Medical Retina at Duke

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

drophtho

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Can anyone tell me what they know about the medical retina fellowship at Duke? How does it compare to other medical retina fellowships? Do people have good job prospects coming out of there? Are they generally happy with their training experience?

Thanks in advance!

Members don't see this ad.
 
I know a few attendings who've trained there recently. Some of them did go on to do surgical retina after but were very happy with their medical retina fellowship training. It's very busy and is supposed to be one of the top 2 or 3 medical retina fellowships in the country.
 
I know a few attendings who've trained there recently. Some of them did go on to do surgical retina after but were very happy with their medical retina fellowship training. It's very busy and is supposed to be one of the top 2 or 3 medical retina fellowships in the country.

Agree with this.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Thank you for your responses! Do you think the reason people then went on to do surgical retina was because they needed to do that to be more competitive in the job market? What I mean is, is it difficult to get jobs in the place you want with a medical retina fellowship only, and employers are looking for someone who can do medical and surgical retina for them?

Just wondering, maybe there is a totally different reason these people went on to do surgical retina?
 
Thank you for your responses! Do you think the reason people then went on to do surgical retina was because they needed to do that to be more competitive in the job market? What I mean is, is it difficult to get jobs in the place you want with a medical retina fellowship only, and employers are looking for someone who can do medical and surgical retina for them?

Just wondering, maybe there is a totally different reason these people went on to do surgical retina?

Fact is that most people who want to do retina want to do surgical (even though upwards of 90% of modern retina is medical). For many, medical retina is not the primary goal. They either apply to medical as a backup or scramble into it after not matching to surgical. Very few seek out medical as an end-point. Probably has to do with the fact that ophthalmology is a surgical subspecialty. Most who go into it want to do some sort of eye surgery. Medical retina is lasers and injections, but no OR time. I find it extremely satisfying, but that's me. The revenue potential is at least equivalent (and possibly better) than surgical, as the reimbursement as a function of time is currently better for clinic-based procedures. Many surgical retina docs, once established, look for excuses to stay out of the OR for that reason. Wait until microplasmin is released. Most private practice retina surgery is ERM/VMT/macular hole. Microplasmin has the potential to put a significant dent in that.
 
Agree with all the above about medical retina and Duke. I think the job market is more limited for med retina though is the only thing

About microplasmin, I don't know if I agree that it will put a huge dent in ERM\macular hole surgery. Yeah for VMT the data looks good but I dont' remember the data looking that great for ERMs and holes. Maybe there is new stuff out I need to look into.
 
MR1 is correct. The market for someone looking to perform 100% medical retina is very limited. Retina practices do not hire medical retina specialist since they are unable to help with call.

Most medical retina fellows either attend a surgical retina fellowship or join a general practice where they will perform a mix of general ophthalmology with medical retina. Due to volumes, there are very very few situations where someone can perform 100% medical retina.
 
Agree with all the above about medical retina and Duke. I think the job market is more limited for med retina though is the only thing

About microplasmin, I don't know if I agree that it will put a huge dent in ERM\macular hole surgery. Yeah for VMT the data looks good but I dont' remember the data looking that great for ERMs and holes. Maybe there is new stuff out I need to look into.

Just to clarify, I said significant, not huge. I understand it will not eliminate vits for those pathologies. The data I've seen suggest a fair hole closure rate, as well. The studies to date involve single treatments. Those in the know feel that repeated treatments may actually improve efficacy. We'll see.
 
MR1 is correct. The market for someone looking to perform 100% medical retina is very limited. Retina practices do not hire medical retina specialist since they are unable to help with call.

Most medical retina fellows either attend a surgical retina fellowship or join a general practice where they will perform a mix of general ophthalmology with medical retina. Due to volumes, there are very very few situations where someone can perform 100% medical retina.

I'd agree with this, in general. I'm about 80% medical retina and 20% general, though the latter is dropping each year as my retina practice builds (finishing year 3). A lot depends on the situation. You definitely have to be more aggressive to find a good med ret job. I had to approach a comprehensive practice and pitch my services, but the revenue benefit was fairly obvious to them.
 
Visionary, what do you think about the practicality of the very academic approaches to medical retina that are taught at these top fellowships? At large ophthalmology institutions they have access to ICG, autofluorescence, PDT, great technicians and they'll use these tools often in their treatment algorithms and to differentiate themselves from the run-of-the-mill-retina-specialist down the street. But out in the real world (in a comprehensive practice) it seems like the overhead for these tools must be high and you'd be lucky if you get access to an FA, an HD-OCT and a technician who knows how to use them.

Is the added stuff you learned during your medical retina fellowship useful and practical in private practice, over the basic medical retina knowledge that you learned from residency and on your own?


Also, when you were looking for a comprehensive practice to pitch your services too, what were you looking for in order to know that you'd be successful there with a medical retina practice? Was it basically a group you got along with and a lot of doctors who could refer you patients internally? Was there anything else?
 
Last edited:
So if I am okay with doing a mix of comprehensive and medical retina, does it help my job prospects with a comprehensive group practice to do a medical retina fellowship? I am wondering if it's worth the one year investment ( and associated costs of being a fellow, such as a big paycut, and potentially moving to another city for a year, tougher hours, etc) to do this in the hopes that it would give you an edge in the job market. I love retina so I am very interested in specializing in the field anyways, but want to take everything into account. If most people who are looking for a retina specialist want someone who can do surgical retina too then I am guessing it's not very helpful to do a medical retina fellowship.

Also when people refer to medical retina specialists doing a mix of comprehensive with medical retina are you talking about clinic only or also surgery such as cataracts and other anterior segment surgery?
 
To do medical retina, whether or not you did a medical retina fellowship, you have to have access to FA and HD-OCT at a minimum. ICG is borderline. AF and ERG are less required.

I think doing med retina out of residency w\o fellowship probably only works in smaller rural settings, I don't think you'd be successful in a big market. Having done 8 months of surg retina, I thought I knew medical retina from residency, I am amazed at what I didn't know. Does that matter if you are injecting AMD in your comprehensive practive in small town America. Probably not much but it is something to think about.
 
Visionary, what do you think about the practicality of the very academic approaches to medical retina that are taught at these top fellowships? At large ophthalmology institutions they have access to ICG, autofluorescence, PDT, great technicians and they'll use these tools often in their treatment algorithms and to differentiate themselves from the run-of-the-mill-retina-specialist down the street. But out in the real world (in a comprehensive practice) it seems like the overhead for these tools must be high and you'd be lucky if you get access to an FA, an HD-OCT and a technician who knows how to use them.

Disclaimer: I'm a paid speaker for QLT, the makers of Visudyne.

I could easily sit down and have an hour-long conversation with you about this, but I'll give you the Readers' Digest version. Not only do I think it's practical, I think it's essential, but that's my bias. For me, fellowship was incredibly enlightening. I thought I knew a lot about retina, as that had been my primary interest throughout residency (and before). It didn't take me long to realize that I actually knew very little. When you're doing retina day in and day out and following individual patients for long periods, you begin to understand more about the different pathologies, their time courses, and their responses to treatment.

I would never manage AMD without access to advanced imaging, and frankly, I would never recommend that someone who was not fellowship-trained do more than screen for retinal disease. Most comprehensive docs just don't know what they're looking at. It's not about competence, it's about experience. You simply don't get enough experience in residency rotations to appropriately understand and manage retinal disease. I know there are some who will argue with me, but that's my opinion.

Imaging technologies like SD-OCT and ICG angiography really opened my eyes to the complexity of wet AMD, in particular. I've picked up pathology missed by TD-OCT with SD-OCT. Likewise, I've identified sources of resistance in wet AMD with ICG. Now, probably only about 10% of retina docs use ICG, but I feel it's invaluable. Not every patient will respond to injections--no one would argue that fact. So, what do you do? Keep injecting? Give up?

I turn to combination therapy, usually with anti-VEGF, PDT, and dexamethasone. I target mature neovascular complexes, as identified by ICG, with the PDT. I'd say my success rate in those cases is ~70%, so it doesn't work for everyone. Sometimes, you just lose, no matter what you try. Do I get ICG on everyone? No. The majority of patients will still respond to injections. If they aren't having a significant response after 3 injections, however, I get an ICG. What I usually find is a mature complex, but sometimes it's something like polypoidal. Injections against those pathologies is pissing in the wind.

I have a 6-mode Heidelberg Spectralis, which runs about $150,000. It does everything I need (IR, autofluorescence, SD-OCT, red-free, FA, ICGA). Of course, as a function of my annual revenue, it's really not that expensive. It was paid off in my first year of practice (granted, that was before OCT reimbursement was cut).

My main photographer is a COT who has a particular interest in (and apparent talent for) photography. It took her a while to get the hang of it, but she does well. When she's out, I can tell a difference in quality, particularly with angiography. So, I would say having a good photographer is important, but not that difficult to find.

Is the added stuff you learned during your medical retina fellowship useful and practical in private practice, over the basic medical retina knowledge that you learned from residency and on your own?

See above.

Also, when you were looking for a comprehensive practice to pitch your services too, what were you looking for in order to know that you'd be successful there with a medical retina practice? Was it basically a group you got along with and a lot of doctors who could refer you patients internally? Was there anything else?

If you are going into a comprehensive practice as a specialist, you need to understand that most other comprehensive ophthalmologists will never refer to you. They're afraid of losing business to your colleagues, simply out of patient convenience. Thus, you must have a group that provides a large enough referral base for you to be successful. My group is 8 docs, including me. The others are comprehensive, though one has plastics training. There are also 2 cornea docs in my building, who send me patients. That has given me a good base, but my practice would have built more quickly with more. I'm happy with it, though.

Another option is a multispecialty group without comprehensive. That gives you a broader potential referral base. As has been stated before, joining a retina-only group is less of a possibility, as most such groups want the newer docs to take surgical call. It does happen, though.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Also when people refer to medical retina specialists doing a mix of comprehensive with medical retina are you talking about clinic only or also surgery such as cataracts and other anterior segment surgery?

That's very uncommon. Honestly, if you take an additional year to do fellowship training in retina, don't you want to focus on retina? The per patient revenue potential is about twice that of comprehensive. Think about it.
 
I think doing med retina out of residency w\o fellowship probably only works in smaller rural settings, I don't think you'd be successful in a big market. Having done 8 months of surg retina, I thought I knew medical retina from residency, I am amazed at what I didn't know. Does that matter if you are injecting AMD in your comprehensive practive in small town America. Probably not much but it is something to think about.

Completely agree. The only docs I know that do a significant amount of medical retina in a comprehensive practice are in rural areas. In metro, the retina goes to the retina docs.
 
That's very uncommon. Honestly, if you take an additional year to do fellowship training in retina, don't you want to focus on retina? The per patient revenue potential is about twice that of comprehensive. Think about it.

I was responding to peoples comments on this thread that most medical retina fellows end up doing a mix of comprehensive and medical retina. From what I have heard so far on this forum and from others it is unlikely you will be able to do only medical retina. So yes I probably would like to just focus on medical retina but I am trying to be realistic. So my question was does that mix include anterior segment surgery as well or just clinic.
 
Sorry, if I came off as smug. I'll say I haven't heard of anyone who has done a medical retina fellowship and does cataracts, refractive, etc. If you're going to the boonies to do true comprehensive, you probably don't need to bother with a fellowship. If you're in any decent sized city, you need a referral base to focus on retina. Most comprehensive docs won't refer to you, if you do cataracts. Most optometrists will have arrangements with high volume cataract surgeons. You can't be that and a retina doc. So, where will you get referrals? See my point?

Sent from my HTC Incredible using SDN Mobile
 
That was incredibly informative and on point. Thank you!
 
Sorry, if I came off as smug. I'll say I haven't heard of anyone who has done a medical retina fellowship and does cataracts, refractive, etc. If you're going to the boonies to do true comprehensive, you probably don't need to bother with a fellowship. If you're in any decent sized city, you need a referral base to focus on retina. Most comprehensive docs won't refer to you, if you do cataracts. Most optometrists will have arrangements with high volume cataract surgeons. You can't be that and a retina doc. So, where will you get referrals? See my point?

Sent from my HTC Incredible using SDN Mobile

Thanks for your reply. Your posts as well as everyone else's have been very helpful. I'm just trying to get a better idea of how good the demand is for medical retina. I do understand your comment about the referral issue and that is definitely a good point you make. I am okay with letting go of cataract surgery to do medical retina only, but i don't want to spend a year doing it if there are not a lot of people looking for this, that's all. It sounds like you are doing very well, which gives me encouragement. But I wonder how common that is? If most people who are looking for a retina specialist want someone who can also do the surgical aspect then I would still not have much competitive advantage over them. And on the other hand, if there are other comprehensives out there who feel comfortable doing retina lasers and intravitreal injections and are selling themselves to practices with this, then there isn't much competitive advantage over them either (at least not in the eyes of many private practices, although I personally think a retina specialist is better trained to manage these patients). Maybe the opportunities are there but as you mentioned before, you have to really pitch your services and sell yourself over the other candidates. What about academic centers? Would most of them be willing to consider a medical retina over a med and surg retina? Or is it only the big name places with more funding for research, etc that would do this.
 
Thanks for your reply. Your posts as well as everyone else's have been very helpful. I'm just trying to get a better idea of how good the demand is for medical retina. I do understand your comment about the referral issue and that is definitely a good point you make. I am okay with letting go of cataract surgery to do medical retina only, but i don't want to spend a year doing it if there are not a lot of people looking for this, that's all. It sounds like you are doing very well, which gives me encouragement. But I wonder how common that is? If most people who are looking for a retina specialist want someone who can also do the surgical aspect then I would still not have much competitive advantage over them. And on the other hand, if there are other comprehensives out there who feel comfortable doing retina lasers and intravitreal injections and are selling themselves to practices with this, then there isn't much competitive advantage over them either (at least not in the eyes of many private practices, although I personally think a retina specialist is better trained to manage these patients). Maybe the opportunities are there but as you mentioned before, you have to really pitch your services and sell yourself over the other candidates. What about academic centers? Would most of them be willing to consider a medical retina over a med and surg retina? Or is it only the big name places with more funding for research, etc that would do this.


I know someone who did a medical retina fellowship recently and he told me that the job market is similar to that for general ophthalmology. As others in this forum have mentioned, most practices looking to hire want someone who can handle the surgical cases and share retina call with. Additionally I don't think it's very common to find medical retina specialists who also perform cataract surgery, unless they are practicing in a very rural location. If you are also doing cataracts, why would comprehensive docs refer to you instead of the surgical retina folks? It seems that doing a medical retina fellowship will provide you with a new skill set but unfortunately that skill set may not make you that much more marketable for jobs.
 
I know someone who did a medical retina fellowship recently and he told me that the job market is similar to that for general ophthalmology. As others in this forum have mentioned, most practices looking to hire want someone who can handle the surgical cases and share retina call with. Additionally I don't think it's very common to find medical retina specialists who also perform cataract surgery, unless they are practicing in a very rural location. If you are also doing cataracts, why would comprehensive docs refer to you instead of the surgical retina folks? It seems that doing a medical retina fellowship will provide you with a new skill set but unfortunately that skill set may not make you that much more marketable for jobs.

As a follow-up, my friend and one of his medical retina co-fellows ended up in surgical retina fellowships the following year.
 
I know someone who did a medical retina fellowship recently and he told me that the job market is similar to that for general ophthalmology. As others in this forum have mentioned, most practices looking to hire want someone who can handle the surgical cases and share retina call with. Additionally I don't think it's very common to find medical retina specialists who also perform cataract surgery, unless they are practicing in a very rural location. If you are also doing cataracts, why would comprehensive docs refer to you instead of the surgical retina folks? It seems that doing a medical retina fellowship will provide you with a new skill set but unfortunately that skill set may not make you that much more marketable for jobs.

Thanks for your reply. Yes this is the sense I'm getting. It would be great to get more focused training in retina but I have to really think about the career aspects afterwards as well. If I could more easily find an academic position after this fellowship that would definitely be a plus for me.
 
Since most medical retina specialists don't operate they lose an important source of revenue. Right now they more than make up for this because retina patients on average, pay more than general ophthalmology patients. But if there are continued cuts in reimbursement for imaging tests and intravitreal injections, for example, they would disproportionately affect medical retina specialists because they are not able to make up for this loss through operating room procedures. There are definitely pluses (higher rvu's/patient encounter, no surgical emergencies to worry about) and minuses (less marketablility for jobs than surgical retina, less flexibility to make up for lost revenue) to consider.
 
Here's the deal, folks. There are only about 10 medical retina fellowship positions per year. Most of those are used as springboards to surgical fellowships. So, say it's 50%. That means there are only 5 medical retina fellows graduating per year. You think they have a hard time finding jobs? How many surgical fellows graduate per year? Over 100.

If you are going to take a year to do medical retina without plans to continue on to a surgical fellowship, you need to use that. That means you should plan to focus largely on retina. You are unlikely to find a job advertised for medical retina. You will need to seek out opportunities on your own. Believe me, though, you will have no problem finding practices that would like to keep medical retina in house. While there have been cuts in imaging and injection fees, you'll still average about twice what your comprehensive colleagues collect per patient. It's doubtful that there will be additional cuts anytime soon.

Revenue potential for medical and surgical is essentially equivalent. Keep in mind that about 90% of what surgical retina docs do is medical. Ask any surgical doc, and they'll tell you they lose money when they go to the OR. That's a fact that's been spoken about at national meetings for the last several years. Of the medical retina fellows I know that did not want to pursue another fellowship, all have jobs. That's not a problem. What you need to ask yourself is are you going to be happy dropping surgery and focusing on in-office procedures. If the answer is no, medical retina is probably not for you.
 
Well said Visionary. To add to your point...don't look at what you will be doing 5 years from now. If you choose to give up cataract surgery now, it will be extremely difficult to start performing cataract surgery in the future.

We witnessed it with the explosion of the refractive market. Many good surgeons gave up cataracts to become a "refractive surgeon". When the monies and market dried up, they were left out in the cold. Many become medical ophthalmologist out of necessity.
 
Well said Visionary. To add to your point...don't look at what you will be doing 5 years from now. If you choose to give up cataract surgery now, it will be extremely difficult to start performing cataract surgery in the future.

We witnessed it with the explosion of the refractive market. Many good surgeons gave up cataracts to become a "refractive surgeon". When the monies and market dried up, they were left out in the cold. Many become medical ophthalmologist out of necessity.

Not to diverge, but this statement is interesting in regards to the history of refractive surgery. Is there still a market for high volume PRK and LASEK and are most refractive surgeons fellowship trained in cornea or comprehensive? My understanding is the refractive market is a cutthroat industry. A brief history on this would be interesting.
 
Not to diverge, but this statement is interesting in regards to the history of refractive surgery. Is there still a market for high volume PRK and LASEK and are most refractive surgeons fellowship trained in cornea or comprehensive? My understanding is the refractive market is a cutthroat industry. A brief history on this would be interesting.

There are 100% refractive opportunities out there....but just a few. LVI is one place around the country that hires full-time refractive surgeons, although typically they are staffed now by part-time physicians. Those who come in one or two days a month just to do surgery.

Now days, most practices have at least one person (cornea trained usually), who are the refractive surgeon on staff. At the time, no everyone was refractive trained....now it seems abnormal if you have not at least had some exposure.

It is the law of supply and demand.....same reason why so many folks are having difficulty finding positions in Southern California or NYC....there are too many already there!
 
There are 100% refractive opportunities out there....but just a few. LVI is one place around the country that hires full-time refractive surgeons, although typically they are staffed now by part-time physicians. Those who come in one or two days a month just to do surgery.

Now days, most practices have at least one person (cornea trained usually), who are the refractive surgeon on staff. At the time, no everyone was refractive trained....now it seems abnormal if you have not at least had some exposure.

It is the law of supply and demand.....same reason why so many folks are having difficulty finding positions in Southern California or NYC....there are too many already there!

Yeah, when refractive surgery first came out, only cornea docs were doing it. Then, comprehensive docs realized how relatively straight-forward it was and added it. That drove prices down dramatically. Most of the docs in my group do refractive, though no one is a FT refractive surgeon.
 
Top