I was just thinking that it's pretty plausable to condense medical school into three years rather than four. First, some schools are making the first two years into 1.5 years, so it definitely is possible to shorten the preclinical years. If we do away with the first summer break that's another quarter of a year that's saved. Finally, I'm sure something can be done with fourth year considering anything after match is considered vacation. What do you guys think, is this possible? Would you prefer this over the 4 years?
Medical School--Condensed into 3 Years?
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I would guess that 1) the problem most medical students have with medical school isn't that it isn't compressed enough, and 2) schools will not let you get out of completing your MD degree with paying 3/4 what you do now.
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yea the duke curriculum is essentially 3 years. it's a big draw
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Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done. Medical school is already difficult enough. Compressing it into three years would cause it to be unnecessarily complicated. You'd lose all of the time that is built in for research, studying for Step 1 and 2, and residency interviews.
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Yeah, I've heard tales of how Duke kids are at a big advantage because they all take Step 1 post-clerkships or some such nonsense.
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There are to my knowledge at least 2 med schools with 3 year options. One is in texas. I forget where the other is.
Although, these programs are only for students entering primary care fields.
My opinion. About 10/12 months of 4th year are probably not needed, but if you use the elective time to explore fields that you otherwise would never be exposed too then it is totally worth it!
Although, these programs are only for students entering primary care fields.
My opinion. About 10/12 months of 4th year are probably not needed, but if you use the elective time to explore fields that you otherwise would never be exposed too then it is totally worth it!
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So...the 4th year is worth keeping. The bolded part seems reason enough.
That would be my only reason for keeping fourth year. However, Match Day is in March and you probably start prepping your application a few months ahead of time, so by that time you've already decided on a specialty. There's at least a few months of fourth year that are not "necessary". Also, maybe if they shortened some of the required rotations and allowed people to either explore other fields or continue the rotations in the "core" fields that would be desirable in my opinion. For someone to have a long surgery rotation who despises surgery and has no desire to enter it doesn't make much sense to me.
And yes, I thought of how keeping it 4 years makes schools "lose" that extra year of tuition.
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It's also somewhere between 75 and 250 man-years of highly-motivated, negative cost labor busting ass around the wards at each medical program. You add up that cost for what it would take to replace that with skilled nursing/PA/etc and you're talking real money.
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I am a 4th year med student who matched recently into a surgical subspecialty. Frankly, I like the more leisurely pace of 4th year so I can catch my breath and relax before starting a very intense 5 year residency. I graduate in May and have completed all of my coursework and requirements for graduation...So I am in the midst of 2 months of traveling in Asia and Europe footloose and fancy free - a very pleasant interlude before life gets very serious again. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
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Count me out of your ridiculously naive plan.
1.Preclinical years cannot be any more condensed. There is already way too much information and way too little time.
2. Hands off my summer break! It was a wonderful 2 months and a great opportunity to either build your resume or make some much needed money ...or both.
3. The more STEP 1 study time the better. My school gives us a touch under 6 weeks but some other schools give more time.
4. Rotations are the length they are for a reason. I will not pretend to know why someone smarter than me decided that 8 weeks of surgery was necessary but I'm not qualified to argue that it should be shorter (and neither are you).
5. Residency applications go from ~September of fourth year until ~March so seems like you are misinformed when you say "and you probably start prepping your application a few months ahead of [the match]"
That leaves you with the ~2 months between match and graduation. Many people need those to fulfill graduation requirements, especially if they've done special projects or research. Some people choose to do electives before certain required rotations and have to get those done before the graduate.
1.Preclinical years cannot be any more condensed. There is already way too much information and way too little time.
2. Hands off my summer break! It was a wonderful 2 months and a great opportunity to either build your resume or make some much needed money ...or both.
3. The more STEP 1 study time the better. My school gives us a touch under 6 weeks but some other schools give more time.
4. Rotations are the length they are for a reason. I will not pretend to know why someone smarter than me decided that 8 weeks of surgery was necessary but I'm not qualified to argue that it should be shorter (and neither are you).
5. Residency applications go from ~September of fourth year until ~March so seems like you are misinformed when you say "and you probably start prepping your application a few months ahead of [the match]"
That leaves you with the ~2 months between match and graduation. Many people need those to fulfill graduation requirements, especially if they've done special projects or research. Some people choose to do electives before certain required rotations and have to get those done before the graduate.
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I've heard some MD/PhD programs essentially 'condense' some of the pre-clinical curriculum. Of course, a lot of that is some courses counting double for the PhD so I'm not sure how much of the medical curriculum actually gets altered. I'm not sure that compacting the curriculum for any other reason would be a good idea. What's the rush? You're already hemorrhaging funds, might as well commit fully to the bloodbath.
lol you took my post way to seriously. I wasn't planning on implementing this plan, in fact I wasn't even saying it was a good idea. I was just wanted to debate the plausibility of it, that's all. You seem to take offense to my post by the tone of your post.
You really think the people who put 8 weeks of surgery for your electives are smarter than you, or just want to maintain the old world traditions of medical school? The fact is that we are only recently altering residency hours to something more humane attests to that ideology of medical education.
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I personally would not go for a 3 year condensed curriculum.
1) Our pre-clerkship curriculum is 18 'months' (it lasts until December of second year), and I'm stressed as it is. You take away my summer break, and I'd probably quit. This is with breaks every 8-10 weeks already.
2) Third year is a year long for a reason; I've heard that most of the learning is on your own anyway, and I would not want to prepare for shelf exams with less time, considering.
3) Months at the beginning of fourth year allow you to explore other options. Yes, I'm considering peds as my specialty, but that doesn't mean that I won't want to explore some other options.
4) As someone said above, residency applications last from September til March. Unless you want to completely overhaul the residency application process, fourth year needs to be there.
5) I'd much rather have a laid back year after 3 years of intensity before starting residency, which is already stressful. 6+ years without any sort of break would drive most people crazy.
1) Our pre-clerkship curriculum is 18 'months' (it lasts until December of second year), and I'm stressed as it is. You take away my summer break, and I'd probably quit. This is with breaks every 8-10 weeks already.
2) Third year is a year long for a reason; I've heard that most of the learning is on your own anyway, and I would not want to prepare for shelf exams with less time, considering.
3) Months at the beginning of fourth year allow you to explore other options. Yes, I'm considering peds as my specialty, but that doesn't mean that I won't want to explore some other options.
4) As someone said above, residency applications last from September til March. Unless you want to completely overhaul the residency application process, fourth year needs to be there.
5) I'd much rather have a laid back year after 3 years of intensity before starting residency, which is already stressful. 6+ years without any sort of break would drive most people crazy.
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i dunno why some of you are freaking out, considering duke does its preclinical in a year and columbia does it in 1.5
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Tis true. At this point, I'd consider doing it if it meant I'd still be able to do great on Step 1. But meh, I'm not in med school so I don't know.
they mad. [insert meme here]
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it's more provocative that way
maybe "smarter" wasn't the right term but "more knowledgeable" might be. Maybe if a practicing physician made the argument that rotations you don't care about should be shorter i'd take it more seriously but i don't see anyone suggesting that....mostly because third year is when you are exploring and deciding what you do and do not like...you also need all that time to see enough variety of cases to make it worthwhile
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What's to explore? First I match into Neurosurgery at Hopkins, then a fellowship at MGH, then world domination. Enough dilly-dallying with these superfluous years.
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nice
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The match process is just as long (if not longer) than the med school cycle. Count on doing 10-15 interviews for most reasonably competitive specialties. This is at least 2 months right right.
Part of whats makes medicine different from other midlevel and allied health fields is the expectation that we can all communicate well across specialties. Having some understanding of what the nephrologist wants ordered, or how to make life easier for the radiologist are things you can learn during your 4th year electives.
I'm doing addiction medicine this month. Something I have no interest in doing as a career, but what I'm learning will help enormously in dealing with addicted patients in my own career.
Part of being a doctor (even in the most specialized field) is still having a basic grip on all of the main specialties. Hence a 8 week surgery rotation for people who hate surgery.
That's probably why there's so much anger and elitism in this forum; it's more interesting to be a provocateur. I doubt shortening the span of a rotation where you end up holding fat flaps for 5 hours will make any difference in the caliber of physician you will be if you have no interest in surgery, but of course I'm not an attending physician. Personally, I know I'm not going into surgery because of my personality type, and the fact that I can't stand for hours on end.
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Two schools in Canada, McMaster University and University of Calgary, already have a three year medical school program- its the same amount of class time as 4 years, but you have no summer. Since McMaster invented the MMI and PBL, which have both started making headway south of the border, I wouldn't be surprised if a three year curriculum was soon to come as well.
Thank you for this. To all the haters--It is possible, it has been done, and SUCK IT!!!
😍
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Obviously it's possible, another poster alluded to the fact that, right here in the US, LECOM has had a 3 year DO program for years and Texas Tech just started a 3 year MD program.
Graduates of these schools can only go into primary care, however. They seem to go with a "no summers off, no electives" model. You take all of the rotations deemed necessary or relevant to Family Medicine - which is more than you might expect.
Condensing the first 2 years is tough if you're not omitting information, even Duke (a school with students of the highest caliber who are, arguably, more capable of handling an accelerated curriculum) kind of cheats by having a few courses throughout the research year.
Again, graduates of current 3 year programs CANNOT specialize further, they must go into primary care specialties.
I do think that medical education in the US is far from ideal, especially the pre-medical aspect, which forces many to double their educational debt for very little actual education, and practically none of it relevant to medicine.
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ya, try to take fourth-year away.. i will fight you on the beaches, through blood soil sweat and tears.. fourth-year will be the finest hour. you will never take it away from me dammit.
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I was a fan of Duke's 1 preclinical year....as a premed. Now I am so ridiculously glad that I go to a school that does a more traditional curriculum. You might think that you worked hard as a premed (I know I thought I did as a Chem major) but I can guarantee you that you haven't studied the way you'll study in med school. It is hard work and you really need to rest...not so much room for that in a 3 year curriculum.
