Med school apologizes to students "triggered" by a test question

[TRPMinus]

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I'm not taking anything personally. I'm making an effort to engage everyone who responds to me in a thoughtful discussion. You made a preposterous claim unsupported by any evidence and now you're walking it back. People are free to disagree with my views, but not with undisputed facts.

You misunderstood what I meant despite the context surrounding it. I agree it is preposterous to assert that more people have died in the rioting in the last two weeks than the number of unarmed blacks dying at the hands of police *all time*. Why would someone make that argument? It's impossible to prove or disprove. Don't be petty about a simple misunderstanding.

 

[frenchyn]

why are you challenging the attendings if they're more experienced on a topic than you

Idk what type of attending they are? Are you telling me I should listen to a neurosurgeon managing tox ICU patient?

idk why this turned into a argument. Like I said above, instead of argument why can this be a learning experience? So they said the TOX doctor managed his ToX patient incorrectly and malpractice...but no one said how they would manage the patients differently? If they can give me the answer I would highly respect and would definitely apologize...but instead of that, all you do is criticizing me for questioning an attending...attending never wrong? So ENt killed the patient I saw was right?

is this medicine education culture? Listen to me because I am the attending even tho I can’t tell you why?

thank god none of my attending use this approach

 

[TRPMinus]

Awful.

Not that it makes even the slightest difference, but do you have a source before you start accusing him of crimes?

How could he have shot through the door if the police used a battering ram to break the door down before he was aware of their presence? Can I get a source on this?

No, they started by breaking down somebody's door wearing plainclothes in the middle of the night while they were sleeping. Is that more acceptable?

Then why didn't they?

What to Know About Breonna Taylor’s Death

Her killing by the police in Louisville, Ky., led to federal and state charges against officers. But one trial ended in acquittal, another in a hung jury, and a judge has dismissed some charges.

www.nytimes.com

After doing more investigating surrounding the circumstances of Taylor's death, I admit that I was wrong in my assumptions here. This does appear to be a pretty terrible situation and not one in which I would necessarily defend the officers. I'd need to read more to reach more specific conclusions.

 

[Lawpy]

Idk what type of attending they are? Are you telling me I should listen to a neurosurgeon managing tox ICU patient?

idk why this turned into a argument. Like I said above, instead of argument why can this be a learning experience? So they said the TOX doctor managed his ToX patient incorrectly and malpractice...but no one said how they would manage the patients differently? If they can give me the answer I would highly respect and would definitely apologize...but instead of that, all you do is criticizing me for questioning an attending...attending never wrong? So ENt killed the patient I saw was right?

is this medicine education culture? Listen to me because I am the attending even tho I can’t tell you why?

thank god none of my attending use this approach

They specified and even then, why would that matter if they're talking based on their experience? Like i'm reading their posts as well and it's obvious they know what they're talking about and are giving good insights, so i have no reason to question them. Attendings on SDN don't talk out of their butts when detailing their experiences and it's true in my irl experiences as well

 

[TRPMinus]

Awful.

Not that it makes even the slightest difference, but do you have a source before you start accusing him of crimes?

How could he have shot through the door if the police used a battering ram to break the door down before he was aware of their presence? Can I get a source on this?

No, they started by breaking down somebody's door wearing plainclothes in the middle of the night while they were sleeping. Is that more acceptable?

Then why didn't they?

According to several sources, walker did start shooting before he identified his target, just as the door was being smashed in. Here's one.

FACT CHECK 2.0: Separating the truth from the lies in the Breonna Taylor police shooting

We gathered the facts based on public records, official statements and interviews with witnesses and people close to the case to knock down myths.

www.courier-journal.com

It is unknown if he was involved in dealing narcotics, I'm wrong on that count.

The police did announce their presence according to the above NY times article, despite it being a no-knock warrant.

Overall to me, this looks like a really unfortunate circumstance that just went south and I'm not sure that this had obvious racial motivation. Is their evidence to the contrary? Would genuinely like to know because if so I'm scared of no-knock warrants.

 

[frenchyn]

They specified and even then, why would that matter if they're talking based on their experience? Like i'm reading their posts as well and it's obvious they know what they're talking about and are giving good insights, so i have no reason to question them. Attendings on SDN don't talk out of their butts when detailing their experiences and it's true in my irl experiences as well

How a neurosurgeon have experience with a tox IcU patients for example?

So the psych said disagree on social intubation....told to give antipsychotic...we did...did not work...so I asked how else he would manage then? No answer...

Again, they gave advices...but did any give me how they would manage this patient without intubation? No. Instead they picked on my year in med school? Propofol can be given without intubation for colonoscopy...no I said MaX out on propofol drip...not typically dosage given during colonoscopy...(really did not even think I need to explain that)...one even complained I used LoL on response...etc...what a god complex...

like I said, I don’t mean to be rude...but if you want to call a toxicologist manage his patient incorrectly or I don’t know what I am talking about...I would gladly show you my respect as well as apology if you can tell me how you would manage this patient differently without intubation...you don’t earn my respect just because you are attendings. You earn my respect because of your competency and attitude. Telling me or tox wrong and smell malpractice withiut being able to tell how you would do differently is not earning you respect...idc if you are attending...let be real....there are good and bad doctors...

 

[frenchyn]

They specified and even then, why would that matter if they're talking based on their experience? Like i'm reading their posts as well and it's obvious they know what they're talking about and are giving good insights, so i have no reason to question them. Attendings on SDN don't talk out of their butts when detailing their experiences and it's true in my irl experiences as well

I honestly don’t think it is worth the time to argue about this longer...the original issue is the psych attending disagree on social intubation by a toxicologist on a tox patient...unless you or others can give a different and better approach...which is the main point here...it is not worth to discuss about this further. We spent more time discussing about my year in med school, knowledge and attitude “lol” than the actual topic itself. If it is really my problem then trust me I would fix it. But don’t expect me to listen to an attending just because they are attending without them giving Me a reason why it is wrong and how they would do it differently...because at the end it is what is best for the patients...not where you are in training...even tho attendings most the times are right...but trust me there are doctors who killed their patients....and obviously a toxicologist know to manage tox patients better than a psych doctor. So how about focus on the patient case here as a learning opportunity vs Me?

 

[Med Ed]

The police did announce their presence according to the above NY times article, despite it being a no-knock warrant.

Also from the NY Times article:

Is the police account disputed?
Yes, hotly. Ms. Taylor’s relatives and their lawyers say that the police never identified themselves before entering — despite their claims. They also say that Mr. Walker was licensed to carry a gun.

And Mr. Walker, 27, has said that he feared for his life and only fired in self-defense, believing that someone was trying to break into the home.

“He didn’t know these were police officers, and they found no drugs in the apartment. None,” said Rob Eggert, Mr. Walker’s lawyer. “He was scared for his life, and her life.”

In a 911 call just after the shots were fired, Mr. Walker told a dispatcher that “somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend."

The police’s incident report contained multiple errors. It listed Ms. Taylor’s injuries as “none,” even though she had been shot at least eight times, and indicated that police had not forced their way into the apartment — though they used a battering ram to break the door open.

 

[Lawpy]

I honestly don’t think it is worth the time to argue about this longer...the original issue is the psych attending disagree on social intubation by a toxicologist on a tox patient...unless you or others can give a different and better approach...which is the main point here...it is not worth to discuss about this further. We spent more time discussing about my year in med school, knowledge and attitude “lol” than the actual topic itself. If it is really my problem then trust me I would fix it. But don’t expect me to listen to an attending just because they are attending without them giving Me a reason why it is wrong and how they would do it differently...because at the end it is what is best for the patients...not where you are in training...even tho attendings most the times are right...but trust me there are doctors who killed their patients....and obviously a toxicologist know to manage tox patients better than a psych doctor. So how about focus on the patient case here as a learning opportunity vs Me?

I agree we're well off topic, but i was mainly questioning the weird attending criticism that was going on, when their point was to tell you to be careful on how you present yourself to patients rather than saying you'll intubate them to calm them down, which came across as offensive

 

[Espressso]

If you lie down with dogs, you might get fleas. If you live with a drug dealer, I’m willing to go out on a limb and say your chance of being involved in violence is higher than average. Ms. Taylor didn’t deserve to die and while it is sad, how do you blame the police for returning fire after being fired upon? People defending themselves have the responsibility to identify their target prior to firing. Average people don’t just start shooting through doors. The police are justified in returning fire through the door because they were first fired upon. Notice how the police didn’t just start out by shooting through the door? Also the police are required to announce their presence.

If police try to break into my house... in the middle of the night... and not shout out who they are and why they're there... You best believe at the very least I will be reaching for my personal weapon. As far as her boyfriend goes, he's defending himself and his girlfriend from a trespasser. To be frank, it's hilariously sad that the NRA isn't all over this case. I mean, this is a classic stand your ground type of scenario in my eyes.


EDIT: just saw your recent comments, oops. But yeah, completely horrible case. I don't know one good argument for a no-knock warrant by the police. That seems insane to me.

 

[Espressso]

Also from the NY Times article:

Is the police account disputed?
Yes, hotly. Ms. Taylor’s relatives and their lawyers say that the police never identified themselves before entering — despite their claims. They also say that Mr. Walker was licensed to carry a gun.

And Mr. Walker, 27, has said that he feared for his life and only fired in self-defense, believing that someone was trying to break into the home.

“He didn’t know these were police officers, and they found no drugs in the apartment. None,” said Rob Eggert, Mr. Walker’s lawyer. “He was scared for his life, and her life.”

In a 911 call just after the shots were fired, Mr. Walker told a dispatcher that “somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend."

The police’s incident report contained multiple errors. It listed Ms. Taylor’s injuries as “none,” even though she had been shot at least eight times, and indicated that police had not forced their way into the apartment — though they used a battering ram to break the door open.

And they found no drugs in the home. Unbelievable. That kind of force, busting into a house for a drug possession raid? Why is that necessary?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

They specified and even then, why would that matter if they're talking based on their experience? Like i'm reading their posts as well and it's obvious they know what they're talking about and are giving good insights, so i have no reason to question them. Attendings on SDN don't talk out of their butts when detailing their experiences and it's true in my irl experiences as well

That's generally true. We tend to stick with what we know, likely because we're very aware of our limitations by this point.

 

[deleted480308]

That's generally true. We tend to stick with what we know, likely because we're very aware of our limitations by this point.

Agreed, it takes very few eff ups during residency to teach you to humble yourself a bit in terms of knowing your scope

 

[frenchyn]

I agree we're well off topic, but i was mainly questioning the weird attending criticism that was going on, when their point was to tell you to be careful on how you present yourself to patients rather than saying you'll intubate them to calm them down, which came across as offensive

Well if I come across that way, I apologize...I just wanna to learn here too...if a psych questioned a tox doctor on a tox patient and mentioned “malpractice” without giving a better approach...I can’t just blindly listen to him lol...there are bad and good doctors I highly respect attending but let be honest we all have more respect to the “good” hence likely to refer patients to vs the “bad” one...and because he could not tell me how he manage this patient yet...I had to question...n sometime it come across as RUDE through words and online forum like this...

I have those who I would let them treating my families and those who I would not let them touch my dogs...until one prove he/she is competent, trust me I don’t care who they are (even attending) I would question them all I want...I see mistakes happen Before and I will not let that happen to my patients or families...the unfortunate side of medicine.

 

[bananafish94]

According to several sources, walker did start shooting before he identified his target, just as the door was being smashed in. Here's one.

FACT CHECK 2.0: Separating the truth from the lies in the Breonna Taylor police shooting

We gathered the facts based on public records, official statements and interviews with witnesses and people close to the case to knock down myths.

www.courier-journal.com

It is unknown if he was involved in dealing narcotics, I'm wrong on that count.

The police did announce their presence according to the above NY times article, despite it being a no-knock warrant.

Overall to me, this looks like a really unfortunate circumstance that just went south and I'm not sure that this had obvious racial motivation. Is their evidence to the contrary? Would genuinely like to know because if so I'm scared of no-knock warrants.

The police claim that they announced their entry as Med Ed said but there's ample reason to doubt that - not the least of which is that their account has been contradicted by multiple witnesses. Also, I don't really think any reasonable person would shoot at police officers who announced their presence. As for the actual shooting, I'm about as far from a gun guy as you'll find but you'd be hard pressed to find a better justification for self defense than somebody breaking down your front door in the middle of the night.

 

[PapaGuava]

Since the conversation has strayed away from the original topic, we have decided to close this thread. However, I wanted to thank those who have remained civil when speaking about this delicate issue.