Med school not as bad as everyone says?

[longhaul3]

Each of us only has our own experience to draw from. Every med school class has a wider range of intellectual ability than most people acknowledge. If you are smart and a good test taker, it probably will not be that difficult for you. There is nothing wrong with doing minimal studying if you're progressing as you want to.

Many people are making a distinction between wanting to do something competitive and just wanting to float down the river and claiming you have to really hoof it (12+ hours a day? really?) to be in the top X percent of your class. There are plenty of people who will graduate at the top of the class, make AOA, score 260, and match wherever they want without having to do that. Most of us are unwilling to admit that when they give or read advice about succeeding in med school.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

1.) That robust basic science knowledge base comes from MCAT, GPA standards on admission.
2.) We live in a digital world where these facts are out our fingertips if we need them.

Lol wut? I’ve learned so much more basic science about medicine that is clinically relevant in med school than I ever learned in undergrad. I majored in math ffs. My friend majored in musical theatre. We don’t need to know stuff at the level of a biochemist, but we definitely need to learn the basic sciences behind disease, pharm, etc. If you don’t at least have an exposure to it and have seen it at some point, it doesn’t matter if you have an uptodate subscription because you won’t even know what to look up or possibly that you even have to look something up.

That is absolutely one of the differences between physicians and midlevels. I have a friend who just graduated PA school. I just finished preclinicals in med school, and the difference in the depth of our knowledge is obvious. And it’s not because I’m really smart and she’s not. She’s probably smarter than me. She just didn’t get taught it.

 

[Redpancreas]

Lol wut? I’ve learned so much more basic science about medicine that is clinically relevant in med school than I ever learned in undergrad. I majored in math ffs. My friend majored in musical theatre. We don’t need to know stuff at the level of a biochemist, but we definitely need to learn the basic sciences behind disease, pharm, etc. If you don’t at least have an exposure to it and have seen it at some point, it doesn’t matter if you have an uptodate subscription because you won’t even know what to look up or possibly that you even have to look something up.

That is absolutely one of the differences between physicians and midlevels. I have a friend who just graduated PA school. I just finished preclinicals in med school, and the difference in the depth of our knowledge is obvious. And it’s not because I’m really smart and she’s not. She’s probably smarter than me. She just didn’t get taught it.

Why?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Why?

You don’t know why it would be helpful to know the pathophysiology of diseases or the pharmacology of the drugs you prescribe? That lack of knowledge is why people getting treated by psych NPs are on multiple stimulants and a benzo or on an SSRI with bipolar disorder. Or why an emergency department NP gave a girl with a PE adenosine, diazepam, and metoprolol and killed her.

 

[longhaul3]

Lol wut? I’ve learned so much more basic science about medicine that is clinically relevant in med school than I ever learned in undergrad. I majored in math ffs. My friend majored in musical theatre. We don’t need to know stuff at the level of a biochemist, but we definitely need to learn the basic sciences behind disease, pharm, etc. If you don’t at least have an exposure to it and have seen it at some point, it doesn’t matter if you have an uptodate subscription because you won’t even know what to look up or possibly that you even have to look something up.

That is absolutely one of the differences between physicians and midlevels. I have a friend who just graduated PA school. I just finished preclinicals in med school, and the difference in the depth of our knowledge is obvious. And it’s not because I’m really smart and she’s not. She’s probably smarter than me. She just didn’t get taught it.

I agree. I was thinking about this the other day when I got the covid vaccine. I have just about zero interest in immunology and zero day-to-day exposure to it, and I hadn't been paying any attention to the science news, but the concept of an mRNA vaccine is immediately accessible to me because of all the step 1 stuff I learned back in the day. People at other levels of training do not have this kind of facility in understanding any particular area of medicine (we have "neurosurgery" PAs/NPs who did a "residency" or "fellowship" and don't understand the first thing about hyponatremia), but for us it extends across the spectrum.

 

[Redpancreas]

You don’t know why it would be helpful to know the pathophysiology of diseases or the pharmacology of the drugs you prescribe? That lack of knowledge is why people getting treated by psych NPs are on multiple stimulants and a benzo or on an SSRI with bipolar disorder. Or why an emergency department NP gave a girl with a PE adenosine, diazepam, and metoprolol and killed her.

I think Pharmacology is mandatory so we can understand neuropharmacology, serotonergic toxicity, and the ddx of physiologic tachycardia but do not think Biochemistry is necessarily a prerequisite of that.

 

[Kardio]

Also, I don't think research by any means fills the void left by Step 1.

My point is that many students focus their attention on whatever PDs want to see on ERAS. Without Step 1, rank (sometimes) and research are what remain. I don’t see the clinical lectures getting much more love.

Why?

The same reasons we don’t have a 4 month technical school to train people to perform electrophys procedure.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think Pharmacology is mandatory but do not think Biochemistry is necessarily a prerequisite of that.

Biochem doesn’t have to be the way it is taught in undergrad or grad school. Our biochem curriculum is extremely clinical. Many of the lectures focused on clinical cases, and while we learned all the pathways and enzymes and ****, they weren’t really tested on unless it had some kind of clinical relevance.

 

[Redpancreas]

Biochem doesn’t have to be the way it is taught in undergrad or grad school. Our biochem curriculum is extremely clinical. Many of the lectures focused on clinical cases, and while we learned all the pathways and enzymes and ****, they weren’t really tested on unless it had some kind of clinical relevance.

Well that's a big discrepancy from my experience. At my medical school we had the same textbook and similar lectures as the 400 level biochemistry course I took as a junior in undergraduate.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Well that's a big discrepancy from my experience. At my medical school we had the same textbook and similar lectures as the 400 level biochemistry course I took as a junior in undergraduate.

Yeah that’s stupid.

 

[Redpancreas]

My point is that many students focus their attention on whatever PDs want to see on ERAS. Without Step 1, rank (sometimes) and research are what remain. I don’t see the clinical lectures getting much more love.



The same reasons we don’t have a 4 month technical school to train people to perform electrophys procedure.

Without Step 1, there will be Step 2 and clerkship grades each of which already outstrips the importance of anything below Step 1 currently and therefore should be the next to fill the void.

You don't need a graduate level biochemistry education or even a working understanding of cardiac ion channels which I even thought would be relevant to do atrial ablations when I was learning about the funny channel in cardiac physiology in M1 and thought I wanted to be a Cardiologist. You need to know clinical medicine, how to do the procedure, and what complications can arise, what to do to monitor those, and how to treat those.

FTR hope I'm not offending anyone. Feel like this is an interesting discussion.

 

[Osteosaur]

It is and it isn't. you still have time to get things done and live life. I mean I usually studied 10am to 6pm, maybe from 9-10 if I was behind on reviews, and always had time to videogames/TV/hobbies. I found the first two years harder than work because there is no real boundary between studying and home
life. You're never done studying and there is always that extra hour you can/need to put in.

There is just a significant component of stress/guilt/competition the culture puts in. You need to outperform your peers. One bad exam and suddenly you're in the doghouse and wondering if you deserve to be in school at all.

And there is just the mandatory wellness garbage, "service learning", and so on.

Third year is better as once you're home you're home like a regular person going to work.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There is just a significant component of stress/guilt/competition

This. It’s so much easier if you can avoid the competition culture. Not knowing how anyone else is doing and not having anyone talk about it or ask you is wonderful.

 

[slowthai]

Many people are making a distinction between wanting to do something competitive and just wanting to float down the river and claiming you have to really hoof it (12+ hours a day? really?) to be in the top X percent of your class. There are plenty of people who will graduate at the top of the class, make AOA, score 260, and match wherever they want without having to do that. Most of us are unwilling to admit that when they give or read advice about succeeding in med school.

I'm of average intelligence and I have to work harder than most to get to where I want to be. There, lol. I've said it before and I'll say it again haha. There's no shame in it tbh. These are the cards I was dealt. Some of us just have to graft.

I deliberately excluded people on the extreme end because I was talking about the average student's experience.

 

[odyssey2]

First two years aren’t too bad, third year is worse than you think, fourth year is heaven.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Some of us just have to graft.

What are you, British?

 

[jambro]

It is and it isn't. you still have time to get things done and live life. I mean I usually studied 10am to 6pm, maybe from 9-10 if I was behind on reviews, and always had time to videogames/TV/hobbies. I found the first two years harder than work because there is no real boundary between studying and home
life. You're never done studying and there is always that extra hour you can/need to put in.

There is just a significant component of stress/guilt/competition the culture puts in. You need to outperform your peers. One bad exam and suddenly you're in the doghouse and wondering if you deserve to be in school at all.

Completely agree. I think it's important to understand how you as an individual handle stress and the amount of work on our plate. Like you said, there's always something more you can study, get better at review, the need for competition and to feel like you're the "best". I think some people find it easier than others to relax, call it quits when you've done "enough" and that goes a huge way in preventing burnout. In med school the line between the stress that's necessary or self-inflicted is pretty blurry, I think, and therein lies the rub.

 

[slowthai]

This. It’s so much easier if you can avoid the competition culture. Not knowing how anyone else is doing and not having anyone talk about it or ask you is wonderful.

Seriously. Whenever someone would ask me how an exam went, it'd just be "Fine". It's the perfect non-answer and then everyone moves on. And I honestly couldn't care less about how other people are doing. How am I doing? That's all that matters.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Seriously. Whenever someone would ask me how an exam went, it'd just be "Fine". It's the perfect non-answer and then everyone moves on. And I honestly couldn't care less about how other people are doing. How am I doing? That's all that matters.

Yeah, most people in my class don’t even ask more than what did you think like right after it’s over. No one that I socialize with asks about grades.

 

[slowthai]

What are you, British?

Haha, maybe

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Haha, maybe

View attachment 325490

This confuses me.

 

[Kardio]

Without Step 1, there will be Step 2 and clerkship grades each of which already outstrips the importance of anything below Step 1 currently and therefore should be the next to fill the void.

Pretty sure you made a point earlier about how students will be able to focus on clinically oriented preclerkship lectures. I’m replying to that claim/assumption - though I may not have quoted it from you.

You don't need a graduate level biochemistry education or even a working understanding of cardiac ion channels which I even thought would be relevant to do atrial ablations when I was learning about the funny channel in cardiac physiology in M1 and thought I wanted to be a Cardiologist. You need to know clinical medicine, how to do the procedure, and what complications can arise, what to do to monitor those, and how to treat those.

Sure - the sum of knowledge and experience accumulated over a decade of education and training isn’t going into each ablation case. I also grant that the way medical education currently exists (or even medicine as an institution) isn’t necessarily the optimal way to get the job done.

It seems like you’re arguing against medicine as a technocracy. Why not just breakdown all doctor interventions into their components and create technical schools in their name?

 

[Redpancreas]

Pretty sure you made a point earlier about how students will be able to focus on clinically oriented preclerkship lectures. I’m replying to that claim/assumption - though I may not have quoted it from you.



Sure - the sum of knowledge and experience accumulated over a decade of education and training isn’t going into each ablation case. I also grant that the way medical education currently exists (or even medicine as an institution) isn’t necessarily the optimal way to get the job done.

It seems like you’re arguing against medicine as a technocracy. Why not just breakdown all doctor interventions into their components and create technical schools in their name?

I don't think that medical schools can do clinical oriented pre-clerkship material unless there's a clinician educator who both works as a teaching faculty and practices medicine while simultaneously spending time in medical education. Many school just don't have that guy (or lady) because they're not willing to pay the person even though it would do wonders for the next generation of their medical students.

I don't think the sum of pre-clinical knowledge accumulated over a time is going into any ablation case. Some clinical experience is. I agree that the way medical education exists isn't optimal. I can see where you got the anti-technocracy vibe, but I am not saying we need to "trade-school" every procedure either because that will overwhelm the system. At the end of the day someone needs to incur liability and there needs to be a human interacting and explaining to patients what is going on. That is one of the reasons why physicians get paid.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You don't need a graduate level biochemistry education or even a working understanding of cardiac ion channels which I even thought would be relevant to do atrial ablations when I was learning about the funny channel in cardiac physiology in M1 and thought I wanted to be a Cardiologist. You need to know clinical medicine, how to do the procedure, and what complications can arise, what to do to monitor those, and how to treat those.

I disagree that a basic science knowledge isn’t important. I have literally seen irl midlevels miss stuff because they didn’t have the foundational knowledge to think outside their algorithmic practice pattern.

Do you need a graduate level knowledge of biochem? Of course not. But not having at least a foundational understanding of why just makes you an NP with a more expensive degree.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't think the sum of pre-clinical knowledge accumulated over a time is going into any ablation case.

Yeah sorry I will not be going to the cardiologist who can’t even explain to me what the procedure is doing and fixing at a deeper level than mE bUrN uR hEaRt It GeT bEtTeR

 

[slowthai]

This confuses me.

Haha, what's confusing?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Haha, what's confusing?

Why bring British would warrant an evil grinch gif or why a Brit would be in an American school or why a non-Brit would be using British slang

 

[Redpancreas]

Yeah sorry I will not be going to the cardiologist who can’t even explain to me what the procedure is doing and fixing at a deeper level than mE bUrN uR hEaRt It GeT bEtTeR

I think to a large extent it is like that. There may some biological theory for what they're doing that gets "et. al'ed" in the introduction sections of papers describing these procedures but these electrophysiologist's bottom line is the clinical efficacy data of the procedure and then learning how to perform the procedure and managing its complications.

 

[slowthai]

Why bring British would warrant an evil grinch gif or why a Brit would be in an American school or why a non-Brit would be using British slang

The gif was supposed to be mischievous. As in, maybe I'm British, maybe I'm not. Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions. At any rate, my job is done here.

I'm joking lol. I've got family over there and they have definitely rubbed off on me haha

 

[MDMechEngr]

Just my opinon, but Step 1 P/F is a good move. Steps should never be the center of medical school universe. PDs should be looking at everything, uncluding how well you do on preclinical and clinical performance, research, pubs, leadership, etc. I am giving my preclinical performance 100% and doing research and leadership at the same time. Aiming for the highest bar (AOA) and if I miss, I will still be okay God willing. I am not going to do a half-ass job to get by preclinical so I can focus on steps. At the end of the day, one shot at Step 2 is all that is needed.

 

[frenchyn]

Just my opinon, but Step 1 P/F is a good move. Steps should never be the center of medical school universe. PDs should be looking at everything, uncluding how well you do on preclinical and clinical performance, research, pubs, leadership, etc. I am giving my preclinical performance 100% and doing research and leadership at the same time. Aiming for the highest bar (AOA) and if I miss, I will still be okay God willing. I am not going to do a half-ass job to get by preclinical so I can focus on steps. At the end of the day, one shot at Step 2 is all that is needed.

Wait until you bomb your step 2 during 4th year when you already have your away rotation set up then realize you are not competitive enough for your specialty 4-5 months before eras submission then struggle finding a spot for research year then you will say otherwise...I don’t know what year you are...but there are people who think they will do well on step and they don’t. Having your options (step one and step two) are always better than one. I am happy I don’t have to deal w this step one P/F.

 

[ciestar]

Even in neurosurgery, only like 39% of matched students had AOA. Clearly not a deal breaker. (And about 20% of unmatched were AOA.)

Not all schools even have AOA.

 

[ciestar]

Wait until you bomb your step 2 during 4th year when you already have your away rotation set up then realize you are not competitive enough for your specialty 4-5 months before eras submission then struggle finding a spot for research year then you will say otherwise...I don’t know what year you are...but there are people who think they will do well on step and they don’t. Having your options (step one and step two) are always better than one. I am happy I don’t have to deal w this step one P/F.

My 211 on step 1 would have preferred p/f lolol

 

[MDMechEngr]

Wait until you bomb your step 2 during 4th year when you already have your away rotation set up then realize you are not competitive enough for your specialty 4-5 months before eras submission then struggle finding a spot for research year then you will say otherwise...I don’t know what year you are...but there are people who think they will do well on step and they don’t. Having your options (step one and step two) are always better than one. I am happy I don’t have to deal w this step one P/F.

I am an M1. It is scary to have everything ride on Step 2 when it is taken so late and there is not another test to redeem your self. Plan B will be supper critical going forward.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Not all schools even have AOA.

Yeah I said that in a later post.

 

[ciestar]

Yeah I said that in a later post.

Oops lol
Well to reiterate...

 

[Detailsmatter]

I honestly hate talking about this because I see how much some of my classmates struggle with mental health and the rigor of school. But really it hasn't been bad at all in med school. Im much happier than I was in undergrad and the material is super interesting for the most part. Im interested in a competitive surgical subspecialty so even thought we're P/F I try to do as well as I can (its also a big of ego if im being honest) but I consistently score above 90s on our exams and ive never really scored below average (just one exam). Im sure I could gets 95s very consistently but I try to focus on research and just well being in general. If you treat it as a job 9-5 and you dont have mental health issues you can really do it all in the amount of time. Now that step studying is ramping up im a bit more stressed but 8 hours is enough for studying and research imo. I dont think its good to talk about these things openly because I feel like its disrespectful to the troubles peers endure in med school but its nice to see that there are others who feel the same way and that im not an dingus for feeling this way lmao.

Edit: also obviously there's ppl who do way better than me in class but they also just live and breathe studying. honestly props to them I respect it but I just can't do it

 

[deleted1079620]

If you treat it as a job 9-5 and you dont have mental health issues you can really do it all in the amount of time.

This is not true for every school. Some schools use NBME exams and everything is standardized, so yes you can BnB + anki + flip through lectures 40-50 hrs a week and do fine...if you’re a fast processor you’ll do great.

But a lot of schools have professor written exams, and it takes more than 9-5 M-F to do well. Other schools have more mandatory stuff that eats up study time. I know this is the MD forum, but don’t forget that DO students have extra hours they have to put in each week for OMM lectures and labs. Needing more than 40 hours a week does not indicate someone has a mental health issue preventing them from doing well.

 

[Detailsmatter]

This is not true for every school. Some schools use NBME exams and everything is standardized, so yes you can BnB + anki + flip through lectures 40-50 hrs a week and do fine...if you’re a fast processor you’ll do great.

But a lot of schools have professor written exams, and it takes more than 9-5 M-F to do well. Other schools have more mandatory stuff that eats up study time. I know this is the MD forum, but don’t forget that DO students have extra hours they have to put in each week for OMM lectures and labs. Needing more than 40 hours a week does not indicate someone has a mental health issue preventing them from doing well.

I didn't mean to say/imply that if you can't fit it in 9-5 it means you have mental health issues its just that in my experience thats the biggest hurdle I see my classmates facing. Theres obviously tons of other reasons why people may not fit it in 8 hours a day of studying. You do bring up a good point of mandatories throwing a wrench in those plans. my school doesnt have many mandatories so I just take the L on those hours im stuck in those sessions. However, most of our exams are majority in-house but I feel like people are very inefficient with their studying. I think its rare for people to really put in more than 10 hours a day because it takes them more effort to memorize. If ppl were to really track how much they spent time studying im almost positive a lot of the time it would be less than 10 hours. obviously this is just my thoughts on it

 

[deleted1079620]

I didn't mean to say/imply that if you can't fit it in 9-5 it means you have mental health issues its just that in my experience thats the biggest hurdle I see my classmates facing. Theres obviously tons of other reasons why people may not fit it in 8 hours a day of studying. You do bring up a good point of mandatories throwing a wrench in those plans. my school doesnt have many mandatories so I just take the L on those hours im stuck in those sessions. However, most of our exams are majority in-house but I feel like people are very inefficient with their studying. I think its rare for people to really put in more than 10 hours a day because it takes them more effort to memorize. If ppl were to really track how much they spent time studying im almost positive a lot of the time it would be less than 10 hours. obviously this is just my thoughts on it

I agree that most people who claim to be studying “12 hours a day” usually aren’t really being efficient with their time, and some of that study time is lost to the distractions of social media, talking to friends/roommates, checking phone notifications, etc.

 

[datboi_58]

I thought undergrad was mostly a breeze but I’m finding med school a bit more difficult in comparison actually.

My study time varies for medical school but I would say I put in 50-60 hours weekly including class time. Sometimes it’s less and sometimes it’s more but that’s probably the average.

 

[Mass Effect]

These threads are always ridiculous because this depends largely on aptitude and what you want. While people are literally failing out every year, I don't think it's fair to say "it's easy" or even "it's not that bad" without adding in "for me." Your experience isn't everyone else's and some DO need 6+ hours a day to make it work. No shame in that. Even at Harvard and Yale, someone finishes at the bottom of the class.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Even at Harvard and Yale, someone finishes at the bottom of the class.

Not if they’re unranked.

 

[frenchyn]

I agree that most people who claim to be studying “12 hours a day” usually aren’t really being efficient with their time, and some of that study time is lost to the distractions of social media, talking to friends/roommates, checking phone notifications, etc.

People study differently...I am one of those who study 12 hours a day...to rank among top 10 of my class...this by no means I am smart...I compensate for being average by spending more time on study...sorry not everyone is as smart as you so just because you don’t think you need to study 12 hours does not mean others are not efficient...I assume you rank among the top of your class?

 

[Mass Effect]

You don’t know why it would be helpful to know the pathophysiology of diseases or the pharmacology of the drugs you prescribe? That lack of knowledge is why people getting treated by psych NPs are on multiple stimulants and a benzo or on an SSRI with bipolar disorder. Or why an emergency department NP gave a girl with a PE adenosine, diazepam, and metoprolol and killed her.

While lots of psych NPs suck, SSRIs in bipolar disorder is actually a viable (and mainstream) treatment. Don't forget the other side of bipolar disorder is depression.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

While lots of psych NPs suck, SSRIs in bipolar disorder is actually a viable (and mainstream) treatment. Don't forget the other side of bipolar disorder is depression.

Yeah, I simplified it a little bit. I should have mentioned using SSRIs without any sort of caution or awareness of precipitating mania in bipolar disorder.

 

[deleted889094]

People study differently...I am one of those who study 12 hours a day...to rank among top 10 of my class...this by no means I am smart...I compensate for being average by spending more time on study...sorry not everyone is as smart as you so just because you don’t think you need to study 12 hours does not mean others are not efficient...I assume you rank among the top of your class?

You have to remember there will be some students who are just brilliant and will do excellent with little work. And hopefully they keep it to themselves

 

[deleted1079620]

People study differently...I am one of those who study 12 hours a day...to rank among top 10 of my class...this by no means I am smart...I compensate for being average by spending more time on study...sorry not everyone is as smart as you so just because you don’t think you need to study 12 hours does not mean others are not efficient...I assume you rank among the top of your class?

Wow, I did not say any of those things, and I’m sorry if I offended you. That response was actually directed at another poster, I could easily see top 10 requiring 12 hours a day.

If PASSING required 12 hours a day of studying, I would be seeking advice to make sure I was using effective active learning strategies, and I would track my time to make sure I was staying on track and not getting distracted. It’s only natural to sit down for a study session, look up an hour or two later and realize you’ve only covered a small amount of material because your attention has been pulled away by one thing or another. I’ve done it, as have many others...but it doesn’t make me or them any more or less smart. It just means I should be more aware of how much actual work I’m getting done.

 

[Detailsmatter]

These threads are always ridiculous because this depends largely on aptitude and what you want. While people are literally failing out every year, I don't think it's fair to say "it's easy" or even "it's not that bad" without adding in "for me." Your experience isn't everyone else's and some DO need 6+ hours a day to make it work. No shame in that. Even at Harvard and Yale, someone finishes at the bottom of the class.

That’s a given. Just like every other opinion

 

[jambro]

I'm also not convinced that someone who studies ">10 hours a day" is necessarily going to do better than someone who studies 4 hours a day, or even much better than if that same person studied 4 hours a day. I guess I just really couldn't see myself studying that much every day but maybe people really are that much more dedicated than me. Maybe I'm biased, but I firmly believe most people couldn't accurately gauge how long they really studied, and don't necessarily study efficiently.