Perrotfish

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Does anyone know if there is a national organization for medical students for life? My school has a reproductive rights society but no complementary group for pro-life students, I'd like to know what's involved with starting such a group. I know several other medical schools do have such an organization, I was just wondering if they were an offshoot of a parent organization or their own independent groups. Also does anyone know the usual content of these groups' meetings?

PS, I'm not trying to start a flame war about right to life vs. pro choice. I'm looking for information about pro-life groups for medical students, not your general opinions about being pro life (for or against). Thank you for understanding.
 

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I don't see a need for any such group since it is unethical for a doctor to try to persuade a patient to have or not to have an abortion based on their own personal beliefs.
 

Perrotfish

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I don't see a need for any such group since it is unethical for a doctor to try to persuade a patient to have or not to have an abortion based on their own personal beliefs.
The main reason for such a group is to, during the medical school years, help equip physicians to inform their patients about the various social support servies available to them if they should decide to choose life. Daycare, medicaid, how to start the adoption process, etc. Anyone who has worked with social services at the hospital knows they're too overloaded to do this job adequately for every unplaned pregnancy. An uninformed decision favors abortion: patients (especially younger, or teenage patientes) are going to be at their most scared when they've just found out they have an unplaned pregancy, and a doctor who says "uh.. I guess you could look into adoption, or something" is uninformed to the point that he's basically pushing her to have an abortion.

The other reason is, just like the various political and religious groups at every school (including my school's reproductive rights group), is to provide a meeting place for students with similar beliefs. A jumping off point for pro-life political rallies, letter writing campaigns, etc.

One of things I'm trying to find out here is which of those two missions pro-life groups in medical schools tend to focus on. Are these mainly groups that help teach students how to counsul patients or are they mainly political groups.
 
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Apparently the Univ of Wisconsin SOM has a group called "Medical Students for Life." I don't think it would be that difficult to start a chapter or similar group at your own institution, provided you recruit enough members to procure funding from your student gov't (or however it works at your school). Here at Maryland, students can start groups for whatever purposes they see fit, as long as they go through all of the official channels (which entails securing a bank account, recruiting and compiling a list of members, then submitting a proposal and funding request form to the student council, who ultimately decides how much of the annual funds will go to each group, which is mainly based on 1) membership, 2) duration of existence of the group, and 3) planned activities).

While I am a member of MSFC, I don't see why a group of pro-life students shouldn't be allowed to start their own interest group, as long as they do what is expected of them by their student council/OSA to become "official" before asking for funding (as is the case for any other student group).
 

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Fair enough, but I'm just curious if you would also educate the patient about the social ramifications and financial burden a child brings?

As far as I was taught in our ethics class, our job is to educate the patient about the abortion procedure/risks and let them make their own decision. As you mentioned, social workers are supposed to take care of the rest. As for the social workers being overworked, aren't many doctors overworked as well?

Sorry if I'm bringing this off-topic, it's just my pro-choice side showing. :)
 

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Does anyone know if there is a national organization for medical students for life? My school has a reproductive rights society but no complementary group for pro-life students, I'd like to know what's involved with starting such a group. I know several other medical schools do have such an organization, I was just wondering if they were an offshoot of a parent organization or their own independent groups. Also does anyone know the usual content of these groups' meetings?

PS, I'm not trying to start a flame war about right to life vs. pro choice. I'm looking for information about pro-life groups for medical students, not your general opinions about being pro life (for or against). Thank you for understanding.
They have one at my school, it's called "Christian MEdical Students Association". Oh **** I'm going to get burned at the steak for this.
 

Perrotfish

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Fair enough, but I'm just curious if you would also educate the patient about the social ramifications and financial burden a child brings?

No more than you would give them a spiel about how many people will ostrasize and judge them if they have an abortion. This strays into the realm of opinion and speculation. However I think informing them of any service offered in the hospital (social services) is definitely in the physician's perview. Anything definitive, really. This is espeically true of Family Physicians who may not have Social Services on site.

As far as I was taught in our ethics class, our job is to educate the patient about the abortion procedure/risks and let them make their own decision.
Until the next Supreme court decision I don't think we have a choice but to agree with you. However I think that educating a patient includes educating them about the various support services available. You definitely have the option to do so.

As you mentioned, social workers are supposed to take care of the rest. As for the social workers being overworked, aren't many doctors overworked as well?
Well, yeah, the social worker should, but they don't. If they're even on site. The doctor, overworked as it is, is making a consicous decision to take the time because of his/her beliefs. The social worker could do that to, but you can't rely on them. It's you're beliefs, no necessarily theirs.

They have one at my school, it's called "Christian MEdical Students Association". Oh **** I'm going to get burned at the steak for this.

Even if you concede it's a religious thing (which I don't, really. It only divides along religious fault lines in the US) it's not necessarily a religious thing that can be covered by one group. Our school has a Christian (basically Protestant) association, a Catholic Students association, a Muslim Student association, and a Jewish student association, all of which have at least some members whose religions support them choosing life. Also some of the more liberal sects of the American Christian and Jewish sects allow or even encourage a pro-choice stance. So you would still need a pro-life group.
 

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PS, I'm not trying to start a flame war about right to life vs. pro choice. I'm looking for information about pro-life groups for medical students, not your general opinions about being pro life (for or against). Thank you for understanding.

This thread is doomed from the get-go.

If your school doesn't have such a group you can always start one.
 

Perrotfish

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If your school doesn't have such a group you can always start one
Yes I know, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about it.

The initial reactions here are reinforcing my gut feeling that this should not be a political club but instead a club about counsuling patients. If anyone knows of a parent organization for this sort of thing please let me know, otherwise I guess I'll be doing it on my own.
 

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When I saw this my first thought was "How terrible! I'm barely going to make it through 4 years as a medical student, let alone life!" I figured this was going to be a joke about MD/PhD students.

End hijack.
 

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Yes I know, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about it.

The initial reactions here are reinforcing my gut feeling that this should not be a political club but instead a club about counsuling patients. If anyone knows of a parent organization for this sort of thing please let me know, otherwise I guess I'll be doing it on my own.
Go to your deans, they are the ones who let student organizations exist. Present your motives, write a proposal. If they don't like it, you know what's up and find a program for residency that is more respectful of your views.
 

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Oh, I thought you meant by "med students for life" some kind of desire to extend medical school years indefinitely (not a good idea) or some kind of prideful phrase, much like "grove street for life" such as from GTA San Andreas (which would be kickass).
 
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Law2Doc

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When I saw this my first thought was "How terrible! I'm barely going to make it through 4 years as a medical student, let alone life!" I figured this was going to be a joke about MD/PhD students.

End hijack.

Ditto. I think most of us are quite happy to abort our med school journey after 4 long years. But if you want to keep the experience alive for longer, go start a club.
 

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Ditto. I think most of us are quite happy to abort our med school journey after 4 long years. But if you want to keep the experience alive for longer, go start a club.
I like your appropriate usage of the term abort there Law2Doc. Kind of a like a pun.
 

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Heres a suggestion - YOU can personally pay a stipend (lets say ~$800/month) to every person you convince to keep their unwanted kid.
 

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When I saw this my first thought was "How terrible! I'm barely going to make it through 4 years as a medical student, let alone life!" I figured this was going to be a joke about MD/PhD students.

End hijack.

Ditto. I think most of us are quite happy to abort our med school journey after 4 long years. But if you want to keep the experience alive for longer, go start a club.

Same here. My friends who were band officers with me my senior year in high school still call ourselves "Band Geeks 4 Lyfe." Way dorky.



Anyway, Perrotfish, MCW has a chapter of MSL. I'm not sure if it's a true student national organization or just a local thing that's become widespread. It should be easy enough to start one though at your school. MSL and MSFC will often collaborate on at least 1 lunch lecture to present issues of women's health issues, etc -- at least they did my first 2 years. There were many informative discussions. I usually attended them, even though I wasn't officially a member of either, but I have my opinions. It helped they provided free lunch.
 

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We have a Medical Students for Life at our school and a Medical Students for Choice was just started up this year. I'm sure you can start one if you see fit.
 
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I always advise them of the risks and benefits of the procedure.

Risks including, of course, killing your baby.
 

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I don't see a need for any such group since it is unethical for a doctor to try to persuade a patient to have or not to have an abortion based on their own personal beliefs.

Record time on this one. 20 minutes from inquiry to insult. Well done.
 
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DwyaneWade

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Seeing as we are supporting both sides of the debate, would "Medical Students for Death" be well-received by all of you?
 

smq123

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My school has a reproductive rights society but no complementary group for pro-life students, I'd like to know what's involved with starting such a group.

The procedure for starting your own group usually depends on the school's individual policies.

I don't see a need for any such group since it is unethical for a doctor to try to persuade a patient to have or not to have an abortion based on their own personal beliefs.

:rolleyes:

If that were the case, then what's the point of MS4C? After all, isn't it is "unethical for a doctor to try to persuade a patient to have an abortion based on their own personal beliefs"?

Patients are not always the brightest bulbs in the box, but I've yet to hear of a patient who could NOT see the "advantages" in having an abortion. Most of them are actually poorly educated as to the risks of an elective D&E, however.

As far as I was taught in our ethics class, our job is to educate the patient about the abortion procedure/risks and let them make their own decision. As you mentioned, social workers are supposed to take care of the rest. As for the social workers being overworked, aren't many doctors overworked as well?

:) If there's one thing that MS3 has taught me, it's that the stuff taught in "first year ethics classes" is usually complete and utter bull****.

It's actually not necessarily your job to educate the patient about the abortion procedure and risks, unless you're the one who is going to perform the abortion.

And the thing that most "medical ethicists" fail to realize (never having actually seen a live patient EVER) is that most patients come to you with their minds made up. Especially when it comes to these issues - most patients have either talked to a friend or family member who has had an abortion, and have decided accordingly. In the ethics classes, they like to make it seem like you'll be overrun with patients who are horribly emotionally conflicted about an unexpected pregnancy, but that's not usually the case.

Basically - the abortion issue is never as cut and dried as they'd like to tell you it is in your MS1 medical ethics classes.

Heres a suggestion - YOU can personally pay a stipend (lets say ~$800/month) to every person you convince to keep their unwanted kid.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You're making the same mistake that a lot of other med students and physicians tend to make.

You're assuming that patients are blank slates....and that physicians are the ONLY ONES who have an opinion about abortion.

What you're failing to realize is that OB/gyn is the one specialty that even lay people have real experience with - psych is probably a close second. Everyone knows someone who has been pregnant or has delivered a baby...and so everyone has an opinion on these issues.

Most patients, just like most Americans, tend to have strongly defined opinions about abortion - and that (more than any doctor) influences their decision to keep the child or not. Sure, some patients may be conflicted - but you'd be surprised at just how many patients will come to see you after having made a decision on their own. There's very little melodramatic attempts at "convincing" a patient one way or the other - because, like I said, patients will decide by themselves.
 
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smq123

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When I saw this my first thought was "How terrible! I'm barely going to make it through 4 years as a medical student, let alone life!" I figured this was going to be a joke about MD/PhD students.

End hijack.

:laugh::thumbup:

Despite being an MS4 who is applying for OB, and is strongly anti-abortion, it took me a ridiculously long time to realize what the OP was referring to in the thread title. I also thought it was about being a med student for eternity. :eek:
 

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And the thing that most "medical ethicists" fail to realize (never having actually seen a live patient EVER) is that most patients come to you with their minds made up. Especially when it comes to these issues - most patients have either talked to a friend or family member who has had an abortion, and have decided accordingly. In the ethics classes, they like to make it seem like you'll be overrun with patients who are horribly emotionally conflicted about an unexpected pregnancy, but that's not usually the case.

Basically - the abortion issue is never as cut and dried as they'd like to tell you it is in your MS1 medical ethics classes.

So patients come in with their mind made up about either wanting to have the kid or have it scrambled up and thrown in the trash; sounds pretty cut and dried to me.
 

DrZeke

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I believe that's spelled P-R-O C-H-O-I-C-E.

Actually that's a common misconception that really upsets me. If you were being sarcastic, ignore this post, but for those of you who feel that people who are 'pro-choice' are pro-death that's ridiculous. Plenty of people are pro-choice, but wouldn't have an abortion themselves. Either way it's not ANTI-life. Not everything is so black and white.
 

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Actually that's a common misconception that really upsets me. If you were being sarcastic, ignore this post, but for those of you who feel that people who are 'pro-choice' are pro-death that's ridiculous. Plenty of people are pro-choice, but wouldn't have an abortion themselves. Either way it's not ANTI-life. Not everything is so black and white.

That's so true.

I myself would never have an abortion, although my anatomy makes it difficulty to begin with.

I do, however, support abortions for other people. Especially poor people.

I would also extend the gestation cutoff to somewhere around the 100th week, that way you could sample what you're getting before you commit to it.
 

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Record time on this one. 20 minutes from inquiry to insult. Well done.


Insult? I don't see how it was an insult, more like I had an inquiry myself, perhaps.

I didn't mean it to be an insult, and I don't think the OP took it as an insult as he/she answered my inquiry without resorting to calling me names or anything. Do you read what you type before you post it?

EDIT: You obviously did not read my second post either.
 
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I would also extend the gestation cutoff to somewhere around the 100th week, that way you could sample what you're getting before you commit to it.

:smuggrin:
 

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Seeing as we are supporting both sides of the debate, would "Medical Students for Death" be well-received by all of you?

Which is why I don't like the people that are anti-abortion to be called pro-life. Being quite pro-choice myself, I'm don't consider myself anti-life. They really should be anti-choice since that's the opposite view, and exactly what they are supporting.
 

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That's so true.

I myself would never have an abortion, although my anatomy makes it difficulty to begin with.

I do, however, support abortions for other people. Especially poor people.

I would also extend the gestation cutoff to somewhere around the 100th week, that way you could sample what you're getting before you commit to it.

That's just ridiculous.

You don't know if the kid's going to be a serious problem 'til about 600 weeks in. I like to call it "late late term abortion."
 

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Which is why I don't like the people that are anti-abortion to be called pro-life. Being quite pro-choice myself, I'm don't consider myself anti-life. They really should be anti-choice since that's the opposite view, and exactly what they are supporting.

Yep, that was my point.
 

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Which is why I don't like the people that are anti-abortion to be called pro-life. Being quite pro-choice myself, I'm don't consider myself anti-life. They really should be anti-choice since that's the opposite view, and exactly what they are supporting.

I prefer the more descriptive terms "Baby Flushers" (pro-choice) and "Welfare Perpetuators" (pro-life).
 

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Which is why I don't like the people that are anti-abortion to be called pro-life. Being quite pro-choice myself, I'm don't consider myself anti-life. They really should be anti-choice since that's the opposite view, and exactly what they are supporting.

Everyone names themseleves in a way that sounds most positive.

And while I am religious I am pro-choice because its a religious belief and we don't put religion into law so abortions should stay legal.

However, I can see both sides pretty well. And most prolifers would say there is a choice - to use a condom, to PROPERLY use birth control, to use half a brain when having sex. Any of the above would severely cut down on the number of abortions. So they would argue they aren't anti-choice, the choice was already made, now there are consequences to deal with.
 

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Everyone names themseleves in a way that sounds most positive.

And while I am religious I am pro-choice because its a religious belief and we don't put religion into law so abortions should stay legal.

However, I can see both sides pretty well. And most prolifers would say there is a choice - to use a condom, to PROPERLY use birth control, to use half a brain when having sex. Any of the above would severely cut down on the number of abortions. So they would argue they aren't anti-choice, the choice was already made, now there are consequences to deal with.


I totally agree with the birth control thing. I don't think abortion is a good thing, but I also can't make that decision for other people (so I don't think it should be illegal). I will tell you what bothers me is when some people who label themselves as pro choice (I don't like either label pro life or pro choice) can jump down people's throat about how will they pay for the child (esp when they are young), or they wont be able to take care of it, or there are options (meaning abortion)....but if a person were to say to a person who wants an abortion that they are ending their childs life, they should not be doing this, it is a person, etc...all hell breaks loose. I think sometimes they forget that pro choice doesn't only mean one choice, and wish they would respect the opinions of those who don't want an abortion too. I'm not saying all do this, but I have seen/heard of it a bunch of times.
 

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I don't see a need for any such group since it is unethical for a doctor to try to persuade a patient to have or not to have an abortion based on their own personal beliefs.

ok, then you also don't believe in having a student for choice group right?
 

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And benefits of avoiding the procedure. Like Welfare.

so, genius, when your mother pushed you out, how did you enjoy all those hours standing in the welfare line and gettin gov't cheese that my family paid for with our taxes.

I do, however, support abortions for other people. Especially poor people.

you would've been one of those incredibly "brilliant" people that tripped over themselves to support jon swift's modest proposal.
 

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ok, then you also don't believe in having a student for choice group right?

I thought that sentence made it abundantly clear that I don't think any abortion related groups should be affiliated with medical schools, regardless of my stance on the subject.
 

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Everyone names themseleves in a way that sounds most positive.

And while I am religious I am pro-choice because its a religious belief and we don't put religion into law so abortions should stay legal.

However, I can see both sides pretty well. And most prolifers would say there is a choice - to use a condom, to PROPERLY use birth control, to use half a brain when having sex. Any of the above would severely cut down on the number of abortions. So they would argue they aren't anti-choice, the choice was already made, now there are consequences to deal with.
Yeah, except all those pro-lifers who support abstinence only sex education and think that the pill should be outlawed.

During our abortion-ethics lecture, one of my classmates stood up and started lecturing the professor about how reliable "natural family planning" is. What a crock. Don't people realize who ******ed they look when they start spouting off about their own personal views in front of 150 people who couldn't give less of a rat's ass.


PS, Afonzarel, with the current condition of the economy I think that Swift's modest proposal is exactly the sort of outside the box thinking that the Obama admininstration needs to pursue. We need a paradigm shift in this country, and eating ground up poor people is a fantastic solution to our problems. I mean, have you seen the price of chicken gizzards in the supermarket lately?
 

smq123

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so, genius, when your mother pushed you out, how did you enjoy all those hours standing in the welfare line and gettin gov't cheese that my family paid for with our taxes.

Abortion isn't the "answer" to keeping kids off welfare.

If "reproductive rights activists" and Planned Parenthood diverted the money that they spend in running cheap abortion clinics, and put that money into making IUDs and Provera shots cheaper and more readily available....that would decrease unplanned pregnancies AND keep kids from "the welfare line."

It's ridiculous that getting an abortion is such a fiercely defended right by so many naive, idealistic young women....and yet they don't put nearly the same energy and effort into lobbying for cheap (or free!), easily available birth control.

Someone told me that, in order to get welfare in the state of Delaware, you have to produce proof that you are up to date with your Depo-Provera injections. I don't know if that's totally true, but that's a f***ing ingenious idea.

I thought that sentence made it abundantly clear that I don't think any abortion related groups should be affiliated with medical schools, regardless of my stance on the subject.

Uhhh...it wasn't. I had the same reaction as Noeljan to your post.
 

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so, genius, when your mother pushed you out, how did you enjoy all those hours standing in the welfare line and gettin gov't cheese that my family paid for with our taxes.

It was good. So sorry Mommy couldn't afford to buy you that new Barbie you just had to have.

And by the way, our welfare check generally went towards Louis Vitton purses and the car payment. "Government Cheese" is so last century.

you would've been one of those incredibly "brilliant" people that tripped over themselves to support jon swift's modest proposal.

Swift wanted to eat them, which is a lot of investment (food, cleaning, diapers) for not much payout (single meal).

Now if you wanna talk about restarting the workhouses, then I'm behind you 100%.
 
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so, genius, when your mother pushed you out, how did you enjoy all those hours standing in the welfare line and gettin gov't cheese that my family paid for with our taxes.



I can't tell if you misunderstood my post, or are just bad at insults. It might've been both.
 

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Abortion isn't the "answer" to keeping kids off welfare.

Sure it is. Once they're "de-uterinized" we feel obligated to provide free Health Care, free vaccines, three hots and a cot.

But if you get to them before everyone sees how cute they are, you don't have to feel morally obligated to have the state take care of them.

That's why so many people put kittens in a bag before they drown them. If you can't see them, you don't feel bad about knockin' them off.
 
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