Med school prestige, MD vs DO, specialty arguments are completely toxic

[VA Hopeful Dr]

That is not a good argument. Nothing in this world is good for everyone. 3-yr curriculum is good for the majority.

You don't know that

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[VA Hopeful Dr]

Now the insult... Great.

Slightly, but you obviously didn't read my post before posting a response to a link I already addressed.

 

[libertyyne]

Just because 3-year programs are offered to top performing students at some of these insitutions doesnt really mean that other students would be incapable of doing the programs.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Just because 3-year programs are offered to top performing students at some of these insitutions doesnt really mean that other students would be incapable of doing the programs.

That's true. We can't really know unless it's offered.

 

[Splenda88]

That's true. We can't really know unless it's offered.

It is offered to all students at U of Miami now except they also require all to do 1 yr research...

 

[Splenda88]

Lol...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It is offered to all students at U of Miami now except they also require all to do 1 yr research...

Do they require tuition for the year of research?

 

[Splenda88]

Do they require tuition for the year of research?

Of course they do...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Of course they do...

Gross.

How do they do, match wise? Step scores?

 

[C2FOAL]

Lol dude I literally meet people ALL the time who think medical doctors have a PhD in medicine. And these are often people who are college educated!
People have no clue what a PA or NP is.



Kind of disagree. NDs are quacks. Their market is different and the people they see are the types you only meet in modern medicine once **** hits the fan and they need bulldozer treatments/admission. NPs are direct competitors who are fooling people into thinking they're equivalent to doctors.

Competition! - the crux of all this vitriol. (Some) Allopaths are so concerned with scrambling and clawing to maintain their precarious status atop the rotting carcass that is our healthcare industrial complex they do not actually give a damn about patients. Scared silly that all of their years of posturing and grinding and maneuvering to get ahead will not be properly respected, they rail against all of these others who what? - erode the value of their honorary signifiers? Working on providing better and more caring treatment might be a better way to elevate/ restore public respect for and confidence in the profession. Allopathic medicine is a profession which has drifted far from its core principles. The highly trained folks who brought us the opioid epidemic, the running dogs of the pharmaceutical industry, have a significant credibility gap when casting stones and decrying alternative healing modalities as junk science.

 

[C2FOAL]

A lot of them endanger patient care with bad decisions because the quality of their education and training is highly variable. Sorry but i don't have much sympathy for them

Same is true of those holding the MD degree...which is why malpractice actions & insurance are a thing.

 

[DO2015CA]

Competition! - the crux of all this vitriol. (Some) Allopaths are so concerned with scrambling and clawing to maintain their precarious status atop the rotting carcass that is our healthcare industrial complex they do not actually give a damn about patients. Scared silly that all of their years of posturing and grinding and maneuvering to get ahead will not be properly respected, they rail against all of these others who what? - erode the value of their honorary signifiers? Working on providing better and more caring treatment might be a better way to elevate/ restore public respect for and confidence in the profession. Allopathic medicine is a profession which has drifted far from its core principles. The highly trained folks who brought us the opioid epidemic, the running dogs of the pharmaceutical industry, have a significant credibility gap when casting stones and decrying alternative healing modalities as junk science.

you are delusional. DOs are the same as MDs. There are plenty prestige ****** and plenty DOs that partook in things such as causing the opioid epidemic. This is the same prejudice that younger MDs and DOs alike have been fighting to overcome from the old guard. Full stop. We are both physicians. We are the same role.

edited for grammar and spelling lol. Night shift is killing me

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Competition! - the crux of all this vitriol. (Some) Allopaths are so concerned with scrambling and clawing to maintain their precarious status atop the rotting carcass that is our healthcare industrial complex they do not actually give a damn about patients. Scared silly that all of their years of posturing and grinding and maneuvering to get ahead will not be properly respected, they rail against all of these others who what? - erode the value of their honorary signifiers? Working on providing better and more caring treatment might be a better way to elevate/ restore public respect for and confidence in the profession. Allopathic medicine is a profession which has drifted far from its core principles. The highly trained folks who brought us the opioid epidemic, the running dogs of the pharmaceutical industry, have a significant credibility gap when casting stones and decrying alternative healing modalities as junk science.

I think you may have watched “What the Health?” too many times.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

you are delusional. DOs are the same as MDs. There are plenty prestige ****** and plenty DOs that partook in things such as causing the opioid epidemic. This is the same prejudice that younger MDs and DOs alike have been fighting to overcome from the old guard. Full stop. We are both physicians. We are the same role.

edited for grammar and spelling lol. Night shift is killing me

I also loled at the whole pharma comment. Like docs are getting huge paychecks from these companies. And the CEOs of Pfizer, Merck & Co, AstraZeneca, and J&J include two veterinarians, a lawyer, and an MBA. No physicians lol.

 

[Neopolymath]

I also loled at the whole pharma comment. Like docs are getting huge paychecks from these companies. And the CEOs of Pfizer, Merck & Co, AstraZeneca, and J&J include two veterinarians, a lawyer, and an MBA. No physicians lol.

You start getting the checks after M3, fyi.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You start getting the checks after M3, fyi.

We start clerkship in M2, so do I get them earlier?

 

[Neopolymath]

We start clerkship in M2, so do I get them earlier?

Let me ask my Eli Lilly contacts. You usually get the anti-vaccine secret master plan after m2.

 

[C2FOAL]

you are delusional. DOs are the same as MDs. There are plenty prestige ****** and plenty DOs that partook in things such as causing the opioid epidemic. This is the same prejudice that younger MDs and DOs alike have been fighting to overcome from the old guard. Full stop. We are both physicians. We are the same role.

edited for grammar and spelling lol. Night shift is killing me

You betray your fear and self-loathing in your resort to personal insult. People such as yourself (DO I presume) are, clearly and embarrassingly, disappointed MD wannabes. If you believe those such as yourself who succeeded where you failed (and acquired what they perceive to be the “golden ticket“ ) will ever regard you as equals you are mistaken. In their place I believe you would not be any more generous. They worked too hard and/ exercised too many privileges to get there. The allopathic hierarchy undertook the process of subsuming DOs in their residency system as a practical way to deal with the atrocious “physician shortage “ without seriously impacting the monetary value and cachet of their own degree. MDs have a vested interest in maintaining an (entirely artificial) scarcity of MD graduates. Osteopaths are viewed as an inferior lower caste of physicians useful in their ready availability to fill less highly compensated ( and hence less desirable) specialties serves to forestall calls for meaningful change in the system. There are hierarchical structures within all these systems that do nothing to serve the need for better and more readily available care and have everything to do with preservation of prestige. MD is not equal to DO, though qualitatively DO practitioners in some cases provide superior care as compared to MD counterparts, as do some NPs, etc.

 

[C2FOAL]

I think you may have watched “What the Health?” too many times.

Weak tea as arguments go

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Weak tea as arguments go

Not an argument. I’ve found arguing with conspiracy theorists to be draining and fruitless.

 

[C2FOAL]

I also loled at the whole pharma comment. Like docs are getting huge paychecks from these companies. And the CEOs of Pfizer, Merck & Co, AstraZeneca, and J&J include two veterinarians, a lawyer, and an MBA. No physicians lol.

Which only serves to support my argument. If not to profit themselves physicians (DO&MD) acted as feckless sheep and sheep dogs, doing the bidding of and using their prestige to advance the rapacious agendas of these folks . I don’t see where many were deploying their much touted abilities to discern what is good science vs. quackery to rein in pharma. Changes in policy in this arena have been brought on principally through litigation/ fear of same, not application of critical thinking by physicians.

 

[C2FOAL]

Not an argument. I’ve found arguing with conspiracy theorists to be draining and fruitless.

Weaker still

 

[DO2015CA]

You betray your fear and self-loathing in your resort to personal insult. People such as yourself (DO I presume) are, clearly and embarrassingly, disappointed MD wannabes. If you believe those such as yourself who succeeded where you failed (and acquired what they perceive to be the “golden ticket“ ) will ever regard you as equals you are mistaken. In their place I believe you would not be any more generous. They worked too hard and/ exercised too many privileges to get there. The allopathic hierarchy undertook the process of subsuming DOs in their residency system as a practical way to deal with the atrocious “physician shortage “ without seriously impacting the monetary value and cachet of their own degree. MDs have a vested interest in maintaining an (entirely artificial) scarcity of MD graduates. Osteopaths are viewed as an inferior lower caste of physicians useful in their ready availability to fill less highly compensated ( and hence less desirable) specialties serves to forestall calls for meaningful change in the system. There are hierarchical structures within all these systems that do nothing to serve the need for better and more readily available care and have everything to do with preservation of prestige. MD is not equal to DO, though qualitatively DO practitioners in some cases provide superior care as compared to MD counterparts, as do some NPs, etc.

Okay I’ll bite and you are right I’ll stay away from the ad hominems which you call me out for but then go on to do the same. I am not a self hating DO nor am I a wannabe MD. I use some OMM, mainly sports medicine stuff. The fact is academic medicine as a whole is a hierarchy regardless of degree. That is where the prejudice is for specialty selection. We are aware of this. That is where we shouldn’t have merged residencies but that ship has sailed. I’ve unfortunately endured the same amount of abuse from my MD and DO higher ups. Once you are out of academic medicine no one cares and you are treated equal. I’m still going to treat how I was trained in med school and residency and that is as an osteopathic physician

If you want to call that MDs trying to stay atop the hierarchy then fine. We as DOs should’ve kept up with residency development instead of opening up a million schools. We should have created more and wide ranged fellowship programs so that we wouldn’t have been strong armed into residency merging. We as DOs play a large part in that as well

 

[ineedhelpplse]

I also loled at the whole pharma comment. Like docs are getting huge paychecks from these companies. And the CEOs of Pfizer, Merck & Co, AstraZeneca, and J&J include two veterinarians, a lawyer, and an MBA. No physicians lol.

I had a physician tell me that "back in the day" some of these companies as well as medical device companies would fly them out for golfing and partying in vegas but now it is not allowed anymore

 

[DO2015CA]

I had a physician tell me that "back in the day" some of these companies as well as medical device companies would fly them out for golfing and partying in vegas but now it is not allowed anymore

And that’s a good thing that we put a stop to it

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I had a physician tell me that "back in the day" some of these companies as well as medical device companies would fly them out for golfing and partying in vegas but now it is not allowed anymore

It hasn't been allowed for a while. I remember when that used to happen, and it got stopped. Reps weren't even allowed to bring bagels in for the staff anymore even back in the 2000s. It's a good thing.

 

[Raryn]

It hasn't been allowed for a while. I remember when that used to happen, and it got stopped. Reps weren't even allowed to bring bagels in for the staff anymore even back in the 2000s. It's a good thing.

Those kind of trips were banned c. 2009 by congress. Food is still allowed, but many individual clinics/hospitals/universities have banned it. I personally welcome my free lunches, as long as they bring enough for all the staff.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Those kind of trips were banned c. 2009 by congress. Food is still allowed, but many individual clinics/hospitals/universities have banned it. I personally welcome my free lunches, as long as they bring enough for all the staff.

Wasn't where I worked. Reps were not allowed to bring any food at all. Might not be law, but I doubt my hospital was the only one that banned it like you said. This was around 2009.

 

[C2FOAL]

Okay I’ll bite and you are right I’ll stay away from the ad hominems which you call me out for but then go on to do the same. I am not a self hating DO nor am I a wannabe MD. I use some OMM, mainly sports medicine stuff. The fact is academic medicine as a whole is a hierarchy regardless of degree. That is where the prejudice is for specialty selection. We are aware of this. That is where we shouldn’t have merged residencies but that ship has sailed. I’ve unfortunately endured the same amount of abuse from my MD and DO higher ups. Once you are out of academic medicine no one cares and you are treated equal. I’m still going to treat how I was trained in med school and residency and that is as an osteopathic physician

If you want to call that MDs trying to stay atop the hierarchy then fine. We as DOs should’ve kept up with residency development instead of opening up a million schools. We should have created more and wide ranged fellowship programs so that we wouldn’t have been strong armed into residency merging. We as DOs play a large part in that as well

You are correct that medicine as a whole ( but not just “academic medicine” ) operates through a hierarchical system. I submit that this system is not working well for any of us, wherever we fall in the hierarchy, and that the energy many posters here put into punching down at whomever they see as beneath their particular level could be far more beneficially deployed. The problem is that mistreatment such as you have experienced is clearly not caused by/ the fault of mid level or alternate medicine practitioners who many on this thread fear as competitors and who they deride so savagely and inelegantly. As you alluded to, those pulling the strings have no true allegiance to anyone. They are equally sanguine slaving any (often heavily indebted) professional worker, whether MD, DO, DC, ND/ NP ( and so on) to assure a robust bottom line. The key to their success is establishing and strictly maintaining the hierarchy such that those on the lower rungs scrabble after the scraps, fighting amongst themselves to maintain their own ( often tenuous) position and feeling derision of those lower down necessary as a means to rise or keep afloat.

As to the “ad hominem” you reference, my apologies. What they represent was not meant as personal attack or invective. Rather, it was an attempt to distill the spirit of discourse on display throughout this thread. Such phrasing is meaningful to those who doggedly insist on perpetuating the degenerate system that exploits them. As you rightly observe, DOs jumped on the chance to be “equal” to MDs with alacrity, (All but shedding OMM, I believe).The chance to climb that ladder outweighed reservations about what sort of outcome might be expected from alliance with competitors who not long ago openly derided them as quacks.
You worked hard in medical school and continue to do so in your practice. YOU know the value of your education, experience and commitment to providing good quality care, even in spite of this messed up system. Good for you and all like-acting DOs. I just struggle to see why many on these threads, intelligent people gifted with opportunity, fail to cultivate introspection and empathy In their skill set.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Wasn't where I worked. Reps were not allowed to bring any food at all. Might not be law, but I doubt my hospital was the only one that banned it like you said. This was around 2009.

It wasn't law, and your hospital wasn't.

But food is still allowed by law.

 

[Splenda88]

It wasn't law, and your hospital wasn't.

But food is still allowed by law.

I think $$$ is still allowed.

I got $1500 honorarium payment last year for spending 2 hrs on a conference call and then answering some multiple choice questions, which they gave almost 2 wks to complete.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I think $$$ is still allowed.

I got $1500 honorarium payment last year for spending 2 hrs on a conference call and then answering some multiple choice questions, which they gave almost 2 wks to complete.

Yeah if you perform a service. It used to be they could do way more just to talk to you.

 

[Chlorophyll Oracle]

I have to be honest, I dont care what school you went to unless its crazy impressive. I also dont care about MD vs DO. I go MD but dont view my DO counterparts as anything other than comrades. We are equal degrees and equally qualified. In fact, I'm grateful for DOs because they are additional help in the fight against the real threat in my mind, which is allied health profession encroachment

 

[deleted1068453]

I think the prestige thing is toxic. I don't think hierarchy is bad. But we should question the organization and the method by which our hierarchies create themselves. As a society we are waking up to injustices. If we extend the idea that structural bias creates opportunities for certain segments of our population while neglecting, or actively undermining others. If we extend this idea to health care workers (which we should), we have to ask what the biases are? who benefits? and what is the outcome of that bias?

Race, gender, and identity of course play a huge role. And I deeply hope, as we all should, that they continue to be addressed, and we make amends for these failures. But, IMHO, the most powerful bias in our medical system today is social currency/clout. If I believe you make my organization/team more prestigious; if you increase the social perception of my organizations narrative, then I support you. It is a constantly shifting standard. It sacrifices those with social deficits or low social ambition. It transforms our ability to succeed in our careers into our potential to draw attention to ourselves and minimize the success of others. When I am on campus, I feel like my soul is being pressured to pose for an instagram picture.

These ideas are incorrect. I'm sure. I'm one of those who detests networking, hasn't been on social media since before Obama's second term, and after more times than I care to share-where I wholeheartedly sought out friendships, mentors, and somewhere to call "home" in medical school, only to be quietly repressed to the irrelevant social margin, I have come to fully regret my decision to attend a top 50 MD school. I wish instead I would have attended that small DO school in Colorado where I chatted and laughed with the security guard for two hours before my interview. I wish I would not have turned down a DO/PhD program in Michigan because I read in so many places that it didn't mean anything to be dual degree physician without the MD. The profile of a successful medical school student is, IMO, someone who gets ahead. (AKA someone who, through some means, obtains prestige). That is the only common denominator I've seen. There are some that work hard... but MUCH more often, they seem to be individuals who were born into a head start, and were conditioned to believe they deserved and had earned that head start. Had I known that so much of my life would be consumed by my social relevance before I choose this life, I would have made a drastically different decision.

If I eventually decide to leave medical school, this will be the reason why. The culture is heinous.

 

[Dave1980]

I think the prestige thing is toxic.

I have come to fully regret my decision to attend a top 50 MD school.

Humblebrag shout out top 50 MD school while simultaneously saying prestige is toxic during a rambling and somewhat incoherent rant. Interesting...

 

[deleted1068453]

Humblebrag shout out top 50 MD school while simultaneously saying prestige is toxic during a rambling and somewhat incoherent rant. Interesting...

lol. no, i'm not bragging. its a bad joke. there is nothing special about these schools. Almost anyone with a high amount of support and resources could academically succeed here. Getting into medical school is IMO 40% luck and 60% right amount of posturing. And the vast majority of people extol the prestige of these schools. But the thing I've experience most here is to feel ignored and unimportant because I don't fit a social mold for self-promotion. I make no claims to being anything special because I attend this school, I fell for the prestige lie. And I'm unhappy for it.

Apologies for my incoherent rant. your one sentence criticism is arguably uninformative and emotionally unempathetic.

 

[Dave1980]

Apologies for my incoherent rant. your one sentence criticism is arguably uninformative and emotionally unempathetic.

it struck the exact tone i was going for!

 

[DrOngoGablogian]

it struck the exact tone i was going for!

Lol I love this board, virtually every thread turns hostile in a hilarious way. Protrash—can you elaborate more what is bugging you about your school choice? What sort of extra attention do you think a DO school would have given you?

 

[deleted1068453]

Lol I love this board, virtually every thread turns hostile in a hilarious way. Protrash—can you elaborate more what is bugging you about your school choice? What sort of extra attention do you think a DO school would have given you?

Its chill. I can't explain it without being incoherent. I agree with Mr. Dave a little bit. Its a hard thing to express. Being rude to a stranger for expressing their ideas is something I don't fully agree with but anyway... I can say that I've never felt a long term sense of oppressive, silent judgment like I have from my peers and advisors at this school. Maybe its premature for me to think a less competitive school would be any better. But I'm not green to the world, I lived a relatively full life before medical school. And there has been no other setting where I've felt that the pissing contest was more important than it is here.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Its chill. I can't explain it without being incoherent. I agree with Mr. Dave a little bit. Its a hard thing to express. Being rude to a stranger for expressing their ideas is something I don't fully agree with but anyway... I can say that I've never felt a long term sense of oppressive, silent judgment like I have from my peers and advisors at this school. Maybe its premature for me to think a less competitive school would be any better. But I'm not green to the world, I lived a relatively full life before medical school. And there has been no other setting where I've felt that the pissing contest was more important than it is here.

1. Dave is a physician, so it’s Dr. Dave

2. I don’t think it’s universal. My school is nothing like that.

 

[Taddy Mason]

It hasn't been allowed for a while. I remember when that used to happen, and it got stopped. Reps weren't even allowed to bring bagels in for the staff anymore even back in the 2000s. It's a good thing.

The trips and **** still happen they just find work arounds to make it appear kosher. I worked on clinical trials prior to med school (2012-2014) and my PIs and I were regularly flown to, and put up in nice hotels, etc. for “conferences” pertaining to the trials we were involved with. There was plenty of wining and dinning and recreational “team building” activities that were covered completely by the pharma companies. It was common for ~1/4 of the trip and conferences to be legitimately work related.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The trips and **** still happen they just find work arounds to make it appear kosher. I worked on clinical trials prior to med school (2012-2014) and my PIs and I were regularly flown to, and put up in nice hotels, etc. for “conferences” pertaining to the trials we were involved with. There was plenty of wining and dinning and recreational “team building” activities that were covered completely by the pharma companies. It was common for ~1/4 of the trip and conferences to be legitimately work related.

Yeah one time the surgeon I worked for and I got invited to a “conference” for a medical device. It was basically just a fancy dinner trying to wine and dine, but it did have a speaker and some visuals. Food was great.

Though I will say, I was working with another surgeon about a year later and we ran into problems with what he normally used, so I suggested the thing I went to the dinner for and showed him how to use it, and it worked haha. So I guess it wasn’t all bad.

 

[C2FOAL]

it struck the exact tone i was going for!

Who hurt you Dr. Dave?

 

[Sleepingdoc]

you are delusional. DOs are the same as MDs. There are plenty prestige ****** and plenty DOs that partook in things such as causing the opioid epidemic. This is the same prejudice that younger MDs and DOs alike have been fighting to overcome from the old guard. Full stop. We are both physicians. We are the same role.

edited for grammar and spelling lol. Night shift is killing me

"DNP's" are a nurse, period.
Its just like calling garbage man a maintenance "engineer"... just a fancy name added to the nursing degree.

 

[Dwan]

These ideas are incorrect. I'm sure. I'm one of those who detests networking, hasn't been on social media since before Obama's second term, and after more times than I care to share-where I wholeheartedly sought out friendships, mentors, and somewhere to call "home" in medical school, only to be quietly repressed to the irrelevant social margin, I have come to fully regret my decision to attend a top 50 MD school. I wish instead I would have attended that small DO school in Colorado where I chatted and laughed with the security guard for two hours before my interview. I wish I would not have turned down a DO/PhD program in Michigan because I read in so many places that it didn't mean anything to be dual degree physician without the MD. The profile of a successful medical school student is, IMO, someone who gets ahead. (AKA someone who, through some means, obtains prestige). That is the only common denominator I've seen. There are some that work hard... but MUCH more often, they seem to be individuals who were born into a head start, and were conditioned to believe they deserved and had earned that head start. Had I known that so much of my life would be consumed by my social relevance before I choose this life, I would have made a drastically different decision.

If I eventually decide to leave medical school, this will be the reason why. The culture is heinous.

I didn't know security guards at DO schools were more laid back and sociable than security guards at top 50 MD schools.

 

[DO2015CA]

"DNP's" are a nurse, period.
Its just like calling garbage man a maintenance "engineer"... just a fancy name added to the nursing degree.

Lol what? I didn’t say anything about DNPs. .. but I agree

 

[Sleepingdoc]

"DNP's" are a nurse, period.
Its just like calling garbage man a maintenance "engineer"... just a fancy name added to the nursing degree.

Sorry, I was trying to answer another thread, somehow I posted in the wrong thread...LOL.

 

[deleted1068453]

I didn't know security guards at DO schools were more laid back and sociable than security guards at top 50 MD schools.

Thats what I was implying.... as well as the professors, deans, students. And its not even about being laid back... its about being a real person. And a kind person.

 

[DrOngoGablogian]

Thats what I was implying.... as well as the professors, deans, students. And its not even about being laid back... its about being a real person. And a kind person.

I dunno dude, I just can’t really get behind your whole premise. I’m sure that security guard was a great guy—but, that’s like, not the point of why you were there you know? Why would you want to spend 2 hours talking to a random dude instead of the people who might potentially be your classmates for the next 4 years? And I definitely get it if you’re response is that well all those people sucked because sure I’d take a fun, friendly stranger over a d-bag acquaintance/peer any day too.

But... still—you don’t have to put in the work it takes to get to that interview just to talk to a friendly guy. There’s friendly people all over and they’ll talk to you without you having to jump through hoops. Just kinda seems like you had a mentality about it all already in your head before you got there, and when you got there you sought to confirm the mentality.

It’s like going to Disney world and only taking pictures with the cashiers at the parking lot entrances, because that Mickey is a self-absorbed SOB.

 

[deleted1068453]

I dunno dude, I just can’t really get behind your whole premise. I’m sure that security guard was a great guy—but, that’s like, not the point of why you were there you know? Why would you want to spend 2 hours talking to a random dude instead of the people who might potentially be your classmates for the next 4 years? And I definitely get it if you’re response is that well all those people sucked because sure I’d take a fun, friendly stranger over a d-bag acquaintance/peer any day too.

But... still—you don’t have to put in the work it takes to get to that interview just to talk to a friendly guy. There’s friendly people all over and they’ll talk to you without you having to jump through hoops. Just kinda seems like you had a mentality about it all already in your head before you got there, and when you got there you sought to confirm the mentality.

It’s like going to Disney world and only taking pictures with the cashiers at the parking lot entrances, because that Mickey is a self-absorbed SOB.

LMAO! I appreciate the perspective. To be honest, that sounds like something similar to what a younger, teenage version of myself would have done in certain situations. Finding a strong sense of community is one of the primary motivators in my life, and I would gladly sacrifice certain definitions "success" for stronger community bonds. This "security guard vs my peers" analogy isn't something I meditate on frequently. I was using it to try to prove my point.

I don't want to get specific about my experiences here for fear of my anonymity. But... well. I've had many interactions like this, but one of the most prominent in my mind was inviting my partner to a private class function. The administration had rented out a local venue and you had to show your badge to get in. My partner arrived a little bit after I did. Upon introducing her to some of my classmates, in front of a group of maybe 6 or 7, the first response is from one of the most vocal students in my class, "how did you get in here?" Accompanied by a very hostile expression. My partner and I are quite, non-confrontational people and we were both very confused if this was actually hostility or we had misinterpreted. We looked at each other with concern. "umm...we..just..." but our conversation was cut short as the student pulled the group a few steps away and started conversing amongst themselves.

That is such a small thing, but it is pervasive. It feels nasty and hurtful. Countless times with peers. With the "mentors" it feels more like a quite, playcating until the problem just goes away. Its minor enough that theres nothing to really be done about it, aside from complain on SDN. (SORRY)

All I'm trying to say is, maybe theres a inverse correlation between prestige and community. At interviews, the community is touted at my school. In practice, its been something thats made me consider a leave of absence or even discontinuing with my education.