple. If you bought apple stock 10 years ago, it was $10. Now its $250 (it was a $275 not too recently). $200,000 in apple stock 10 years ago is now worth 5 million dollars.

 

[MCAT guy]

🙄

Again, your point is a good one. If you're prudent with your money and don't piss it away, then you can be fairly wealthy and retire at a reasonable age. Suggesting that anyone on a $180k salary can have $10 mil in assets, however, is a bit ridiculous. It's possible but requires some pretty fantastic investment smarts/luck.

agreed here too. Most people won't be able to do this. Cole is right to assume a 10% return on a realistic amount of savings (10-20% max typically). 20k a year at that salary with 10% return isn't going to make millions very fast. You'd have to have risk in investments and be very astute/skillful.

 

[PharmaTope]

http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm

Check this list. Notice that Radiologists work longer hours than most of the specialties!

that data is from 2003. most attendings i see leave at 5:30-6pm every night and come in between 7-9am.

 

[deleted202457]

unemployed

This is what I was going to say.

The dr without a job would have the fewest hours I would think, but I may be wrong on that one haha.

 

[Gabby]

that data is from 2003. most attendings i see leave at 5:30-6pm every night and come in between 7-9am.

Just because they go home at that time doesn't mean they're done working. Many attending chart at home.

 

[Gabby]

🙄

Again, your point is a good one. If you're prudent with your money and don't piss it away, then you can be fairly wealthy and retire at a reasonable age. Suggesting that anyone on a $180k salary can have $10 mil in assets, however, is a bit ridiculous. It's possible but requires some pretty fantastic investment smarts/luck.

It's not ridiculous at all. The poster didn't say the 10 mil was strictly due to savings. Multi-millionaires are made through investments, not salary.

 

[lll1I1lII1lll1I]

🙄

Again, your point is a good one. If you're prudent with your money and don't piss it away, then you can be fairly wealthy and retire at a reasonable age. Suggesting that anyone on a $180k salary can have $10 mil in assets, however, is a bit ridiculous. It's possible but requires some pretty fantastic investment smarts/luck.

agreed here too. Most people won't be able to do this. Cole is right to assume a 10% return on a realistic amount of savings (10-20% max typically). 20k a year at that salary with 10% return isn't going to make millions very fast. You'd have to have risk in investments and be very astute/skillful.

At 10% interest, someone could save $40k of that $100k post-tax salary and have $10.8 million after 35 years.

Of course, saving 40% of your post-tax income is ridiculous. And 10% return is also ridiculous to expect (some might get lucky, but you should expect 6-8%).