Medical School dismissal and options moving forward

[mohi]

I'm hoping to get some information regarding a somewhat unique situation my friend is in.
My best friend was dismissed from a US medical school and I'd appreciate any input/info anyone may be able to provide regarding her specific case.
My friend completed the first 2 years of medical school at a US MD school (passed all basic science classes in year 1 and 2) and passed Step 1 (score >220) on first attempt; but was dismissed from medical school. I'm being very honest here and must emphasize that the reason for her dismissal was not related to any sort of severe transgressions ( no drugs, alcohol, legal, traffic or any other sort of red flag violations); but simply due to the fact that she delayed taking Step 1 by a few weeks after the medical school had specified a date by which she must have sat for Step 1. The medical school provided her with a letter saying she would be dismissed in the event she did not take Step 1 by said date. However she was going through a difficult time in her personal life and was not able to get herself to take the test simply due to the stressed state of mind she was in. Even though she postponed Step 1 by only a few weeks and did well on it, and subsequently tried to explain to them the circumstances that led her to postpone the test... the medical school still (as per their letter) dismissed her for not having sat for Step 1 by the date specified by them.

She tried extensively to transfer to a different US school and failed. She also contacted Ross and AUC and as per their policy, they told her they would not accept any student who had been dismissed from a medical school; regardless of the reason for dismissal. The only school who agreed to accept her (allowing her to complete 3rd and 4rth year rotations here in the US) was Trinity. I know this school is fairly new and from the recent threads it seems the general consensus is to avoid this school if at all possible; but from what I know and understand, the biggest gamble with a Caribbean school is getting the education needed to pass/do well on Step 1, and that poor Step 1 grades would be the biggest obstacle to matching. Am I wrong in my rationale? Would she still be taking a huge gamble by going to this school; even though she has all passing grades in 1st and 2nd years of medical school and a good step 1 score?

I'd be grateful for any input.
Thanks

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[Mad Jack]

There's no way that's the whole story.

If she goes to an unknown, new Carib school with an already poor reputation, after having already been dismissed, she will not match. No way around it, she just won't.

My bet is she said some things she shouldn't have said to the wrong people when they insisted she take her test by the required date- it's easy enough to take a LoA if needed between MS2 and MS3, there's no way they wouldn't have allowed for an absence if she had asked for one. Something just isn't right.

 

[mohi]

There's no way that's the whole story.

If she goes to an unknown, new Carib school with an already poor reputation, after having already been dismissed, she will not match. No way around it, she just won't.

My bet is she said some things she shouldn't have said to the wrong people when they insisted she take her test by the required date- it's easy enough to take a LoA if needed between MS2 and MS3, there's no way they wouldn't have allowed for an absence if she had asked for one. Something just isn't right.

Hey Mad Jack,
Yes, you are right in that isn't the whole story. I was contemplating writing more details; but thought that I could get a relevant response without delving into all of it. She took a LOA between MS2 and MS3 for personal reasons; and this happened at the end of her LOA year; even with the delay she got her scores back before rotations were set to start.
She actually did not say anything when they sent her that letter insisting she take her test by a certain date. Obviously she should have at least responded and I would have told her as much had I known about any of this. Still I don't think it warrants a dismissal. She was freaking out, and was still dealing with the issues that led her to take a LOA in the first place. When she was initially dismissed, she was in total disbelief. But I do think you are absolutely right in that in all this somewhere along the way she pissed off the wrong person.
She has loans and is trying to find a way to move forward/recover from this. I honestly was under the impression that she could complete rotations and would have a good chance at matching, given her stats; and that was the advice I was giving her.
I thank you for your input.

 

[Mad Jack]

Hey Mad Jack,
Yes, you are right in that isn't the whole story. I was contemplating writing more details; but thought that I could get a relevant response without delving into all of it. She took a LOA between MS2 and MS3 for personal reasons; and this happened at the end of her LOA year; even with the delay she got her scores back before rotations were set to start.
She actually did not say anything when they sent her that letter insisting she take her test by a certain date. Obviously she should have at least responded and I would have told her as much had I known about any of this. Still I don't think it warrants a dismissal. She was freaking out, and was still dealing with the issues that led her to take a LOA in the first place. When she was initially dismissed, she was in total disbelief. But I do think you are absolutely right in that in all this somewhere along the way she pissed off the wrong person.
She has loans and is trying to find a way to move forward/recover from this. I honestly was under the impression that she could complete rotations and would have a good chance at matching, given her stats; and that was the advice I was giving her.
I thank you for your input.

Her situation ultimately amounts to a professionalism dismissal. That, combined with graduating from a horrible Carib school, regardless of her scores or grades will bury her. Was reading about a guy who went to Ross the other day, had a 260 Step 1, 270 Step 2, applied to 110 programs, and only got one waitlist for an interview in surgery and three interview invites for community general internal medicine. If that's where someone from one of the best schools with a great record stands, how well do you think your friend will do?

 

[el_duderino]

I can't imagine that she has a future in medicine after this.

 

[Skip Intro]

Was reading about a guy who went to Ross the other day, had a 260 Step 1, 270 Step 2, applied to 110 programs, and only got one waitlist for an interview in surgery and three interview invites for community general internal medicine.

Where exactly were you "reading about" this "guy"?

Share more details. Or I'm calling B.S.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

... but simply due to the fact that she delayed taking Step 1 by a few weeks after the medical school had specified a date by which she must have sat for Step 1. The medical school provided her with a letter saying she would be dismissed in the event she did not take Step 1 by said date. However she was going through a difficult time in her personal life and was not able to get herself to take the test simply due to the stressed state of mind she was in.

She actually did not say anything when they sent her that letter insisting she take her test by a certain date. ... She was freaking out, and was still dealing with the issues that led her to take a LOA in the first place. When she was initially dismissed, she was in total disbelief. But I do think you are absolutely right in that in all this somewhere along the way she pissed off the wrong person.

(1) What the hell is wrong with your generation? Seriously! Sheesh. This is medical school.
(2) We have rules for a reason.
(3) She didn't piss-off the wrong person. This isn't personal. She didn't abide by the rules.

If she had a disability (physical, mental, emotional, etc.) that prevented her from taking the test on time and/or responding to them about why she wasn't taking the test on time, tell her to lawyer-up and threaten a discrimination lawsuit under the ADA. Most doctors (and the people who surround and support them) are so spineless - especially when it comes to bad press and/or litigation - they'll probably cave-in and re-admit her.

-Skip

 

[W19]

I would go ahead and do the last 2 years at a carib school if I was your friend, but I would also be mindful that my chance of finding residency will be low. If she goes to a carib school, she should try to make connection during rotations so she can have some people write 'character' letters on her behalf when she is ready to apply for residency... She probably has 125k+ in student loan already, adding another 75k won't make a huge difference IMO since the stake is so high. I am assuming she will go to the cheapest school she can find..

 

[W19]

Her situation ultimately amounts to a professionalism dismissal. That, combined with graduating from a horrible Carib school, regardless of her scores or grades will bury her. Was reading about a guy who went to Ross the other day, had a 260 Step 1, 270 Step 2, applied to 110 programs, and only got one waitlist for an interview in surgery and three interview invites for community general internal medicine. If that's where someone from one of the best schools with a great record stands, how well do you think your friend will do?

I think there is something wrong with this story... Maybe the guy is a deviant individual.

 

[gyngyn]

If she had a disability (physical, mental, emotional, etc.) that prevented her from taking the test on time and/or responding to them about why she wasn't taking the test on time, tell her to lawyer-up and threaten a discrimination lawsuit under the ADA. Most doctors (and the people who surround and support them) are so spineless - especially when it comes to bad press and/or litigation - they'll probably cave-in and re-admit her.

As long as the school has technical standards that require the physical and emotional strength to meet requirements in a timely fashion, the ADA will not shield her.

Medical schools (like flight schools) have the latitude to define fitness for duty more stringently than a mere business (spinelessness, notwithstanding).

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Where exactly were you "reading about" this "guy"?

Share more details. Or I'm calling B.S.

-Skip

This is what he's referring to:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

 

[Mad Jack]

Where exactly were you "reading about" this "guy"?

Share more details. Or I'm calling B.S.

-Skip

Million dollar mistake was the name of the blog. He was a regular on SDN prior to not matching.

 

[the argus]

Her situation ultimately amounts to a professionalism dismissal. That, combined with graduating from a horrible Carib school, regardless of her scores or grades will bury her. Was reading about a guy who went to Ross the other day, had a 260 Step 1, 270 Step 2, applied to 110 programs, and only got one waitlist for an interview in surgery and three interview invites for community general internal medicine. If that's where someone from one of the best schools with a great record stands, how well do you think your friend will do?

I graduated from Ross this past year, had step scores of ~220/250, applied to around the same number of IM programs, and got >40 interview invites and >10 at university programs. This guy is obviously not telling the whe story on his blog or it's just completely fake.

I knew someone with a CS failure, step scores <215 and still matched in FM.

 

[el_duderino]

I graduated from Ross this past year, had step scores of ~220/250, applied to around the same number of IM programs, and got >40 interview invites and >10 at university programs. This guy is obviously not telling the whe story on his blog or it's just completely fake.

I knew someone with a CS failure, step scores <215 and still matched in FM.

Or he's just a galactic jerk, which is why he ended up in the Caribbean in the first place given his obvious academic prowess.

 

[laricb]

Her situation ultimately amounts to a professionalism dismissal. That, combined with graduating from a horrible Carib school, regardless of her scores or grades will bury her. Was reading about a guy who went to Ross the other day, had a 260 Step 1, 270 Step 2, applied to 110 programs, and only got one waitlist for an interview in surgery and three interview invites for community general internal medicine. If that's where someone from one of the best schools with a great record stands, how well do you think your friend will do?

There is something missing from his story

 

[Mad Jack]

I graduated from Ross this past year, had step scores of ~220/250, applied to around the same number of IM programs, and got >40 interview invites and >10 at university programs. This guy is obviously not telling the whe story on his blog or it's just completely fake.

I knew someone with a CS failure, step scores <215 and still matched in FM.

He applied almost exclusively surgery is part of the problem. Maybe his letters or grades weren't strong, who knows.

 

[Mad Jack]

Or he's just a galactic jerk, which is why he ended up in the Caribbean in the first place given his obvious academic prowess.

This is exactly why I've heard some PDs say that you should be more concerned with a Carib student with great performance than poor performance- if they're so damn smart, there must be something else in the mix that sent them there in the first place.

 

[mohi]

(1) What the hell is wrong with your generation? Seriously! Sheesh. This is medical school.
(2) We have rules for a reason.
(3) She didn't piss-off the wrong person. This isn't personal. She didn't abide by the rules.

If she had a disability (physical, mental, emotional, etc.) that prevented her from taking the test on time and/or responding to them about why she wasn't taking the test on time, tell her to lawyer-up and threaten a discrimination lawsuit under the ADA. Most doctors (and the people who surround and support them) are so spineless - especially when it comes to bad press and/or litigation - they'll probably cave-in and re-admit her.

-Skip

Thank you Skip and everyone else for your input and opinions in this matter.
As many times as I've thought in my head 'if your med school says they will dismiss you if you don't do x, why the heck would you not do x!?'; I've tried not say it. Not to say I've never said it and not only because I care about her, but also because hindsight is 20/20, I wasn't there in her shoes feeling and living what she was, she already knows this and its so easy to kick someone when they are down. Not at all to say you are doing that Skip; but the above is the simplest unconvoluted version of the story. Life happens and it did, which all culminated in the above events and more. I could say I would never have done that; but I simply don't know because i didn't go through it...
As objective as I try to be, it gets harder when loved ones are involved; and I'm so grateful to have this platform to turn to where more often than not I can find much needed clarity during tough, mind muddling, medicine related life events
Thank you all!

 

[Moose A Moose]

You should finish wherever you can, OP.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

You should finish wherever you can, OP.

Even if it means going further in debt with no good outcome?

 

[Moose A Moose]

Even if it means going further in debt with no good outcome?

I would say yes. I'd take the risk if I was in her situation, but maybe that's only because I can't see myself happy doing anything else in life. Plus, I wouldn't want to think "what if" for the next few decades... To each their own.

 

[Moose A Moose]

I hate iPads.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I would say yes. I'd take the risk if I was in her situation, but maybe that's only because I can't see myself happy doing anything else in life. Plus, I wouldn't want to think "what if" for the next few decades... To each their own.

Her chance of matching is extremely low. Her chance of getting licensed from graduating from trinity is even lower. Either she tries to get a better Caribbean school, or this is the end.

 

[Mad Jack]

IMHO that blog seems totally trolling. Maybe I'm wrong but it's every stereotype cranked up to 11.

And if it's not the guy sounds like an insufferable tool, looking down on everyone around him at every stage of his education

I'd be surprised some guy would go and write that much of a fake story just to troll on the Carib. I would definitely buy the "dude is so insufferable no one will bring him on board" angle though.

 

[Goro]

Agree 100%. This is very sad, and even though I know what there is more to the story, it's time for your friend to move on.

I can't imagine that she has a future in medicine after this.

 

[Goro]

Colleague, you wouldn't believe how many of those Carib refugees I've interviewed over the years! We reject every one of them as well.

IMHO that blog seems totally trolling. Maybe I'm wrong but it's every stereotype cranked up to 11. And if it's not the guy sounds like an insufferable tool, looking down on everyone around him at every stage of his education

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This is what he's referring to:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

The problem with this guy is that he went to the Carib with a plan for ortho (or perhaps it was a different highly selective surgical specialty, I forget). He did all of his rotations, all of his research, etc, all in ortho. Then he applies to IM, and no one wants to interview him. Not a huge surprise. He's miserable in IM. If he was closer to his wife he'd be less miserable, but miserable all the same. He'd be in my office in the 2nd month looking to transfer to a surgical program.

It's not clear from his blog, but I don't know why he didn't apply to Gen Surg as a backup, or prelim surg. He would have gotten a fantastic prelim GS spot, and then (assuming his performance is as big as his ego) would be able to transition that to a categorical spot. Ortho remains unlikely, no matter what he does.

Bottom line is that to extrapolate from this guy to "all carib grads" is crazy.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

The problem with this guy is that he went to the Carib with a plan for ortho (or perhaps it was a different highly selective surgical specialty, I forget). He did all of his rotations, all of his research, etc, all in ortho. Then he applies to IM, and no one wants to interview him. Not a huge surprise. He's miserable in IM. If he was closer to his wife he'd be less miserable, but miserable all the same. He'd be in my office in the 2nd month looking to transfer to a surgical program.

It's not clear from his blog, but I don't know why he didn't apply to Gen Surg as a backup, or prelim surg. He would have gotten a fantastic prelim GS spot, and then (assuming his performance is as big as his ego) would be able to transition that to a categorical spot. Ortho remains unlikely, no matter what he does.

Bottom line is that to extrapolate from this guy to "all carib grads" is crazy.

I don't think the moral to his story that all carib grads are crazy. I think the moral is that the Caribbean is dangerous and limits your options for alot of things... if you even get great scores that is.

 

[mohi]

I don't think the moral to his story that all carib grads are crazy. I think the moral is that the Caribbean is dangerous and limits your options for alot of things... if you even get great scores that is.

I think you are both saying the same thing...not that all caribbean grads are crazy; but that to take his story and extrapolate his outcome to everyone going to the caribbean is whats 'crazy'.
Also, though I commend this persons hard work towards his end goal of ortho; I agree with above that some research into ortho match stats would probably have revealed the very low likelihood of matching into ortho from the caribbean. Ironically my friend worked extremely hard to get into a US MD school; spending several years after undergrad getting 2 masters degrees and extensive research so as to avoid going to the caribbean at all costs and thus avoid ending up in a compromised position of not matching or being limited in what specialty she could match into. Its all very sad really; and after all the years invested I'm sure a hard pill to swallow.

 

[Skip Intro]

Million dollar mistake was the name of the blog. He was a regular on SDN prior to not matching.

I don't think the moral to his story that all carib grads are crazy. I think the moral is that the Caribbean is dangerous and limits your options for alot of things... if you even get great scores that is.

Bottom line is that to extrapolate from this guy to "all carib grads" is crazy.

Well, I have had a completely different experience.

I went to Ross. I had nowhere near the board scores this guy purports. I am a board-certified anesthesiologist. I make over $400k/yr. This was never a $1M proposition for me, and it was not a mistake. I'm making a far better living that I would've had I not taken the risk... and I always would've been saying "what if"... for the rest of my life.

N=1.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

As long as the school has technical standards that require the physical and emotional strength to meet requirements in a timely fashion, the ADA will not shield her..

I'm not a lawyer. But, I can tell you that usually even just the threat of litigation will change things, whether or not she'd actually ever prevail in court.

I never underestimate the invertebrateness of most people in the medical profession. And, I'm rarely surprised.

-Skip

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Well, I have had a completely different experience.

I went to Ross. I had nowhere near the board scores this guy purports. I am a board-certified anesthesiologist. I make over $400k/yr. This was never a $1M proposition for me, and it was not a mistake. I'm making a far better living that I would've had I not taken the risk... and I always would've been saying "what if"... for the rest of my life.

N=1.

-Skip

Some can succeed from the Caribbean. You are a great example. I know others as well. It's getting harder now, though, and more of a risk. What I don't like seeing is the people that don't want to take the time to make their US application the best it can be before considering the Caribbean schools.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm not a lawyer. But, I can tell you that usually even just the threat of litigation will change things, whether or not she'd actually ever prevail in court.

I never underestimate the invertebrateness of most people in the medical profession. And, I'm rarely surprised.

-Skip

You would be surprised, schools aren't nearly as spineless as one would think sometimes. In this case, they definitely have a very solid case against the student, as they met all requirements for accommodation and the student failed to comply.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well, I have had a completely different experience.

I went to Ross. I had nowhere near the board scores this guy purports. I am a board-certified anesthesiologist. I make over $400k/yr. This was never a $1M proposition for me, and it was not a mistake. I'm making a far better living that I would've had I not taken the risk... and I always would've been saying "what if"... for the rest of my life.

N=1.

-Skip

You probably weren't dismissed from a US med school like OP. There's still a good number of people that succeed from the Carib, but that number is going to get smaller in coming years, making it a less desirable proposition, particularly for a dismissed US student that would be attending a low tier Carib school.

 

[the argus]

Her situation ultimately amounts to a professionalism dismissal. That, combined with graduating from a horrible Carib school, regardless of her scores or grades will bury her. Was reading about a guy who went to Ross the other day, had a 260 Step 1, 270 Step 2, applied to 110 programs, and only got one waitlist for an interview in surgery and three interview invites for community general internal medicine. If that's where someone from one of the best schools with a great record stands, how well do you think your friend will do?

Just to clear up a few things as I just had a chance to read this (complete @sshat's) blog for the first time.
1. he went to SGU, not Ross
2. he applied to 9 IM programs total (5 university, 4 community) and got interviews at 6 of them. That's incredibly good return. He specifically says he didn't try to maximize his chances, "The logic was go big or go home". And he was also told that his IM application specifically wreaked of a safety application, and basically admitted it was when trying to claim it wasn't, "I told the associate dean that I could guarantee him that this was not my backup. I had applied to Ortho residencies across the country – 110 programs to be exact. And I had been waitlisted to interview at one". If that's not admitting IM is a backup I'm not sure what is.

This guy did everything you aren't supposed to do coming from a Caribbean medical school. For as smart as he obviously thinks he is, he showed an incredible amount of stupidity and lack of foresight. It should be obvious to anyone reading this blog that this guy's problem was not going to a Caribbean medical school, his problem is clearly supratentorial.

And while I guess this represents one (incredible foolish) person's experience in the Caribbean, those of you on this board who repeatedly reference it as a representative narrative of Caribbean medical experience (I'm looking at you @Goro and @Mad Jack) are being completely dishonest and are actually doing people a disservice.

EDIT: and the whole premise of this guy's blog is that he was sold a bill of goods by SGU and it's impossible to match in ortho from the Caribbean. There were actually 3 people who matched in ortho from SGU this year alone, so his main complaint (and premise of the blog) is actually bull****. What's true is that it's probably impossible for a racist, narcissistic douchebag to match into ortho from the Caribbean.

 

[el_duderino]

Intelligence and judgment are very, very different things.

 

[Goro]

With an attrition rate of > 50%, and chances of landing residencies at < 50% and shrinking each year, we are trying to educate people at what a really bad career choice going to Carib diploma mills is, and it is you who, who by continually trying to justify your own poor choices, who are doing the pre-med community a disservice.

You're the outlier, not the guy in the blog.

Just to clear up a few things as I just had a chance to read this (complete @sshat's) blog for the first time.
1. he went to SGU, not Ross
2. he applied to 9 IM programs total (5 university, 4 community) and got interviews at 6 of them. That's incredibly good return. He specifically says he didn't try to maximize his chances, "The logic was go big or go home". And he was also told that his IM application specifically wreaked of a safety application, and basically admitted it was when trying to claim it wasn't, "I told the associate dean that I could guarantee him that this was not my backup. I had applied to Ortho residencies across the country – 110 programs to be exact. And I had been waitlisted to interview at one". If that's not admitting IM is a backup I'm not sure what is.

This guy did everything you aren't supposed to do coming from a Caribbean medical school. For as smart as he obviously thinks he is, he showed an incredible amount of stupidity and lack of foresight. It should be obvious to anyone reading this blog that this guy's problem was not going to a Caribbean medical school, his problem is clearly supratentorial.

And while I guess this represents one (incredible foolish) person's experience in the Caribbean, those of you on this board who repeatedly reference it as a representative narrative of Caribbean medical experience (I'm looking at you @Goro and @Mad Jack) are being completely dishonest and are actually doing people a disservice.

100% agree. No medical has ever been successfully sued when it was showed that their actions weren't arbitrary of capricious. med schools tend to bend over backwards to keep students, rather than get rid of them.

You would be surprised, schools aren't nearly as spineless as one would think sometimes. In this case, they definitely have a very solid case against the student, as they met all requirements for accommodation and the student failed to comply.

 

[the argus]

With an attrition rate of > 50%, and chances of landing residencies at < 50% and shrinking each year, we are trying to educate people at what a really bad career choice going to Carib diploma mills is, and it is you who, who by continually trying to justify your own poor choices, who are doing the pre-med community a disservice.

You're the outlier, not the guy in the blog.

Lies, lies, and more lies. Attrition rates are nowhere near 50% for the big 3 Caribbean schools. Match rates from he big 3 schools are 80-90% and increasing, not shrinking. Again, I don't have to justify my *good* choice of going to Ross by posting on an anonymous message board, it was justified when I matched at a university IM program at a top 50 medical school.

And as I've shown you before, I am not the outlier. Take the 2015 match results for SGU.
16 anesthesia
6 rads
37 EM
~30 University FM (not univ-affiliated)
~110 University IM (not univ-affiliated)
6 University med/peds
9 neurology
26 OBGYN
3 ortho
10 path
~40 University peds (not univ-affiliated)
1 PMR
~45 University psychiatry (not univ-affiliated)
26 categorical gen surg

so that's ~350 non-primary care or University primary care matches from SGU alone.

Again, do you know the definition of outlier? The answer if obviously no.

Everyone knows that going to the Caribbean should be the last option for people who have already exhausted all US medical options. What's so bizarre is that you spend so much time spouting nonsense and totally disregarding the facts. You obviously have no desire to deal in reality and present the actual data so that people can weigh their options and come to an informed decision. You just continually repeat the same false data and unknowledgeable opinion.

 

[gyngyn]

I'm not a lawyer. But, I can tell you that usually even just the threat of litigation will change things, whether or not she'd actually ever prevail in court.

I never underestimate the invertebrateness of most people in the medical profession. And, I'm rarely surprised.

-Skip

We get threatened with litigation almost every time someone is dismissed!
Though our lawyers are relatively decalcified, not a single case of this type has had a ruling for the plaintiff at our place.

 

[el_duderino]

Lies, lies, and more lies. Attrition rates are nowhere near 50% for the big 3 Caribbean schools. Match rates from he big 3 schools are 80-90% and increasing, not shrinking.

How many students that enroll in the top 3 Caribbean schools actually get to the point of applying for the match? Your stats show 350 students matching, out of 580 (pulled from their website) enrolled yearly?

That's 60%.

 

[W19]

This thread has escalated rather quickly...

 

[the argus]

How many students that enroll in the top 3 Caribbean schools actually get to the point of applying for the match? Your stats show 350 students matching, out of 580 (pulled from their website) enrolled yearly?

That's 60%.

Thats ~350 non-primary care and university primary care matches. The rest of the matches are at community primary care programs.

That 580 is likely per semester, not year (SGU starts 2 semesters a year). It's hard to know exact numbers as the schools don't make them available, but from the experience of people who have gone through it recently, SGU's attrition rate is ~10% and Ross' is ~20-25%. Then after the attrition rate, these schools have first time match rates 80-90%. Total matches per year from each school is >800.

 

[el_duderino]

How many matches at community PC programs?

 

[the argus]

This thread has escalated rather quickly...

I apologize for my role in that. It's just incredibly frustrating that the same few people repeatedly post false data and uninformed opinion in these forums. It's hard enough to get good data to make an informed decision about going to the Caribbean, and these few people make it even harder by continually posting the same tired, uninformed nonsense that has been repeatedly disproven.

I post on these forums because when I was trying to make that decision, it was very hard to sort through the bull****. It turns out that the source of this mountain of bull**** is really only a handfull of people repeatedly posting the same false nonsense. Someone has to call these people out.

 

[the argus]

How many matches at community PC programs?

Thats ~350 non-primary care and university primary care matches. The rest of the matches are at community primary care programs.

That 580 is likely per semester, not year (SGU starts 2 semesters a year). It's hard to know exact numbers as the schools don't make them available, but from the experience of people who have gone through it recently, SGU's attrition rate is ~10% and Ross' is ~20-25%. Then after the attrition rate, these schools have first time match rates 80-90%. Total matches per year from each school is >800.

 

[Seth Joo]

I'm hoping to get some information regarding a somewhat unique situation my friend is in.
My best friend was dismissed from a US medical school and I'd appreciate any input/info anyone may be able to provide regarding her specific case.
My friend completed the first 2 years of medical school at a US MD school (passed all basic science classes in year 1 and 2) and passed Step 1 (score >220) on first attempt; but was dismissed from medical school. I'm being very honest here and must emphasize that the reason for her dismissal was not related to any sort of severe transgressions ( no drugs, alcohol, legal, traffic or any other sort of red flag violations); but simply due to the fact that she delayed taking Step 1 by a few weeks after the medical school had specified a date by which she must have sat for Step 1. The medical school provided her with a letter saying she would be dismissed in the event she did not take Step 1 by said date. However she was going through a difficult time in her personal life and was not able to get herself to take the test simply due to the stressed state of mind she was in. Even though she postponed Step 1 by only a few weeks and did well on it, and subsequently tried to explain to them the circumstances that led her to postpone the test... the medical school still (as per their letter) dismissed her for not having sat for Step 1 by the date specified by them.

She tried extensively to transfer to a different US school and failed. She also contacted Ross and AUC and as per their policy, they told her they would not accept any student who had been dismissed from a medical school; regardless of the reason for dismissal. The only school who agreed to accept her (allowing her to complete 3rd and 4rth year rotations here in the US) was Trinity. I know this school is fairly new and from the recent threads it seems the general consensus is to avoid this school if at all possible; but from what I know and understand, the biggest gamble with a Caribbean school is getting the education needed to pass/do well on Step 1, and that poor Step 1 grades would be the biggest obstacle to matching. Am I wrong in my rationale? Would she still be taking a huge gamble by going to this school; even though she has all passing grades in 1st and 2nd years of medical school and a good step 1 score?

I'd be grateful for any input.
Thanks

It sounds like there is something you are not saying here. Your friend can try for a Caribbean school but given how things are its a risk, there is no guarantee of a residency. If she decides to go to one of those schools, she should not mess around with the people in charge there, if they tell her to do something at a certain time like take an exam on a certain date, she should do it.

When it comes to "transgressions" the Caribbean schools are even worse than US schools. If your friend loves Medicine that much I guess she can take the risk and try a foreign school, but she should be mindful of whatever she did that got her dismissed and not do it again because offshore schools are even more draconian.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Thats ~350 non-primary care and university primary care matches. The rest of the matches are at community primary care programs.

That 580 is likely per semester, not year (SGU starts 2 semesters a year). It's hard to know exact numbers as the schools don't make them available, but from the experience of people who have gone through it recently, SGU's attrition rate is ~10% and Ross' is ~20-25%. Then after the attrition rate, these schools have first time match rates 80-90%. Total matches per year from each school is >800.

How many of those >800 are people that match the first time around and how many are on their second or third attempts? How many finish in 4 years from time they start?

No one says you can't match from the Caribbean schools. What we do say is that your odds are much worse and the chances of getting the specialty of your choice is much lower than going to a US med school. It worked for you, good job. It's those people out there that think the Caribbean is their shortcut to being a doctor and don't realize what they are signing up for. The blog of the ortho applicant is just one example of someone taking a shortcut.

 

[the argus]

How many of those >800 are people that match the first time around and how many are on their second or third attempts? How many finish in 4 years from time they start?

I obviously don't know the answer to that, but I'd be willing to bet the great majority of those 800+ match the first time around. Ross and SGU have first time match rates of 85-90%. And again, I obviously don't know how many finish within 4 years of starting, but I'd be willing to bet it's the vast majority.

No one says you can't match from the Caribbean schools. What we do say is that your odds are much worse and the chances of getting the specialty of your choice is much lower than going to a US med school. It worked for you, good job. It's those people out there that think the Caribbean is their shortcut to being a doctor and don't realize what they are signing up for. The blog of the ortho applicant is just one example of someone taking a shortcut.

This is the whole point, the odds aren't nearly as bad as many of the people of this forum make them out to be. Go back and read my posts, I don't sugarcoat things. What I do is accurately analyze data, and then report it. I never encourage people to go to the Caribbean (and in fact say it should be the last resort), I just try to present the data accurately. This is something the bull****ters never do.

And as far as specialty of choice, I regularly post that you shouldn't go to a Caribbean school if you wouldn't be happy going into FM, IM, peds, or psych. This is undeniable. But your sentence should be amended to read "US MD school" not "US med school," as the vast majority of DO applicants are limited to the same specialties as Caribbean grads.

I agree that people shouldn't think the Caribbean is a shortcut to becoming a doctor. You should exhaust all other options first. That doesn't mean you can't present factual numbers and accurate data.

 

[Seth Joo]

I obviously don't know the answer to that, but I'd be willing to bet the great majority of those 800+ match the first time around. Ross and SGU have first time match rates of 85-90%. And again, I obviously don't know how many finish within 4 years of starting, but I'd be willing to bet it's the vast majority.

This is the whole point, the odds aren't nearly as bad as many of the people of this forum make them out to be. Go back and read my posts, I don't sugarcoat things. What I do is accurately analyze data, and then report it. I never encourage people to go to the Caribbean (and in fact say it should be the last resort), I just try to present the data accurately. This is something the bull****ters never do.

And as far as specialty of choice, I regularly post that you shouldn't go to a Caribbean school if you wouldn't be happy going into FM, IM, peds, or psych. This is undeniable. But your sentence should be amended to read "US MD school" not "US med school," as the vast majority of DO applicants are limited to the same specialties as Caribbean grads.

I disagree DO graduates have more opportunities than Caribbean graduates, there are many specialties that are hard for IMGs, like Emergency Medicine and Anesthesiology, these are relatively reachable for a DO with decent board scores. A Caribbean graduate would have a much harder time matching.

 

[Top Gun]

Her situation ultimately amounts to a professionalism dismissal. That, combined with graduating from a horrible Carib school, regardless of her scores or grades will bury her. Was reading about a guy who went to Ross the other day, had a 260 Step 1, 270 Step 2, applied to 110 programs, and only got one waitlist for an interview in surgery and three interview invites for community general internal medicine. If that's where someone from one of the best schools with a great record stands, how well do you think your friend will do?

Wtf? I didn't have Step scores that high, and I still managed to get around 15 interviews in internal medicine and 15 in family medicine when I was applying.