Medical schools that do NOT have cadavers?

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1000% agreed.
I had an MD colleague about 70 years years old and out of the blue I asked him if he remembered where the masseter was. He started moving his jaw up and down.

I believe if you forget what you've learned, that's OK, but it's also to some degree on you.

There are better hills to die on that the fact that donors cost more than Ipads or not everyone goes into surgery, and thus forgets where the Zonule of Zin is.

I am impressed with @Goro 😍
How about the canal of Schlemm !

Anatomy and Human dissection even with its distorted textures will always be important part of the art of surgery.., no matter how much the world will continue going virtual..,
Old time professors often took off the gloves to refine their tactile touch..!!

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Definitely airs out as entitlement. "I did my career research on cadaver education of all things so I know better than the educational directors in a medical program of which I know nothing about, therefore I only will be blessing programs with my application that are more evolved". Dude, you're gonna have to do a lot of things in medical school that you may disagree with and think are a waste of time. I think I did at least 5 things this week that I thought were a waste of my time. But it is what it is, you're signing up for an intensive career and you're a bit at the mercy of the people who are set to lead you there. Pretty atypical for students to tell their teachers how things should be run. What if one of your undergrads came up to you and said they did some garage meta analyses on your teaching methods and they don't stack up? I don't think you'd take that too kindly. Doesn't sound like you're ready to be a student again; in fact you're coming at these medical schools with a chip on your shoulder like you already know more than them. Man oh man pre-meds are something else.
 
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Definitely airs out as entitlement. "I did my career research on cadaver education of all things so I know better than the educational directors in a medical program of which I know nothing about, therefore I only will be blessing programs with my application that are more evolved". Dude, you're gonna have to do a lot of things in medical school that you may disagree with and think are a waste of time. I think I did at least 5 things this week that I thought were a waste of my time. But it is what it is, you're signing up for an intensive career and you're a bit at the mercy of the people who are set to lead you there. Pretty atypical for students to tell their teachers how things should be run. What if one of your undergrads came up to you and said they did some garage meta analyses on your teaching methods and they don't stack up? I don't think you'd take that too kindly. Doesn't sound like you're ready to be a student again; in fact you're coming at these medical schools with a chip on your shoulder like you already know more than them. Man oh man pre-meds are something else.
I was going to say something along these lines, but not as harsh. I held back as OP is a colleague, i.e. faculty. Students may believe things aren't important and a waste of time. Often it's because...well, they are students and may not appreciate the experience until it's over. There is a whiff of entitlement in the OP and we all can discuss the advantages or disadvantages of human dissection. PhDs, Paramedics and PAs can be some of the more challenging students to teach in my experience. They have been taught protocols or are zoned in to some minutiae that doesn't apply in the big picture and are reluctant to give it up and become a thinking, rational physician scientists. Physicians don't practice protocol, they practice medicine.
 
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That's an interesting point re career changers and the difficulty with sort of "re-teaching" or "un-teaching", if you will, their old ways/methods of thinking to get them to start from ground 0 like any of their classmates. There's a couple PAs in my current class and although super knowledgeable guys, I've heard rhetoric from them at times along the lines of "...yea I'm no good with this science detailed stuff, but if a guy is foaming out the mouth, coding, in DKA, etc. in front of me, I can tell you what to do". One of them is a ER PA currently and plans to still go into an ER residency. Just makes me wonder what's the point of changing careers if you're so expert at what you already do to the extent that being a student from ground 0 is psychologically too challenging to do.

@Angus Avagadro - from your POV as faculty, do you think there is a sought-after benefit of recruiting career changers or I guess we can be specific with PAs/medics, or are these special circumstances most of the time? Or do you not think much of it at all?
The best career-changers are those who have recognized the limitations of their previous position, and want to really understand pathophysiology. The difficult ones are those who are doing it because they already think they are better than their physician colleagues.
 
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The best career-changers are those who have recognized the limitations of their previous position, and want to really understand pathophysiology. The difficult ones are those who are doing it because they already think they are better than their physician colleagues.
Indeed. We've found that ex-paramedics often get into trouble in OMSIII or IV because they have the mindset of "well, I already know cardiology, so why do I have to study that??"
 
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I will chime in that I don't like the trend of schools moving away from cadavers. It is very much a rite of passage and a way to intimately understand the human body. Cadavers were the first ever experience I have had with death.

I find that when I dissect, I actually learn the body a lot better through the constant effort of not trying to destroy the sensitive anatomical structures, digging things out of fat and fascia, and making the dissection look good. I get to see and truly understand how the muscles, tendons, and ligaments work. I learn how connective tissues ubiquitously wrap around the muscles and organs and form cavities. I understand and become enamored by the anatomical diversity. All of these concepts are missed in virtual anatomy. It's one thing to look at plastic models, textbooks, and simulations but to practice in person is way different. It's like comparing porn to sex but not even porn with real people, hentai.

Unfortunately and fortunately I only got this experience because of my undergraduate institution. My future D.O. school NSU doesn't use cadavers as I informed you above. But my first pass with traditional anatomy and then my second pass with Gross Anatomy was life changing.
 
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Haha. Imagine if OP ends up in pathology.
 
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I will chime in that I don't like the trend of schools moving away from cadavers. It is very much a rite of passage and a way to intimately understand the human body. Cadavers were the first ever experience I have had with death.

I find that when I dissect, I actually learn the body a lot better through the constant effort of not trying to destroy the sensitive anatomical structures, digging things out of fat and fascia, and making the dissection look good. I get to see and truly understand how the muscles, tendons, and ligaments work. I learn how connective tissues ubiquitously wrap around the muscles and organs and form cavities. I understand and become enamored by the anatomical diversity. All of these concepts are missed in virtual anatomy. It's one thing to look at plastic models, textbooks, and simulations but to practice in person is way different. It's like comparing porn to sex but not even porn with real people, hentai.

Unfortunately and fortunately I only got this experience because of my undergraduate institution. My future D.O. school NSU doesn't use cadavers as I informed you above. But my first pass with traditional anatomy and then my second pass with Gross Anatomy was life changing.

Watch out for those necrophiliac tendencies..! 🤣
 
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Going to schools with or without cadavers is fine, but PBL is a stupid new trend that wastes time. I also thought it was shiny and cool, but we do it occasionally and it is a complete waste of time and energy. It is akin to required lectures. Don’t fall for it
 
I was going to say something along these lines, but not as harsh. I held back as OP is a colleague, i.e. faculty. Students may believe things aren't important and a waste of time. Often it's because...well, they are students and may not appreciate the experience until it's over. There is a whiff of entitlement in the OP and we all can discuss the advantages or disadvantages of human dissection. PhDs, Paramedics and PAs can be some of the more challenging students to teach in my experience. They have been taught protocols or are zoned in to some minutiae that doesn't apply in the big picture and are reluctant to give it up and become a thinking, rational physician scientists. Physicians don't practice protocol, they practice medicine.

The best career-changers are those who have recognized the limitations of their previous position, and want to really understand pathophysiology. The difficult ones are those who are doing it because they already think they are better than their physician colleagues.

Indeed. We've found that ex-paramedics often get into trouble in OMSIII or IV because they have the mindset of "well, I already know cardiology, so why do I have to study that??"
Dunning-Kruger effect: to understand how bad you are at something requires almost the same level of skills to actually be good at that thing. Therefore if you dont know something, you are too ignorant to know that you dont know it

 
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Going to schools with or without cadavers is fine, but PBL is a stupid new trend that wastes time. I also thought it was shiny and cool, but we do it occasionally and it is a complete waste of time and energy. It is akin to required lectures. Don’t fall for it
PBL is heavily person and group dependent, you get out of it what you put in. For me it was personally really helpful and the concepts we covered in PBL required way less additional studying. However, not every person will learn well that way, and many people won't put in the necessary effort to get something out of it. I also think doing it "occasionally" doesn't work at all - doing it regularly with the same people so that your group can develop a good dynamic and workflow is essential. And not all PBLs are designed alike, so some schools may do it really well while it may be trash at other schools.
 
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Going to schools with or without cadavers is fine, but PBL is a stupid new trend that wastes time. I also thought it was shiny and cool, but we do it occasionally and it is a complete waste of time and energy. It is akin to required lectures. Don’t fall for it

yea I’d disagree. Our entire curriculum is PBL, TBL, CBLs, virtually no lecture and I score 90%+ on exams with very little extra studying aside from weekends prior to exams. It’s what you make out of it and how well the school implements it.
 
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Going to schools with or without cadavers is fine, but PBL is a stupid new trend that wastes time. I also thought it was shiny and cool, but we do it occasionally and it is a complete waste of time and energy. It is akin to required lectures. Don’t fall for it
PBL has been in American medical education for over 45 years, so I wouldn't characterize it as particularly new. It is difficult to implement, and I can see how it would be ineffective if done occasionally.
 
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I did my masters and PhD straight out of undergrad. I was done by 30, did research for a while before being hired as a professor. I teach at a private university that does not distinguish between lecturers and professors, which is maybe why you are confused..... It's not very difficult to get a teaching position here.

I don't feel the need to explain my choices for furthering my education and making a career switch on this thread, but someone privately messaged me with a question about my post yesterday. If you can do that, you can message me and I will happily elaborate.

Hey there,

I am in a similar position as you and would like to seek some thoughts on my situation.

I am a postdoc who has a 3 year NIH research grant that can be used for independent research as an assistant professor. I recently interviewed at an institute and may receive an offer for assistant professorship.

However, I am an animal researcher with bioengineering expertise who wants to expand into human research. I want to gain training in psychiatry and neuro related disciplines in the human realm. I want to gain real life experiences interacting with psychiatric patients. I want to gain credentials to propose epidemiology and behavioral studies in humans.

I can apply for medical school now but if i take this position it is unclear if I will be able to apply as easily in the future should i decide to go for medical school. I can try to find collaborators to do human research, but at the moment i dont have any leverage for motivating collaborations with my skillset. It feels like I will likely regret taking the professor position in a few years and then wish I had applied for med school to gain my credentials.

The other problem is that I risk becoming irrelevant in my current expert topics. I want to return to these research when I get out of med school. I believe they are all related and need to be studied concurrently.

Would appreciate any thoughts. Thank you
 
Hey there,

I am in a similar position as you and would like to seek some thoughts on my situation.

I am a postdoc who has a 3 year NIH research grant that can be used for independent research as an assistant professor. I recently interviewed at an institute and may receive an offer for assistant professorship.

However, I am an animal researcher with bioengineering expertise who wants to expand into human research. I want to gain training in psychiatry and neuro related disciplines in the human realm. I want to gain real life experiences interacting with psychiatric patients. I want to gain credentials to propose epidemiology and behavioral studies in humans.

I can apply for medical school now but if i take this position it is unclear if I will be able to apply as easily in the future should i decide to go for medical school. I can try to find collaborators to do human research, but at the moment i dont have any leverage for motivating collaborations with my skillset. It feels like I will likely regret taking the professor position in a few years and then wish I had applied for med school to gain my credentials.

The other problem is that I risk becoming irrelevant in my current expert topics. I want to return to these research when I get out of med school. I believe they are all related and need to be studied concurrently.

Would appreciate any thoughts. Thank you
Not OP, but do you actually have any interest in directly treating patients? Or just expanding credentials for research? I would not recommend med school as a route for research (something you don’t really receive much direct training in) unless you also want to do clinical care.

Edit: to expand, to gain the kind of “psychiatric experience” that could put you on track to being an expert in the field, you’d need med school (4 years) and then residency in psychiatry (4 more years). That’s 8 years of doing a whole lot of work that has nothing to do with research.
 
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Hey there,

I am in a similar position as you and would like to seek some thoughts on my situation.

I am a postdoc who has a 3 year NIH research grant that can be used for independent research as an assistant professor. I recently interviewed at an institute and may receive an offer for assistant professorship.

However, I am an animal researcher with bioengineering expertise who wants to expand into human research. I want to gain training in psychiatry and neuro related disciplines in the human realm. I want to gain real life experiences interacting with psychiatric patients. I want to gain credentials to propose epidemiology and behavioral studies in humans.

I can apply for medical school now but if i take this position it is unclear if I will be able to apply as easily in the future should i decide to go for medical school. I can try to find collaborators to do human research, but at the moment i dont have any leverage for motivating collaborations with my skillset. It feels like I will likely regret taking the professor position in a few years and then wish I had applied for med school to gain my credentials.

The other problem is that I risk becoming irrelevant in my current expert topics. I want to return to these research when I get out of med school. I believe they are all related and need to be studied concurrently.

Would appreciate any thoughts. Thank you
A lot of "I" in this post. Not unusual for those coming out of research-heavy backgrounds, but it doesn't necessarily play well in Peoria.

What is your MCAT score? GPA? Clinical and non-clinical volunteering hours? Any shadowing?
 
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Hey there,

I am in a similar position as you and would like to seek some thoughts on my situation.

I am a postdoc who has a 3 year NIH research grant that can be used for independent research as an assistant professor. I recently interviewed at an institute and may receive an offer for assistant professorship.

However, I am an animal researcher with bioengineering expertise who wants to expand into human research. I want to gain training in psychiatry and neuro related disciplines in the human realm. I want to gain real life experiences interacting with psychiatric patients. I want to gain credentials to propose epidemiology and behavioral studies in humans.

I can apply for medical school now but if i take this position it is unclear if I will be able to apply as easily in the future should i decide to go for medical school. I can try to find collaborators to do human research, but at the moment i dont have any leverage for motivating collaborations with my skillset. It feels like I will likely regret taking the professor position in a few years and then wish I had applied for med school to gain my credentials.

The other problem is that I risk becoming irrelevant in my current expert topics. I want to return to these research when I get out of med school. I believe they are all related and need to be studied concurrently.

Would appreciate any thoughts. Thank you
As a medical school applicant and now accepted with Ph.D. as well, I highly discourage you from applying or attending medical school with that sort of motivation. As @Med Ed said, lots of "I"s and it's clear you are seeking MD only for credentials. Motivating collaborators should be done with excellent science and communication skills, not with MD title.
 
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