Medical School Discrimination

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You have the same ability to access care as anyone else, so long as you have the money to do so. You aren't being discriminated against because of your skin color, language, or anything else- you have the right to not be denied access for care you can afford.
I think this is too simple. It's not taking the systems that occur in society into consideration. I think you should look into taking public health courses and maybe women's studies courses. This may help expand your thoughts a bit.
 
You have a right to access the care you can afford 😉

Basically, I'll work for anyone that will pay me a reasonable wage. Don't want to pay me? I have the right to refuse to provide you with non-life saving care. You can't guarantee people access without trampling the rights of providers to refuse to provide care to those that can't pay them a wage they deem reasonable.

If you can't afford any care, then you cannot access any care. There doesn't seem to be much of a 'right' anywhere in there, especially one that guarantees a right to access to care.

Rights are bidirectional; in other words, if you have a right to A then I have a duty to protect A on your behalf. If I have a right to B then you have a duty to protect B on my behalf. If you believe that people have a right to the access of care then you also have a duty to protect their ability to access care; i.e, afford it.

Your second paragraph is non sequitur from the first. If someone cannot afford non-life saving care and you believe you have a right to refuse them access to that care then you are violating your duty to protect their access to that care. In other words, for both your first and second statements to be true you must amend your original statement: "I, Mad Jack, do not believe people should have a right to access of care but should have a right to access life-saving care". Further, that statement also implies that you believe life-saving care should be affordable at all levels.

Then the question: What is life-saving care? Is preventative care life-saving? Or just acute intervention?
 
People go to school to learn skills and a trade that will generate value for themselves. I don't expect any other professional to provide services for free so why should a healthcare professional?
 
People go to school to learn skills and a trade that will generate value for themselves. I don't expect any other professional to provide services for free so why should a healthcare professional?

Who said anyone is providing services for free? The idea of a right to healthcare is that healthcare is accessible to all because it is affordable to all because the cost for every individual has been covered by society. No one is giving away anything for free. Everyone is paying. Doctors are getting paid.
 
It seems like you're driven by money, so why medicine? Why not become a corporate lawyer or something? I'm not attacking, I'm just trying to understand.
I want to help people while also doing well for myself. I'm not going to go broke to make a difference though- my family is more important to me than any patient, and if the system expects them to suffer so that I can help others, then I'll pack my bags and go elsewhere. If I can make money while saving lives and solving complex problems, I'll certainly take it over just plain making money. But I'm not going to spend 400k on school, suffer long hours and high liability, be expected to handle the stresses and rigors of being a physician, and not get paid well for it. Screw that.

Honestly I cared way less about the money before the debt got factored in- it's easy to be an altruist without student loan payments that cost more than many people make in a year.
 
Maybe I'm just very social justice oriented. I don't see certain careers as *just* jobs. I probably shouldn't have expected most students to view this field like I do. So I guess I'll agree to disagree.
 
Maybe I'm just very social justice oriented. I don't see certain careers as *just* jobs. I probably shouldn't have expected most students to view this field like I do. So I guess I'll agree to disagree.

I tend to agree with your view. I cannot separate medicine from social justice, not without being inconsistent in what I think medicine or social justice is.
 
I want to help people while also doing well for myself. I'm not going to go broke to make a difference though- my family is more important to me than any patient, and if the system expects them to suffer so that I can help others, then I'll pack my bags and go elsewhere. If I can make money while saving lives and solving complex problems, I'll certainly take it over just plain making money. But I'm not going to spend 400k on school, suffer long hours and high liability, be expected to handle the stresses and rigors of being a physician, and not get paid well for it. Screw that.

Honestly I cared way less about the money before the debt got factored in- it's easy to be an altruist without student loan payments that cost more than many people make in a year.
I see what you're saying. But, I don't think that you'd be put in a position where you'd have to work for no money.
 
Maybe I'm just very social justice oriented. I don't see certain careers as *just* jobs. I probably shouldn't have expected most students to view this field like I do. So I guess I'll agree to disagree.
You can't give to others without taking from someone else. I'm fine with paying taxes, but I put blood, sweat, and tears into my education. No one has a right to my mind and my skills, though I do believe I have a duty to act in emergencies- but that is a matter of personal ethics, I don't believe all should be forced to my standards.
 
Maybe the ones you've taken were. They were thought provoking at my institution.
I thought they were useless because they didn't take into account the possibility that disparities between the sexes may be due to biological differences. Such a blank-slate, pseudo-Marxist "analysis" is incomplete and disingenuous at best. There are issues, obviously. But not all inequality is evidence of oppression.
 
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Do you believe healthcare is a "luxury" from birth to age 18?
Yeah. And I'm saying this as someone who had major health issues in childhood that were not addressed because my parents could not pay for medical issues that weren't emergent. The vast majority of the world and the vast majority of human time did not have access to health- it is a modern luxury (maybe luxury has a negative connotation, but I just mean a service that you don't have an inalienable right to). Just like having access to housing is a luxury. I believe our society is wealthy enough to create a health system that provides health to everyone and that it is something we should aim to do because of human decency, not because it's a right.

I also don't consider healthcare a right because I think that obligates a physician to provide their services to anyone regardless of the payment they receive. I don't think that's fair. No other profession is forced to provide their services without receiving fair payment- like landlords aren't forced to provide housing to the homeless. By the time I finishing paying off my student loans, I will have paid $1,000,000, so I don't think anyone simply has the right to receive my service and that I should have the ability to choose who I serve. As a decent human being, I want to help those whose access to healthcare is limited, but the whole healthcare is right doctrine implies that we should always be willing to offer our service even if no one meets us halfway (eg. by the gov't investing in our education or by the gov't reducing the hoops you need to jump through to treat patients without private insurance or by the gov't fairly reimbursing for services provided to medicaid patients or by not having quality measurements that limit physician autonomy, etc). Treating healthcare as a right, to me, basically means that healthcare providers have no say in what they do, and treating health services as a luxury allows physicians to have some control in deciding what's fair for the system. We both agree that the healthcare system needs to be improved to treat everyone. But I think calling it a right, entails gov't takeover and loss of autonomy and healthcare providers being required to provide their services no matter the sacrifices. Whereas I lean more toward health being a service and instead support physicians unionizing to command a system that benefits both physicians and patients.

I don't know if I made my views clear, but we both believe in providing healthcare to everyone. I just think the view of health being a right vs. luxury implies two different routes of getting there.
 
I see what you're saying. But, I don't think that you'd be put in a position where you'd have to work for no money.
I wouldn't be a physician for less than 200k a year. In just tuition and lost wages from my prior career, becoming a physician will have cost me over one million dollars- excluding student loan interest, lost retirement contributions, etc. To break even before retirement age, after taxes, that's the wage I actually need. I'm not even asking for a premium, just to break even. If society wants to take that from me, **** it, I'll walk. They aren't willing to pay me, I'll go into management our consulting, medicine isn't worth the pain without at least a net zero payoff IMO.
 
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You have the same ability to access care as anyone else, so long as you have the money to do so. You aren't being discriminated against because of your skin color, language, or anything else- you have the right to not be denied access for care you can afford.

So you're discriminated against based on socioeconomic status, regardless of whether or not it's your own doing. The thing is, healthcare is not the same thing as other service fields - if a business owner refuses you service, the customer may be pissed, but they won't end up dying becasue of it. I get that you don't want to work for free, but the point of universal healthcare is that everyone has insurance to pay for their care, regardless of whether or not they themselves do. Countries like Germany & Japan have systems like this that allow them to provide a strong standard of care as well as pay their physicians well and not ask them to work for free. I really hope we don't end up with the garbage they have in England though.
 
You can't give to others without taking from someone else. I'm fine with paying taxes, but I put blood, sweat, and tears into my education. No one has a right to my mind and my skills, though I do believe I have a duty to act in emergencies- but that is a matter of personal ethics, I don't believe all should be forced to my standards.
I think I see where our thinking differs. You're thinking on a personal level. When I think of healthcare rights, I'm thinking about the systems in this country that give better healthcare access to some and not others based on a plethora of factors. I'm thinking about the systems that cause the poor to live in food deserts and have more liquors stores in their neighborhoods, while not providing them with access to good medical services. That's a set up for failure, in my opinion. I agree with you that you shouldn't have to struggle, financially. But, I think that needs to be fixed in other ways rather than just turning people away for being poor when they need the care. Maybe med school should be less expensive, maybe residents should be paid more. I don't have the answers though.
 
Yeah. And I'm saying this as someone who had major health issues in childhood that were not addressed because my parents could not pay for medical issues that weren't emergent. The vast majority of the world and the vast majority of human time did not have access to health- it is a modern luxury (maybe luxury has a negative connotation, but I just mean a service that you don't have an inalienable right to). Just like having access to housing is a luxury. I believe our society is wealthy enough to create a health system that provides health to everyone and that it is something we should aim to do because of human decency, not because it's a right.

I also don't consider healthcare a right because I think that obligates a physician to provide their services to anyone regardless of the payment they receive. I don't think that's fair. No other profession is forced to provide their services without receiving fair payment- like landlords aren't forced to provide housing to the homeless. By the time I finishing paying off my student loans, I will have paid $1,000,000, so I don't think anyone simply has the right to receive my service and that I should have the ability to choose who I serve. As a decent human being, I want to help those whose access to healthcare is limited, but the whole healthcare is right doctrine implies that we should always be willing to offer our service even if no one meets us halfway (eg. by the gov't investing in our education or by the gov't reducing the hoops you need to jump through to treat patients without private insurance or by the gov't fairly reimbursing for services provided to medicaid patients or by not having quality measurements that limit physician autonomy, etc). Treating healthcare as a right, to me, basically means that healthcare providers have no say in what they do, and treating health services as a luxury allows physicians to have some control in deciding what's fair for the system. We both agree that the healthcare system needs to be improved to treat everyone. But I think calling it a right, entails gov't takeover and loss of autonomy and healthcare providers being required to provide their services no matter the sacrifices. Whereas I lean more toward health being a service and instead support physicians unionizing to command a system that benefits both physicians and patients.

I don't know if I made my views clear, but we both believe in providing healthcare to everyone. I just think the view of health being a right vs. luxury implies two different routes of getting there.

So you have a very narrowly constructed view of a right here and then you use it to make a broader claim which you then attack ("I think calling it a right entails government takeover and loss of autonomy and providers"). You have a problem with the latter bit about the government and autonomy, not about the right part because you do assert that everyone should be provided with care. Believing healthcare is a human right should compel you to make a system which is affordable for everyone who needs to use it. It has nothing to do with a government takeover of anything. However you want to get to that affordability (everything is free, universal healthcare coverage provided by the government, a free market with a mandate that everyone must buy into, tiered care with staggered pricing...etc, etc etc,) is a different line of argument that has nothing to do with healthcare being a right or not.
 
I wouldn't be a physician for less than 200k a year. In just tuition and list wages from my prior career, becoming a physician will have cost me over one million dollars- excluding student loan interest, lost retirement contributions, etc. To break even before retirement age, after taxes, that's the wage I actually need. I'm not even asking for a premium, just to break even. If society wants to take that from me, **** it, I'll walk. They aren't willing to pay me, I'll go into management our consulting, medicine isn't worth the pain without at least a net zero payoff IMO.
Mhmm. I was actually going over the math with some lab mates yesterday.

I need $150K to be able to pay off my loans in 25 yr and never retire. $200K with allow me to pay off my loans and either retire or have a kid. Over $250K is when I'm able to retire and have kids and pay off the loans
 
I wouldn't be a physician for less than 200k a year. In just tuition and list wages from my prior career, becoming a physician will have cost me over one million dollars- excluding student loan interest, lost retirement contributions, etc. To break even before retirement age, after taxes, that's the wage I actually need. I'm not even asking for a premium, just to break even. If society wants to take that from me, **** it, I'll walk. They aren't willing to pay me, I'll go into management our consulting, medicine isn't worth the pain without at least a net zero payoff IMO.

What does this have to do with healthcare being a right or not? Why not have a system, like in many other places around the world, where medical education is subsidized and everyone has access to it? People having access to care does not guarantee that everyone is still in debt and all providers are paid in lint and used heroine needles.
 
I tend to agree with your view. I cannot separate medicine from social justice, not without being inconsistent in what I think medicine or social justice is.
Social justice is a concept that is morally lacking- just for whom and how? Should the extremely skilled and talented, those that start businesses, etc not be compensated for their exceptional talents and skills? Is it right to take from them to give someone dropping fries at McDonald's that never invested time in themselves and never intends to do anything with their life?

I guess I'm just kind of bitter at most people that complain on the lower end of the spectrum because I worked my way up from being a homeless runaway to where I am now through hard work and dedication. I know it's possible to make it, and that it isn't easy, but also that most people just straight up don't try. You don't want to do better for yourself? Fine, but I'm not going to pick up your slack. I spent my whole life picking up mine, thank you very much.

Plus there's the fact that maybe fixing the fact that people can't afford healthcare by taxing the hell out of everyone is kind of a backwards way to go snout things. Why not push for better education and jobs, a higher minimum wage, or any other number of things that would better allure one to afford health care? Why are we approaching the end of the problem rather than the beginning?
 
I thought they were useless because they didn't take into account the possibility that disparities between the sexes may be due to biological differences. Such a blank-slate, pseudo-Marxist "analysis" is incomplete and disingenuous at best. There are issues, obviously. But not all inequality is evidence of oppression.

Did you really just write disparity based on "biological differences"?
 
What does this have to do with healthcare being a right or not? Why not have a system, like in many other places around the world, where medical education is subsidized and everyone has access to it? People having access to care does not guarantee that everyone is still in debt and all providers are paid in lint and used heroine needles.
Like I said, I'm down a million dollars on this investment. I expect to break even. Society owes me a million and some change if they want to talk about cutting my wages to benefit others. And even then I'd expect a pretty decent compensation package that congress wouldn't **** with every time a budget deal came along and the republicans felt like making some cuts- which, oh wait, will never happen.

The second you sign yourself over to the state, your salary becomes nothing more than a budget item to be slashed and a political football to be kicked about. Screw that, I'd sooner go cash only.
 
Social justice is a concept that is morally lacking- just for whom and how? Should the extremely skilled and talented, those that start businesses, etc not be compensated for their exceptional talents and skills? Is it right to take from them to give someone dropping fries at McDonald's that never invested time in themselves and never intends to do anything with their life?

I guess I'm just kind of bitter at most people that complain on the lower end of the spectrum because I worked my way up from being a homeless runaway to where I am now through hard work and dedication. I know it's possible to make it, and that it isn't easy, but also that most people just straight up don't try. You don't want to do better for yourself? Fine, but I'm not going to pick up your slack. I spent my whole life picking up mine, thank you very much.

Plus there's the fact that maybe fixing the fact that people can't afford healthcare by taxing the hell out of everyone is kind of a backwards way to go snout things. Why not push for better education and jobs, a higher minimum wage, or any other number of things that would better allure one to afford health care? Why are we approaching the end of the problem rather than the beginning?

A homeless runaway? You should be writing a book about your story instead of fiddlin around on SDN.
 
Social justice is a concept that is morally lacking- just for whom and how? Should the extremely skilled and talented, those that start businesses, etc not be compensated for their exceptional talents and skills? Is it right to take from them to give someone dropping fries at McDonald's that never invested time in themselves and never intends to do anything with their life?

I guess I'm just kind of bitter at most people that complain on the lower end of the spectrum because I worked my way up from being a homeless runaway to where I am now through hard work and dedication. I know it's possible to make it, and that it isn't easy, but also that most people just straight up don't try. You don't want to do better for yourself? Fine, but I'm not going to pick up your slack. I spent my whole life picking up mine, thank you very much.

Plus there's the fact that maybe fixing the fact that people can't afford healthcare by taxing the hell out of everyone is kind of a backwards way to go snout things. Why not push for better education and jobs, a higher minimum wage, or any other number of things that would better allure one to afford health care? Why are we approaching the end of the problem rather than the beginning?

You dont have to approach it any single way. Taxation is one. There are other methods. That's not the point. The point is the middle ground where healthcare is a human right. There is a moral impetus to get that middle-ground. There will be pros/cons to the different approaches of how to get there and some will be better than others but they do not affect the statement healthcare is a human right.

As for social justice the answer is simple: for everyone and by any means necessary. This does not mean everyone gets everything handed out for free. It does mean that people don't die from preventable or treatable illness, that all humans have livable shelter, that all humans have opportunities to flourish and provide for themselves. They can take advantage or not of as many of those opportunities as they like but no one should: 1) live without dignity, 2) live without shelter, 3) live without access to food, 4) live without access to healthcare, 5) live without access to education, 6) live without an opportunity to gainfully participate in society. If the opportunities exist and someone chooses to ignore or violate them to their own detriment, there can be consequences. We do not live in a society where that is true.
 
A homeless runaway? You should be writing a book about your story instead of fiddlin around on SDN.
I had a rough life, and was an idiot teenager to boot. But that's what really grinds my gears- my suffering motivated me. So many others just let it beat them down our become complacent. It's not my duty to pay for the fact that they don't want to better themselves.
 
Did you really just write disparity based on "biological differences"?
Admittedly I wasn't really talking about healthcare. But yes, I won't insult your intelligence by assuming you don't understand how biological differences between the sexes influence behavior.
 
You dont have to approach it any single way. Taxation is one. There are other methods. That's not the point. The point is the middle ground where healthcare is a human right. There is a moral impetus to get that middle-ground. There will be pros/cons to the different approaches of how to get there and some will be better than others but they do not affect the statement healthcare is a human right.

As for social justice the answer is simple: for everyone and by any means necessary. This does not mean everyone gets everything handed out for free. It does mean that people don't die from preventable or treatable illness, that all humans have livable shelter, that all humans have opportunities to flourish and provide for themselves. They can take advantage or not of as many of those opportunities as they like but no one should: 1) live without dignity, 2) live without shelter, 3) live without access to food, 4) live without access to healthcare, 5) live without access to education, 6) live without an opportunity to gainfully participate in society. If the opportunities exist and someone chooses to ignore or violate them to their own detriment, there can be consequences. We do not live in a society where that is true.
Healthcare cannot be a human right, because rights cannot force others into your service. For the same reason you can't have a right to someone providing you with food (because someone needs to be compensated, food doesn't just come from nowhere), you can't have a right to healthcare.
 
I believe our society is wealthy enough to create a health system that provides health to everyone and that it is something we should aim to do because of human decency, not because it's a right.

I can live with that. A far cry from a blanket "healthcare is a luxury, not a right."
 
Healthcare cannot be a human right, because rights cannot force others into your service. For the same reason you can't have a right to someone providing you with food (because someone needs to be compensated, food doesn't just come from nowhere), you can't have a right to healthcare.

I still dont understand your fixation on compensation. Why would there not be compensation? Of course there is compensation. Rights do not mean you get something for free.

Rights dont force anyone into anything. They are just an abstraction. They serve as a cornerstone for the constructs we put into place in our societies, mostly laws, which are enforced.
 
Admittedly I wasn't really talking about healthcare. But yes, I won't insult your intelligence by assuming you don't understand how biological differences between the sexes influence behavior.

I won't insult your intelligence by assuming you don't get that any biological differences don't result in any disparity of treatment or equality.
 
I still dont understand your fixation on compensation. Why would there not be compensation? Of course there is compensation. Rights do not mean you get something for free.
If health care is to be a right, who will provide that care? Oh right, physicians. Now, what if I refuse to provide that care because I am not paid enough? By your definition, I have just violated that person's rights. But the only alternative is that I am forced to accept the compensation they have provided me with, and work under conditions I did but consent to. You can't give someone the right to health care without violating the rights of a great number of providers.
 
Not to mention the fact that human rights ARE about human decency.

Tbh I'm just playing Socrates' age old question game in this thread but it seems to me people just react to the word 'right' because it is politically loaded in our vocabulary, not because they are actually talking about rights.
 
I had a rough life, and was an idiot teenager to boot. But that's what really grinds my gears- my suffering motivated me. So many others just let it beat them down our become complacent. It's not my duty to pay for the fact that they don't want to better themselves.

You being in the .001% who successfully survived doesn't translate into the others not deserving basic health care.
 
I won't insult your intelligence by assuming you don't get that any biological differences don't result in any disparity of treatment or equality.
This statement doesn't mean anything unless you un-package it.
 
If health care is to be a right, who will provide that care? Oh right, physicians. Now, what if I refuse to provide that care because I am not paid enough? By your definition, I have just violated that person's rights. But the only alternative is that I am forced to accept the compensation they have provided me with, and work under conditions I did but consent to. You can't give someone the right to health care without violating the rights of a great number of providers.

You can refuse. The rest of us will take care of it.
 
If health care is to be a right, who will provide that care? Oh right, physicians. Now, what if I refuse to provide that care because I am not paid enough? By your definition, I have just violated that person's rights. But the only alternative is that I am forced to accept the compensation they have provided me with, and work under conditions I did but consent to. You can't give someone the right to health care without violating the rights of a great number of providers.

which equals less and poorer quality physicians
 
If health care is to be a right, who will provide that care? Oh right, physicians. Now, what if I refuse to provide that care because I am not paid enough? By your definition, I have just violated that person's rights. But the only alternative is that I am forced to accept the compensation they have provided me with, and work under conditions I did but consent to. You can't give someone the right to health care without violating the rights of a great number of providers.

I see what you mean now. However, the point remains. The right and the compensation are separate issues. Why not have a system where healthcare is a right but physicians are compensated "enough"? They are totally separate. They do not commute.
 
I thought they were useless because they didn't take into account the possibility that disparities between the sexes may be due to biological differences. Such a blank-slate, pseudo-Marxist "analysis" is incomplete and disingenuous at best. There are issues, obviously. But not all inequality is evidence of oppression.
That probably occurred at your institution. I never claimed that all inequality is evidence of oppression, but you have to be careful of writing off things as *just* inequality due to random or biological factors. A lot of the time, it's more complicated than that.
 
I see what you mean now. However, the point remains. The right and the compensation are separate issues. Why not have a system where healthcare is a right but physicians are compensated "enough"? They are totally separate. They do not commute.

you need to learn about economics
 
That probably occurred at your institution. I never claimed that all inequality is evidence of oppression, but you have to be careful of writing off things as *just* inequality due to random or biological factors. A lot of the time, it's more complicated than that.
I'm not the one writing off variables here. The biology question is often ignored, if not outright denied, entirely
 
You can refuse. The rest of us will take care of it.
But that's what I'm saying- if I can refuse, health care is not, in fact, a right.

That's like if one were to say you have the right to freedom of assembly, but a city may completely refuse your ability to exercise that right. Or you have the right to freedom of discrimination, but an employer may choose to discriminate. It just doesn't make any sense.
 
you need to learn about economics

Please educate me. What does an abstraction which makes an assertion about what human decency is have to do with building a payment structure around that abstraction? Nothing. There are 1 billion ways to make a payment structure around "healthcare is a right". If you are careful about what you mean by "enough" then in 999,999,999 of them physicians might not be paid "enough" but if in one of them you have a system in which healthcare is a protected right and physicians are compensated enough, then you must pursue that system.
 
But that's what I'm saying- if I can refuse, health care is not, in fact, a right.

That's like if one were to say you have the right to freedom of assembly, but a city may completely refuse your ability to exercise that right. Or you have the right to freedom of discrimination, but an employer may choose to discriminate. It just doesn't make any sense.

You are right in that in a society in which healthcare is a right you could not refuse to give someone care which is medically necessary. However, your requirement to do so does not guarantee that you will be underpaid.
 
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