Med School prestige matter?

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yonderson

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I know this has been asked a lot in the past but I can't find much from recent postings on it. Im wondering if school name has any effect on your ability to snag competitive residencies (ortho, neurosurg, etc.) Any comment? I mean I have heard lots of people say it doesnt matter, but I just have a hard time believing it (someone correct me if Im wrong). Lets say we have two students. One is at Vanderbilt the other is at Mercer. They have same class rank. Equal research experience. Interview the same. Basically everything is equal between the two but the one at Mercer scored 1 point higher on Step 1. I just have a really difficult time thinking that the Mercer student will have a greater opportunity of getting ortho at HSS or neurosurg at UCSF than the Vandy guy. (Not saying Mercer is in any way less quality. My dad is a mercer grad. Just saying it does have less prestige). Does it really not make a difference? For the record I will be very happy if the answer is that it does not make any difference.
 
It makes a difference but not as much as you think. All things would never be equal in your hypothetical situation. Some schools have better resources than others outside of prestige
 
C@lidoc said:
It makes a difference but not as much as you think. All things would never be equal in your hypothetical situation. Some schools have better resources than others outside of prestige
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Why would they not be equal?
 
🙁 Oh come off it guys. This is a real pre-med issue. It's in the pre-med forum. I had a hunch this was going to go :boom: really fast but I really hoped it wouldn't.
 
mimelim said:
Where you go to school matters... a little. For surgical sub-specialties it matters next to none, but at the super high end programs in IM and peds, there is a certain level of bias toward the big name schools. My theory is that this is because they simply have so many 260+ Step 1 applicants (their pools are huge) that they run out of ways to differentiate applicants.
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Low tier med school --> academic medicine
 
Like the poster above said, it may matter due to research opportunities and good residency connections, but if you're in a U.S. MD program, chances are good you'll still have plenty of opportunities to reach the specialty you like. Or so I've been told.
 
Haha these threads pop up every week, I never noticed them until I started my app cycle. I think the consensus is that it matters, but by degrees. I have also come to understand that this prestige 'boost' is way bigger for the top 5 or 10 schools than it is for schools ranked 10-30. Big brand names like Harvard and Hopkins will make a difference, but a good school like Emory might not move the needle. That said, I think even an Emory may provide a slight advantage over a school ranked below the top 50--whether that advantage comes from more research opportunities or prestige of name.
 
mimelim said:
Just to add a little more detail to Mad Jack's post. I am going to assume that you are thinking peds based on your OP.


Your residency is going to largely determine what doors are open or are difficult to open. Going to one of the top peds programs is pretty damn important if you are aiming to stay at one of the big name programs after graduation. Residency applications are complex. Now, this will seemingly contradict many of my prior posts on this site, but... Where you go to school matters... a little. For surgical sub-specialties it matters next to none, but at the super high end programs in IM and peds, there is a certain level of bias toward the big name schools. My theory is that this is because they simply have so many 260+ Step 1 applicants (their pools are huge) that they run out of ways to differentiate applicants. I have an MS4 friend applying this cycle into peds out of one of the UTs, I have seen a fair amount of bias against him at the top top peds programs despite on paper him blowing me out of the water scores wise.
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Is it ok to vent a little? That kind of (assuming the entirety of the bias was based on school name) snobbery just pisses me off. I know I'm a pre-med, but it's like what if you are a nontrad like I am and you are having kids during med school so you really need to stay near a your family for support or something like that? Nope, no super cool academic career for you! Rant over. Thanks for listening.
 
yonderson said:
Is it ok to vent a little? That kind of (assuming the entirety of the bias was based on school name) snobbery just pisses me off. I know I'm a pre-med, but it's like what if you are a nontrad like I am and you are having kids during med school so you really need to stay near a your family for support or something like that? Nope, no super cool academic career for you! Rant over. Thanks for listening.
Click to expand...

On the flip side, everything is a choice. Students can choose to have a family, but yes, it does get in the way of professional aspirations. I've been married now, coming up on 6 years. Given the time constraints that puts on me, I can only imagine what it would be like to have kids in the picture as well. This is pretty much true in every field, law, business, medicine, you name it. Programs that are competitive have their pick of applicants. We had >140 applications this year for 2 spots. Lord knows how many applicants the top IM/Peds programs get (although of course they have more spots). Everyone sacrifices for the things that they consider to be important. When we look for a future resident, we aren't just looking for scores. They are only a small part of the equation. An important one, but only part. Just because someone has good scores doesn't mean the 'deserve' a spot somewhere or that they are entitled to it.

Should a residency discriminate against a student for having or wanting to have a family? No, absolutely not. But, if it impacts/drags down performance in other areas that a program cares about, it is hard to fault them for selecting others.
 
140 people wanted to fight for 1 open AAA a month and 20 bajillion bypasses!? Teehee.
 
yonderson said:
Is it ok to vent a little? That kind of (assuming the entirety of the bias was based on school name) snobbery just pisses me off. I know I'm a pre-med, but it's like what if you are a nontrad like I am and you are having kids during med school so you really need to stay near a your family for support or something like that? Nope, no super cool academic career for you! Rant over. Thanks for listening.
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How many people need a super cool academic career to be happy, and how many need to go to a top residency to achieve it?
Would the nontrad rather have her family or the career? I don't know if they can have both, but they can make choices that reflect their priorities.
 
yonderson said:
I know this has been asked a lot in the past but I can't find much from recent postings on it. Im wondering if school name has any effect on your ability to snag competitive residencies (ortho, neurosurg, etc.) Any comment? I mean I have heard lots of people say it doesnt matter, but I just have a hard time believing it (someone correct me if Im wrong). Lets say we have two students. One is at Vanderbilt the other is at Mercer. They have same class rank. Equal research experience. Interview the same. Basically everything is equal between the two but the one at Mercer scored 1 point higher on Step 1. I just have a really difficult time thinking that the Mercer student will have a greater opportunity of getting ortho at HSS or neurosurg at UCSF than the Vandy guy. (Not saying Mercer is in any way less quality. My dad is a mercer grad. Just saying it does have less prestige). Does it really not make a difference? For the record I will be very happy if the answer is that it does not make any difference.
Click to expand...

Oh my god lol
there needs to be a sticky

URM thread. Prestige thread. Turning down schools nicely thread. Should I be a doctor thread. What is the stupidest method that I can use to choose between medical schools with simplistic hypotheticals that have no bearing on reality thread

95% of pre-allo right here
 
Hilarious how the CT surgeons have to fight with the cards on endo procedures, when the vascular guys have owned endo all along. no one cares about the peripheral vasculature!
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Cardiologists are doing a ton of peripheral vascular, with horrible understanding of the pathology and the long-term implications of their interventions.
Click to expand...

They are? Not where I'm working! cards does the ICU care and cards clearance 🙂

and the long term physiology is that... everyone's leg falls off. quick, just preemptively consult plastics for ulcer debridement.
 
oh i did read that. thought it was just mini flukes, but what do i know.. i'm just a skin surgeon 🙂
 
Didn't read the whole thread, but my understanding is this:

Going into academia? Yep, prestige of school definitely matters. Can be made up for by having a very solid research background.

Going for a very competitive specialty? Prestige may factor in- just because of how many identical apps there can be.

Anything else? Nah, just go to the cheapest place you can be happy (or at least not miserable).

Oh I forgot to add:
Going into politics? Hell yes. Harvard med or nothing. (Weirdly there are people who take the medicine route to be more trusted in politics..)

Going into consulting? Top schools have easier access to the best consulting firms like McKinsey, who will have standard tracks to transitioning into their company post MD for the more competitive schools.

Should I stress out about where I got in? No, what's it going to change?
 
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SouthernSurgeon said:
No, that's the whole problem. The long-term physiology of a claudicant is by and large that they remain a claudicant. Very few claudicants progress to limb-threatening ischemia.

But when you intervene with a stent on a stable claudicant, you've changed the natural history of the disease, because at some point the stent will go down and be unsalvageable by secondary intervention. So you then have created an in-line obstruction (analogous to the impact of an in-stent thrombosis in the coronaries) and put this patient who otherwise never would have had a threatened limb at risk of needing an amputation.

By lowering the threshold for intervention (because a stent is easier and less short term morbid than a bypass), it's meant a wider use and misapplication of that intervention for people who probably never should have gotten it.
Click to expand...

Woah woah woah baby. You are getting too intelligent for me. I'm a plastics guy... dunno anything about pipes that are bigger than 3mm.

In all seriousness, I get it. From my few months of vascular, all I can say is that the patient population tends to cling to those legs for a very long time if left alone. However (and please pardon the pun), the limbs to limp along with tons of pain, wounds, disability. I think that symptomatically, revascularization makes sense to a lot of people, but they are essentially living for today and ignoring tomorrow. Although, I'm not sure whether revascularization actually improves symptoms?
 
either way, when the leg breaks down. CAN MY PA VAC IT?
 
yonderson said:
Is it ok to vent a little? That kind of (assuming the entirety of the bias was based on school name) snobbery just pisses me off. I know I'm a pre-med, but it's like what if you are a nontrad like I am and you are having kids during med school so you really need to stay near a your family for support or something like that? Nope, no super cool academic career for you! Rant over. Thanks for listening.
Click to expand...

Life isn't fair, these "super cool academic careers" or positions are that prestigious or selective for a reason, they get lots of applicants and can choose who they want. Just because you go to a state school, it doesn't make everyone who went to Harvard a snob. They had the grades and opportunity to do it, and they did. That then puts them in a better position off the bat than you. That isn't being a "snob" it's just life, **** isn't fair or equal.
 
yonderson said:
I know this has been asked a lot in the past but I can't find much from recent postings on it. Im wondering if school name has any effect on your ability to snag competitive residencies (ortho, neurosurg, etc.) Any comment? I mean I have heard lots of people say it doesnt matter, but I just have a hard time believing it (someone correct me if Im wrong). Lets say we have two students. One is at Vanderbilt the other is at Mercer. They have same class rank. Equal research experience. Interview the same. Basically everything is equal between the two but the one at Mercer scored 1 point higher on Step 1. I just have a really difficult time thinking that the Mercer student will have a greater opportunity of getting ortho at HSS or neurosurg at UCSF than the Vandy guy. (Not saying Mercer is in any way less quality. My dad is a mercer grad. Just saying it does have less prestige). Does it really not make a difference? For the record I will be very happy if the answer is that it does not make any difference.
Click to expand...
forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/its-insanely-difficult-to-get-into-a-top-im-program-from-a-non-top-25-medical-school.1073026

You're welcome.
 
mimelim said:
On the flip side, everything is a choice. Students can choose to have a family, but yes, it does get in the way of professional aspirations. I've been married now, coming up on 6 years. Given the time constraints that puts on me, I can only imagine what it would be like to have kids in the picture as well. This is pretty much true in every field, law, business, medicine, you name it. Programs that are competitive have their pick of applicants. We had >140 applications this year for 2 spots. Lord knows how many applicants the top IM/Peds programs get (although of course they have more spots). Everyone sacrifices for the things that they consider to be important. When we look for a future resident, we aren't just looking for scores. They are only a small part of the equation. An important one, but only part. Just because someone has good scores doesn't mean the 'deserve' a spot somewhere or that they are entitled to it.

Should a residency discriminate against a student for having or wanting to have a family? No, absolutely not. But, if it impacts/drags down performance in other areas that a program cares about, it is hard to fault them for selecting others.
Click to expand...

Yeah I guess I get that. It's just when stuff like school selection trumps indicators of quality performance...it's just one of those things in life I guess.

Fedekz said:
Life isn't fair, these "super cool academic careers" or positions are that prestigious or selective for a reason, they get lots of applicants and can choose who they want. Just because you go to a state school, it doesn't make everyone who went to Harvard a snob. They had the grades and opportunity to do it, and they did. That then puts them in a better position off the bat than you. That isn't being a "snob" it's just life, **** isn't fair or equal.
Click to expand...

I just want to clarify that I'm not calling all those who go to Harvard snobs. What is snobby is shunning a non-Harvard applicant whose indicators of performance rival those of a Harvard applicant in favor of aforementioned Harvard applicant because of the difference in schools.

Psai said:
Oh my god lol
there needs to be a sticky

URM thread. Prestige thread. Turning down schools nicely thread. Should I be a doctor thread. What is the stupidest method that I can use to choose between medical schools with simplistic hypotheticals that have no bearing on reality thread

95% of pre-allo right here
Click to expand...

If in the future of my medical training an attending begins a mildly insulting critique of my performance with the words "Oh my god lol there needs to be a sticky," he will be knocked on his ass. Ruin my career? Yes. Worth it? Probably not. Feels good? Yessssss.
 
Medical school prestige doesn't matter. The reason it doesn't is because the prestige of your most terminal education is what matters most. Since most people just go to college and work, college prestige matters a lot to those people (especially in certain fields). Medical school prestige doesn't matter because you still do a residency after that, which DOES matter. The people that match into neurosurgery or derm will match into that regardless of where they go to medical school. BTW, plenty of people at "top" schools go into primary care, so again, it doesn't matter
 
yonderson said:
I know this has been asked a lot in the past but I can't find much from recent postings on it. Im wondering if school name has any effect on your ability to snag competitive residencies (ortho, neurosurg, etc.) Any comment? I mean I have heard lots of people say it doesnt matter, but I just have a hard time believing it (someone correct me if Im wrong). Lets say we have two students. One is at Vanderbilt the other is at Mercer. They have same class rank. Equal research experience. Interview the same. Basically everything is equal between the two but the one at Mercer scored 1 point higher on Step 1. I just have a really difficult time thinking that the Mercer student will have a greater opportunity of getting ortho at HSS or neurosurg at UCSF than the Vandy guy. (Not saying Mercer is in any way less quality. My dad is a mercer grad. Just saying it does have less prestige). Does it really not make a difference? For the record I will be very happy if the answer is that it does not make any difference.
Click to expand...

If both people have the same stats and interview well, they'll go with the person they liked better, that simple. Only place where this may not be the case is if the person is interviewing at their home institution and they preferentially prefer people from their own med school
 
famoussquamous said:
Medical school prestige doesn't matter. The reason it doesn't is because the prestige of your most terminal education is what matters most. Since most people just go to college and work, college prestige matters a lot to those people (especially in certain fields). Medical school prestige doesn't matter because you still do a residency after that, which DOES matter. The people that match into neurosurgery or derm will match into that regardless of where they go to medical school. BTW, plenty of people at "top" schools go into primary care, so again, it doesn't matter
Click to expand...
A lot easier to go from Harvard/Penn to MGH than from Arizona/New Mexico to MGH.
 
Shams al Deen said:
A lot easier to go from Harvard/Penn to MGH than from Arizona/New Mexico to MGH.
Click to expand...

Define "easier". Do more people from those schools go to good residencies? Sure. Does that mean that state schools don't produce good residents? Of course not. Most "flagship" state medical schools will send a good amount of people to "elite" programs, many to "excellent" programs, most to good programs, and almost everyone gets SOMETHING.

You also have to keep in mind the talent pool at these respective schools. The kid that could have gone to Harvard/Penn med but went to his state medical school for free will probably match just as well as a kid from those schools. That's why people are told to go to wherever is cheapest, since you'll probably end up at the same residency anyway.
 
yonderson said:
Yeah I guess I get that. It's just when stuff like school selection trumps indicators of quality performance...it's just one of those things in life I guess.



I just want to clarify that I'm not calling all those who go to Harvard snobs. What is snobby is shunning a non-Harvard applicant whose indicators of performance rival those of a Harvard applicant in favor of aforementioned Harvard applicant because of the difference in schools.



If in the future of my medical training an attending begins a mildly insulting critique of my performance with the words "Oh my god lol there needs to be a sticky," he will be knocked on his ass. Ruin my career? Yes. Worth it? Probably not. Feels good? Yessssss.
Click to expand...

Lol OK Mr Internet tough guy. There's no way you would do that ever
 
Psai said:
Oh my god lol
there needs to be a sticky

URM thread. Prestige thread. Turning down schools nicely thread. Should I be a doctor thread. What is the stupidest method that I can use to choose between medical schools with simplistic hypotheticals that have no bearing on reality thread

95% of pre-allo right here
Click to expand...

Psai said:
Lol OK Mr Internet tough guy. There's no way you would do that ever
Click to expand...

Better than Mr. Internet passive-aggressive guy. Of course I wouldn't do that to an attending! Only to other medical students.
 
famoussquamous said:
The kid that could have gone to Harvard/Penn med but went to his state medical school for free will probably match just as well as a kid from those schools. That's why people are told to go to wherever is cheapest, since you'll probably end up at the same residency anyway.
Click to expand...
If that were true then how come all the best candidates are fighting for spots at the same 10 schools. If Harvard vs random state school made no difference then wouldn't more top candidates just stay at their state schools (cheaper, closer to family, etc). I partly agree with you though. Of course, it's not just the name of the school that contributes to the difference in match success. It comes down to individual ability (scores/grades, etc.), goals, opportunities at your school, AND reputation of your school. I will never buy the argument that Harvard and random state school have equal opportunities, it is ridiculous.
 
Shams al Deen said:
If that were true then how come all the best candidates are fighting for spots at the same 10 schools. If Harvard vs random state school made no difference then wouldn't more top candidates just stay at their state schools (cheaper, closer to family, etc). I partly agree with you though. Of course, it's not just the name of the school that contributes to the difference in match success. It comes down to individual ability (scores/grades, etc.), goals, opportunities at your school, AND reputation of your school. I will never buy the argument that Harvard and random state school have equal opportunities, it is ridiculous.
Click to expand...


They definitely don't have the same resources. Some state schools don't have certain programs. Also, at least this is how it was for ugrad, a lot of the people that are fortunate enough to go to "elite" schools come from families that are LOADED. Most just go to their state school for free versus going into debt 250K for undergrad. Medical school is probably similar. If not, then there would be no need for top schools to even have a waitlist since everyone that got accepted would go.
 
famoussquamous said:
Define "easier". Do more people from those schools go to good residencies? Sure. Does that mean that state schools don't produce good residents? Of course not. Most "flagship" state medical schools will send a good amount of people to "elite" programs, many to "excellent" programs, most to good programs, and almost everyone gets SOMETHING.

You also have to keep in mind the talent pool at these respective schools. The kid that could have gone to Harvard/Penn med but went to his state medical school for free will probably match just as well as a kid from those schools. That's why people are told to go to wherever is cheapest, since you'll probably end up at the same residency anyway.
Click to expand...

This is not true.
 
famoussquamous said:
They definitely don't have the same resources. Some state schools don't have certain programs. Also, at least this is how it was for ugrad, a lot of the people that are fortunate enough to go to "elite" schools come from families that are LOADED. Most just go to their state school for free versus going into debt 250K for undergrad. Medical school is probably similar. If not, then there would be no need for top schools to even have a waitlist since everyone that got accepted would go.
Click to expand...

Anecdotal evidence, but all of the "top" undergrad schools I got into were cheaper than my state school because they gave me so much aid (in grants, not loans)... and my flagship state school only gave me a nice $5000 loan 🙁

Top schools (at least for undergrad) are not inherently more expensive than state schools.

Edit: http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/05/82-percent-of-admitted-to-attend/

82% yield for Harvard last year. The reasons cited in the article include their extremely generous financial aid.
 
famoussquamous said:
Most just go to their state school for free versus going into debt 250K for undergrad. Medical school is probably similar. If not, then there would be no need for top schools to even have a waitlist since everyone that got accepted would go.
Click to expand...
The guy that gets into a top 25 school, probably got into a few other top schools. It's not simply elite vs state school. It's elite 1 vs elite 2 vs elite 3 vs state school for a lot of these guys.
 
WedgeDawg said:
Anecdotal evidence, but all of the "top" undergrad schools I got into were cheaper than my state school because they gave me so much aid (in grants, not loans)... and my flagship state school only gave me a nice $5000 loan 🙁

Top schools (at least for undergrad) are not inherently more expensive than state schools.
Click to expand...

True. I got a full ride at my "top" undergrad, but that's only because I don't come from money. The reality is is that most people at these top schools have an insane amount of money, hence why most don't qualify for this aid.

Shams al Deen said:
The guy that gets into a top 25 school, probably got into a few other top schools. It's not simply elite vs state school. It's elite 1 vs elite 2 vs elite 3 vs state school for a lot of these guys.
Click to expand...

True. It's usually a small number of students holding onto a lot of these acceptances. That said, I know a kid that got into Harvard and turned it down to go to GW for free. A good amount of applicants probably do the same. Location/family are also things to consider.
 
famoussquamous said:
True. I got a full ride at my "top" undergrad, but that's only because I don't come from money. The reality is is that most people at these top schools have an insane amount of money, hence why most don't qualify for this aid.
Click to expand...

"In fact, approximately 70 percent of our students receive some form of aid, and about 60 percent receive need–based scholarships and pay an average of $12,000 per year. Twenty percent of parents pay nothing. No loans required."

https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works
 
Psai said:
I think it's true to an extent. There are people in my class that turned down much higher ranked schools for various reasons. They are doing well and I don't doubt that they will match well
Click to expand...
I imagine a lot of rejections and waitlists turn in to "acceptances" once you've matriculated at a school. Like the guy at Michigan State telling everyone "hey, I got into UMich but I really value holistic medicine and I got a scholarship"
 
Psai said:
I think it's true to an extent. There are people in my class that turned down much higher ranked schools for various reasons. They are doing well and I don't doubt that they will match well
Click to expand...

I'm not saying students don't turn down higher-ranked schools for financial reasons (although I find it odd that everyone assumes state schools are always cheaper than private schools, especially when private schools are more likely to give out scholarship aid than state schools). However, I am arguing that that there is a small, but nontrivial advantage with a better medical school reputation, especially when applying to competitive and academic specialties. It may have to do with resources, renowned/recognizable faculty, more total graduates matching to these programs in the past, who knows? I do know that there is a visible difference between school match lists, no matter how unwise and difficult they may be to read into. I also know firsthand from the nametags I see on the interview trail.

EDIT: I'm also trying to dismantle this pre-med notion that school reputation doesn't matter. It should factor into your decision, but it should be at the bottom and lowest-weighted variable of them all. With all things being equal, definitely choose the cheaper school. If you're passing up a top 20 to go to your unranked state school over $30,000--then you need to rethink things. I can tell you the bottom half of my school matches much differently than the bottom half of UCSF for internal medicine, even though we have higher average board scores than they do.
 
Last edited:
ski89 said:
Psai? Passive? lolz
Click to expand...

Yeah, youre right. Sorry, Psai. I am just kidding around.

This thread is good. I'm wondering if school name makes an even bigger impact in the military match. My hunch says yes, considering in general how volatile the military match appears to be from opinions I have seen on SDN.
 
WedgeDawg said:
"In fact, approximately 70 percent of our students receive some form of aid, and about 60 percent receive need–based scholarships and pay an average of $12,000 per year. Twenty percent of parents pay nothing. No loans required."

https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works
Click to expand...

Harvard =/ all "elite" schools. Harvard does a good job at looking for the really smart kids from underprivileged backgrounds. Other elite schools are more about just stats, which tends to favor richer individuals. At my school I think that if your parents made less than $500K combined a year (it's a bit more complicated than that), you were eligible for aid, and about 40% of kids didn't qualify for aid.. Also some students that "receive aid" don't get much (think about $2-$4k) yet count as receiving aid so they can inflate their "receiving aid" stats.
 
famoussquamous said:
Harvard =/ all "elite" schools. Harvard does a good job at looking for the really smart kids from underprivileged backgrounds. Other elite schools are more about just stats, which tends to favor richer individuals. At my school I think that if your parents made less than $500K combined a year (it's a bit more complicated than that), you were eligible for aid, and about 40% of kids didn't qualify for aid.. Also some students that "receive aid" don't get much (think about $2-$4k) yet count as receiving aid so they can inflate their "receiving aid" stats.
Click to expand...

Care to let us know what this elite school is where 40% of kids have parents making > $500K combined? I am really skeptical, but would love to learn more if that's the case.
 
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