Med school EASIER to get into these days?

[nighthawk3]

So a lovely neighbor of mine insists that med school is EASIER to get into than it was 25 years ago. Additionally, it is EASIER for white males to get in than it was 25 years ago. I'm sure both are wrong, but I don't have the time to find good data on this. Anyone have any tips on where to look? Thanks....

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[MotherJones]

Absolutely not. MCAT scores keep inching upward as more and more people are drawn to medicine for obvious reasons i.e. job security, pay, ect. Almost anything competitive will get more competitive as the years go on.

 

[JonnyG]

So a lovely neighbor of mine insists that med school is EASIER to get into than it was 25 years ago. Additionally, it is EASIER for white males to get in than it was 25 years ago. I'm sure both are wrong, but I don't have the time to find good data on this. Anyone have any tips on where to look? Thanks....

Depends on how you look at it but for the most part that is an accurate statement. In the past there were many more applicants per spot. There are also more spots available. The MCAT underwent a scoring change in the early 90s so hard to compare them.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

So a lovely neighbor of mine insists that med school is EASIER to get into than it was 25 years ago. Additionally, it is EASIER for white males to get in than it was 25 years ago. I'm sure both are wrong, but I don't have the time to find good data on this. Anyone have any tips on where to look? Thanks....

I'm sure you could get some historical info on the ama site -- I think I remember seeing some kind of graph showing a general increase in MCAT/gpa numbers on there somewhere. You've also got the increase in spots (mostly because of all the new DO schools), so it's probably a wash.

 

[Jack Swift]

Almost anything competitive will get more competitive as the years go on.

agreed

 

[somemaybedoc]

So a lovely neighbor of mine insists that med school is EASIER to get into than it was 25 years ago. Additionally, it is EASIER for white males to get in than it was 25 years ago. I'm sure both are wrong, but I don't have the time to find good data on this. Anyone have any tips on where to look? Thanks....

I would just let it go. They may be right, they may be wrong; but either way and no matter what evidence you come up with the oldies are loath to admit anything is harder now.

 

[45408]

In terms of numbers of applicants vs. numbers of available medical student spots, it is easier. However, applicants have been scoring higher on the MCAT, doing more extracurriculars, etc. The pool may be getting smaller, but it's also getting deeper.

 

[werd]

yeah - how "hard" it is to get into med school is often dependent on the # of applicants vs. the rather constant # of spots. there's about 16,000 spots and 30-45k applicants each year. certainly, it's easier to get in when there are x2 as many applicants as spots vs. x3. the number of applicants varies year to year and often swings with how the economy is doing.

 

[bubbachuck]

Absolutely not. MCAT scores keep inching upward as more and more people are drawn to medicine for obvious reasons i.e. job security, pay, ect. Almost anything competitive will get more competitive as the years go on.

Higher standardized test scores do not necessarily mean a brighter class over the years since it is a standardized test.

People are drawn towards medicine when the economy is bad because it is a stable job. Less people are drawn when the economy is good.

Also, the last sentence is too general. There are many things that used to be competitive that are not anymore...

yeah - how "hard" it is to get into med school is often dependent on the # of applicants vs. the rather constant # of spots. there's about 16,000 spots and 30-45k applicants each year. certainly, it's easier to get in when there are x2 as many applicants as spots vs. x3. the number of applicants varies year to year and often swings with how the economy is doing.

in general yes, but as stated above by TheProwler, the quality of the students has to be considered too. i'd rather apply in a pool with 30,000 students with poor test scores, no ECs, etc. than a pool of 20,000 superstars.

 

[shivasHeroLike]

actually its getting difficult

our population is growing & extra curricular is gettin stressed upon more and more (gunner-attitude).

all this = more competition

 

[makeitstop]

I get the same crap from my uncle. He applied to med school and didn't get in, and whenever I study around him, he likes to comment on how he knows everything I'm studying (he's a biology teacher), and how he would get in if he applied now. I don't think you can really determine whether or not it's easier to get in now...but I think it's definitely harder once you get in than it used to be. Old-skool docs can whine all they want about the new work-hour restrictions, but come on, did they have to learn all this biochem, genetics, cell molec, etc?? Had half of it even been discovered 20-30 years ago?? I think not

 

[megadon]

I get the same crap from my uncle. He applied to med school and didn't get in, and whenever I study around him, he likes to comment on how he knows everything I'm studying (he's a biology teacher), and how he would get in if he applied now. I don't think you can really determine whether or not it's easier to get in now...but I think it's definitely harder once you get in than it used to be. Old-skool docs can whine all they want about the new work-hour restrictions, but come on, did they have to learn all this biochem, genetics, cell molec, etc?? Had half of it even been discovered 20-30 years ago?? I think not

I blame the human genome project, without their effort to not completely figure out everything, our job would be much easier. Now the issue is, is it mono genomic, epigonemic, what does that mean, etc. Bottom line, you're sick, is there anything we can do for you.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

I believe there was fear of a doctor glut in the early 1980's. There was a ton of applicants and it was very difficult to get into and there was a worry there'll be too many doctors (didn't pan out). After that, the salaries of doctors trended downward and stayed lower until recently they've trended back up again. I believe if the trend continues, we may be closing in on a similar level of the difficulty.

 

[RokChalkJayhawk]

I get the same crap from my uncle. He applied to med school and didn't get in, and whenever I study around him, he likes to comment on how he knows everything I'm studying (he's a biology teacher), and how he would get in if he applied now. I don't think you can really determine whether or not it's easier to get in now...but I think it's definitely harder once you get in than it used to be. Old-skool docs can whine all they want about the new work-hour restrictions, but come on, did they have to learn all this biochem, genetics, cell molec, etc?? Had half of it even been discovered 20-30 years ago?? I think not

Hah... trust me they still had plenty to study. There were also still 24 hours in a day, 7 days in a week, 365 days per year.

 

[bubbachuck]

we'd all like to think that it has gotten harder because it makes us feel better and smarter, but it's not as black and white as that. physicians have always been esteemed members of society. while they may not have had to do ECs and shadowing, they likely made up for it by studying more. After all, studying was probably harder back then without internet access at their fingertips. As RokChalkJayhawk said, there is only a finite amount of time per day.

if we really wanted to answer OP's question, we would have to define what EASY really means. As in, just comparing acceptance rates or is it more ECs required, etc.

OP, as for your uncle's white males comment, he was most likely referring to the Civil Rights movement, which was more than 25 years ago.

i know AAMC keeps track of stats like acceptance rate and race but I don't know how far back.

 

[RokChalkJayhawk]

we'd all like to think that it has gotten harder because it makes us feel better and smarter, but it's not as black and white as that. physicians have always been esteemed members of society. while they may not have had to do ECs and shadowing, they likely made up for it by studying more. After all, studying was probably harder back then without internet access at their fingertips. As RokChalkJayhawk said, there is only a finite amount of time per day.

if we really wanted to answer OP's question, we would have to define what EASY really means. As in, just comparing acceptance rates or is it more ECs required, etc.

Hah. Not to contradict you bubba, but most SDNers would say the internet hurts rather than helps. I know that on Sundays in the Fall I have to check NFL.com every few minutes when I'm at the library.

 

[MSKalltheway]

I talk about stuff like this with my father from time to time, and its actually his feeling that its more difficult if anything these days...times have changed tons since the prior generation. I personally dont care whether its actually more difficult or not, but I like to take my pops stance when he says "everything gets harder as time goes on". Even if it is easier to get into med school these days, its DEFINITELY more difficult to be a physician compared to the past. You can argue med school admissions, but in practice its way more difficult for a variety of reasons. No one can argue that.

 

[Law2Doc]

In terms of numbers of applicants vs. numbers of available medical student spots, it is easier. However, applicants have been scoring higher on the MCAT, doing more extracurriculars, etc. The pool may be getting smaller, but it's also getting deeper.

Agree - it's an illusion. A higher percentage of the applicant pool gets in today, but there is much more self selection and advising making that pool smaller, and more routes people go to improve stats (postbac, SMP) rather than just wing it. It's hard to deny that scores/stats of matriculants are higher today than in years past.

 

[MossPoh]

So a lovely neighbor of mine insists that med school is EASIER to get into than it was 25 years ago. Additionally, it is EASIER for white males to get in than it was 25 years ago. I'm sure both are wrong, but I don't have the time to find good data on this. Anyone have any tips on where to look? Thanks....

I have a hard time believing that. The implementation of the digital stuff means that more people canvas the country looking for spots. My dad talked about how in his day, you only applied to three or four schools on average. Many applied to only two (my dad).. I think the average GPA has gone up for applications, but I also think part of that is because of grade inflation.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think the average GPA has gone up for applications, but I also think part of that is because of grade inflation.

Grade inflation goes up and down but hardly is a new thing. If you do google searches, you find find that Harvard undergrad got a lot of bad press in the EARLY 90's for a history of grade inflation, culminating with a graduating class where 90+% of the class graduated "with honors", which proved to be an embarrassment to the school and resulted in substantial revamping of their grading policy. If anything, some schools are more sensitive to this now than when the OPs neighbor would have been applying.

 

[makeitstop]

we'd all like to think that it has gotten harder because it makes us feel better and smarter, but it's not as black and white as that. physicians have always been esteemed members of society.

Haha...yes...physicians HAVE always been esteemed members of society...of course...this esteem was not always warranted. If I recall, up until the last century, medicine was still basing treatment on the four humours, and bled people to get out the infection (along with other nasty, ineffective rituals). I would say the advancement of knowledge has made things increasingly difficult ever since.

 

[SeventhSon]

i find it hard to believe that getting into med school is easier today than it was 25 years ago.

The simple reason? It is undeniably probably FIVE times harder to get into college today than it was back then. These people arent just disappearing after undergrad. I think it is already Wayy harder to get into college than it was when I applied 6 years ago.

 

[Schaden Freud]

This analysis released by the AAMC tracks among other things the ratios of applicants to matriculants since 1970. While it does seem to vary quite a bit, there is no general trend in any direction.

Application surges occurred in the mid-1970's and mid-1990's, when the ratio of applicants to matriculants approached 3:1.

The nadir occurred in 1988 when the applicants to matriculants ratio fell to 1.7:1.

Right now we're a bit higher than 2:1.

http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/aibvol7_no3.pdf

With regard to your neighbor's contention, the data seem to show that right now it's a bit harder to get into med school than it was 25 years ago in 1982.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Old-skool docs can whine all they want about the new work-hour restrictions, but come on, did they have to learn all this biochem, genetics, cell molec, etc?? Had half of it even been discovered 20-30 years ago?? I think not

Right - and who were those people doing the research & discovery, huh? Those very same "old skool docs".
To call those 'old skool docs' whiners before you've done anything for the growth of the profession is well, pretty immature. And premature.

 

[The Leader]

You guys are forgetting the obvious. Many schools are now receiving over 10K applications for 150 spots. Did I mention the self sorting that the Pre-Med advisors do. Also it was posted earlier, but would you rather compete against 30K people, or 20K undergrad superstars. Believe it people, things are more competitive in every aspect of our society. Today's applicants need some good ECs, besides the GPA, MCAT. We could build 10 more medical schools, and guess what it would still be super competitive.

 

[cfdavid]

Absolutely not. MCAT scores keep inching upward as more and more people are drawn to medicine for obvious reasons i.e. job security, pay, ect. Almost anything competitive will get more competitive as the years go on.

I agree. I know a LOT of 50-something business owners that had very good opportunities to start and GROW their companies when they were in their 20s and 30s. These guys made a lot of money over the years, but will tell you how much harder it is to make a buck these days. They're working harder, with more competition, and for less margin.

Not to be pessimistic, but recently there was a report (some "think tank" in DC I think) that stated what seems obvious. MOST men in their 30s aren't doing as well as their fathers. This is a first in America's history (aside from the Great Depression etc.).

 

[makeitstop]

Right - and who were those people doing the research & discovery, huh? Those very same "old skool docs".
To call those 'old skool docs' whiners before you've done anything for the growth of the profession is well, pretty immature. And premature.

Woa there, killer, let me just clear one thing up. I called them whiners because they like to say we have it so much easier because of the new work hour laws -- read: they whine that they had it so much harder. I mean no disrespect...I'm just saying that we have a lot more facts and worthless trivia to learn than they did back in the day, regardless of who researched and discovered said facts since that time. Know what I mean, chief?

 

[gujuDoc]

So a lovely neighbor of mine insists that med school is EASIER to get into than it was 25 years ago. Additionally, it is EASIER for white males to get in than it was 25 years ago. I'm sure both are wrong, but I don't have the time to find good data on this. Anyone have any tips on where to look? Thanks....

I would think it was easier for white males to get in 25 years ago then now because back then they didn't preach this diversity stuff.

What made it harder 25 years ago was that everything was purely based on numbers and ECs and whole applicant business that is preached in modern day applications were not an issue 25 years ago. 25 years ago the biggest thing was MCAT and GPA and nothing else really counted. In this day and age, someone with a 25 MCAT who may be from a foreign country and have tons of good ECs might have a bigger shot then 25 years ago.

In this day and age, someone who had a poor GPA but did years of postbac and/or SMP style programs might have a shot if they show they have changed. 25 years ago that might not have been the case.

In this day and age, a lot more women, minorities, and older nontraditional folks are going into medicine. 25 years ago, you might not have seen that many people out of the normal traditional college student aged kid applying straight away after 3 years of undergrad.

Now for what makes it tougher in many respects then the past. Well because they look at the whole applicant you have to show that you can get the numbers and still be well rounded and do lots of other things. There are more subjective matters in the admissions process and you must be able to show them the things they want to see. Furthermore, there are an increasing number of people applying every year and with the greater focus on increasing diversity and number of women or traditionally ignored groups, you will see them taking into acct other factors besides just grades and MCAT scores and that will make it tougher to compete in some ways.

 

[gujuDoc]

we'd all like to think that it has gotten harder because it makes us feel better and smarter, but it's not as black and white as that. physicians have always been esteemed members of society. while they may not have had to do ECs and shadowing, they likely made up for it by studying more. After all, studying was probably harder back then without internet access at their fingertips. As RokChalkJayhawk said, there is only a finite amount of time per day.

if we really wanted to answer OP's question, we would have to define what EASY really means. As in, just comparing acceptance rates or is it more ECs required, etc.

OP, as for your uncle's white males comment, he was most likely referring to the Civil Rights movement, which was more than 25 years ago.

i know AAMC keeps track of stats like acceptance rate and race but I don't know how far back.

Yes but while they didn't have the internet or technology we have today, they also didn't have much of the information we have today. I think one of the things that keeps making medical education get tougher and tougher is the constant additional stuff that gets added to the curricula as new research discoveries are made.

The one thing they really did have much harder then anyone training currently would be residency training because they had 120 hour work weeks vs. 80 hr. work weeks.

Two things to note about that. 120 hours is literally 5 full 24 hour days. That's just psychotic. To have to do this for 4-6 years is even worse. Secondly, that's 3 times the average person's work week. While 80 hours is still tough its a much better deal then the 120 hours they had to work.

That said, I don't think they should complain and try to abuse residents just because its what they went through. That's the sad mentality that many people carry. They believe if they should have to go through something then someone else should have to do the same even if it isn't necessarily what's right. I saw this recently when a girl said that the stupid things they had to do in RUSH for her sorority should be inflicted on others just because she did it. its just pure stupid but whatever that is the mentality of others and its hard to change it.

 

[neoncandle]

Last I checked, a lot of residencies aren't really complying with the 80 hr rule. I really don't think anyone should be complaining - old folks or us newbies. Both are immature. They don't have to deal with some of the stuff we do, and visa versa. Only time will tell who "had it easier." Personally I don't think it matters. All of us just need to get through and do well under the current system, and ignore the rest.

 

[Law2Doc]

Last I checked, a lot of residencies aren't really complying with the 80 hr rule. I really don't think anyone should be complaining - old folks or us newbies. Both are immature. They don't have to deal with some of the stuff we do, and visa versa. Only time will tell who "had it easier." Personally I don't think it matters. All of us just need to get through and do well under the current system, and ignore the rest.

Um, this thread is on whether admissions are easier, not whether residency is...

 

[gujuDoc]

Um, this thread is on whether admissions are easier, not whether residency is...

Don't get mad at neocandle. I'm the one to blame for getting off track. I apologize.

But as I said before, in regards to the original topic.....

There are a lot more subjective factors involved and a lot more applicants. That probably is making it harder.

But now a days academics aren't everything so those people who might have screwed up in their youth but come back and kick butt academically as a postbac/nontrad with good everything else have a better chance then the days when the only real med students were traditional students and the concept of the nontrad didn't exist.

 

[45408]

Right - and who were those people doing the research & discovery, huh? Those very same "old skool docs".
To call those 'old skool docs' whiners before you've done anything for the growth of the profession is well, pretty immature. And premature.

Those old school docs weren't big-gun researchers when they were in med school: they were med students. You're throwing oranges into a discussion about apples. The fact remains, when my senior anatomy professor was in medical school, they didn't even know that DNA was a double helix (he even finished his residency before they knew), let alone all the minute details I had to learn about it.

 

[SeventhSon]

Right - and who were those people doing the research & discovery, huh? Those very same "old skool docs".
To call those 'old skool docs' whiners before you've done anything for the growth of the profession is well, pretty immature. And premature.

they weren't old school docs, they were molecular biologists. And get the chip off your shoulder man.