medical schools that like EMS experience/make students become EMTs

[Deranged Medic]

I ran across the article "The White Coats are Coming" in the latest edition of EMS World. The article talks about how the University of South Carolina's Medical School in Greenville is requiring all medical students to become EMTs and run shifts during their education. Since I am a paramedic who is preparing my medical school application for this cycle, my interest was peaked. It sounds like Hofstra does the same thing, and I was wondering if anyone knew of any other schools with similar programs?

http://www.emsworld.com/article/11386677/emt-training-for-medical-students?fb_action_ids=1414575215481319&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_ref=s=showShareBarUI😛=facebook-like&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582

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[alpinism]

Pretty sure those are the only 2.

FWIW I would try to stay away from these types of schools.

EMT-B is basically taught at the H.S. or associate's degree level and doesn't go into any in depth physiology/pathology/pharmacology. Med school is already jammed packed full of information with barely enough time to go through it all. In addition, the point of med school is to "understand the underlying processes causing disease" not to "treat the symptom" or "memorize protocols." In any event, its not a very efficient use of time considering the vast majority of physicians will never work in a pre-hospital setting or in the field. Most schools already have some sort of preceptorship program where pre-clinical students spend time in a hospital/clinic working with inter professional teams (nurses, PAs, RTs, etc...). Ours was 2x a month where we saw patients, practiced doing a Hx and PE, went over which labs/imaging/tests to order, came up with a DDx, and helped with procedures or prescribing medications.

Not to mention most of the things EMTs do aren't supported by science or any meaningful research
(c-collars, backboards, O2, ACLS medications, IVF in trauma, etc...)

 

[Deranged Medic]

I think you missed the point-I already work as a paramedic. Not to start a war here, but while I agree EMS could use more research, many organizations (mine included) have quit using backboards, follow AHA recommendations for oxygen titrations and ACLS protocols, and have permissive hypotension protocols for trauma patients.

 

[Dwindlin]

Not to mention most of the things EMTs do aren't supported by science or any meaningful research
(c-collars, backboards, O2, ACLS medications, IVF in trauma, etc...)

Also, not to derail the thread, and yes EMS needs more research emphasis, but do you know how much **** we do in the hospital every day with absolutely no evidence what so ever (or better the stuff we do that has evidence to show it DOESN'T do anything)? That door swings both ways friend and is a lame argument against med students in the pre-hospital arena.

 

[alpinism]

Oh believe me I know.

Its just frustrating how many people involved in EMS have no interest in EBM or doing quality research. The vast majority of the things EMTs do today are the same as 40yrs ago. You could even make the argument that EMS has gone backwards since the days of the ambulance drivers in the 1950s.

We had grand rounds the other day with George Velhamos (trauma chief at MGH). He's been arguing with EMS over IV fluids for years and its gotten to the point now that the first thing he does with a newly arrived trauma (before ABCs or primary assessment) is shut off the IVs. We've known about permissive hypotension since before 1992 when Ken Mattox published his study at Ben Taub. In spite of this most EMTs are still taught to give fluids to trauma pts (at least where I’ve worked).

But yes I'm not a fan of a ton of things that we do in the hospital either but that could be a whole other thread...

 

[Deranged Medic]

As I see it, there are 2 options. One is to sit around and complain about what EMS sucks at. The other is to try to better the profession, which is what I am attempting to do by applying to medical school. I am as frustrated as you are about some of the things EMS does, but as a paramedic, I have very little say regarding what treatments we perform. However, as an EMS medical director, I would have the ability to make some of these changes.

The original intention of this thread was to see if there are specific schools who really appreciate EMS experience. It has had a large influence on my decision to pursue medicine, and it would make me happy to attend a school who saw the value in that.

 

[deleted6669]

When I was in PA school in philadelphia> 20 years ago, the med students at PCOM had the option of doing emt-b during ms1. don't know if that is still an option. one of my partners( I worked as a medic then) was a med student from that program.

 

[Deranged Medic]

When I was in PA school in philadelphia> 20 years ago, the med students at PCOM had the option of doing emt-b during ms1. don't know if that is still an option. one of my partners( I worked as a medic then) was a med student from that program.

Awesome! I will look into it.

 

[OCDEMS]

DO schools, in my experience, seem to give a serious look to anyone with previous meaningful background in medicine. I'm sure there are several MD schools that do the same.

As I've written in another thread, I think a practicing paramedic is a very safe bet for a medical school. I'd say that most medical schools anecdotally know that. The only issue I encountered was on the interview trail: your interviewer(s) may or may not believe that taking a paramedic is a virtual guarantee for someone wanting to go into emergency medicine. You really need to demonstrate a love of medicine that goes beyond wanting to be a paramedic on steroids. Being a physician is substantially different (I think you know that) and it's important to articulate this in your demeanor and presence during the interview.

I wouldn't advise anyone to apply to medical school with hopes that their background gets you in. Sure, it'll intrigue an ADCOM but it can't entirely replace a fundamentally strong education in the sciences and an acceptable MCAT score. I think previous medical experience really gets you over the EC hurdle, because it makes you such a well-rounded applicant. You have a diverse array of experiences to bring to the interview. I do think it probably lowers some of the hurdles that a less interesting, cookie-cutter applicant has to overcome (crazy high scores, tons of stereotypical volunteer experiences, obligatory time in a lab, etc).

Genuineness is probably one of the most impressing things in a person, in my opinion. Someone who is humble, with interesting and meaningful life experiences, is probably going to have an advantage over someone checking the boxes on the way to an MD/DO.

 

[unexpected_medicine]

Don't ALL schools appreciate EMT training? Also don't most medical students go through ambulatory care training?

 

[Deranged Medic]

Thanks for all the good info!

 

[Novakaine]

DO schools, in my experience, seem to give a serious look to anyone with previous meaningful background in medicine. I'm sure there are several MD schools that do the same.

As I've written in another thread, I think a practicing paramedic is a very safe bet for a medical school. I'd say that most medical schools anecdotally know that. The only issue I encountered was on the interview trail: your interviewer(s) may or may not believe that taking a paramedic is a virtual guarantee for someone wanting to go into emergency medicine. You really need to demonstrate a love of medicine that goes beyond wanting to be a paramedic on steroids. Being a physician is substantially different (I think you know that) and it's important to articulate this in your demeanor and presence during the interview.

I wouldn't advise anyone to apply to medical school with hopes that their background gets you in. Sure, it'll intrigue an ADCOM but it can't entirely replace a fundamentally strong education in the sciences and an acceptable MCAT score. I think previous medical experience really gets you over the EC hurdle, because it makes you such a well-rounded applicant. You have a diverse array of experiences to bring to the interview. I do think it probably lowers some of the hurdles that a less interesting, cookie-cutter applicant has to overcome (crazy high scores, tons of stereotypical volunteer experiences, obligatory time in a lab, etc).

Genuineness is probably one of the most impressing things in a person, in my opinion. Someone who is humble, with interesting and meaningful life experiences, is probably going to have an advantage over someone checking the boxes on the way to an MD/DO.

What type of activities do you suggest for a medic to do to diversify your application and show that your interested in more than EM (or not EM at all actually)?

 

[Dwindlin]

What type of activities do you suggest for a medic to do to diversify your application and show that your interested in more than EM (or not EM at all actually)?

Just because you're a Paramedic doesn't say anything about your future specialty choice to schools, unless they ask at the interview and you tell them. Of the handful of paramedics who were enrolled around the same time I was, none went into EM (by choice), I choose Anesthesia, two choose Surgery, one OB, and one Internal.

 

[fez68w]

Being a military EMT-B, this thread is very interesting. I like the differing views

 

[OCDEMS]

What type of activities do you suggest for a medic to do to diversify your application and show that your interested in more than EM (or not EM at all actually)?

I don't think you need to address it at all. It's virtually impossible for a medical student to articulate an educated and detailed interest in any given speciality. Sure, plenty of people come in with a goal and eventually reach it, but without a deep knowledge of the different specialities, which is achieved through your 3rd and 4th year rotations, any diversionary tactic geared toward showing interest in another speciality would probably be a waste of time. The best thing to do, in my opinion, is recognize that a clinically experienced individual (nurse, PA, paramedic) is a known commodity and take advantage of that in your application in an appropriate way. Don't come off as a know-it-all in your interviews and you'll be fine. Basically, be humble. My background came up in virtually every one of my interviews but it was never, "So, you're a paramedic. Tell me about that." It was generally in reference to my outlook on medicine, view of primary care physicians or the importance of primary care, where I saw myself in 10 years, etc, etc. As a clinician, you have realistic exposure to what healthcare actually is and this can lend itself to genuineness during the interview in ways that many applicants can't emulate.

As others have mentioned, you may decide that EM is not for you. There are many great fields in medicine, several of which might peak the interest of an aspiring doctor.

 

[alpinism]

DO schools, in my experience, seem to give a serious look to anyone with previous meaningful background in medicine. I'm sure there are several MD schools that do the same.

As I've written in another thread, I think a practicing paramedic is a very safe bet for a medical school. I'd say that most medical schools anecdotally know that. The only issue I encountered was on the interview trail: your interviewer(s) may or may not believe that taking a paramedic is a virtual guarantee for someone wanting to go into emergency medicine. You really need to demonstrate a love of medicine that goes beyond wanting to be a paramedic on steroids. Being a physician is substantially different (I think you know that) and it's important to articulate this in your demeanor and presence during the interview.

I wouldn't advise anyone to apply to medical school with hopes that their background gets you in. Sure, it'll intrigue an ADCOM but it can't entirely replace a fundamentally strong education in the sciences and an acceptable MCAT score. I think previous medical experience really gets you over the EC hurdle, because it makes you such a well-rounded applicant. You have a diverse array of experiences to bring to the interview. I do think it probably lowers some of the hurdles that a less interesting, cookie-cutter applicant has to overcome (crazy high scores, tons of stereotypical volunteer experiences, obligatory time in a lab, etc).

Genuineness is probably one of the most impressing things in a person, in my opinion. Someone who is humble, with interesting and meaningful life experiences, is probably going to have an advantage over someone checking the boxes on the way to an MD/DO.

Great post. Agreed.

Don't ALL schools appreciate EMT training? Also don't most medical students go through ambulatory care training?

Yes. Having more clinical experience is never a bad thing.

Re: the second question, it all depends on the med school. Some schools don't have a mandatory EM rotation so its safe to say many students there don't get any training in ambulatory care/prehospital medicine unless they take an elective course.

 

[Dwindlin]

Yes. Having more clinical experience is never a bad thing.

Have to be careful with this piece of advice, because it may not be true across the board. While I think it is slowly changing there does exist out there academic attendings who do not like previous nurses/PAs/medics/etc. One that I personally had dealings with lamented at all the bad habits he always had to break from those with previous healthcare experience.

Some (no matter what kind of interactions you've had with them) will view you as un-willing to be taught.

And frankly there still exists a not insignificant group who just do not like EMS/midlevels in general and wish it were still the days were the local funeral home got the Hearse out and dumped the lifeless corps off at the hospital with no care rendered.

Having said that would I discourage someone from EMS? No, assuming they were legitimately interested outside of a resume booster. As has been stated on here ad nauseum it really doesn't impress ADCOMs as much as people think, and there are much easier and cheaper ways to pad your resume that carry more impact factor.

 

[Deranged Medic]

Have to be careful with this piece of advice, because it may not be true across the board. While I think it is slowly changing there does exist out there academic attendings who do not like previous nurses/PAs/medics/etc.

I have heard this. I was secretly hoping it wasn't true...

 

[unexpected_medicine]

Have to be careful with this piece of advice, because it may not be true across the board. While I think it is slowly changing there does exist out there academic attendings who do not like previous nurses/PAs/medics/etc. One that I personally had dealings with lamented at all the bad habits he always had to break from those with previous healthcare experience.

Some (no matter what kind of interactions you've had with them) will view you as un-willing to be taught.

And frankly there still exists a not insignificant group who just do not like EMS/midlevels in general and wish it were still the days were the local funeral home got the Hearse out and dumped the lifeless corps off at the hospital with no care rendered.

Having said that would I discourage someone from EMS? No, assuming they were legitimately interested outside of a resume booster. As has been stated on here ad nauseum it really doesn't impress ADCOMs as much as people think, and there are much easier and cheaper ways to pad your resume that carry more impact factor.

Out of curiosity, what are these bad habits?

 

[MedicOnAMission]

As this thread is relatively active, pardon the bump please.

To avoid the distractions that tend to run on these threads let me provide some background:
I initially started the pre-med program at Creighton back in 98. After 2 years I left school to get some direction in my life.
I spent more time out of school than I thought I would, but in 2010 I got back into academics. Over the course of the past 4 years, I have earned my CNA, my EMT-B, an associates in health care studies-Paramedicine, and I recently graduated Creighton University with a BS-EMS with certifications in Critical Care/Flight as well as EMS systems management.
I realized that I am no where near finished with my education and I would like to fulfill my dream of becoming an Emergency Physician. In about 9 months I will have completed my Pre-Med requirements. I plan on taking 3 months to study for the MCAT. I need a higher score as, I must admit, my GPA from my 1st 2 years are lackluster. However, since returning to school, I hold a 3.8 and my overall GPA has risen to 3.0. I have about 8 classes left to help boost that even more.
I am looking for solid advice on how to make this dream come true.
I thank you all in advance.

 

[Deranged Medic]

I plan on taking 3 months to study for the MCAT. I need a higher score as, I must admit, my GPA from my 1st 2 years are lackluster.

First, I am no expert on medical school admissions, and hopefully, someone else will have better advice for you. However, I would recommend utilizing a study plan for the MCAT. My study time was not very structured, and I did not do as well as I would have hoped. I am going to try this schedule the next time around: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/breaking-down-the-mcat-a-3-month-mcat-study-schedule.623898/

Also, DO schools offer grade replacement, and if you have the option to retake a couple of classes, it might help raise your GPA. It has been rumored they place greater value on your previous experiences than MD schools do, which could be to your benefit as well.

 

[Cawolf]

Hello - I am a practicing paramedic/current post-bac student applying in 2015.

I have only heard of Hofstra until you mentioned USC Greenville. I believe that Hofstra will place value on prior meaningful and dedicated pre-hospital experience.

Best of luck.

 

[optimistic3]

Have to be careful with this piece of advice, because it may not be true across the board. While I think it is slowly changing there does exist out there academic attendings who do not like previous nurses/PAs/medics/etc. One that I personally had dealings with lamented at all the bad habits he always had to break from those with previous healthcare experience.

Some (no matter what kind of interactions you've had with them) will view you as un-willing to be taught.

And frankly there still exists a not insignificant group who just do not like EMS/midlevels in general and wish it were still the days were the local funeral home got the Hearse out and dumped the lifeless corps off at the hospital with no care rendered.

Having said that would I discourage someone from EMS? No, assuming they were legitimately interested outside of a resume booster. As has been stated on here ad nauseum it really doesn't impress ADCOMs as much as people think, and there are much easier and cheaper ways to pad your resume that carry more impact factor.

Would you care to elaborate on the bolded portion? What do you think would be better than going the EMT route? I am planning on becoming certified and working (hopefully) as an EMT before I apply next year to add some hands-on clinical experience to my application.

 

[OCDEMS]

Would you care to elaborate on the bolded portion? What do you think would be better than going the EMT route? I am planning on becoming certified and working (hopefully) as an EMT before I apply next year to add some hands-on clinical experience to my application.

This has been elaborated on in other threads, but the general thought is that EMT certification has become a canned application EC. There are a significant number of colleges and technical schools that offer the course and there is no shortage of competitive medical school applicants who will take the course simply to put it on an application.

In general, experience as a paramedic is looked upon favorably, but typically only if there is some meaningful practice behind that license. Even the paramedic route is starting to show signs of ambitious premeds who try and use it as their "in" to gain admission to medical school. It might seem crazy to think that someone would go through 1000+ hours of didactic and clinical training to simply gain admission to medical school, but I've seen a few empty suits in my travels; i.e. people who hold paramedic certification, maybe even licensure, and don't seem to have used it clinically.

If you were looking to fill an extracurricular spot, I think most people would say that research experiences probably offer more bang for the buck. This will also depends on how meaningful that experience is. In general, there are certain medical schools that seem to salivate over research experiences. I think of you were going to go the EMT route, and forgo further EMS training (paramedic), then you would really need to acquire significant clinical experience or mix it with some other EC.

 

[optimistic3]

This has been elaborated on in other threads, but the general thought is that EMT certification has become a canned application EC. There are a significant number of colleges and technical schools that offer the course and there is no shortage of competitive medical school applicants who will take the course simply to put it on an application.

In general, experience as a paramedic is looked upon favorably, but typically only if there is some meaningful practice behind that license. Even the paramedic route is starting to show signs of ambitious premeds who try and use it as their "in" to gain admission to medical school. It might seem crazy to think that someone would go through 1000+ hours of didactic and clinical training to simply gain admission to medical school, but I've seen a few empty suits in my travels; i.e. people who hold paramedic certification, maybe even licensure, and don't seem to have used it clinically.

If you were looking to fill an extracurricular spot, I think most people would say that research experiences probably offer more bang for the buck. This will also depends on how meaningful that experience is. In general, there are certain medical schools that seem to salivate over research experiences. I think of you were going to go the EMT route, and forgo further EMS training (paramedic), then you would really need to acquire significant clinical experience or mix it with some other EC.

Thank you for your reply. I figured research would be the answer but I feel like I'd be very unhappy if I did research (assuming I can even get in somewhere! I tried to last year). I never really liked my lab classes in undergrad and I wasn't always that great. Maybe I'm naive and uninformed but wouldn't it be better doing something that I'd enjoy than not?

 

[OCDEMS]

Thank you for your reply. I figured research would be the answer but I feel like I'd be very unhappy if I did research (assuming I can even get in somewhere! I tried to last year). I never really liked my lab classes in undergrad and I wasn't always that great. Maybe I'm naive and uninformed but wouldn't it be better doing something that I'd enjoy than not?

Of course. If you really love EMS, do it. Just understand that you'll need to seriously commit to standing out from the crowd of people who will use it purely to gain admission.