medical vs dental basic science years

[dental44]

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This one's just for curiosity. How do the basic science years (mostly year 1 and 2) compare between that of dental and medical school? Many of the classes appear to be the same-histology, gross, biochem, ect. Is the level of depth and clinical correlation similar to med? I hope some dental students can respond, and not just a bunch bunch of speculative predents. Another take- how would a dental student following year 2 perform on a USMLE step 1 exam relative to a med student (I hope significantly worse)? Its not like I'm envious or anything, just curious.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

There was a guy from med school that was in our class. For some reason he left after his 3rd year in medical school (he was from university of miami) to go to dental school.

He said that dental school was easier but he was not doing too good here at NYU dental. Long story short, he is no longer in my class.

But in general, I think they are about the same. I mean there are schools in which the dental students spend the first 2 years with the medical students.

 

[JesseBrad3]

I think Columbia is one of those schools where the dent and med students take a number of classes together the first two years, and I'm sure there are others.

 

[UBTom]

Mine does as well-- Lots of the basic sciences (especially the big ones like Gross) we take with the med students sitting in the same lecture and the same labs (Gross, Histo, Path, etc.).

Considering that most 6-year OMFS-MD programs have you take the USMLE Step I after some review, I'd say one is reasonably prepared for it in the first two years of dental school.

 

[gryffindor]

My first two years as a dental student at Buffalo, I lived with a med student in the same classes as me.

We took the same lectures & exams in the following:
Gross (1st year)
Histo (1st year)
Micro (2nd year)
Path (2nd year)

We had separate courses in:
Neuro (1st year)
Physio (1st year)
Biochem (1st year)
Pharm (3rd year for dental, 2nd year for med)
Biostats (practically nonexistent for dental, 1st year for med)
Psych/Mental Health (2nd year)

(These are all the subjects covered on the USMLE, but not necessarily on the Part I NBDE.)

I studied for my NBDE part I at the same time she was studying for her USMLE step I. From browsing through the stacks of review books and Kaplan material she had, I would say that the NBDE seemed to be much more straightforward than the USMLE. At our school, dental students wouldn't be prepared to take the USMLE right after second year b/c we don't do pharm till third year. The dental Biochem, although challenging, was not to the level and depth as the medical Biochem.

However, after finishing Pharm, with some review and practice with the USMLE style of questions, we'd probably be reasonably prepared for the exam b/c as UBTom said, our 6-year OMS students take this exam and pass it (for the most part - there was 1 failure recently) each year.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Some schools mix their med and dent students together for a couple classes, and others mix them together for nearly all classes.

Our classes at Arizona, I think, are fairly similar to many of the medical school courses across the country. Our instructors were flown in from schools all over the country, and it was obvious that the bulk of them gave the *exact* same lectures to us that they normally give to the students at their regular universities (ie, many of them didn't even take the time to remove their original school names from their powerpoints). Of course, we didn't have the same courses that all med. students do (we didn't have a histology specific course).

Out of the 23 courses we had first semester, 21 of the professors came from medical schools (over half of those were MDs, the others were PhDs), and the other 2 were dentists.

This entire scenario is unique to my school, but it's fun talking to SDN med students and comparing notes against teachers from across the country.

[Edit] I should note that our second semester is much different than the first. We are essentially done with our science courses now, and focusing on dentistry only. Our pathology course is being taught by Dr. Eversole from UOP dental school, and our dental operatory course is being taught by Dr. Cleghorn from Dalhousie dental school.

 

[dental44]

Thanks for the replys-just a matter of curiosity. While I don't doubt that meds are probably subject to a greater level of depth, both meds and dents will have to bust their ass to ingest the material. It is as it should be. Meds with a bit more depth (although they will forget most of that depth anyway), dents with a lot more operative. Really, a very pointless conversation.

 

[Rampart]

The dental school I'm attending here in Canada pools all the preclinical dent and med classes. The dental students also have additional dental courses on top of the Med classes and do a summer session to get the rest of the dental specific material. It's kind of like having a information grenade launcher pointed in your ear all the time. We've finished Immunology, Infection, Inflammation, Endocrinology and are currently doing Cardiology with the meds, and have done dental anatomy and are working on oral histology right now. After Pulmonary and Renal we have summer session (operative 1, occlusion 1, rads 1, dental materials 1, and something else I can't remember right now)

The amount of non-applicable to dentistry information really takes a toll on the motivation, but the dental students are graded with, and compete for honours with the medical students. I really doubt that the ability to identify 25 or so arrythmia's on ecg rhythm strips will ever come in handy.

Whenever I hear about the "new paradigm" where dentists are "more than just mouth doctors" I find that ducking and covering under my desk is the best tactic. I wish I was at a school with a lighter curriculum, this is just ridiculous.

we have a med student in our class right now, he was a psych resident but decided the medical life wasn't for him.

Rampart

 

[busupshot83]

this is interesting...

why is it that medical school make their students take residency, but dental schools don't?

 

[UBTom]

That's going to change.

I hear that here in New York, after next year at least one year of residency will be mandatory after dental school.

Glad I missed THAT boat! 😀

 

[busupshot83]

I think that's why some pre-meds think medical school is "harder" than dental school: the residency.

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by busupshot83
this is interesting...

why is it that medical school make their students take residency, but dental schools don't?

Because we spend our last two years of school doing the work. They spend theirs in ward rotations, mostly watching & answering questions; they don't really do much of consequence until residency.

 

[busupshot83]

Originally posted by aphistis
Because we spend our last two years of school doing the work. They spend theirs in ward rotations, mostly watching & answering questions; they don't really do much of consequence until residency.

thanks aphi

 

[ItsGavinC]

Originally posted by aphistis
Because we spend our last two years of school doing the work. They spend theirs in ward rotations, mostly watching & answering questions; they don't really do much of consequence until residency.

And that's one of the coolest things about dental school: a real patient load, sometimes as early as your second year.

 

[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

Originally posted by busupshot83
this is interesting...

why is it that medical school make their students take residency, but dental schools don't?

Several reasons really.

1. Dental students cram nearly twice as much as material into the first two years as med students. Yes, it's true.

2. Dental students don't get summers off; med students do. That's equivalent to at least another year and a half of school.

3. We still do a residency of sorts by associating through various offices. It's not nearly as formal or intense as the medical resdencies or a GPR, but it's on the job training which is all a residency is anyway.

4. The real big push for the mandatory residency is coming from schools and program directors with dollar signs in their eyes. Additional funding from the state plus 60 cute, little profit centers running around filling the clinic chairs for the bargain price of $20,000 a yr.

Oh, and what Bill said.

 

[aphistis]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with most of this.

Originally posted by Dr.SpongeBobDDS
Several reasons really.

1. Dental students cram nearly twice as much as material into the first two years as med students. Yes, it's true.

This is a pretty presumptuous assertion. My opinion is that they cover roughly the same volume of material, but it's differently focused due to the natures of the curricula. Any curriculum that would cover twice as much material as medicine, as you assert, would leave me quivering in stark terror.

2. Dental students don't get summers off; med students do. That's equivalent to at least another year and a half of school.

The math here doesn't even work out. Even if all dental schools were in session 12 months a year (doesn't happen) and every medical school received a full three months off every year (doesn't happen), that's still only a single year. And, dental students DO get time off during their pre-clinical years while medical students frequently DON'T get time off in summers. And then there's the matter of actual hours spent...I know *I* certainly have no intention of working outside normal business hours during clinical years, while med students frequently do this on wards.

3. We still do a residency of sorts by associating through various offices. It's not nearly as formal or intense as the medical resdencies or a GPR, but it's on the job training which is all a residency is anyway.

Not all new dentists associate, and even if we all did, that's still not nearly the same as a formalized required period of training.

4. The real big push for the mandatory residency is coming from schools and program directors with dollar signs in their eyes. Additional funding from the state plus 60 cute, little profit centers running around filling the clinic chairs for the bargain price of $20,000 a yr.

No dispute here.

Our training and profession certainly aren't inferior to physicians', but they *are* very different, and they most certainly do not *exceed* them. None of us can stand med students or physicians who strut about lording their self-annointed superiority over everyone else; be careful not to become the thing you hate.

 

[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

Dude, Bill, sometimes you really make me scratch my head. I will admit that I exaggerated some to make a point, but what I said is still correct. You talk about medical and dental school - well you talk about everything for that matter - as though you are the ultimate authority on the subject. And then you always leave off with some sage moral advice - this time about not becoming the thing you hate. For one thing I couldn't care less about med students strutting around; that prestige is what they were after and they have earned it. If it makes them feel good about themselves, more power to 'em. Doesn't bother me one bit.

You just have an annoying tendency to talk down to people. Reading your post I felt like I was 10 yrs old being lectured by my frickin' rabbi for eating a hot dog. You do this all the time on here and I 've even seen you do it on dental town. The all knowing master sharing his wisdom with seekers of knowledge - oh, yeah he's a C student who hasn't even gotten through the first year yet. In all honesty I enjoy your posts and your willingness to share your experiences, and what's more I think your probably a real nice guy, but dude... don't be so frickin' condescending all the time.

Now that I've shared that when I probably should have shut up... lol

The point of my last post was not trying to say that dental students are smarter or better; just making the point that our education is rigorous enough to not need a residency.

1. What do you know about medical school exactly? I happen to room with a couple of first year med students. They are always asking me to go play ball or go to this movie or that but I am ALWAYS in class. There aren't but one or two "introduction to the profession" courses they have taken so far that I haven't taken in dental school. As far as I can tell the classes are pretty roughly equivalent, except for their histology which was a joke compared to the dental version. 'We actually study for things like midterms and finals together since the material covered is so similar. On top of that I have all my dental courses: dental anatomy, occlusion, operative, etc... They are scheduled for 15 hrs/week plus lab. We are scheduled for 32 plus lab. Sounds a lot like double to me.

2. Maybe this is just at my school but we only get two weeks between semesters every year. The med students here get at least two and a half months. Even if they don't get a break in their last two years (I think they will) just these two semesters are equal to an additional year of school.

3. How many people scratch start right out of school every year? 10? 15? The number is so ridiculously low that for all intents and purposes everybody associates or is in a position where they have a senior doc there to give advice and bail them out when needed. Even the few who decide to scratch start are not gonna be doing much but amalgam and composite anyway. If they wanna move beyond basic restorative they are going to have to do a buttload of CE. Pretty much just a custom tailored residency, wouldn't you agree? A lot slower and less intense than a full-fledged residency, but it accomplishes the same purpose.

4. Glad to see we agree on this. 😀


P.S. Hope I didn't offend you; sometimes I'm a little more blunt than polite society expects. Oh well. 🙂

 

[aphistis]

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Dr.SpongeBobDDS
Dude, Bill, sometimes you really make me scratch my head. I will admit that I exaggerated some to make a point, but what I said is still correct. You talk about medical and dental school - well you talk about everything for that matter - as though you are the ultimate authority on the subject. And then you always leave off with some sage moral advice - this time about not becoming the thing you hate. For one thing I couldn't care less about med students strutting around; that prestige is what they were after and they have earned it. If it makes them feel good about themselves, more power to 'em. Doesn't bother me one bit.

I don't think I've ever claimed to be an authority on anything, and I routinely advise people to take what I say with a grain of salt. If you think I have a habit of presenting overstated credentials...well, you're perfectly entitled to that opinion.

You just have an annoying tendency to talk down to people. Reading your post I felt like I was 10 yrs old being lectured by my frickin' rabbi for eating a hot dog. You do this all the time on here and I 've even seen you do it on dental town. The all knowing master sharing his wisdom with seekers of knowledge - oh, yeah he's a C student who hasn't even gotten through the first year yet. In all honesty I enjoy your posts and your willingness to share your experiences, and what's more I think your probably a real nice guy, but dude... don't be so frickin' condescending all the time.

1) I have something like 20 posts at DT, and most of those are in the dental haiku forum.

2) "a C student"? I've only mentioned my GPA in passing, but you're off by a full point, for what relevance my grades carry here.

3) I'm sorry (seriously, I am) that you found my candid response so offensive, but I disagreed with you for reasons that I felt are pretty substantive, and made sure to mention for the sake of fairness and letting you rebut. That's certainly within the bounds of fair play.

1. What do you know about medical school exactly? I happen to room with a couple of first year med students. They are always asking me to go play ball or go to this movie or that but I am ALWAYS in class. There aren't but one or two "introduction to the profession" courses they have taken so far that I haven't taken in dental school. As far as I can tell the classes are pretty roughly equivalent, except for their histology which was a joke compared to the dental version. 'We actually study for things like midterms and finals together since the material covered is so similar. On top of that I have all my dental courses: dental anatomy, occlusion, operative, etc... They are scheduled for 15 hrs/week plus lab. We are scheduled for 32 plus lab. Sounds a lot like double to me.

This sounds like a matter of divergent opinions, or at *least* a question of different experience. We're at different schools, and any number of variables are in play. You'll notice I said "My opinion," when introducing my thoughts.

2. Maybe this is just at my school but we only get two weeks between semesters every year. The med students here get at least two and a half months. Even if they don't get a break in their last two years (I think they will) just these two semesters are equal to an additional year of school.

Fair enough. Like before, we're at different schools.

3. How many people scratch start right out of school every year? 10? 15? The number is so ridiculously low that for all intents and purposes everybody associates or is in a position where they have a senior doc there to give advice and bail them out when needed. Even the few who decide to scratch start are not gonna be doing much but amalgam and composite anyway. If they wanna move beyond basic restorative they are going to have to do a buttload of CE. Pretty much just a custom tailored residency, wouldn't you agree? A lot slower and less intense than a full-fledged residency, but it accomplishes the same purpose.

Right, but you're mistakenly comparing the goals of associateship with the purpose of residency. Associating is a good way to get better and faster at procedures we'll have already learned in school; most residents have very little appreciable training in their specialty when they enter residency. The critical difference here is that a newly-graduated dentist can safely and competently (not to mention legally) treat patients, while a newly-graduated physician cannot.

4. Glad to see we agree on this. 😀

Hooah. 😀

P.S. Hope I didn't offend you; sometimes I'm a little more blunt than polite society expects. Oh well. 🙂 [/B]

If I can't respond to a civil-but-candid response to my posts, I'd have no business doing the same. Thanks for actually pushing back. 😉

 

[Brachial_Plexus]

Originally posted by dental44
Another take- how would a dental student following year 2 perform on a USMLE step 1 exam relative to a med student (I hope significantly worse)?

Oh yes, my friend..........they would perform much, much worse.

 

[Brachial_Plexus]

Originally posted by aphistis
Because we spend our last two years of school doing the work. They spend theirs in ward rotations, mostly watching & answering questions; they don't really do much of consequence until residency.

Spoken like a true dental student with no idea of what's going on.....

The "mostly watching and answering questions" that you idiotically misattribute to the 3rd and 4th clinical years of training is an integral part of a future physcian's education. YOU spend your last two years of school doing the "work" (heavy quotational emphasis) because that's all future dentists need; two years of didactics followed by two years of "work". I guess all the codes, intubations, and other various and sundry duties I performed during these "inconsequential" years were a waste of time.

Whatever............🙄

Here's a quarter, dude..........go buy a clue!

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by Brachial_Plexus
I guess all the codes, intubations, and other various and sundry duties I performed during these "inconsequential" years were a waste of time.

You must mean catching infants, holding retractors, making lunch runs, and all those other, similarly indispensable tasks.

 

[Brachial_Plexus]

Originally posted by aphistis
You must mean catching infants, holding retractors, making lunch runs, and all those other, similarly indispensable tasks.

<See previous post>

As a matter of fact, I do! Let's see......what sort of indispensable tasks do you perform? Oh that's right, I know: mixing amalgams, practicing on models, etc. REAL important stuff like that, eh? Thank God you guys are here!!!!

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by Brachial_Plexus
<See previous post>

As a matter of fact, I do! Let's see......what sort of indispensable tasks do you perform? Oh that's right, I know: mixing amalgams, practicing on models, etc. REAL important stuff like that, eh? Thank God you guys are here!!!!

I figured this was coming. I'm not the one who claims to have spent his school years single-handedly saving lives. Perhaps when you're older and have your diploma, and decide to go to college and maybe even med school, you'll learn how to be a little less transparent in your trolling. 😉 I think that's it from me on this thread.

 

[busupshot83]

Originally posted by Brachial_Plexus
<See previous post>
REAL important stuff like that, eh? Thank God you guys are here!!!!

So you're saying that dental procedures are NOT important? I'm sure many physicians would disagree with you here big boi.

You better thank God that dentists are here... I wouldn't want to imagine what your teeth look like with this attitude.

g' night

bus.

 

[Brachial_Plexus]

Originally posted by aphistis
I figured this was coming. I'm not the one who claims to have spent his school years single-handedly saving lives. Perhaps when you're older and have your diploma, and decide to go to college and maybe even med school, you'll learn how to be a little less transparent in your trolling. 😉

Right........🙄 As a student, I have not saved lives, just assisted in doing so. As an attending, however, I do this quite frequently. Its not my fault that you have never, nor will you ever, be involved in such a noble act. Please continue in your vain attempts to disparage me, Bill. But just remember this, kid:

Everyday when I get up and look in the mirror, I see a physician.

Everyday when YOU get up and look in the mirror you see a future-dentist-physician-wannabe.............

Bill, it's not my fault you failed in achieving your goals, son........please stop attacking me as a result of your failure!

G'night! 😍

 

[Brachial_Plexus]

Originally posted by busupshot83
So you're saying that dental procedures are NOT important? I'm sure many physicians would disagree with you here big boi.

You better thank God that dentists are here... I wouldn't want to imagine what your teeth look like with this attitude.

g' night

bus.

Not at all.......dental procedures are indeed important. I do thank God dentists are here. My teeth are in excellent condition, thank you!

I was merely replying to that psedo-intellect Aphistis......chill, bro.

Peace

 

[Tenesma]

aphistis... both brachial and I are done with residency... so for a 1st year dental student to say something so asinine about the 3rd and 4th years of medical school, that is an absolute joke...

"The critical difference here is that a newly-graduated dentist can safely and competently (not to mention legally) treat patients, while a newly-graduated physician cannot".... that statement is patently false as well!!! Day ONE after medical school you start treating patients - while it is still in a learning environment, it is our name that goes on the chart next to the orders we write... It is our butt on the line when a patient is crashing at 3am and there is nobody around.... my friend, i think there is a huge difference between managing dentition/occlusion and managing patients who can actually die on you...

 

[Brachial_Plexus]

Thanks Tenesma!

 

[busupshot83]

Originally posted by Brachial_Plexus
Its not my fault that you have never, nor will you ever, be involved in such a noble act. Please continue in your vain attempts to disparage me, Bill. But just remember this, kid:

Everyday when I get up and look in the mirror, I see a physician.

Everyday when YOU get up and look in the mirror you see a future-dentist-physician-wannabe.............

Bill, it's not my fault you failed in achieving your goals, son........

Noble act? Hold up boi, but not ALL physicians save lives. I can't remember the last time a heard about a Dermatologist saving a human life.

And I know that your "future-dentist-physician wannabe" comment was directed towards Aphi, but not all dental students are medical school rejects. You, nor I, knows Aphi personally, so how could you say that?

 

[busupshot83]

Originally posted by Brachial_Plexus
Not at all.......dental procedures are indeed important. I do thank God dentists are here. My teeth are in excellent condition, thank you!

I was merely replying to that psedo-intellect Aphistis......chill, bro.

Peace

I am chillin' son, but like you, I'm just responding to a comment I disagree with. No hard feelings boi.

Pce,

bus.

 

[Brachial_Plexus]

Originally posted by busupshot83
Noble act? Hold up boi, but not ALL physicians save lives. I can't remember the last time a heard about a Dermatologist saving a human life.

Yeah.......how about when he diagnoses and subsequently removes a malignant melonoma? This is one of the most malignant forms of cancer around, dog!!

Now you have heard about a dermatologist saving a human life 😀 😀 😀

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by Tenesma
aphistis... both brachial and I are done with residency... so for a 1st year dental student to say something so asinine about the 3rd and 4th years of medical school, that is an absolute joke...

"The critical difference here is that a newly-graduated dentist can safely and competently (not to mention legally) treat patients, while a newly-graduated physician cannot".... that statement is patently false as well!!! Day ONE after medical school you start treating patients - while it is still in a learning environment, it is our name that goes on the chart next to the orders we write... It is our butt on the line when a patient is crashing at 3am and there is nobody around.... my friend, i think there is a huge difference between managing dentition/occlusion and managing patients who can actually die on you...

Is there anything to actually verify that? You'll have to pardon my skepticism considering his/her/its post history--walks like a troll, quacks like a troll, etc.

As for the rest, you have a legitimate point, but I think it's miscommunication. You mentioned both having the responsibility, and being in the learning environment; so how about if I added "without supervision" to clarify? Maybe you're right, and a freshly-minted MD is ready from day one to go to work unsupervised in the OR, ED, or other clinic environment, but that's very far removed from the impression I've received from those I speak to. Likewise, everything I hear indicates that wards are much more about learning than doing. Could I be flatly wrong? Sure, but talking about stuff like that is presumably what these boards are supposed to be about in the first place. I'm all for discussing this civilly, but portraying the other party in stereotypes is an invitation for an identical response.

 

[busupshot83]

Originally posted by aphistis
I'm all for discussing this civilly, but portraying the other party in stereotypes is an invitation for an identical response.

bigups aphi, too many of these threads turn into a usless medicine vs. dentistry war. we don't need another one of those.

 

[Brachial_Plexus]

Originally posted by aphistis
Maybe you're right, and a freshly-minted MD is ready from day one to go to work unsupervised in the OR, ED, or other clinic environment, but that's very far removed from the impression I've received from those I speak to.

He is right........you need to speak with more people. The whole point of residency is that you will be "ready from day one to go to work unsupervised in the OR, ED, or other clinic environment". That's the whole point of doing a MINIMUM of a 3 year residency after 4 years in medical school.

Hope this helps!! 😍 😍 😍

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by Brachial_Plexus
He is right........you need to speak with more people. The whole point of residency is that you will be "ready from day one to go to work unsupervised in the OR, ED, or other clinic environment". That's the whole point of doing a MINIMUM of a 3 year residency after 4 years in medical school.

Hope this helps!! 😍 😍 😍

I mean day one *of* residency, not after. Obviously you're ready to go after finishing residency.

 

[busupshot83]

Originally posted by Brachial_Plexus
He is right........you need to speak with more people. The whole point of residency is that you will be "ready from day one to go to work unsupervised in the OR, ED, or other clinic environment". That's the whole point of doing a MINIMUM of a 3 year residency after 4 years in medical school.

Hope this helps!! 😍 😍 😍

coo, nice info

 

[Brachial_Plexus]

Word

 

[Tenesma]

things that i did as a medical student:
1) 2 percutaneous tracheotomies
2) over 20 central lines
3) 3 chest tubes
4) over 10 lumbar punctures
5) intubated over 20 people
6) performed an open gastrostomy from skin to skin
7) and the list goes on an on... and that was just for my 3rd year of med school...

so you can see that there is a lot of learning/watching/asking questions, but also a lot of doing...

 

[Supernumerary]

do these ever end?!!!! We should have a special section dedicated just to pre-dents who want to justify their career choices and pre-meds who want to gloat about all the lives they are going to save. It would save me from wasting my time reading these trainwrecks.

BTW, aphi I thikn you are right on about BP. I have never seen him do anything but troll on these boards. BP=Dr. Pretentious ?

Well, back to my watered down "dental" physiology studies. 🙂