All Branch Topic (ABT) Medical Corps Promotions

[llamaoverlord]

---

Members don't see this ad.

How often do regular doctors in the military get promoted to high ranking officers such as colonel or brigadier general? How long does it take for them to get that high? What are some things you need to do to get that high?

 

[Slevin]

Assuming no prior service and coming straight out of med school promotion to major will take 6 years. Promotion to LTC will take another 6 years as far as I know

 

[backrow]

What are some things you need to do to get that high?

Give up clinical medicine and sell your soul to the business/administrative side of the hospital.

The signature line in the Navy these days is: "Ever increasing responsibility in increased challenging jobs." (Or something like that)

 

[Perrotfish]

How often do regular doctors in the military get promoted to high ranking officers such as colonel or brigadier general? How long does it take for them to get that high? What are some things you need to do to get that high?

There are about half a dozen one star positions in the Navy, a couple of two star positions, and the head of the medical corps is a three star. There are no four star admiral/general doctors, the highest you can rise is three stars

You get there primarily by taking on a LOT of command responsibilities and doing well with them. You take on administrative roles and head committees in your hospital, then you take over departments, then you work as a SMO on a ship or as a regimental surgeon, then as XO of a small hospital or the head of some relatively high visibility administrative group. Then you work as the CO of a small hospital. Then the CO of a large hospital or the head of a medical region or some even higher visibility administrative group in Washington DC.... it keeps going. Usually people who want these jobs at some point have to take on 100% administrative roles and stop seeing clinic more than one day a week. Usually the ones who keep rising through the ranks also pick up some other administrative degrees in addition to their MD along the way

The highest you can rise by practicing purely medicine without doing full time admin roles varies over time. Sometimes pure clinical medicine and a good attitude is enough to get you to 0-6, sometimes it only gets you to 0-4. We're in a climate right now where you need some big admin roles to make 0-6, but you can definitely get to 0-6 in the military without ever going 100% administrative. Jobs that take up half your time (department head, residency program director, specialty leader) seem to be enough for people to get to O-6.

 

[Lee]

How often do regular doctors in the military get promoted to high ranking officers such as colonel or brigadier general? How long does it take for them to get that high? What are some things you need to do to get that high?

COL is frequent in the Army as long as you do all the appropriate schools and have served in a variety of positions. General is rare.

 

[pgg]

I don't believe O6 is possible in the Navy any more without at least a year, maybe two, of nearly 100% non-clinical admin work, timed correctly.

 

[backrow]

I don't believe O6 is possible in the Navy any more without at least a year, maybe two, of nearly 100% non-clinical admin work, timed correctly.

This sure does seem to be the rule of the land these days. I think making the major MTF CO's a CAPT billet was just the start to see fewer in the O5/O6 rank. If the hospital CO is an O6 why does the DSS/DMS/Dept Head/etc need to be a senior O5/O6 job. I think we are going to continue to see a trend of "downgrading" jobs.

 

[jabreal00]

COL is frequent in the Army as long as you do all the appropriate schools and have served in a variety of positions. General is rare.

Maybe 5-10 years ago. Getting to MAJ (04) is still fairly routine. However more and more are having to jump through hoops to get to LTC (05) weeding out many who are unsure whether to get out or stay in once their active duty obligation is up. To get to LTC in the Army, CCC is a must. There is a push now even for ILE (or whatever it's called) to be done as an 04. Becoming a COL (06) in this current environment is difficult and one has to be committed in doing all the necessary military courses (CCC, ILE etc) and volunteering or being assigned to various administrative committees and assignments. One can get to LTC (05) doing clinical medicine. The get to COL (06) there's a lot of administrative tasks involved.

 

[DD214_DOC]

It's getting more difficult. I know a few passed over for O6. A few didn't make O4 last year from my understanding. The Army wants people out it seems.

 

[Vandalia]

Until the 1990's, promotion to Colonel was pretty much automatic if you stuck around long enough. One line officer joked "4 out of every 3 medical corps officers are promoted to Colonel."

These days it is a lot more competitive. The general breakdown (basically start from the date of your M.D. degree):

Commission a Captain (USAF,USA): X
Promotion to Major X+6
Promotion to Lieutenant Colonel X+12
Promotion to Colonel X+18

The number of officers in each grade is fixed by law. The "opportunity" once your are past Major will depend on the number of vacancies in the grade you are being selected for. Since you are dealing with a relatively large population, the rate generally averages out to about the same every board for LTC/Col. By law, one becomes eligible for promotion to Brigadier General after serving one year as a Colonel. However, if you are lucky enough to be selected to Brig Gen - and the promotion rate is about 0.5% of Colonels - it is typically after 3-10 years as a Colonel. For MG/LTG it all depends on the vacancies. If none are projected that year, there will not be a board. The promotion rate to MG is a lot higher, about 50%. It has been said that promotion to O-8 is the service saying "we didn't screw up promoting you to O-7.)

MC members are eligible for "below the zone" promotion to LTC and Colonel. The AF loves them, the other services not nearly as much. So, if the promotion board determines you are "exceptionally well qualified", you can be promoted up to two years early for LTC and again for Colonel. So, the earliest you could theoretically make Colonel would be X+14, but again this would be very rare, probably about 1% of MC officers. At least in the AF, the ones with the "below-the-zone" promotions are usually the ones who are promoted to Brigadier General.

Promotion to Brigadier General and above has a large component of luck. I knew a terrific line officer who lost his promotion to Brig Gen because 6 months after he transferred, a pilot did an extremely stupid stunt with a B-52. I also knew someone who was a great guy, and as a reward was given a cushy post right before retirement in Tampa, FL. As US Central Command Surgeon. In 1990. Right place and the right time, and he was promoted to Brigadier General.

 

[68PGunner]

Ha, I could have been more specific. When I say schools, I mean CCC and Intermediate Level Education (ILE). Variety of positions = admin, operational, and clinical. Doing strictly clinical jobs is good if a doc has no interest in medical admin, but they won't likely get to COL. If a doc wants to be a top-quality physician and has no interest in medical admin, LTC is reasonably obtainable (although CCC is required and now ILE is seemingly becoming required).

If a physician wants to get into COL level (medical admin) work, it requires having a breadth of experience and knowledge of Army operations that usually cannot be obtained doing clinical only.

What do you need to do to make sure that you're promoted to O-5 by Yr 12 or 13 after medical graduation? Can you give specifics on current Army expectations? I don't care much about the O-6 promotion bc if I do stay in until retirement, I plan to punch out at my 20 Yr mark regardless of rank.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Silly aside question, but for the, "stamp" we use when signing stuff, is it alright to use a promotable status? I know it looks douchey, but is it ok? I only ask because as a subspecialist, it helps me stand out a bit and lets pts and others know that I've been around and doing this for a little while.

No biggie, just curious.

 

[Vandalia]

That is actually a very interesting question.

I believe the key factor is if your promotion list has been confirmed by the Senate. The Senate tends to get a bit touchy when the executive branch (in this case the military) jumps the gun on confirmations. Once the Senate confirmation has taken place, you have met the legal requirements for promotion and are basically waiting for a vacancy.

After Senate confirmation, I don't believe you would face a court martial for signing "XX. XX. XXX, Lt Col (Sel), USAF, MC, FS" I certainly saw plenty of documents by line and medical officers signed as such. It is probably more justified in the Army - if I remember correctly - where it would have your current rank with (P) to designate you have been selected for promotion.

I would check with the command section, but my guess would be that it is legitimate.

 

[backrow]

I know the whole sel/p thing is part of yalls culture, but as a navy guy it drives me bonkers. I really want to see someone use nonsel/np one of these days. I would give that person a nice firm handshake 🙂

 

[DD214_DOC]

That is actually a very interesting question.

I believe the key factor is if your promotion list has been confirmed by the Senate. The Senate tends to get a bit touchy when the executive branch (in this case the military) jumps the gun on confirmations. Once the Senate confirmation has taken place, you have met the legal requirements for promotion and are basically waiting for a vacancy.

After Senate confirmation, I don't believe you would face a court martial for signing "XX. XX. XXX, Lt Col (Sel), USAF, MC, FS" I certainly saw plenty of documents by line and medical officers signed as such. It is probably more justified in the Army - if I remember correctly - where it would have your current rank with (P) to designate you have been selected for promotion.

I would check with the command section, but my guess would be that it is legitimate.

How do I even tell if the Senate confirmation has occurred?

 

[Lee]

What do you need to do to make sure that you're promoted to O-5 by Yr 12 or 13 after medical graduation? Can you give specifics on current Army expectations? I don't care much about the O-6 promotion bc if I do stay in until retirement, I plan to punch out at my 20 Yr mark regardless of rank.

Getting to O-5 is essentially the same requirement as O-6: CCC, ILE, doing well in a mix of operational and clinical jobs.

 

[Lee]

How do I even tell if the Senate confirmation has occurred?

It's published in the Congressional Record. However, you'll get the information from branch well before the Senate confirmation gets published. Here's an example of recent general promotions: https://www.congress.gov/nomination/114th-congress/482

 

[DD214_DOC]

It's published in the Congressional Record. However, you'll get the information from branch well before the Senate confirmation gets published. Here's an example of recent general promotions: https://www.congress.gov/nomination/114th-congress/482

Ok. Other than the results list and sequence number, nobody has heard anything. I have a low sequence number but for MC I'm under the impression this doesn't mean anything since we cannot be promoted until at least our six-year mark

 

[psychbender]

I know the whole sel/p thing is part of yalls culture, but as a navy guy it drives me bonkers. I really want to see someone use nonsel/np one of these days. I would give that person a nice firm handshake 🙂

You know what's really weird? I saw the 'whatever rank, select' thing all the time with the Navy folk at the joint service hospital where I trained, and thought it was normal and expected. So, when I PCSed to an Army hospital and was picked up for O4, I signed my email CPT(P). A few others eventually told me its douchey in the Army.

 

[Vandalia]

Way back when, the Air Force Personnel Center website had the status for each promotion board, for example you could see when it cleared the Secretary of Defense, and also when the Senate confirmed the results. I don't know if that still exists.

Also keep in mind the Navy essentially caused Congress to ban most frocking of officers after they decided to "frock" about 1400 lieutenant commanders in the 90's.

 

[USArmyHPSP]

You know what's really weird? I saw the 'whatever rank, select' thing all the time with the Navy folk at the joint service hospital where I trained, and thought it was normal and expected. So, when I PCSed to an Army hospital and was picked up for O4, I signed my email CPT(P). A few others eventually told me its douchey in the Army.

In the real world there is an app for that. In the Army we have a Regulation for that. In this case AR 25-50, Chapter 6 paragraph 6-5, which (basically) states that unless you are in a position of higher authority (PD, DCCS, etc.) you do not use the (P).

Going way back, I seem to remember that it is also used on your OER.

 

[Kingfisher]

I just made my own stamp that only listed my name and degree (just like I was a civ so I can use it in both aspects of what I do). I just use that. No one has said anything to me yet...

 

[Vandalia]

This is the way it was years ago in the AF, but MC members were promoted on their "anniversary" date. So if you look at the biography of an AF MC officer with all "in-the-zone" promotions, all the promotions will be on the same day of the year.

For example, pulling one at random:

Captain: 20 May 1989
Major: 20 May 1995
Lt Col: 20 May 2001
Col: 20 May 2007

For a below-the-zone promotion, the officer is promoted AFTER all the above/in-the-zone officers from that board have been promoted. So unlike for line officers, the previous date-of-rank (which equals "sequence number" or equivalent) is pretty much irrelevant for MC officers. The only time it comes into play is determining which of the BPZ officers is promoted first.

So for MC officers with all in-the-zone promotions it is pretty easy, take your current date of rank, add 6 years, and voila!

The corollary of this is that it is possible your DOR comes and no one notices. Twice I actually had to call the CBPO (as it was called) on the day I was to be promoted to verify in fact that it was the correct day - and it took them a while to actually verify it.

 

[jabreal00]

Silly aside question, but for the, "stamp" we use when signing stuff, is it alright to use a promotable status? I know it looks douchey, but is it ok? I only ask because as a subspecialist, it helps me stand out a bit and lets pts and others know that I've been around and doing this for a little while.

No biggie, just curious.

I definitely wouldn't recommend putting that on a stamp. Trust me patients will not worry what rank you are if they are there for care and you are competent. I am an 04 subspecialist and I've had plenty of 06/07 rank patients (or their dependent spouses) whom have never made me to feel like I was wet behind the ears.

 

[HighPriest]

It doesn't make sense. I looked at the promotion list for NOV and per the sequence number it went up to, a bunch should have been promoted but weren't.

That happens.It happened back when I was checking promotion lists, waiting for O-4. They'll dance around a huge chunk of the sequence numbers, promote a few higher numbers and some lower ones. Then one day they'll promote a massive chunk of the list all at once. It's not worth worrying about. They're not going to forget about you, probably.

 

[deuist]

In the Air Force, promotion is still guaranteed all the way to the rank of lieutenant colonel. Promotion to major occurs six years to the date after graduating from medical school. Promotion to lieutenant colonel is automatic at the 12 year anniversary, although some people will be promoted below the zone if they complete Air Command and Staff College as well as perform some supervisory roles. Promotion to full colonel typically occurs at the 18 year anniversary, but is not automatic. It requires completing Air War College and a number of local and national administrative roles such as chief medical officer at a small hospital, consultant to the Surgeon General, flight commander, and so on. Becoming a general in the Air Force requires completing a flight surgery tour – and preferably residency in aerospace medicine. If you look at the bios for all of the medical corps generals in the Air Force, you'll notice that every single one of them has been a flight surgeon. The Air Force is the only branch that openly discriminates against other specialties and will not allow anyone else to become a flag officer.

 

[NavyFP]

I don't believe O6 is possible in the Navy any more without at least a year, maybe two, of nearly 100% non-clinical admin work, timed correctly.

Ohhhh please. It only required a 80-90% admin role. And a few deployments. And......selling my soul. (I wasn't using it anyway)

 

[DD214_DOC]

I looked, and O3 to O4 really isn't that much more money. Seeing what i could be making locally, though, makes me real sad...

 

[pgg]

Ohhhh please. It only required a 80-90% admin role. And a few deployments. And......selling my soul. (I wasn't using it anyway)

Congratulations, anyway. 🙂

 

[Vandalia]

In the Air Force, promotion is still guaranteed all the way to the rank of lieutenant colonel. Promotion to major occurs six years to the date after graduating from medical school. Promotion to lieutenant colonel is automatic at the 12 year anniversary, although some people will be promoted below the zone if they complete Air Command and Staff College as well as perform some supervisory roles. Promotion to full colonel typically occurs at the 18 year anniversary, but is not automatic. It requires completing Air War College and a number of local and national administrative roles such as chief medical officer at a small hospital, consultant to the Surgeon General, flight commander, and so on. Becoming a general in the Air Force requires completing a flight surgery tour – and preferably residency in aerospace medicine. If you look at the bios for all of the medical corps generals in the Air Force, you'll notice that every single one of them has been a flight surgeon. The Air Force is the only branch that openly discriminates against other specialties and will not allow anyone else to become a flag officer.

Now granted, things might have changed, but every Air Force physician has the opportunity to be a flight surgeon. Past Surgeons General have been dermatologists, OB/Gyn physicians, etc., etc. I have known radiologists, pathologists, allergists, who have their flight surgeon wings. Even in the Army/Navy, I have never heard of a physician making general/flag who had absolutely NO operational experience.