Medical School Grading Systems

[Wizard of Oz]

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My school uses A-B-C-D-F grades to evaluate us, but I have heard that many schools do not use this system anymore.

I am interested in knowing how many schools out there have abandoned this scale as well as what alternatives they have instead. Also, for schools that don't issue grades, how do they consider membership in AOA?

 

[Law2Doc]

My school uses A-B-C-D-F grades to evaluate us, but I have heard that many schools do not use this system anymore.

I am interested in knowing how many schools out there have abandoned this scale as well as what alternatives they have instead. Also, for schools that don't issue grades, how do they consider membership in AOA?

The majority of med schools currently use some variation of P/F for the basic science years (although most also have a behind the scenes ranking). But actually even most of the schools that use letter grades don't use the D -- anything below C is an F.

 

[erasable]

wow. I didn't know schools that use ABCDF still exist. I heard that Yale used to have it but that they learned quickly and replaced it. Unfortunately not quickly enough b/c when I went to other schools for interview I kept getting the admission director spiel, "We, unlike Yale, do not grade you during the first two years and instead have pass/fail." Your school may be an endangered species.

As far as I know I think my school uses Pass/Fail, but I suspect that they keep track of our rank behind the scenes anyway.

My school uses A-B-C-D-F grades to evaluate us, but I have heard that many schools do not use this system anymore.

I am interested in knowing how many schools out there have abandoned this scale as well as what alternatives they have instead. Also, for schools that don't issue grades, how do they consider membership in AOA?

 

[Ashers]

MCW uses Honors - High Pass - Pass - Low Pass - Fail (which to me sounds sneakingly similar to ABCDF). We're technically not ranked, but they have the class divided to get into AOA somehow. I've heard it involves monkeys drawing names out of a hat.

 

[DoctorFunk]

MCW uses Honors - High Pass - Pass - Low Pass - Fail (which to me sounds sneakingly similar to ABCDF). We're technically not ranked, but they have the class divided to get into AOA somehow. I've heard it involves monkeys drawing names out of a hat.

Why is it that our AOA chapter is so mysterious with the criteria they use to choose new members? Everytime I think about getting into AOA, I feel like I'm vying for a spot in the Illuminati or something.

Now we want to talk exclusive clubs at MCW, let's see how residency directors like hearing that you were a founding member of the King's Court. That'll get ya Ortho.

 

[Dunce]

Here in the land of dinosaurs we use thhe ABCDF scale all 4 years

 

[bjackrian]

We use pass-fail for the first two years--by which we mean honors-pass-conditional pass-fail. Almost back up to five levels.

For the most part our departments set given pass and honors points before the semester (e.g., honors is 90+, pass is 70+, conditional is 65+, fail is anything lower). How many schools out there still have grades based on true curves?

 

[Ashers]

Now we want to talk exclusive clubs at MCW, let's see how residency directors like hearing that you were a founding member of the King's Court. That'll get ya Ortho.

Why else do you think I started the club before I even spoke to you outside of psych small group? 😉

 

[liverotcod]

In most cases, schools that don't use GPA for class rank keep track of raw exam scores and rank that way, because residency programs are definitely interested in rank. AOA is typically based at least mosly on rank.

My school uses A AB B BC C grading, counts 3rd year double, and the top 1/6 of the class gets AOA, automatically.

 

[Ashers]

I know the top 1/4 of the class is eligible for AOA, but only 1/6 of the class is admitted. Then there's something like the class can vote for people who are eligible, so it also seems like a popularity contest.

 

[njbmd]

My school uses A-B-C-D-F grades to evaluate us, but I have heard that many schools do not use this system anymore.

I am interested in knowing how many schools out there have abandoned this scale as well as what alternatives they have instead. Also, for schools that don't issue grades, how do they consider membership in AOA?

My medical college gave three grades: Honors (86 and above) Pass (71 to 85) and Fail (70 and below). They used the percentage scores to rank us. For example, a person with an 85 average would be ranked above a person with a 80 average even though both transcripts would show Pass.

The funny thing was that during first year, we used to have to pick up our grades in person from the Dean of Educational Affairs. We would get an envelope that contained a folded grade report. We would open the bottom half first. If it said, see the Dean, then you knew that the top half wasn't going to be good. Fortuately, that system is over.

 

[liverotcod]

I know the top 1/4 of the class is eligible for AOA, but only 1/6 of the class is admitted. Then there's something like the class can vote for people who are eligible, so it also seems like a popularity contest.

Yeah, that can work for you or against you. I guess I'm glad we go just by rank, even though I *am*, of course, the acme of popularity 'round here.

 

[sscooterguy]

I know the top 1/4 of the class is eligible for AOA, but only 1/6 of the class is admitted. Then there's something like the class can vote for people who are eligible, so it also seems like a popularity contest.

I don't know about your AOA chapters, but ours takes all identifying information out of your CV and other info when deciding upon members. I don't know personally, but I hope that ethically, current AOA members won't try to find out exactly who you are (by looking up your research or chair position etc) to choose members.

sscooterguy

 

[ANCAdoc]

Honors (92%+)
High Pass (84-91)
Pass (75-83)
Fail (<75)

 

[CCLCMer]

My school uses A-B-C-D-F grades to evaluate us, but I have heard that many schools do not use this system anymore.

I am interested in knowing how many schools out there have abandoned this scale as well as what alternatives they have instead. Also, for schools that don't issue grades, how do they consider membership in AOA?

Mine is P/F all five years, no grades, no tests, no rank, and as far as I know, no AOA. (The first class is just starting their third year, so no one would have been AOA anyway.)

 

[Critical Mass]

The AAMC has a somewhat-useful database for this topic:

http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm

 

[browniegirl86]

We are pass/fail for the first two years. You either pass or you don't, and have to retake or do some other kind of makeup in order to pass.

AOA is determined by your performance during 3rd year.

 

[da8s0859q]

We are pass/fail for the first two years. You either pass or you don't, and have to retake or do some other kind of makeup in order to pass.

AOA is determined by your performance during 3rd year.

Impressive MDApps page you've got. 👍

 

[Critical Mass]

We are pass/fail for the first two years. You either pass or you don't, and have to retake or do some other kind of makeup in order to pass.

AOA is determined by your performance during 3rd year.

I've been told that Case is like this too. What in the (bleep) is wrong with my freaking stone age school then?

njbmd--if our top grade started at 86, half of my class would have perfect transcripts. Now I'm interested to know what typical average percentages are if you were to go strictly by portion of exam items answered correctly. I'd say that my house would be between 85-90 in our toughest courses.

Does anybody go to a school that uses 90-80-70-60 cutoffs?

 

[deleted77919]

Now I'm interested to know what typical average percentages are if you were to go strictly by portion of exam items answered correctly. I'd say that my house would be between 85-90 in our toughest courses.

Our exam averages are usually low 80's with an SD being 5 pts or so (at least on the exams where stats get released). Sometimes we get a mean. Sometimes we get a median. Sometimes we get a mean with a high and low score, etc.

 

[Pontifex Maximus]

I've been told that Case is like this too. What in the (bleep) is wrong with my freaking stone age school then?

njbmd--if our top grade started at 86, half of my class would have perfect transcripts. Now I'm interested to know what typical average percentages are if you were to go strictly by portion of exam items answered correctly. I'd say that my house would be between 85-90 in our toughest courses.

Does anybody go to a school that uses 90-80-70-60 cutoffs?

Maryland is like that. They sometimes adjust the numbers for whatever reason, but its usually 90-80-70, A-B-C. Anything below a 70 is failing - above a 65 gets you a retest, and below is repeat the year (except for Physio which has a summer class)

 

[Green Chimneys]

We use pass-fail for the first two years--by which we mean honors-pass-conditional pass-fail. Almost back up to five levels.

For the most part our departments set given pass and honors points before the semester (e.g., honors is 90+, pass is 70+, conditional is 65+, fail is anything lower). How many schools out there still have grades based on true curves?

Penn State uses a true curve for the preclinical years, with the exception that the P grade is typically set at 65. H = top 10%, HP = next 15% , P = 65 or 2SD's below the mean, whichever is lower. The vast majority of the students get P in preclin classes.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Penn State uses a true curve for the preclinical years, with the exception that the P grade is typically set at 65. H = top 10%, HP = next 15% , P = 65 or 2SD's below the mean, whichever is lower. The vast majority of the students get P in preclin classes.

While making things more stressful, in a way I think that system would be nice because getting a H or HP would mean something. At my school, we have ABCDF grading with no curve, so the cutoffs are based solely on percentages. I don't know how normal this is or not, but we wind up with about 1/3 of the class or more making As in classes. It makes getting an A seem like nothing. Also, getting a C is more stigmatizing because so few people make Cs (like 20 people out of a class of 160). It'd be nice if the school's grading policy basically said most people are just going to pass, and that's great.

 

[Critical Mass]

While making things more stressful, in a way I think that system would be nice because getting a H or HP would mean something. At my school, we have ABCDF grading with no curve, so the cutoffs are based solely on percentages. I don't know how normal this is or not, but we wind up with about 1/3 of the class or more making As in classes. It makes getting an A seem like nothing. Also, getting a C is more stigmatizing because so few people make Cs (like 20 people out of a class of 160). It'd be nice if the school's grading policy basically said most people are just going to pass, and that's great.

👍 methinks you go to school with the OP. Alas, whatever happened to that guy? 🙄

I support offline ranks for AOA determination, i.e. just use total questions answered correctly as the measure of class rank but don't put that stuff on the transcript. Honor/pass/fail works for me for what others are able to see. In the end, USMLE will show who learned what they were supposed to.

{Doctor Bagel}

 

[teedub]

"My school uses A-B-C-D-F grades to evaluate us, but I have heard that many schools do not use this system anymore."


yeah we do same thing (i.e class rank is based ONLY on GPA), which is pretty flawed in itself (we only have one, 100 question test at the end of every "class" (body system), and if you get a 91/100 when the cutoff for an A is a 92, you almost lose all chance at getting AOA), but they add insult to injury when everybody in our class fails and they make the test easier so our fail rate isn't 50% (now they're screwing us for class rank AND the boards). most of our class has called for a normal curve so we can at least get representative test questions without worrying about low GPA's (AND we're raising hell about the horrible class rank system we have), but nobody's really listening...be glad you didn't stay in kansas, wizard...

 

[Critical Mass]

...be glad you didn't stay in kansas, wizard...

I see that someone does remember the wizard. I'm sure that he's still lurking around here someplace and appreciates your sentiments.

 

[-Goose-]

While making things more stressful, in a way I think that system would be nice because getting a H or HP would mean something. At my school, we have ABCDF grading with no curve, so the cutoffs are based solely on percentages. I don't know how normal this is or not, but we wind up with about 1/3 of the class or more making As in classes. It makes getting an A seem like nothing. Also, getting a C is more stigmatizing because so few people make Cs (like 20 people out of a class of 160). It'd be nice if the school's grading policy basically said most people are just going to pass, and that's great.

But think about how much more competitive it could be between classmates. My school is, like yours, ABCF with no curve... Everyone is up against themselves and no one else.

I vote for P/F and no rank.

 

[Critical Mass]

But think about how much more competitive it could be between classmates. My school is, like yours, ABCF with no curve... Everyone is up against themselves and no one else.

I vote for P/F and no rank.

The problem, however, is that the school can say that it is non-competative; and then the deans will turn around and tell the faculty to use worse questions or questions from material that wasn't covered in order to cull the 4.0 herd.

I'd rather they be straight up with me and come right out and say that only the top 20% can get an A/H.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

But think about how much more competitive it could be between classmates. My school is, like yours, ABCF with no curve... Everyone is up against themselves and no one else.

I vote for P/F and no rank.

Whenever there's any type of grading or rank, we're competing with each other. If an A is the highest grade but 1/3 of the class has a 4.0, people will want to make higher As than their classmates. At my school, I think the current takehome message is that if you want AOA, you need to strive to miss no more than 2 questions or so a test. I imagine people at a school with curves would feel the same. As for how people act, I think it's about the same. At my law school we were graded on a strict curve, and grades mean a big deal in law school. Here we have the ABCDF thing with no curve, and overall it feels the same. I would say that I didn't see straight gunnerery in either atmosphere, but in both, people push themselves a lot to do better than their peers. At least in law school a 3.4 would put in you the top quarter -- here it'd probably place you in the bottom half.

Yeah, I'm all for P/F with no rank. I think one huge advantage academically of P/F is that students would focus on learning the big things that they'll actually retain instead of focusing on the minutiae, which you have to do to make an A.

 

[Critical Mass]

I'm also big on using M3 by itself to sort out AOA. After all, the application of the basic science is the most important part of the education, no?

Chapters should also enforce the policy about using more than just grades. You could have a rockstar acing all of the exams, but if everybody thinks he has a demeaning attitude, what kind of doctor is he going to be?

 

[browniegirl86]

Impressive MDApps page you've got. 👍

Ugh I need to take that down, or at least make it a little less prominent on my signature. Thanks for the reminder 🙂

 

[Critical Mass]

Ugh I need to take that down, or at least make it a little less prominent on my signature. Thanks for the reminder 🙂

Naw, leave it on there. 👍

 

[QofQuimica]

Ugh I need to take that down, or at least make it a little less prominent on my signature. Thanks for the reminder 🙂

Hey brownie! I haven't seen you around in forever. I take it they kept you pretty busy out west. 😉

 

[browniegirl86]

Hey brownie! I haven't seen you around in forever. I take it they kept you pretty busy out west. 😉

Hi!!! How's life?

Actually I'm not too busy. I just managed to break the TQC addiction. 👍 Now I browse the forums every once in a while, mostly to spy on the incoming MS1s 🙂