Med School Tiers?

[Deleted member 737595]

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I can clearly see you’re trying to make a point, but let’s work this out in a thought experiment.

If we went to two different undergraduate institutions and both took general physics, would you claim to know more physics than me if your university was better than mine? Would you say that you were more competent in physics or that you were more prepared to answer physics problems?

Did you know that only 5% of Columbia grads go into Gen Surg?

My school: 2%
U MA: 5%
Drexel: 5%
U Miami: 7%
Jefferson: 7%
Marshall: 7%
Mercer: 8%
For Creighton, it's 9%

I swear that there was one school that had some 15% go Gen Surg.

there ya go.

The argument that top schools get you in to top residencies ... and what does that mean? That top fellowships will be easier to get? Then what? I dont get this.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

You know what they call the guy who graduates from the lowest ranked medical school in the country? Doctor

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

there ya go.

The argument that top schools get you in to top residencies ... and what does that mean? That top fellowships will be easier to get? Then what? I dont get this.

That’s not what that list is saying. Columbia is a top school, and they have 5% in general surgery. Creighton, Jefferson and Drexel are in the lowest tier and they have higher general surgery matches. So what I believe @Goro is getting at is that it really doesn’t matter too much at all.

I don’t want to put words in Goro’s mouth though.

 

[Goro]

That’s not what that list is saying. Columbia is a top school, and they have 5% in general surgery. Creighton, Jefferson and Drexel are in the lowest tier and they have higher general surgery matches. So what I believe @Goro is getting at is that it really doesn’t matter too much at all.

I don’t want to put words in Goro’s mouth though.

Nope, you get it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Go to the ‘best’ school? Didnt we just determine that ranking has nothing to do with goodness of a school?

Yes we did. That has nothing to do with residency matching however.

So whats a top tier residency? Does THAT affect these things?

It can depend on the job you ultimately want. You want to just be a good community general surgeon? Then no, I would argue “top” residencies are worse for this as you often have to do 2 extra years of residency at these programs for research. You want to be faculty at MGH? Then yes it absolutely matters.

That top fellowships will be easier to get? Then what? I dont get this.

Yes they are. Again it depends on what kind of job you ultimately want. Many of the “top” programs, this is a generalizations and there are exceptions, are very highly academic and research oriented designed to produce clinician scientists. If you want that career arc then yes the program you go to matters, if you want to just be a good clinician then almost any accredited program will get you there.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

Did you know that only 5% of Columbia grads go into Gen Surg?

My school: 2%
U MA: 5%
Drexel: 5%
U Miami: 7%
Jefferson: 7%
Marshall: 7%
Mercer: 8%
For Creighton, it's 9%

I swear that there was one school that had some 15% go Gen Surg.

A lot of the top students - a highly ambitious bunch - are more interested in derm, rads, surgical subspecialites and the big IM subspecialties rather than gen surgery. So percentage matching to gen surg isn't a good indicator of the strength of a school's match list. In the latest match, 9 columbia students matched ortho, 8 derm.

 

[Goro]

A lot of the top students - a highly ambitious bunch - are more interested in derm, rads, surgical subspecialites and the big IM subspecialties rather than gen surgery. So percentage matching to gen surg isn't a good indicator of the strength of a school's match list. In the latest match, 9 columbia students matched ortho, 8 derm.

With that MCAT score I would have expected a better understanding of statistics. Your 9 and 8 Columbia students were 4% of the grads for Derm and 3% for Ortho.

My school: 0%
U MA: Derm 4% Ortho 2%
Drexel: 2% Ortho 4%
U Miami: 2% Ortho 4%
Jefferson: Derm 1%; Ortho 5%
Marshall: 3%each
Mercer: 0 each
Creighton: Derm 1; Ortho 4%

We can't discuss IM subspecialties because MSAR doesn't provide this info.

We can agree that going to Harvard/Stanford class schools does open more career opportunities.

Yet again I have to reiterate that one will get a fine medical education if one goes to JA Burns or Harvard; to U WA or U Miami, or U MN to U Tx-Galveston. The hyperacheivers here may be shocked, SHOCKED to learn that having a high Step I score, or getting into Harvard/Stanford class schools doesn't make them better human beings.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

A lot of the top students - a highly ambitious bunch - are more interested in derm, rads, surgical subspecialites and the big IM subspecialties rather than gen surgery. So percentage matching to gen surg isn't a good indicator of the strength of a school's match list. In the latest match, 9 columbia students matched ortho, 8 derm.

Right, but doesn't general surgery open up to other subspecialities, like onc surg, thoracic, GI, rect and col...?

Sorry if I sound ignorant...

 

[DubbiDoctor]

With that MCAT score I would have expected a better understanding of statistics. Your 9 and 8 Columbia students were 4% of the grads for Derm and 3% for Ortho.

My school: 0%
U MA: Derm 4% Ortho 2%
Drexel: 2% Ortho 4%
U Miami: 2% Ortho 4%
Jefferson: Derm 1%; Ortho 5%
Marshall: 3%each
Mercer: 0 each
Creighton: Derm 1; Ortho 4%

We can't discuss IM subspecialties because MSAR doesn't provide this info.

We can agree that going to Harvard/Stanford class schools does open more career opportunities.

Yet again I have to reiterate that one will get a fine medical education if one goes to JA Burns or Harvard; to U WA or U Miami, or U MN to U Tx-Galveston. The hyperacheivers here may be shocked, SHOCKED to learn that having a high Step I score, or getting into Harvard/Stanford class schools doesn't make them better human beings.

Haha, I thought about editing the post to clarify that I wasn't confusing percentages with raw numbers but I decided against it.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

Right, but doesn't general surgery open up to other subspecialities, like onc surg, thoracic, GI, rect and col...?

Sorry if I sound ignorant...

It does, but I think the trend is more toward categorical programs - e.g. matching to thoracic, plastics or vascular right after M4. In general, general surgery residents have lower stats than surgical sub-specialists, and are relatively more likely to come from non-brand name med schools. That being said, if you develop a strong enough application, you can get into any field coming from a US MD schools. Most DO schools even have students occasionally matching into derm, ortho and even neurosurgery, just at a lower rate.

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

Right, but doesn't general surgery open up to other subspecialities, like onc surg, thoracic, GI, rect and col...?

Sorry if I sound ignorant...

Don't worry, you don't sound ignorant. You shouldn't apologize for asking questions.

General surgery does open up a lot of sub-specialties, except a few (like Ortho or Neuro). Although as @DubbiDoctor stated above, some sub-specialties offer integrated programs that allow you to finish in a shorter period of time.

For example, you could do general surgery and try to switch to a plastic surgery program after 3 years (Or complete all 5 years and then specialize in plastics) or go to a 6 year integrated residency for plastic surgery, which would generally shave some time off of your training.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

Don't worry, you don't sound ignorant. You shouldn't apologize for asking questions.

General surgery does open up a lot of sub-specialties, except a few (like Ortho or Neuro). Although as @DubbiDoctor stated above, some sub-specialties offer integrated programs that allow you to finish in a shorter period of time.

For example, you could do general surgery and try to switch to a plastic surgery program after 3 years (Or complete all 5 years and then specialize in plastics) or go to a 6 year integrated residency for plastic surgery, which would generally shave some time off of your training.

Thanks for the clarification. Its just that these subspecialties aren't on the MSAR, so I assumed Gen Surg -> subspecialties.

 

[NITRAS]

Do your best, apply everywhere, and go to whichever school feels right.

Imagine how it feels to come out of med school with <$100k with debt. Then imagine coming out with $400k in debt.
Then remember, you can't bankrupt your student loans, they can garnish your wages with a simple letter, you cannot negotiate a settlement, and your interest rates will be between 5-7%. Even if some of it is forgiven (someday), its considered taxable income. It will set you back a decade or two financially plus lost time you spent in training. You'd have been better off doing something else.

Then remember that your Step 1 score is 98% of what makes you competitive for residency programs. All interns are pretty much stupid on day 1, and most everyone is pretty competent by the time they graduate.

How does that make you feel? If you have that option its a no brainer.

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

Imagine how it feels to come out of med school with <$100k with debt. Then imagine coming out with $400k in debt.
Then remember, you can't bankrupt your student loans, they can garnish your wages with a simple letter, you cannot negotiate a settlement, and your interest rates will be between 5-7%. Even if some of it is forgiven (someday), its considered taxable income. It will set you back a decade or two financially plus lost time you spent in training. You'd have been better off doing something else.

Then remember that your Step 1 score is 98% of what makes you competitive for residency programs. All interns are pretty much stupid on day 1, and most everyone is pretty competent by the time they graduate.

How does that make you feel? If you have that option its a no brainer.

I never said don't go somewhere cheep, I just said maybe go somewhere where you won't hate yourself for the next 4 years. (More than you already will for having to study all day every day)