Medical students to OMFS

[jordan2634]

What programs allow medical students to apply for OMFS programs? I know it’s a dental specialty but on previous posts, it looks like its been done before in the past.

Currently, I know some programs grant a MD degree during their training. With that said, is there a possibility that a program could grant a DDS/DMD during the training program.

Thanks!

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[bergus95]

What programs allow medical students to apply for OMFS programs? I know it’s a dental specialty but on previous posts, it looks like its been done before in the past.

Currently, I know some programs grant a MD degree during their training. With that said, is there a possibility that a program could grant a DDS/DMD during the training program.

Thanks!

It’s doable, but difficult. I know a plastic surgeon who completed an OMFS residency afterwards and he’s been practicing for a while now primarily OMFS procedures. The PD at Christiana Care also completes medical school (DO) and proceeded to Dental School before matriculating into OMFS.

I am not sure I know any OMFS’s that matched straight out of medical school, but it may have been done. If there is a will there is a way.

This may have been done at Alabama and Houston I believe.

 

[dentistrydmd]

Never heard of this and I can't imagine this making any sense as an MD student going into dentistry with little dental background. You would have a really tough time in private practice trying to get referrals for implants and wisdom teeth which are the basics that OMFS practitioners do on a daily basis.

 

[deleted923283]

What programs allow medical students to apply for OMFS programs? I know it’s a dental specialty but on previous posts, it looks like its been done before in the past.

Currently, I know some programs grant a MD degree during their training. With that said, is there a possibility that a program could grant a DDS/DMD during the training program.

Thanks!

The probability is very very very improbable. It has happened on very rare occasions, and I don't know the last time it's happened. The only program I've ever heard of doing this is UAB. Many programs aren't even associated with a DMD/DDS school. There are hundreds of applicants available to programs that wouldn't require the program to bend the curriculum and squeeze in the DMD training. I don't even know how the legality of it would work with a resident without a DMD license doing dentistry as an intern unless they put the DMD up front. More likely the MD grad would have to get an acceptance into a 4-year traditional dental school (which will raise eyebrows, and be very expensive), then match to a 4-year residency (very difficult feat for anyone). Honestly not worth taking all the debt and risk for such a low probability of success.

 

[Onyxxx7]

What programs allow medical students to apply for OMFS programs? I know it’s a dental specialty but on previous posts, it looks like its been done before in the past.

Currently, I know some programs grant a MD degree during their training. With that said, is there a possibility that a program could grant a DDS/DMD during the training program.

Thanks!

LSU Shreveport and UAB are the only programs I know that do that.

 

[averageasian]

HSDM has a current student who is an ENT surgeon and matched to HMS/MGH OMFS. See their Instagram page.

Then again, thats Harvard.

 

[dentistrydmd]

HSDM has a current student who is an ENT surgeon and matched to HMS/MGH OMFS. See their Instagram page.

Then again, thats Harvard.

Probably makes sense for someone who has made a name for themselves and has a clear pathway to private practice. I'd imagine this person would get a lot of referrals having the expertise of ENT and OMFS for plastics/general oral surgery, but less so implants/wisdom teeth.

 

[nonociceptors]

HSDM has a current student who is an ENT surgeon and matched to HMS/MGH OMFS. See their Instagram page.

Then again, thats Harvard.

That’s ******ed lol just imagine

 

[Sforzando]

Probably makes sense for someone who has made a name for themselves and has a clear pathway to private practice. I'd imagine this person would get a lot of referrals having the expertise of ENT and OMFS for plastics/general oral surgery, but less so implants/wisdom teeth.

I'd bet good money that the type of person who wants to complete both ENT and OMFS residencies (in that order!) is probably not headed into traditional private practice

 

[dentistrydmd]

I'd bet good money that the type of person who wants to complete both ENT and OMFS residencies (in that order!) is probably not going into private practice.

you mean academia? Maybe it is possible that they gained an appreciation for other aspects of the oral cavity, that they would not adequately be able to do without OMFS

 

[avangusva]

Never heard of this and I can't imagine this making any sense as an MD student going into dentistry with little dental background. You would have a really tough time in private practice trying to get referrals for implants and wisdom teeth which are the basics that OMFS practitioners do on a daily basis.

You went to dental school with little dental background, though. We all did.

I know UAB has had some in the past. We have a chief right now at parkland that did med school, 4 years dental, gen surg/anesthesia year, and then OMFS months on service (24 mo for 5/6 year and some months sprinkled in during time off and gen surg I believe).

You'd probably have to arrange with the program ahead of time and work out a dental school pathway as well.

 

[dentistrydmd]

You went to dental school with little dental background, though. We all did.

I know UAB has had some in the past. We have a chief right now at parkland that did med school, 4 years dental, gen surg/anesthesia year, and then OMFS months on service (24 mo for 5/6 year and some months sprinkled in during time off and gen surg I believe).

You'd probably have to arrange with the program ahead of time and work out a dental school pathway as well.

Yeah for sure. However the OP is referring to going into OMFS directly from medical school. Ie. in the situation you described the person just started from scratch with dental school, which is not the situation they were asking about.

 

[jordan2634]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. For those of you who do know someone who has done this before, were they able to get a two-year gen Surg certificate during their training still? I looked at UAB’s program but I think they only offer a 1-year certificate.

I also don’t plan on going into private practice so I am not too concerned about getting referrals.

 

[Masterus]

I wouldn’t get too picky about gen surg certificates. I think the bigger issue is finding a place that will take you which is not really feasible this day and age unfortunately. At the end of the day your only option may be to do dental school 4 years and then do OMFS 4 year.

That ENT guy graduated from Stanford and had an interest in sleep surgery. There’s an OMFS in the ENT department at Stanford that does sleep surgery. He got linked up with Harvard and created his own path. This guys credentials/stats I’m sure are extremely competitive. (Unique situation)

 

[PerioDont]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. For those of you who do know someone who has done this before, were they able to get a two-year gen Surg certificate during their training still? I looked at UAB’s program but I think they only offer a 1-year certificate.

I also don’t plan on going into private practice so I am not too concerned about getting referrals.

your profile says you are pre-med, why not just go to dental school? This seems like a very long and difficult path if you know you want to do OMFS

 

[Sublimazing]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. For those of you who do know someone who has done this before, were they able to get a two-year gen Surg certificate during their training still? I looked at UAB’s program but I think they only offer a 1-year certificate.

I also don’t plan on going into private practice so I am not too concerned about getting referrals.

If you plan on staying in the hospital, what OMFS procedures interest you that you couldn’t do if you went ENT or Plastics?

 

[coogs4life]

I've never heard about this BUT have heard the opposite where an OMFS resident quits OMFS residency after M4 and applies for a different specialty. I personally have never once heard of an OMFS residency that's taken anyone from medical school as it requires successful completion of dental school first. Then again, in the world we live in with educational institutions trying to make whatever they can I wouldn't be too surprised if there is some remote possibility at Harvard.

 

[yappy]

If you plan on staying in the hospital, what OMFS procedures interest you that you couldn’t do if you went ENT or Plastics?

Agreed. Why not just do a surgical field in medicine.

 

[Sublimazing]

Agreed. Why not just do a surgical field in medicine.

yeah. my program gets a lot of interest in the reverse route because the program is very OR heavy...they covered ALL the free flaps for h/n cancer, orthopedic recon, and trauma...we were a popular MS4 elective...,and the dept chair for OMFS is also the chancellor of the entire hospital system. So a good amount of med students showed interest in joining us.

But i remember my PD at the time pointed out that there’s really only 2 reasons for someone to want to do the reverse route...one, they don’t have the numbers to match ENT/PRS...or two, they know how lucrative T+T is...and neither of these are really the motivation a PD would be thrilled about.

 

[slowthai]

But i remember my PD at the time pointed out that there’s really only 2 reasons for someone to want to do the reverse route...one, they don’t have the numbers to match ENT/PRS...or two, they know how lucrative T+T is...and neither of these are really the motivation a PD would be thrilled about.

Loooool those are the only reasons in existence case for like 99% of people

 

[OMSDoc]

First of all, Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery is a dental specialty. It is impossible to be an OMS without a dental degree.

Anyone can, without the progression of a dental degree >> OMS training perform a Le Fort osteotomy. Honestly, it is not that hard. I could teach my 13-year-old son to perform an osteotomy through the maxillary sinus wall.

The key in orthognathic surgery is what is going on with the occlusion. The actual surgery is not the most difficult part. The difficult part is the preoperative and postoperative management.

Moreover, the best orthognathic surgeons that I have ever seen were first great dentoalveolar surgeons. They certainly have the best hands.

One of my mentors when I was in college was a cardiac surgeon. He is one of the most genuine and nicest people that you would ever meet.

He trained at Vanderbilt, where he was required to do a one month rotation in OMS. He told me once that removing impacted third molars was technically more difficult than performing a coronary artery bypass graft procedure.

He said that the risks certainly were different, but technically, the third molar odontectomy was more difficult to perform.

I do know an excellent OMS who first received a medical degree. His father was an OMS. He wanted to be an OMS, so he went back to dental school and eventually went through OMS training.

 

[dentistrydmd]

First of all, Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery is a dental specialty. It is impossible to be an OMS without a dental degree.

Anyone can, without the progression of a dental degree >> OMS training perform a Le Fort osteotomy. Honestly, it is not that hard. I could teach my 13-year-old son to perform an osteotomy through the maxillary sinus wall.

The key in orthognathic surgery is what is going on with the occlusion. The actual surgery is not the most difficult part. The difficult part is the preoperative and postoperative management.

Moreover, the best orthognathic surgeons that I have ever seen were first great dentoalveolar surgeons. They certainly have the best hands.

One of my mentors when I was in college was a cardiac surgeon. He is one of the most genuine and nicest people that you would ever meet.

He trained at Vanderbilt, where he was required to do a one month rotation in OMS. He told me once that removing impacted third molars was technically more difficult than performing a coronary artery bypass graft procedure.

He said that the risks certainly were different, but technically, the third molar odontectomy was more difficult to perform.

I do know an excellent OMS who first received a medical degree. His father was an OMS. He wanted to be an OMS, so he went back to dental school and eventually went through OMS training.

Regarding your statement on orthognathic... not sure if you’ve used digital planning before but doesn’t this make the issue of occlusion a moot point with the orthodontics and digital splints involved?

 

[Sublimazing]

Regarding your statement on orthognathic... not sure if you’ve used digital planning before but doesn’t this make the issue of occlusion a moot point with the orthodontics and digital splints involved?

i’ll chime in...no it doesn’t. before you can send it off to KLS or Stryker for VSP a big part of the treatment planning falls down to seeing the models and how they articulate to know if the patient is ready...and if they are ready you still need to know whether it’s a 1 piece, 2 piece, 3 piece...whether you’ll do anterior occlusion and leave the posteriors open vs articulate the posteriors and close the front with ortho...which teeth need occlusal adjustment...and so on and so on.

VSP is a tool to simplify orthognathic surgery for surgeons who already understand the principles of occlusion.

 

[2TH MVR]

Since we're on orthognathic surgery.
A few thoughts:
1. orthognathic surgery is becoming less and less common at least in my area (Phoenix). Proper early Phase 1 orthopedic tx can correct alot of these skeletal cases from needing future orthognathic surgery. Also .... every OMFS I talk to prefer not to tx orthognathic cases due to lack of reimbursement and the hassle of treating these cases.
2. Proper treatment of these cases requires good teamwork between the orthodontist and the OMFS. This rarely happens since a patient often has to use whomever provider is on their insurance plan. In my experience ... I found only ONE OMFS in all of Phx that I felt confident in his abilities. There seems to be this thought that the orthodontist can fix anything post-surgery, post-healing that was not corrected 100% by the OMFS. This is not what I want or the patient. The surgery should be close to perfect. As an ortho .... I expect to correct small spaces where the cuts were made, small details ..... but not deal with a maxilla that is too narrow because the OMFS decided to do a 1 piece maxilla instead of a multi-piece.
3. Again. Good teamwork. The ortho needs to meet with the OMFS. Come up with a plan to fix the face and occlusion. Ortho needs to "decompensate" the teeth. Take plenty of study models for hand articulation (or digital nowadays) and meet with the OMFS to make sure everything is correct. My goal is to have the pre-surgery occlusion spot on .... so that everything fits well during surgery. If the ortho does a lousy job, or orthognathics is done without proper orthodontic pre-surgery tx ..... yeah .... there's going to be some crappy finishes.

 

[dentmass]

I've heard that UAB only takes the top medical students since they do get a lot of interest from medical students so you need a good step 1 score as well as good grades (basically you're compared to your peers like how dental school applicants are compared to their peers and OMFS programs only want the top). There's one that started this year and apparently another med student that may be entering in the future.

Also, the pathway is 7 years long. You do 3 years of dental school and 4 of residency.

 

[dentistrydmd]

I've heard that UAB only takes the top medical students since they do get a lot of interest from medical students so you need a good step 1 score as well as good grades (basically you're compared to your peers like how dental school applicants are compared to their peers and OMFS programs only want the top). There's one that started this year and apparently another med student that may be entering in the future.

Also, the pathway is 7 years long. You do 3 years of dental school and 4 of residency.

This all of a sudden makes sense now. So the students ultimately do get dental school training...

 

[OMSDoc]

Regarding your statement on orthognathic... not sure if you’ve used digital planning before but doesn’t this make the issue of occlusion a moot point with the orthodontics and digital splints involved?

Nothing is ever a moot point when it comes to surgery. And with orthognathic surgery, the occlusion is what it's all about. It is the only reason we are there for the surgery. I was being glib saying the surgery is easiest part. I guess a better thing to say is that the most important thing is the thing you are doing right then.

With respect to orthognathic surgery, it is one of the areas of OMS at which I am best. I first scrubbed on these cases with my father in 1982. This was before the advent of rigid fixation. I probably got to see 50 orthognathic osteotomies before I even got to dental school. So I have been fortunate to have mentors who worked well in dentistry, and especially orthodontists.

After dental school, I had an internship year where one surgeon performed mostly orthognathic and TMJ surgery. Then, I had my full residency training at Mayo in Rochester, MN, where we were doing 300+ osteotomies a year in the late 1980s-early1990s. We worked very closely with the orthodontists, both pre and post-surgery.

Now, I see the orthognathic patients multiple times preop and postop. I do not worry about the reimbursement (at least not too much). It is poor across the board. The orthodontists appreciate the care we give to their patients. It is not a one-and-done situation for me at all.

Most of my career I have done stone model surgery, and I still do it for a single-jaw case. I do hyper-accurate measuring of these models and take those to the OR to replicate the measurements on the patient. I check the occlusion after placement of fixation, and if it isn't right, I take out the fixation and do it again.

I also do the computer planning, and it is very nice with double jaws cases, and especially with a maxillary asymmetry case. However, I still set the occlusion myself on models. On a segmental case, it helps me to see where the intra-operative cuts will be. I'll also get the orthodontist to check the final occlusion before splint fabrication to make sure that it is what they want.

This is what I do, it's my profession, and I am not going to assign that responsibility to a technician at the plating company, good as they may be. Otherwise, it's just a trade, not a profession.