Medical School Admissions: How can I improve my chances?

[Doodledog]

This is for all the July MCATers... If we submit AMCAS in June and are verified in July, we should get (most) of our secondaries. Assuming that we can get them and LORs in by the day the MCAT scores come out (Aug 15) is that late enough to be hurtful to our applications?

Of course, we'd still be late at schools that screen, because they would send us secondaries in early Sept. Should we cross off schools that screen, or are they still worth a shot?

I just know I can get an extra point or two in another month, but if it just ends up hurting me time-wise then I'll take it Jun 15.

Oh pretty please tell me before the deadline to change test dates Jun 8

Thanks!

Only you can balance the benefit of an early application vs the possibility of a higher score by virtue of more study time. Sorry, there is no general answer to this question and it would be misleading to attempt to give one.

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[Doodledog]

Is there any good, scientific approach to the issue of building a short list of where to apply? I understand that the conventional wisdom is to apply to 15+ schools and go to anyone that will take you, but I'm looking to apply only to those that seem a reasonable fit, and I'd like to visit every school I'm considering before I apply.
No point in applying to schools that have hard gpa or mcat cutoff's above where I am. No point in applying to schools where the environment or geography is a stark mismatch.
As an older non-trad, I also have some constraints.
The books don't really tell you much.
What's the best approach?

I'm sorry, I don't know of any scientific approach to deciding where to apply and one needs to know everything about an application to evaluate it, not just the numbers. If some schools use absolute cut-offs, they are generally not made public. When I am asked by individuals this question, I meet with them in person and spend about half an hour reviewing all aspects of their application and help them choose schools. Even then, the decisions are largely theirs. Good luck - I recommend you try to find some trusted pre-med counselors to do this for you.

 

[Doodledog]

Hi,

I'm not sure if my question is appropriate here but it does relate to the medical school application process. I'm currently doing an internship at the Massachusetts Breast Cancer Coalition. I have been working very hard at the tasks and jobs I need to handle--I deal with media communications. Although I've gained good communication skills, I still feel as if it's not the right internship for me.

However, I have the opportunity to continue the internship for 2-3 more years. But, my heart (corny I know) would rather me doing an internship at Biogen Idec Inc. or Genzyme Inc.

Would it be better if I had various internships in different organizations (Mass. Breast Cancer Coalition, Biogen Idec, etc.) as opposed to 3-4 years of being an Intern with the Mass. Breast Cancer Coalition?

Also, how are internships looked at alongside volunteering at a hospital, Jumpstart, Red Cross, and Free Health Clinic? I love working at all these places, but some of my friends have told me it will seem as if I'm "showing off."

I want to thank you for your time for reading through this lengthy post and I also want to thank you tremendously for each mentor for reading all the posts and replying. I know I am truly appreciative of everything you do!

Never spend multiple years at an internship you do not wish to be at. It will become obvious when you are interviewed that it wasn't a meaningful experience and you won't derive much benefit from it. A diverse set of experiences is best as long as you've come to understand the workings of any you participate in and can discuss, hopefully with enthusiasm, the ones that are most important to you. I don't concur that working for places like the Red Cross is showing off.

 

[Doodledog]

Hello! Sorry if a similar post by me ends up showing up a few times. I've tried posting this message twice before and it hasn't shown up. I haven't posted before so I don't know if I'm doing it right. I could really use some advice on how medicals schools view MCAT scores. I have a 3.82cum and 3.74 science but a 33R MCAT (9 ps, 12 bs, 12 vr). I was really upset with my score, especially because I was getting 35-37 on practices with 11s in ps and 14s in bs. I haven't been able to forgive myself for it. I'm agonizing over whether or not to retake because I don't know whether the 9 will automatically exclude me from being considered at top 15 medical schools. How bad does a 9 look or will my 12s and gpa offset it? Most of the schools I was looking at have an 11 or 12 avg physical science and usually the lower subset score for schools is verbal reasoning. Any advice on what I should do? Should I just apply and hope for the best or retake? Could I take it this summer without indicating in the AMCAS that I'm retaking and if I do better, send it to med schools later??? HELP!

Only you can decide this. A 9 will not automatically exclude you from being considered at my medical school. I am fairly doubtful that there are any medical schools in which no students got a 9 in at least one science section, but such data are not available publicly. My advice is to apply only to schools you are willing to go to.

 

[Doodledog]

Thank in advance.

I'm a two career student.

1st try: Floundered around for 3 years at 2 different schools and got a 2.5 with no science work.

2nd try: 8 years later, pure success. 3.97 gpa almost all science with some additional courses. My cummulative is around a 3.33, sci gpa is a 3.9. I've got loads of patient care hours as an ED tech with good support from physicians in seeking this career. No research--I work full time--they don't pay the inexperienced and I can't afford to give my time to someone who isn't paying me right now.

My issue is one of strategy. I'm 33 and trying to figure out if another year of classes is worth the investment to get my gpa to a 3.4+. I am very against attending an SMP because I feel they are just way too expensive and I want to limit my investment to a medical career at around $250,000 instead of sums approaching 1/2 a million dollars especially considering my career interests in sub-specialty internal medicine put me at almost mid 40's before beginning repayment.

What would my MCAT have to be for you guys to interview me as is? Any other suggestions are much appreciated.

I can only answer for my institution. There is no MCAT number that would be the one to get you an interview. Someone, possibly me, would spend a considerable amount of time reading your essays and considering the path you'd taken to apply at this time in your life. Then, when considering all aspects of the application, including the letters of recommendations, we would decide whether you ranked high enough in our applicant pool to interview. My suggestion is that you take the essay very seriously and make sure you have folks who understand you and your path to medicine well write your letters.

 

[Doodledog]

I'm applying this year but am concerned about lack of clinical and research experience. I have about a 3.88 AO/3.83 BCPM GPA. MCAT score due next week but going by practice scores should be about 32-35 with a solid 11 or 12 on VR. I'm a non-trad with 7 years of work experience total in health education and in medical practice management. The latter is my own business. In addition I'm a professional dancer and instructor part-time. My clinical exposure has been very little shadowing (1 day plus viewing patient procedures/ shadowing during rounds a dozen times), and I'm starting this month to volunteer in the ED, which I'll continue throughout this year. However I feel that running the medical office is ... maybe semi-clinical exposure? My research experience is basically social science research I did one quarter in undergrad, related to motivations of underpriviledged teenage science-fair students. Also the job with health education was on a health research project.

My question is: I feel that my experiences have given me a good idea of what it takes to be a doctor. I could put off the application for a year and do more volunteering and work in a research lab or clinical trial. I'm interested in medical education eventually, and so would like to attend perhaps a larger name university (I understand this is advised?). I feel that more clinical/research exposure would make me a more "attractive" candidate. But, I am turning 30 this year and feel very much that time is running short...

What is your opinion on the wisdom of applying this year vs. next year? Thank you kindly for your time.

Your essays and letters of recommendation will help a committee understand you and your experiences. Nothing I've read above suggests you should not be able to frame this in a way so as to demonstrate your committment to medicine. Also, it is June, there is still plenty of time to do more shadowing before you interview.

It is not true that you need to go to a "larger name university" to do academic medicine.

 

[oxeye]

Dear Adcoms,

I am going to be applying in the upcoming cycle. I am confused about Biochemistry lab. I have already taken one quarter of biochemistry (one quarter, 4.0 units), but have not taken the separate lab (one quarter, 4.0 units). Is the lab required? Highly recommended? Will it even make a difference? I do not need the class to graduate, but have some time in the summer to take it if that will be looked upon very favorably.

I have done well in general chemistry and organic chemistry labs (A, B+ respectively) and also have a lot of research lab work experience as well.

I appreciate your advice.

Thank You!

Your post is really too school specific for this thread and you will get the best answer by asking the admissions staff at the schools you are interested in.

Best of luck.

 

[Doodledog]

Dear AdComs: This will be my second time applying to medical school. The first round is something I'd like to not talk about in terms of my MCAT (29Q with a breakdown of 7PS 11V 11BS), although I did receive a few interviews (EC's include a lot of volunteer and shadowing, along with working for the fire dept. for the past 2 years). Besides the obvious MCAT (which I've retaken), I heard through the grapevine about one of my interviews from a friend of the dean.

He said that my patient exposure wasn't centered enough on long-term care, and that it seemed like I was doing medicine for the excitement of it (which completely confused me, since it would seem I would remain as a firefighter if I wanted excitement). In any case, my shadowing has been with a cardiologist, an OBGYN, and in the near future, a geriatric doc, among others. These all seem to be long-term care docs, but perhaps I'm not expressing it in the correct way? How would an AdCom want that to be presented?

As a side note, I really enjoyed the cardiologist, and made that known both in my app as well as in my interview.

Any advice would be most appreciated.

The specific feeback you got is hard to understand, as there's nothing wrong with being excited about medicine. However, the important thing is that you received specific feedback that you might not have expressed yourself well during the interview. You should take this feedback seriously and spend some time practicing answers to key questions about your past and future with several people. They don't have to be adcoms or even doctors, but should be people with experience interviewing others. They can look for your non-verbal behaviors as well as listen to what you say and how you express it.

Please take this part seriously. Many outstanding candidates spend huge amounts of time and effort preparing their med school application but spend virtually no time practicing the interview. This may not describe you, but you should ask others to give you a critical assessment of your interviewing skills.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

hello and thank you for answering my question.
well im a first year colleg studen and i have a couple questions.

A: does anyone have any info on some good programs that i could travel with over the summer? such as missions or just studying abroad?

B: is it true that medical schools dislike accepting students that have anything to do with buisness majors or minors? my current major is biology and i cant decide between psychology,theatre,or buisness for my minor.


thanks again for taking time to answer my questions.

I am NOT medical admission advisor but I can help you. First check with your school about program abroads. Also, medical and dental schools have missionary trips that you may be able to join as a volunteer. Doing such trips look very good on your resume since it shows that you are concerned about helping under-derserved people. As fas as I know about medical/dental schools, it does not matter what field you have your BS in. I would pick a field that gives you the best chance of getting a solid GPA and prepare you for a good MCAT score. I anyday would rather have a BS in "palm reading" with a 3.9 GPA rather than biochemistry major with a 3.2. Ofcourse you must have decent MCAT score too on what ever field you choose. My BS was in aerospace engineering. DP

 

[Professor Plum]

Hello everyone,

I am about halfway finished with my M.D./Ph.D. I will be helping answer questions from a student's perspective. Please note that I am NOT on an adcomm, and I will have to defer such questions to those who are.

Regards,
PP

 

[Professor Plum]

Hi everyone,

I am new to SDN. I am a graduating senior, with my heart set on medical school…however, I am embarrassed to say that my UCLA science / bcpm GPA is horrible (~2.9). I took all my pre-requisite courses early in college during my first two years, and did not do well because I was involved in too many things at once and worked all the time… Though I know that is no excuse, it is not a reflection of my study habits or ability to do well. Since then, I have steadily been raising my gpa for the last two years… and have kept it above a 3.8 for several quarters now. However, many of these are from my major in Biopsychology and may not count as science courses because they are listed under the psych department. Anyways, I have raised my overall to about a 3.4, but my science gpa still stands. In terms of other experiences, I have extensive volunteering experience in several departments, publications, conferences, several medical missions trips (central America, Africa), and a successful internship in the biotech industry. I have yet to take the MCAT this summer. I would appreciate any information about what else I could do to improve my chances... would you recommend a postbac? Masters? D.O. School? I am ready to give up medicine, because I know my chances are slim. Thanks for your help.

What I don't understand is why you aren't taking more upper level science coursework to raise your science GPA. It sounds like you haven't taken many science classes and you could raise your science GPA to a reasonable level fairly quickly. You can do a formal postbacc if you want, or just take classes on your own. Do you have a premed advisor at your school? You should probably also make an appointment to see them.

 

[Professor Plum]

I am going into my 3rd year at a California state school. I have decided that I would like to pursue a career in Medicine and my major is now Biological Sciences. My GPA is currently a cumulative 3.356 and I am working every semester to improve it.

I am very interested in becoming a doctor someday, but I don't even know where to get started.

My boyfriend has often tried to convince me to change my major because he does not think that I will go anywhere with Biological Sciences. A friend of mine has repeatedly told me that because he goes to a University of California and I go to a California State school that I will not be admitted to any Medical Schools based on that factor alone. All of this, as well as reading through this thread, has made me become very discouraged. I am hardworking and motivated though.

How can I get started, what can I begin doing now to help me reach my goal?

Please help!!

Thank you.

You do not have to major in any specific subject to go to medical school as long as you complete all of the prerequisites. If you want to be a biological sciences major, there is no reason why you shouldn't be one. This is your education, and you don't need to pick your major to please anyone else. It is also not true that attending a state school means that you cannot get into medical school. Your ability to get into medical school depends on your accomplishments, not the name on your diploma. I apologize if I sound judgmental, but I also think you should discuss your medical school plans with friends who are more supportive of you than these two are.

 

[Professor Plum]

OK, I'm looking to shadow a physician to know more about medicine..etc but I personally don't know any physician and my school isn't affiliated with any hospital. Are there any specific opportunities out there to shadow physicians?

Thanks for your help in advance!

You will need to have some initiative here and start contacting people. Be persistent and don't give up if the first few people you ask turn you down. One good place to start might be with your family physician. You could also try asking some of the older students at your school. If you are a member of a premedical club, the club may have shadowing programs also.

 

[Miss Scarlett]

Hi - I am a medical student from a non-traditional background. I am willing to answer some of the more basic questions about applying to medical school.

 

[Professor Plum]

Thank you Professor Plum for your response!

Now where do I go from here?

I know nothing about the process that goes into preparing myself for Medical School. I am completely lost.

I know I want to go to Medical School, so now what?

Have you met with your premedical advisor? You should meet with the premedical advisor at your school to make a specific plan to follow. I can tell you what you need to do in general, but you should have your advisor help you plan how to get there.

In general, you will need to take all four of the pre-requisite classes. These are a year each of general biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics, with the labs. Most people can finish these courses in two years. At that point, you will need to take the MCAT. You should take the MCAT ONLY after having completed all of the pre-reqs and ONLY after preparing for it thoroughly. Most people take 2-3 months to study for the MCAT. Throughout college, you should also participate in activities that show your motivation and understanding for a career in medicine. These can include such things as shadowing physicians, tutoring children or younger students, volunteering in a hospital, doing research, working as an EMT, etc. Note that this list is not exhaustive (there are many other possible things you can do), nor must you do every activity on this list. I believe that it is better to pick one or two activities that mean a lot to you rather than do two dozen different things superficially.

There is also an invaluable book that you can check out from your school library or borrow from an older friend called the MSAR. This book is put out by the AAMC each year. It lists all of the medical schools in the US and Canada, the courses they require, and information about the kinds of students they are looking for. Some medical schools require additional coursework like English, math, or biochemistry. If you plan to apply to any of these schools, you and your advisor should make sure that you will have time to complete all of these classes before you finish school.

 

[Professor Plum]

Hello everyone! I've had an interesting path to medicine and am wondering if there is anything more I can do to help my chances of admission? Specifically, is there anything I can do to explain my undergrad GPA?

I went to Purdue for my undergrad in electrical engineering. I had some ups and downs (failed 4 classes but took again with ok grades). Graduated with a 3.11. My last years GPA was a 3.6, so a considerable improvement.

Next, I got my MS in electical engineering from Purdue. Did a thesis with a conferenece paper. Graduated in a year with a 4.0.

I then returned to Maryland and took the rest of my premed requirements at UMBC (Orgo/Bio). Again, 4.0 in all my premed classes.

Now I am at Univ. of Michigan doing a MS in Biomedical Engineering. I have a 7.9/8.0 and am in a lab doing neural engineering research. I am also teaching physics for Princeton Review.

MCAT was a 36O (13P 10V 13B).

I will have a number of very good recommendations and have been involved with some experience volunteering in hospitals and other charity organizations. I have also been involved with Tau Beta Pi and other honor organizations as well.

I'm sure my undergrad grades will hurt me to some extent. However, I haven't gotten anything less than an A since 2004. I'm trying to find the best way to convey my slow rise to maturity. Thanks for reading and I appreciate any input.

My advice would be to focus on the turnaround you've done rather than trying to explain your past. You cannot go back and undo your old grades, but you can use your personal statement to emphasize how prepared you are for medical school today. Your accomplishments of the past few years are very impressive. I think if you apply broadly and highlight the person you've become, you will get looked at. Maybe Tildy or Madame could comment on this as well.

 

[Doodledog]

I assume that I should make SOME mention of the prior grades? I do not plan on using half the PS to dwell on the past, but I assume I should at least discuss it briefly.

Why? We'll see the grades and recognize the pattern of improvement and how you turned it around. If you feel a need to give a perfunctory "I was dumb/lazy/unmotivated/young etc but then got it together" do so. Truthfully, with all the things you've done, I wouldn't bother with any of that. Any adcom member reading your application will figure all of this out. Save it for the interview or for secondaries that ask this sort of "what have you done to improve yourself" type of question.

It is generally true that using your AMCAS essay to explain early academic failures isn't needed or all that helpful. An exception would be if you had a specific life event that you want to discuss in this regard (you were sick/assaulted, etc), but even then, it's best saved for the interview or secondary. If you do address your early college grades, do so briefly and only in the sense of "I started bad, I matured, I did better." Then tell us how and why you'll make a great doctor.

 

[Doodledog]

Im a ring junior looking to apply to medical school after I get my bachelors (Biology, havnt taken MCAT yet, 3.5 GPA, I plan on using most of my free time over my junior and senior years volunteering at a local hospital and at a soup kitchen, so this shouldnt be a problem.) and I am just wondering how medical schools view learning outside of a school environment. What I mean by this is: I have, in my free time, learned to read music, play guitar and piano, learned to read, write and speak german, learned a bit of latin, and learned C++ programming. I am just wondering if this would improve my application a great deal, or if schools wont bother with it since it was learned outside of a school environment.

Hard to say. This will be very individual and depends both on how you present your skills and how the reviewer of your application puts them together with the rest of you application. In general, lots of talents are good and it doesn't matter where you learned them. However, these days, many applicants have a wide range of talents so a long list like yours isn't uncommon. Do be careful about what you indicate you know. You might find that you are interviewed in German, or asked all about C++ programming. Be sure you're honest about what you can do in these fields and be prepared to be interviewed by an expert in them if by chance that happens.

 

[Professor Plum]

I am a soon to be BME graduate from a top-tier university, 37R (11V, 13B, 13P), 3.8 (also 3.8 science). I did research for about three years, and I'm really interested in academic medicine, but I fear that med schools will find my lack of clinical and volunteer experience unpalatable. I made the decision to be a doc after spending about 24 hours practicing EMT skills in the ER, and the closest thing I came to clinical after that was at a clinical psych lab treating drug addicts, which involved patient interaction.

I've started volunteering at the same ER this summer (up to graduation). How else may I improve my application? With these circumstances in mind, would I be better served applying next cycle with more clinical exposure? Thanks.

Are you applying M.D./Ph.D.? If so, then your research is the most important activity, and you already have great research experience and stats. Probably you should go ahead and apply. But if you're just applying for M.D. programs, then having good clinical exposure and volunteer experience matters a lot more. In that case it might make more sense to take a year off so that you have some time to get more exposure to medicine. I think you should meet with your premedical advisor to talk about your strength as an applicant. Oh, and whatever you do, don't tell people that you decided to become a doctor after spending 24 hours in the ER. I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but it comes across sounding kind of naive or like you didn't really think this decision through.

 

[Professor Plum]

Thank You!

What are the differences between M.D. and D.O.?

Also, how many years(I know it varies from individual) is Medical School-Internship & Residency, etc.?

I didn't apply D.O., so I really can't tell you too much about it. As far as I know, there isn't much difference. D.O.s can do all the same jobs that M.D.s do. If you haven't already, you should probably go to the pre-osteopathic forum and read about osteopathy there. There is also a D.O. mentor thread, so you might want to read through it.

Generally, medical school takes four years if you're just getting the D.O. or M.D. If you're doing an M.D./Ph.D., it takes around 7-8 years for most people. Residencies take from 3-5 years in most specialties. Some people do fellowships afterward to get extra training in subspecialties or research, which adds on another 1-2 years.

 

[Professor Plum]

Hi Tildy (or whoever else can help),

I am applying this upcoming cycle and would appreciate any advice on improving my chances for the "top tier" schools. I have a 3.8 (overall and BCMP) GPA from a top school, 35T mcat, and plenty of activities with good LORs. However, I only have minimal research experience and have focused the majority of my activities on public health issues and teaching/mentoring. While I do envision a possible career in academic medicine (researching health policy, public health initiatives, or being a clinical-educator), I fear that my lack of research experience may immediately disqualify me from some of the top schools, which tend to be heavily research oriented. Do I even stand a chance at getting into one of these institutions? Will my passions and experience in public health and healthcare make up for my minimal research?

Any type of guidance is welcome! Thanks so much for what you are doing..it really helps us premeds out

No one can answer this question. My advice is to avoid picking schools based on where they are on the U.S. News rankings. Get an MSAR and apply to several schools that you think you might like and see how things go. If you don't want to do research, you don't have to, assuming you're applying to regular M.D. programs.

 

[Doodledog]

I have been wondering for some time if I have a shot at even getting an interview based on my stats. I had a 3.8 science GPA as an undergrad and a 3.5 GPA as a grad student. I have research/volunteer experience and I am in numerous organizations both from undergrad and grad. I will be getting an MS in nutrition from Columbia University and an MPH afterwards from their school of Public Health. Does your graduate work really matter in the admissions process? Will it increase my chances of getting an interview if I had decent or good MCAT scores?

This is a reminder that questions of the form, implicit or explicit "What are my chances?" are not for this forum as they cannot be answered. Individual adcoms cannot assess your suitability for 125 medical schools. They should be asked in pre-allo in the appropriate thread.

Graduate work at the masters level will not generally have a major impact on your application in and of itself. It can be useful in that nutrition and public health are important areas and will allow you to discuss and explain your path to medicine and your medical career plans. The effects of special masters programs and the like should be addressed to those expert in these.

 

[Doodledog]

I'm an undergraduate student, finishing up my Bachelors degree and applying to medical school this fall. I have read a few threads regarding international volunteer projects... but I have a question which I believe hasn't been brought up before.

My personal statement and reasons for entering medicine have been highly influenced by a desire to improve healthcare systems in developing countries... but I'm wondering about how this will be perceived by AdComs. Is it possible to have too much focus on international healthcare?

I have heard generally positive feedback about my goals, but is it possible to be perceived negatively as having too much emphasis on healthcare outside the US...

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Much depends on exactly what your international experience was and how you plan to use the experience in the future. In broad generalities, if the experiences were relatively short 1-4 week type of things, it can be looked at as "overstating" to state that this is your future. Adcoms may wonder if you have a real understanding of what it's like to practice internationally as a career. If you have an MPH or have spent time with MSF or the Peace Corps, etc, then, indicating a career plan strongly related to international health will be appreciated better.

Your application should always be "true." That is, it should reflect the influences that were real in your life. It should not however come across as "pie in the sky." This can be difficult to balance.

It doesn't hurt to indicate interest in health care disparities in the US as well as international health. A few adcoms might wonder why you are going to med school in the US if your plan is entirely foreign service. But, again, if foreign service is your goal AND you have a background to indicate you know what you're getting into, then it's okay to focus on that.

 

[Professor Plum]

From what I've read in this forum, it appears that the advice is to retake any required class that you get a C or below in. I had one "C+" in Bio I, but I have been told not to retake the class since I've now taken so many more in depth Biology courses (and gotten A's) so it shows that I really did understand the material. What do you guys think? My other grades in the other prereqs are decent, and since AMCAS counts both grades (the "C" & probably an "A" if I retook) anyways so is there really a point?

Thanks!

Probably every school has a different policy that will depend on things like how good your later coursework and MCAT scores are, how old the C is, whether you can reasonably explain the anomaly of this one C, etc. You should talk to your premedical advisor and maybe call a few of the schools that you are going to apply to and ask what they recommend.

 

[Madame]

Just checking in to say "hi" and offer my help with AMCAS application questions, concerns about secondary applications, letters of recommendation, and interview situations.

 

[Professor Plum]

What is your opinion on submitting LOR's beyond the required amount? I'll have (what I'm positive is) a solid committee letter. This is the minimal amount required by the schools that I'll be applying to. I have others (my academic advisor/prof, volunteer coordinator, etc) in mind from whom I could get good LOR's. Would this be worth it or would that just add extra "baggage" for adcoms to wade through?

Thanks very much. I appreciate all the time that you mentors volunteer for us

I think most if not all schools will allow you to submit up to three extra letters; that's what my school does, anyway. If you can get extra letters that attest to your fitness to go to medical school and be a physician, why not? I think it's especially helpful to have extra letters if you're an older student who has been out of school for a while (ex. get a letter from your employer) or if you can get letters from people who know you really well and can give an additional perspective about you to the adcomm beyond what your committee letter will say. Just make sure to double-check each school's policy before you submit the extra letters, but I would be very surprised if any schools won't let you send an extra two or three letters.

 

[Professor Plum]

I have some time before applying to medical school (plan to apply June 2008) and would like to take an additional upper level biology course while I prepare for the MCAT and finish my lab courses. I am already planning to take biochemistry and am wondering which of the following would be most helpful in preparing for medical school/most helpful in my application:

Cell Biology
Molecular Biology
Homeostasis: The Physiology of Plants and Animals
Comparative Vertebrate Anatomy
Developmental Biology

I appreciate any advice you may have regarding this coursework. Thanks!

Have you taken genetics? That would probably be the most helpful class for the MCAT of upper level biology classes. Of the ones you've listed, any would be helpful for medical school, but probably molecular biology or physiology would be most applicable to the MCAT. Don't worry too much at this point about trying to get ahead in biology though. Your medical school classes will be so much more in depth than any class you take as an undergraduate that any advantage you get will be minimal anyway. Just take whatever interests you, even if it's not biology at all. Once you get to medical school, you'll be doing all biology all the time, and you might regret not taking the opportunity now to study other subjects just for fun.

 

[Doodledog]

I know everyone whose been on a team of some sort puts on their apps, even if its intermural, but what about individual sports?

I powerlift, starting up some BJJ/Muay Thai, but none are at a competitive level (no, I can't pull 600lb off the floor ), yet neither are most intermural sports by comparison. Should I put any of these things on my app if I have a real passion (and time spent) for them, but they don't show I can communicate or work with others nor do I have a USPL/UFC championship?

Can't hurt. I don't think anyone would consider individual sports not worth mentioning. You might get interviewed by a lifter who would love to talk about it.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

First of all, thanks to all the adcom people for looking at this! I just recieved my MCAT score, and I was less than thrilled with my 28M. I am wondering if I should retake it; will it improve my chances by that much? I peaked at a 32 in practice tests so I guess that would be the highest that I would potentially get. Any advice would be great!

This would be a good place to ask this question: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=412739

 

[Doodledog]

Thanks for all the valuable information. I was hoping you might give me some advice. Here's my story, I'm sure you've heard it before:

I went into college bent on being an engineer. I attended a prestigious technical university, became severly depressed, and transferred back to my hometown university (w/ a 2.3 gpa). After 3 more semesters of engineering classes, I decided that medicine was my calling, and changed my major to biomedical engr. to satisfy the prereqs. My problem is that in the first 5 semesters of my college career, i didn't pay much attention to gpa (not to mention an abysmal first 2 semesters), and despite 3 nearly perfect semesters my current science gpa is ~ 3.2, with my overall ~ 3.4. I have yet to take the MCAT but I have never scored less than 31 on an aamc practice, with my expected score in the 33-35 range. Other intangibles (shadowing/volunteerism) are just okay. I have extensive research experience, and when I graduate in Dec. I could enter a fast track masters program that would allow me to finish in time for the next application cycle. I'd like to go to a decent school (top 50 or so), and I was wondering if you think i will be at all competitive, or should I wait and reapply for the next cycle after a masters.

This question is, like most we have moved to pre-allo, of the form "What are my chances?" and thus is unanswerable by a single adcom and more suitable for general pre-allo discussion.

However, I was struck by your phrasing "a decent school (top 50 or so)..." I realize that we are all competitive and want the "best" school and education, but there really isn't such a thing as a "decent school (top 50 or so)". All US medical schools, allopathic and osteopathic are accredited and "decent." I won't comment about non-US schools, as I don't know them well enough. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a meaningful list of the "top 50" or top anything in the US. Sorry, doesn't exist and never will. The best medical school is the one that you can afford, matches your educational style, is in the community you wish to be in and offers you an acceptance. No magazine or SDN member can identify this for you.

 

[Doodledog]

I have been wondering for some time if I have a shot at even getting an interview based on my stats. I had a 3.8 science GPA as an undergrad and a 3.5 GPA as a grad student. I have research/volunteer experience and I am in numerous organizations both from undergrad and grad. I will be getting an MS in nutrition from Columbia University and an MPH afterwards from their school of Public Health. Does your graduate work really matter in the admissions process? Will it increase my chances of getting an interview if I had decent or good MCAT scores?

It is unlikely that these will have a major effect on your application. They won't hurt either, but your application will be reviewed as a whole and masters level degrees will be a small part of it.

 

[Doodledog]

Hi

I've recently compeleted my undergrad from Utenn. I transferred as a junior from another university.

My GPA for the years (2) at Utenn is 3.67 and the Science is close to 3.9. But if I factor in first two years from the previous uni, the 4 year GPA turns out be 2.9 and the science is around this too.

My three years of GPA is 3.05 and the science is around 3.2. I've done a lot of reasearch with a graduate prof. in my last two years and some of the breakthrough studies will be getting published.
Also, I've about 6-7 LORs.

I am wondering if I should even bother applying to any med school with such low, overall, GPA.


Would the drastic improvement in the last two years, research publications and a good Mcat score help me getting admisstion in a med school.


Thanks,

Unfortunately, questions of this sort, of the form "What are my chances" cannot be answered in this thread. We will post a FAQ about this issue shortly.

 

[Doodledog]

FAQ: Why can’t an Adcom member answer my what are my chances (WAMC) post accurately?

Answer: Medical school admissions criteria are variable between the 125 allopathic and 23 osteopathic US medical schools, not to mention both reputable and non-reputable overseas programs including overseas programs tightly linked to US schools. Each school has a different approach to evaluating applications and deciding who to interview and how to rank different factors.

Admission to medical school is neither a strict numbers game or a “crap shoot.” I spend a considerable period of time reading every single essay and every single letter of recommendation associated with every application I evaluate. To be sure, one can look at MCAT scores and GPA and determine a first idea if someone is a likely fit at our school or any school, but that isn’t what WAMC posters are asking. What they are asking is if the unique circumstances that gave them the set of numbers they have will be enough for the adcom to grant them an interview despite being below the average in either MCAT or GPA for any given school.

Since the way that applicants with below average numbers get an interview and get accepted is by a complete review of their application, including reading all of the essays, considering all aspects of their grades and reading all of the letters of recommendation, no one adcom on this board can take a one sentence, one paragraph or one page summary and answer. They can’t do that for their own school and certainly not for all medical schools. Because OUR opinion, as adcoms, will be taken seriously by applicants, I feel obligated not to give an answer since I can’t give a good one. I don’t want my opinion to be given too much weight since it, by definition, is uninformed but carries the imprimatur of an adcom.

Nonetheless, I feel for you. Applicants legitimately want to know if it is worth it to spend their money on an application that has lower-than-average numbers. They want to be able to make decisions about post-bacc, SMP, and other life-options. They want to know if they have done enough to overcome their low numbers and have their application reviewed and taken seriously.

Since I can’t do this question justice, and in fact am more likely to do harm than good, I have two recommendations. First, submit the question to the Pre-Allo: What are my Chances/Where to Apply? thread or the Pre-Osteo: What are my chances? thread(s). There, you’ll get a lot of opinions. Some will be helpful, others not. None might carry the weight to you of my opinion as an adcom, but that’s for the better, IMO, since you can balance them all.

Second, is to make an appointment with an adcom somewhere or if this isn’t possible, with a faculty member at a medical school. Tell them everything about your application that you can, the good, the bad, the ugly. Then listen to what they say. Do this with two or three adcoms and you’ll get something resembling a consensus in most cases. If you don’t get a consensus, then likely you have a history that will cause a lot of uncertainty in the actual process itself.

Good luck to you and I hope that SDN can help you. In these threads, we may be able to help you frame some of the things that have happened in your life in your application. But we can’t tell you what your chances are.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Mentors, Advisors, and Moderators:

Need a link to use in managing this thread?
Click Here for links to the MCAT forum, official WAMC threads and the FAQ for this thread. They are ready and waiting to be copied and pasted. Just hit "quote" and copy what you need. Paste the link into this thread and remove the "quote marks."

Edit (6/29): I added a link to the FAQ about applying to medical schools in the Texas system.

 

[Doodledog]

I know this question has been beat to death in multiple forms, but I guess I haven't heard anything that I feel like is my case. I'm applying this cycle, but I just have really decided to go into medicine in the past few months. I have good numbers (3.93 overall, slightly higher math and science, 36 MCAT), but I feel like I lack in the clinical experience area (about 30 or so hours shadowing, and around 40 or so hours clinical volunteering, all since April). I have tons of research, and I feel all my activities before the past few months show that I'm well rounded in general. Also, I'm doing a program at St. Jude this summer that revolves around Pediatric Oncology as well, so I feel like that helps. Is there anything I can do to improve my chances to be competitive at a research-oriented med school? Or will the slim amount of clinical experience do me in?

Keep using your time at St. Jude's to shadow and obtain some more clinical time if you think you need more. I don't count clinical volunteering hours, I ask about what people have gained from the experience.

 

[Doodledog]

I was wondering if there is a general consensus of whether a reapplicant should mention that fact in their personal statement?

I doubt there is a general consensus, but I have no way of knowing what any other adcoms think about this and similar issues. I don't think it's necessary to use your essay to discuss your previous unsuccessful effort to be accepted. I am only interested in what you have to offer with this application. Others might feel differently.

 

[Madame]

Hello,

Thanks so much for all your time and help. I'm a post-bacc student at Penn and have a general question about how post-baccs are generally reviewed by adcoms. When I apply, I will have a 3.1-2 cum ('04 college grad now trying to overcome low grades) , with a 3.5-3.7 science GPA. I've taken about 10 science classes (undergrad+post bacc)....all A's with B's in Orgo and Physics. I'm not trying to ask my chances, just what of (if any) consideration is given to older post-bacc applicants. Do adcoms place more weight on the science GPA and/or post-bacc GPA? or will a low cumulative seal my fate? After 2 years as a post-bacc I've seen my cumulative GPA barely move....Haven't taken the MCAT yet, but ECs are solid and diverse. Thanks so much.

As an adcom member, a low gpa is going to get my attention. As I review applications it is pretty much the first thing I see. My eye is going to immediately go to the MCAT. If the MCAT is also very low, I'm likely to have serious doubts about the applicant's fit with my school. So, a good MCAT score is going to be very important in your case. Next, I'm going to want to know why the gpa is so low given the obvious talent demostrated on the MCAT. That would prompt me to look at gpa (BCPM, all other and total) by year (freshman, etc including post-bac and/or grad school). I'm also going to run my finger down the listing of courses & grades looking for anything really worrisome that could have had a negative impact on gpa (an entire semester of F and W grades due to an injury or illness, for example). An upward trend in the recent past may not do much for the overall gpa but it will be evident as one examines the AMCAS application carefully. Next, I might read the essays to see what the applicant's story is ... was there a life changing event or a gradual maturation process than resulted in a late blooming? other factors? I would look over the "experiences" section to determine what the applicant did during college, how the initial interest in medicine as a career was tested, and anything else that might set the applicant apart. finally, I read the letters of recommendation which may include the applicant's biography or other information that sheds light on the circumstances that resulted in the transformation from less than stellar undergrad to the present. So, I'd say that the MCAT is the key to getting a good look and the essays and experience sections will also play a role. Finally, good letters of recommendation can bolster your case and should include at least one recent science professor in whose class you did very well.

Good luck.

 

[Madame]

I doubt there is a general consensus, but I have no way of knowing what any other adcoms think about this and similar issues. I don't think it's necessary to use your essay to discuss your previous unsuccessful effort to be accepted. I am only interested in what you have to offer with this application. Others might feel differently.

I concur with Tildy. No real interest in your prevous application. However, you should not reapply to the same school twice unless there has been an improvement in your application.

 

[Madame]

Hi there. I will be a junior this coming year, looking to take the mcat sometime in the spring of 2008 and then apply during that summer. I have pretty good job experience (worked one summer with a pulmonologist (mainly note typing but I watched a lot of his procedures and work with patients) one summer working in an OR as a tech (mainly just stocking but I observed a bunch of surgeries) and then this summer I'm working as a tech in the ER (blood draws, IVs, EKGs, catheters etc.) However, since all these activities have been actual jobs, I have virtually no volunteer hours, except for a few I did at an adult daycare center. Since I still have time before I apply, is it important that I get volunteer hours or are my work related experiences enough?

Some adcoms (and some adcom members) want to see that you've tested your interest in medicine through shadowing or volunteer work or employment. Some may want to see that you've served others as a volunteer but some of these same adcom members will make an exception for those whose financial situtations are such that volunteer activity takes a back seat to paid employment (if you didn't volunteer because you spent most of your time skiing, sailing and playing tennis it would be viewed differently than if you were working to pay your school expenses.)

I have heard of schools that put a major emphasis on volunteer service and do not equate paid work in a clnical setting with volunteer service in a clinical setting. You might check with the admissions offices of your top choices to see if volunteer service is essential to admission.

One other suggestion would be to find a service opportunity on or near your college campus and become involved during your junior year. This will give you a year of service on your AMCAS application and you can list date to present and explain on the application that you will continue during your senior year. Even 2-3 hours per week for an academic year (or two) will count in your favor.

 

[Madame]

Hi!

I was wondering about how we should present our Work/ Activities in the online AMCAS app section.

Which would you recommend...

-simple, resume style language in point form

-short and sweet, less than the 1350 character limit

-full sentences written as if you're explaining something to someone.

-other

Please reply, and thanks very much for your help!

The adcom members who read every word of your application will thank you for writing short & sweet descriptions. Bullet points are easy to read, too. Make your point in a way that the adcom reader doesn't have to work too hard trying to wade through it.

 

[Madame]

Thanks for having this forum. I am a 35 y/o physical therapist working on getting into medical school. My statistics are listed on mdapps.com on the link below if it would help. Here are some of the higher points.

- I had only a fair undergraduate career in the early 90's with a 3.3 GPA (I had a terrible Junior year). Many of my math/science credits occured during this span.
- I have completed two individual graduate degrees, one in exercise science and the other in physical therapy. My graduate GPA is 3.65 over the last 115 hours.
- I have taken the MCAT twice in the last year, improving from a 25S to a 27T.

I've been practicing as a full time physical therapist and now run a successful practice. Over the last five years, I've accumulated a good number of certifications, published articles in magazines, and most recently spoken at a popular sports medicine conference.

I have already applied to several allopathic schools and one osteopathic program for this cycle. I feel I know what my chances are now (somewhat), but I would really like to know what I could do to improve my chances for next year's cycle should the need arise. Thank you in advance for any advise you can give.

There is nothing you can do about the undergrad gpa but taking (retaking) some basic science courses as a refresher and then tackling the MCAT again and scoring at least 10 in each section would go a long way in reassuring an adcom that you can handle the basic science curriculum.Your ability to handle the patient care aspects aren't a worry but if you are rusty in the basic sciences then the first 2 years of medical school (and the Step 1 exam) will be a nightmare.

 

[Madame]

I've been accepted into a few master's programs after one unsuccessful round of medschool application. They are Tulane Human Genetics, Loyola Chicago Mams, and New Jersey Biomedical sciences Master's. NJ and Loyola have medical school courses and basic sciences, while Tulane does not. I have a 3.1 GPA and 28 MCAT. I am gearing towards Tulane because I really like genetics and it seems like you get an in-depth look at a specific subject with a small class size, but should I go for master's that have medschool courses like Loyola or NJ instead? My real goal is medschool. Which programs do you think they would look on more favorable to admissions committees and why?

I am not familiar with the three programs that have admitted you but "human genetics" sounds like basic science and if it interests you perhaps you will do well.

Doing well basic sciences is the key to reassuring an adcom that you have what it takes to excel in medical schol.

 

[Madame]

Hi!

First off, thanks for offering your help, its really appreciated!

I am a Canadian student from the University of Ottawa and have just completed my Honors Biochemistry Degree. My cGPA is a 3.84, (BCMP GPA 3.82, non-science GPA 3.95).

I wrote the MCAT last August, and didnt score all too well: 31R (13PS, 7VR, 11BS, R WS). I have registered to re-write this August, because of my poor VR score....

To boil it down: which is better

To apply early with a relatively low verbal score (<8) or

To apply late with a (you hope) higher verbal score.

No mater how early you are, a low verbal score may be too low to get you an interview. In your case, I'd advise waiting. However, it can't hurt to submit ealy and have your application ready to go down the shoot the minute the August MCAT scores are reported.

 

[Madame]

Hello,

I am going to be a junior and looking to apply June 2008. I have a 3.65 overall GPA right now, 3.45 science, I am going to take the MCAT in January.
My real question is, I know my GPA is right in the middle, I have never gotten a C, D, or F in undergrad so far. However, my GPA trend from freshman-sophomore is very static-my quarter cum. grades are always 3.4-3.7 averages. Obviously I get A's and B's...but how does this look honestly to an adcomm going through my record...a lot of B's and some A's too. I have never had an awful quarter, but never a great one...I am a very consistent person...I'm not selling myself short but I believe that is where my true strengths lie, consistency in the 3.4-3.7 science range- I really work hard.

But, does this look strange that I never broke out of the B trend- I just see all these applicants that went from 2.6 to 4.0 and I just wonder what about the person that gets a lot of B's and remains consistend, do I get any credit for that?? Any thoughts on this would be great??

As and Bs are good. No Cs, Ds, Fs: Good. A higher gpa would be better, of course, but a BCPM gpa of 3.45 will not knock you out of the box if everything else is average or above. You still have another year to improve before you submit. Try to pull up above 3.5 through your efforts in the coming year.

Good luck.

 

[Madame]

Hi

I want to thank you for your time for reading through this post. I know I am truly appreciative of everything you do.

I've recently compeleted my undergrad from Utenn. I transferred as a junior from another university.
My GPA for the years (2) at Utenn is 3.67 and the Science is close to 3.9. But if I factor in first two years from the previous uni, the 4 year GPA turns out be 2.9 and the science is around this too.

I have about 6-7 good LORs.

My three years of GPA is 3.05 and the science is around 3.2. I've done a lot of reasearch with a graduate prof. in my last two years and some of the breakthrough studies will be getting published.
All the people I've met tell me there is no way, with such a low GPA, I can get accepted at any med school.

I apprecaite any advice you may regarding getting accepted. what else can I do to improve my application?

With a very low gpa, a very high MCAT can get you a look-see by the adcom. If you can manage a score of >11 in each section, you will have proven that you may have what it takes to do well in medical school. Keep working on the gpa and rock the MCAT.

 

[Madame]

Hi, and thanks for your time.

I'm working on my AMCAS Activities/Work section and was wondering:

If I have an experience that I mention in my Personal Statement, would the AdCom see it as lazy if I copy + paste it from the PS into the Activ/Work section?

Thank you.

The description of the activity need not be that involved, particularly if it is the topic of your PS. Just boil it down to one or two sentence or even just a few sentence fragments.

 

[Doodledog]

I am a re-applicant for this current cycle. I met with an ADCOM from my state school after the last cycle to discuss how to improve my application. The ADCOM member gave me very specific advice (take these classes, improve MCAT, etc.).

My general question is how favorably will the committee look at my re-application? As I have done everything they have asked, will I be able to be granted an interview early in the process? Will my numbers still be compared to every applicant or will I stand out a little since I am a re-applicant who has met with with an ADCOM member before?

Thank you very much for your help.

Since we were not part of that discussion, it's hard to tell what exactly was said. We also don't know how well you've done on these things that were discussed. Regardless, it is not clear how the Adcom member who will review your application this year will know that you met with someone after last year. This type of meeting is extremely common and is not designed to confer specific benefits to re-applicants or else everyone who wasn't accepted would do it.

Therefore, it is my best guess that you will be evaluated without regard for any meeting you had last year. Individual adcom members are in no position usually to enhance a subsequent years application.

 

[Doodledog]

Hello!

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer our questions!

I'm about to graduate from UC Berk with a 3.63/3.7BCPM. I got about two years of lwtcrew , two summers/1year of research/no letter, 2 years of tutoring/teaching organic chemistry and 2 years of working at a free clinic.
I'll be taking the MCAT next spring.

I'm deciding, with that context whether or not I should take 2 years off and do research at UCSF/UCB and do work at the free clinic, which would be a good experience trying to work in that venue. I'd try real hard to get a publication in and also do more leadership work at the clinic I work in. This would give me money, time and flexbility to apply as well.

Or

I could go to Korea and Teach English under the Fulbright Teaching Assistantship, which is 20 hours a week with pay and housing. It'll give me more time to do other things like take classes in korean/do internships/volunteer. I'd do this for a year and when I come back I'd apply in the upcoming cycle and find some job that would sustain me while I apply and volunteer. I would not want to apply while I was at korea, trying to fly back for my interviews.

Looking at the two choices, I'm split between the two. They both allow me to grow as a person in very different ways. What would your two cents be? What would you guys do? Would my MCAT score affect how I should choose between the two?

Thanks so much!

These are vastly different choices. I would pick based on what will help you best meet your personal goals in life, not how your choice relates to medical school admission. Think about how you feel about spending a year teaching overseas versus time spent doing research. Consider the financial ramifications of each. Don't try to second guess how an adcom will relatively evaluate these becasue the adcom members will be assessing how you responded to them, what you gained out of them and how they affected your view of life and of medicine. The adcom members will be very unlikely to consider one or the other better independent of that assessment.

 

[Miss Scarlett]

Hi, and thank you in advance for your time.

I know that there have been lots of questions about taking courses at a community college already, but none of them answer my question specifically. I thought you could give me a clearer answer.

I came to the US when I was 17, and I could not fishing up highschool here due to my age. That's why I had to attend a CC for my first 2 undergrad years. When I was in my last year of highschool, I decided to start my college early and took an English class at the CC. This is one of those starter classes that teach English at the level just above ESL. I ended up with a D in that one while still in highschool. That Summer, I retake that class at that same CC and got a B.
When I transfered to a 4 years University, that D was shown on the CC transcript, but it was noted that it was replaced by the B. And I think they did not calculate that D in my GPA at that CC (3.75). Although I have a better GPA at this 4-year University (3.85), I am afraid that the Adcom will use that D in their calculation for my final GPA and might lower it. Is this the case???

Plus, I have heard that Adcom just want to see those courses at CC to confirm that I was qualified for the transferring. Is this true? Will they or will they not include that old D into my final GPA even though I have replaced it with a B??? Thank you again for answering my loooooooooong question

I am fairly certain that the D will still calculate into your GPA with AMCAS even though you retook the class and received a better grade. Even with the D your GPA is not low by any means. The rest of your grades must be very good!

Community college courses get entered into AMCAS just like 4-year college courses. The adcom will see a list of all the classes you have taken at the college level, where you took them, and the grade you received.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Miss Scarlett]

Dear SDN Mentors,

I am depressed because I feel like I am losing the number's game. I only have a 3.39 GPA (~3.0 BCMP), and I got a pretty sad and embarrassing score on my 1st MCAT (7P, 6V, 9B) earlier this year after putting a lot of time and effort studying for it (~2.5 months full time and scoring 27+ on practice exams). In hindsidght, I was really stressed during the exam and regret not voiding it (I don't know what I was thinking after getting off that train-wreck of an exam!) I took the exam again on 6/15, but I still feel like I might have not blown it out of the water (again, did not void). I have a pretty strong feeling that I may have to take it a 3rd time which will really slaughter my chances of admissions for 2008. It's so hard to be competitive!!!

I've been out of school for 2 years now. After having spent ~248+ hours doing clinical volunteering while holding my full time job at a pharmaceutical company last year, I decided that an a career in medicine (allopathy) as a doctor is really interesting and enjoyable, something that I can foresee myself doing for the rest of my life.

Anyhow, this is where I come from. Any advice for such a bleak circumstance would immensely be appreciated. Thanks!

I really don't think there is much advice anyone here can offer until you receive your MCAT score. If you need advice regarding whether or not you should take it a third time you may want to ask here when the time comes - Should I retake the MCAT?