med vs. aviation

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swoop

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I know this is not exactly medicine related, but this is the best place I could think of to ask. How does becoming an aviator (military, obviously) compare to becoming a doctor? For arguments sake, assume you can compare the two. I am really only looking for generalities, such as which one is more difficult, competitive, the type of person who is successful, etc. I am in med school, but wanted to be a pilot when I was younger (secretly still do). Thanks for addressing a curiosity.
 
when I took the ASVAB in high school it said I should be a pilot #1, and a doctor #2... I'm currently a 3rd year. i know that has NO bearing on the discussion at hand, but hey, it gets my post count up... 🙂
 
I know this is not exactly medicine related, but this is the best place I could think of to ask. How does becoming an aviator (military, obviously) compare to becoming a doctor? For arguments sake, assume you can compare the two. I am really only looking for generalities, such as which one is more difficult, competitive, the type of person who is successful, etc. I am in med school, but wanted to be a pilot when I was younger (secretly still do). Thanks for addressing a curiosity.

Med school is the "back-door" way into being an AF/Navy pilot. You may be very happy as a flight surgeon.
 
While on call the other night, I was dutifully engaged in Operation Disimpaction: 90 y/o female c 3 days N/V and CONSTIPATION. Her belly was h-u-g-e. I got to write the orders for and implement soapy suds enimas q 1 hr. I started at 10:00 p.m. and was still going strong at 6:00 a.m.

I'd say that was nearly as fun as raging through the Alaskan mountains at low level/high speed, and dropping lots of bombs.

Yep..... go doctor all the way.🙄
 
I'm certain that medicine and aviation are the only careers I could do long-term in the military. Nothing else is really cool enough. I have a friend who was an F-16 pilot and who became severely disenfranchised with his job flying a civil defense role after 9/11, instead of blowing up terrorists. The future of badass (fighter pilot) aviation in the military really has become eclipsed by the UAV, which in a way is comparable to the death of the American cowboy. As a medical student I'm not sure if military medicine is going to be "the best career imaginable" but I'm enjoying the ride so far.

There are certainly satisfied pilots in all of the services, but most of the ones I've met fly rotary wing aircraft.

Do your best to choose wisely!
 
I know this is not exactly medicine related, but this is the best place I could think of to ask. How does becoming an aviator (military, obviously) compare to becoming a doctor? For arguments sake, assume you can compare the two. I am really only looking for generalities, such as which one is more difficult, competitive, the type of person who is successful, etc. I am in med school, but wanted to be a pilot when I was younger (secretly still do). Thanks for addressing a curiosity.

Fighter pilots are roughly the equivalent of surgeons in terms of mentality, competitiveness, attitude, attributes, etc. Internists are more like a tanker or transport pilots. Surgeons and fighter pilots tend to have a ultra competitive, "get 'er done", don't have time to mess around attitude. Internists and tanker transport guys are more laid back, "let's think about this", "we've got all the time in the world" type people. Just my opinion FWIW.
 
Not much to tell really. Flight surgeons are required to fly at least 4 hours a month in whatever plane their squadron flies. Some people, after being denied pilot training due to vision or whatever, go to med school, become a flight surgeon, and fly anyway (usually only in aircraft with only two seats.) I know docs that have dropped bombs (in training) and flown fighters off of carriers.
 
Fighter pilots are roughly the equivalent of surgeons in terms of mentality, competitiveness, attitude, attributes, etc. Internists are more like a tanker or transport pilots. Surgeons and fighter pilots tend to have a ultra competitive, "get 'er done", don't have time to mess around attitude. Internists and tanker transport guys are more laid back, "let's think about this", "we've got all the time in the world" type people. Just my opinion FWIW.


Ah yes. Ortho are the jocks, etc. You wanna be a surgeon, right? This is whats known as a stereotype and if you've ever watched a surgeon spend hours dissecting away at that thyroid or an internist running a code, you'll realize that it isn't that simple.

BTW, pilots don't necessarily get to pick their platform and it isn't always the best guys who end up flying jets. Kinda like the military match.
 
Not much to tell really. Flight surgeons are required to fly at least 4 hours a month in whatever plane their squadron flies. Some people, after being denied pilot training due to vision or whatever, go to med school, become a flight surgeon, and fly anyway (usually only in aircraft with only two seats.) I know docs that have dropped bombs (in training) and flown fighters off of carriers.

Is this also the best way for a doctor to become an astronaut?
 
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Ah yes. Ortho are the jocks, etc. You wanna be a surgeon, right? This is whats known as a stereotype and if you've ever watched a surgeon spend hours dissecting away at that thyroid or an internist running a code, you'll realize that it isn't that simple.

BTW, pilots don't necessarily get to pick their platform and it isn't always the best guys who end up flying jets. Kinda like the military match.

I agree that surgeons and fighter pilots are both unfairly stereotyped. I've seen surgeons meticulously disect epineurium from an ulnar nerve and I've seen fighter pilots spend hours in a CAP with multiple refuelings. I've also seen emergent spleenectomies at the bedside and ridden on 1 v 1 BFM and 2 v 4 ACT sorties. I've ridden with KC-10 crews on "short" 6hr sorties and rounded with hospitalists on 30+ patient census. I may be stereotyping, but I'm also speaking from experience, not just someone who's watched too much Top Gun or ER.

And yes, I am considering surgery...
 
Not much to tell really. Flight surgeons are required to fly at least 4 hours a month in whatever plane their squadron flies. Some people, after being denied pilot training due to vision or whatever, go to med school, become a flight surgeon, and fly anyway (usually only in aircraft with only two seats.) I know docs that have dropped bombs (in training) and flown fighters off of carriers.

I'm sorry, but I think people may be getting the wrong impression in what you are saying. Not you're fault out all, just people are probably misinterpreting what you are saying.

To clarify, flight surgeons fly in airframes, they ARE NOT the pilots. They ARE (for lack of a better term) "back enders". While they may fly in fighter planes, they are usually either a) Too busy seeing Sick Call, Annual physicals, Shop Visits, Whining/Hypochondriac dependents, Meetings (usually unrelated to our practice) or b) there is no room for them to fly. In addition, I found with most of my friends that are flight surgeons with fighter squadrons are having a hard time meeting their 4 hours/month flight requirement.

If you want to be a PILOT, you have to go to UPT (Undergraduate Pilot Training) but first you have to be released from your medical responsibilities (A hard task in and of itself). Not sure whether or not you have to go back to O-1 or not.

As for being an astronaut, we had a O-6 AF flight surgeon you was an "Astronaut" come in and give us a lecture at AMP. He had never gone in space and was instead doing all the physicals/sick call for NASA. I have heard stories of flight docs going into space, but I don't know who has done this and what requirements he had to complete. If you want to do this, they usually take the RAMs (Residents in Aerospace Medicine). The usual/frequent progression is FP/IM residency, 2 years minimum in that specialty, switch to Flight Medicine for 2-4 years, train in Aerospace Medicine (Combined with Occ Med/Public Health), enter into a Command position (i.e. Chief of Flight Med) with usual progression, then apply through NASA (as active duty or reserve). Other docs have done it different ways, but this seems to be the most direct approach. It goes without saying that this is HIGHLY competitive

...So to summarize, Med School IS NOT the "back door" into being a PILOT
 
... badass (fighter pilot) aviation ...

Just had to get on this one.

Fighters make great movies but bombers win wars. When the vipers check in over badguy land, they have a couple of bombs and 30 mins playtime. When a bomber checks in, we have a dozen TONS of bombs and a few hours of playtime. Bomber contrails in the sky give a warm fuzzy to friendly ground pounders.

As for medicine being a backdoor to becoming a pilot, not so. If you want to go to UPT you have to be younger than 27 yrs old or get an age waiver. If you are already a doc, chances are you will not be let out of your medical obligation until you are much too old to go fly jets. The few pilot physicians I've known all went to med school after becoming pilots. There is no age limit to become a doc.
 
I'm sorry, but I think people may be getting the wrong impression in what you are saying. Not you're fault out all, just people are probably misinterpreting what you are saying.

To clarify, flight surgeons fly in airframes, they ARE NOT the pilots.

...So to summarize, Med School IS NOT the "back door" into being a PILOT

This is all true, and I hope people are not misinterpreting my words. While a flight doc gets to fly in the plane, he will never be the "pilot" of the plane, even if he gets to hold the stick sometimes or push the bomb-dropping button.
 
Also doesn't flight school seems sort of limiting as a career choice? I mean even disregarding the 10 year obligation (if you get fixed wing), it just doesn't seem like it branches into that many other things if you don't like what you're doing. In medicine you at least retain the options of research, teaching, private practice, legal conultant/professional witness, and failing all else picking up another specialty. Is there anything else a pilot can do other than fly and teach flight?

At least for the pilots that are branched into tankers/transport from UPT, when they get out of the military they take jobs with the FAA and Airlines and make a hella-lot money. However, I met a former AWACS pilot last month who is now a High School teacher. I guess you never know.
 
If you want to do this, they usually take the RAMs (Residents in Aerospace Medicine). The usual/frequent progression is FP/IM residency, 2 years minimum in that specialty, switch to Flight Medicine for 2-4 years, train in Aerospace Medicine (Combined with Occ Med/Public Health), enter into a Command position (i.e. Chief of Flight Med) with usual progression, then apply through NASA (as active duty or reserve). Other docs have done it different ways, but this seems to be the most direct approach. It goes without saying that this is HIGHLY competitive

The Navy has a RAM program to, doesn't it? I haven't heard anyone talk about it, though...

Also, is USUHS the best med school for someone interested in such a path (as opposed to HMS, JHU, WUSTL, etc.)?
 
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Also, is USUHS the best med school for someone interested in such a path (as opposed to HMS, JHU, WUSTL, etc.)?
Probably not - as long as you do well, it really shouldn't matter where you got your MD from.
 
There have been 27 physician-astronauts (including candidate-selects) since the 70s. Of those, 18 have been civilians. Of the 9 military physician-astronauts, 7 have been Navy flight surgeons. Many of the Navy docs also had participated in flight training to become Naval Aviators, not just flight surgeons, and were command pilots of aircraft. There has been only one AF physician who has made it past the candidate stage, and the sole Army guy wasn't even an Army flight surgeon.

So I guess the biggest factor for success is being a Navy doc.
 
There have been 27 physician-astronauts (including candidate-selects) since the 70s. Of those, 18 have been civilians. Of the 9 military physician-astronauts, 7 have been Navy flight surgeons. Many of the Navy docs also had participated in flight training to become Naval Aviators, not just flight surgeons, and were command pilots of aircraft. There has been only one AF physician who has made it past the candidate stage, and the sole Army guy wasn't even an Army flight surgeon.

So I guess the biggest factor for success is being a Navy doc.

Is there a list of these people anywhere?

Also, I have heard of a 2-year Space Medicine fellowship offered (presumably for FPs?) jointly by the University of Texas/NASA. Does anyone know about this program?
 
I know this is not exactly medicine related, but this is the best place I could think of to ask. How does becoming an aviator (military, obviously) compare to becoming a doctor? For arguments sake, assume you can compare the two. I am really only looking for generalities, such as which one is more difficult, competitive, the type of person who is successful, etc. I am in med school, but wanted to be a pilot when I was younger (secretly still do). Thanks for addressing a curiosity.

Swoop,

I realize this is in the military med section, but you don't have to do it that way. I'm an M.D. and a pilot for a major airline. I went civilian for both. Started with aviation, climbed the ladder and made the goal - then got furloughed after 9/11, and went to med school.

A friend of mine went to med school, became an anesthesiologist, and learned to fly after that. He steadily climbed the civilian ladder and made it to a major airline as well. When he got laid off after 9/11, he went back to making $1200/day passing gas full time.

Aviation beats working for a living, but you have to have a good fallback plan 😉

Scott
 
I know a guy who after med school became an ER doc, got an age waiver, and flys F-22's.

Don't ask me how.
 
During the year I did my branch selection. It seemed that everyone in my commissioning class wanted either Aviation, Military Intelligence, or Medical Service Corps. Only the "top third" of us matched in these branches.
If army branch selection were correlated to the NRMP match as far as competitiveness and characteristics, I wonder how things would compare. Maybe...
Aviation= Neurosurgery or RadOnc
MI= Plastic Surgery or Psych(not competitiveness-wise)
Medical Service= Dermatology or Ortho
Military Police= Radiology
Chemical Corps= Pathology
Armor= Family
Quartermaster= Peds
Signal= Anesthesiology
ADA= Neuro
FA= OB/GYN
Engineers= Emergency
Infantry= Medicine
Finance= Optho/Urology/ENT
Transpo= PM & R

What do you think?
 
Is becoming an aviator really as competitive as becoming a neurosurgeon? I am surprised because the latter job seems so much more cerebral (no pun intended).
 
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I think you should put down the crack pipe. Finance = ****** who is too dumb to be a cop. Ophthal/Uro/ENT are near the top of the heap.

Really?!? I was under a completely different impression. Everyone I know who wanted to do Finance had to do 3 years of infantry first, even if they were near the top of the national OML. Maybe it's not as competitive as I thought.
 
No. In my experience and that of my buddies, becoming an aviator isn't *that* hard. Different rates for different branches, and flying jets vs c130s is a different story, but it still isn't as tough to get as you might think.

Is becoming an aviator really as competitive as becoming a neurosurgeon? I am surprised because the latter job seems so much more cerebral (no pun intended).
 
I'm sorry, but I think people may be getting the wrong impression in what you are saying. Not you're fault out all, just people are probably misinterpreting what you are saying.

To clarify, flight surgeons fly in airframes, they ARE NOT the pilots. They ARE (for lack of a better term) "back enders". While they may fly in fighter planes, they are usually either a) Too busy seeing Sick Call, Annual physicals, Shop Visits, Whining/Hypochondriac dependents, Meetings (usually unrelated to our practice) or b) there is no room for them to fly. In addition, I found with most of my friends that are flight surgeons with fighter squadrons are having a hard time meeting their 4 hours/month flight requirement.

If you want to be a PILOT, you have to go to UPT (Undergraduate Pilot Training) but first you have to be released from your medical responsibilities (A hard task in and of itself). Not sure whether or not you have to go back to O-1 or not.

As for being an astronaut, we had a O-6 AF flight surgeon you was an "Astronaut" come in and give us a lecture at AMP. He had never gone in space and was instead doing all the physicals/sick call for NASA. I have heard stories of flight docs going into space, but I don't know who has done this and what requirements he had to complete. If you want to do this, they usually take the RAMs (Residents in Aerospace Medicine). The usual/frequent progression is FP/IM residency, 2 years minimum in that specialty, switch to Flight Medicine for 2-4 years, train in Aerospace Medicine (Combined with Occ Med/Public Health), enter into a Command position (i.e. Chief of Flight Med) with usual progression, then apply through NASA (as active duty or reserve). Other docs have done it different ways, but this seems to be the most direct approach. It goes without saying that this is HIGHLY competitive

...So to summarize, Med School IS NOT the "back door" into being a PILOT


Do gas/EM have any disadvantages as compared to FP/IM for this route?
 
I know a guy who after med school became an ER doc, got an age waiver, and flys F-22's.

Don't ask me how.

You mean he went to UPT after med school? That is pretty amazing seeing as how the Raptor program was only taking guys with a previous Fighter background.
 
Hey swoop,
I am the exact same way as you and I still harbor a love of flight. My goal is to fly as many days as possible, treat as many patients as possible, and teach at least one class in something a couple days a week. Sound like a lot? Medicine is the only way to do all that. It took me three years to figure that out and I researched it pretty extensively and came up with several options:

1). Flight Surgeon:
This is the most obvious, but as other people have pointed out, you don't actually get to be the PIC. Some cool flying though. But the medicine really isn't that interesting as you are taking care of the world's healthiest population. And you only get to fly one day a week.

2). Flight Physician:
Rarely, medical helicopters at large teaching institutions will fly a resident and a nurse or a physician and a nurse. This is pretty cool as you get to work in the ED and are on call to go on the chopper while you work. It's also pretty rewarding, the medicine is interesting, and flying in the chopper is pretty cool. Again, not PIC, but cool flying. These positions are very rare and likely to get rarer as costs get squeezed. There are lots of positions for fixed wing transport, the Air Force has an especially cool program where you are a critical care doc transporting wounded back to the states.

3). Transplant Surgeon:
If you are on a retrieval team, you will probably get to fly at least once a week on a helicopter or airplane to go pick up an organ. Make sure you like transplant surgery though as it is a 5 year slog through general surgery and then a 2 year fellowship and after all that, the lifestyle really sucks. Again, not PIC.

4). Flying Doctor
Two options here: there is a program in Australia called the Royal Flying Doctors. These guys fly into the outback in Australia and do family practice and medical retrieval. They fly every day and get to do good medicine for some people who really need it. Disadvantages....two words...Australia.
The other option here is to do your own thing. This is the track that I finally settled on after I found out it was possible. There are tons of doctors who are also pilots and there is a whole volunteer organization called Angel Flight based around volunteer pilots who transport people to medical care. There are also lots of doctors who practice in a rural setting and fly from their home base to treat the people in these small towns. This seems like the best of all worlds to me.

My plan: During med school, I will get my flying fix however I can (connections, ride-alongs, other pilots). I'm gonna figure out which field I like and try to get into a residency where there are mountains. During residency, I'm going to learn how to paraglide (poor mans wings) or moonlight at a helicopter operation (ER or anesthesiology). After that, most of my extra cash will go into saving for an airplane of some kind and establishing a rural practice. If this sounds unrealistic, it probably is, but you gotta have dreams and it's better to dream too big than not at all. Good luck and hope that helps.
 
just curious if there is an age limit on being a flight surgeon. like say if one graduates medical school and becomes a flight surgeon with the Navy.. by the way I'm currently a Naval Officer (reservist) Ensign
 
I was going to start a new thread on this subject, but I decided to do a search first. Good thing I did. 🙂

Anyway, my goal is to be an astronaut. I know that's a lofty career goal (over 4,000 applicants for 20 spots 😱 ), but I figure it's worth a shot. Right now, there are 7 physician and 1 veterinarian active astronauts. I was expecting there to be a pattern as far as the specialties, but they were kind of all over the place. There was an internist, an orthopedic surgeon, a couple physicians who only completed internships, and an EM resident who apparently left in his second year to become an astronaut.

I guess my main question is to Coastie: why do you think EM and anesthesia have an advantage over other specialties?
 
Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am, but if you want to be an astronaut it seems to make a whole lot more sense to apply as a civilian to me. I mean apart from becoming a jet pilot because you want to pilot the space shuttle, not just go up on it; I don't recall ever reading about any special need to be in the military. Just seems it would be easier to get to be an astronaut without the military owning you.

Also it's my understanding that all the MD does is give you some extra credentials to make you stand out from the others who want to go into space. Which would lead me to believe that the sole reason Gas and EM are more successful is due to the personality type those fields tend to attract (or possibly in the case of military Docs, the path their careers tend to run) rather than any preference NASA has for specialty training...
 
Yeah, I was planning on applying as a civilian. I just posted in this thread because it already existed, and I didn't want to start a new one. From looking at the astronaut profiles, it seems like they don't really care what you study. There are geologists, physicists, astronomers, chemists, biologists, engineers, doctors, friggin' veterinarians... They say--and it seems to be true--that they want someone who excels in their field. So if you go into medicine, I guess the idea is to just do what you want to do and do it well.
 
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There have been 27 physician-astronauts (including candidate-selects) since the 70s. Of those, 18 have been civilians. Of the 9 military physician-astronauts, 7 have been Navy flight surgeons. Many of the Navy docs also had participated in flight training to become Naval Aviators, not just flight surgeons, and were command pilots of aircraft. There has been only one AF physician who has made it past the candidate stage, and the sole Army guy wasn't even an Army flight surgeon.

So I guess the biggest factor for success is being a Navy doc.


Can you post the link for where you found this info?
 
Can you post the link for where you found this info?
From the NASA astronaut factbook, which you can find here. You can search through all the past and present astronauts to see which ones have degrees in medicine. The ones associated with the military have their rank and branch of service in their blurb. Otherwise, you can search them out on the web to find more information.

By and large though, being in the military isn't a shortcut to becoming a physician-astronaut. There really doesn't appear to be any preferred medical specialty either. As has been said before, it's probably better to do what you enjoy and excel at it.
 
Not much to tell really. Flight surgeons are required to fly at least 4 hours a month in whatever plane their squadron flies. Some people, after being denied pilot training due to vision or whatever, go to med school, become a flight surgeon, and fly anyway (usually only in aircraft with only two seats.) I know docs that have dropped bombs (in training) and flown fighters off of carriers.

does it mean that a pilot let a doctor seat in his seat while he sat in the back without the controls? after all Hornets(or other navy fighters) don't have 2seat controls.
 
Also doesn't flight school seems sort of limiting as a career choice? I mean even disregarding the 10 year obligation (if you get fixed wing), it just doesn't seem like it branches into that many other things if you don't like what you're doing. In medicine you at least retain the options of research, teaching, private practice, legal conultant/professional witness, and failing all else picking up another specialty. Is there anything else a pilot can do other than fly and teach flight?

They can get a harvard mba.
 
does it mean that a pilot let a doctor seat in his seat while he sat in the back without the controls? after all Hornets(or other navy fighters) don't have 2seat controls.

I'm sure there are some cases and instances where the pilot may let a FS take control, but as others have mentioned in this thread already (sethco and Flightfire namely), I doubt that is the norm.

Look at it this way: in the Navy at least (http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/NAMI/Academics/flightsurgeon.htm), flight surgeons do go through the six week API, or Aviation Preflight Indoctrination, with aviators and NFOs-to-be. After that, FS undergo an *abbreviated* ten week flight course (Phase III training as listed on that link). I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't be comfortable actually flying whatever kind of aircraft with just ten weeks of training when the pilots go through, what, 1.5 to 2 years of training?

Add the fact that it seems that Army and AF flight surgeons have an even shorter training sequence... "fly" from everything I've heard really means "be in the air" for a certain number of hours every month. Anything else is just icing on the cake.
 
I'm sure there are some cases and instances where the pilot may let a FS take control, but as others have mentioned in this thread already (sethco and Flightfire namely), I doubt that is the norm.

Look at it this way: in the Navy at least (http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/NAMI/Academics/flightsurgeon.htm), flight surgeons do go through the six week API, or Aviation Preflight Indoctrination, with aviators and NFOs-to-be. After that, FS undergo an *abbreviated* ten week flight course (Phase III training as listed on that link). I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't be comfortable actually flying whatever kind of aircraft with just ten weeks of training when the pilots go through, what, 1.5 to 2 years of training?

Add the fact that it seems that Army and AF flight surgeons have an even shorter training sequence... "fly" from everything I've heard really means "be in the air" for a certain number of hours every month. Anything else is just icing on the cake.

so basically doctors who talk about their "flying experience" are no different from a civilian who got a ppl and thinks he's a fighter pilot(i assume most of thsoe doing the bragging do have ppl that they earned on their own time).
 
that's what it sounds like to me. I'm a Naval Officer right now (reservist) who's hoping to lateral transfer into the Medical Corps via the HPSP. I always wanted to be a pilot and am getting older (26) and got the M.D. bug about 8 months ago and have been plugging away at my pre-reqs ever since. I found out about the Flight Surgeon gig and thought it would be a great way to hybrid my desire to be a doc and pilot as well. and I hear that as long as you're physically qualified then you're good to go. so sign me up! my biggest obstacle is going to be just getting a signoff from my reserve Command releasing me from the Supply corps.
 
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