Medicare to Start Covering Acupuncture

[drusso]

Medicare moving toward covering acupuncture for back pain

WASHINGTON (AP) — Medicare says it's moving toward potentially covering acupuncture for chronic low back pain as an alternative to opioid painkillers that can become addictive.

www.apnews.com

"Acupuncture has gained acceptance in the U.S., but insurance coverage remains limited and patients generally pay for it themselves. Many clinicians in Western nations remain skeptical of acupuncture, but the National Institutes of Health says research shows some pain-management benefits."

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[lobelsteve]

Society for Science Based Medicine: Acupuncture is nonscience.
We should not as a country offer medical coverage for toothfairy treatments.
Pay out of pocket for pixie dust and rainbows.

 

[drusso]

Society for Science Based Medicine: Acupuncture is nonscience.
We should not as a country offer medical coverage for toothfairy treatments.
Pay out of pocket for pixie dust and rainbows.

I'm worried PRP and BMAC are next. Where are our specialty societies??

 

[pjuer]

As much evidence as COT, and a lot safer

 

[lobelsteve]

As much evidence as COT, and a lot safer

Idiotic statement. Acupuncture cannot be studied empirically because it is not based in the sciences. As real as unicorns and the tooth fairy making people better. As a physician, arguing that reality is not necessarily a part of care is dereliction of duty to the known universe. Science.

 

[drusso]

Idiotic statement. Acupuncture cannot be studied empirically because it is not based in the sciences. As real as unicorns and the tooth fairy making people better. As a physician, arguing that reality is not necessarily a part of care is dereliction of duty to the known universe. Science.

This is germane to this discussion:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms1813043#.XSywl2CscOY.twitter

"There is a real danger that alternative pillars of trust and authority are emerging that are not based in science and will threaten physicians’ ability to earn the trust of their patients. Trust in individual physicians creates a foundation for trust in the medical profession, but as physicians become increasingly embedded in larger organizations, public perceptions of those organizations’ authority may change — possibly in ways that create new challenges for individual doctors trying to serve their patients."

Doctors paid to push mu-shoo medicine because it saves a "the system" an all-mighty dollar...

 

[lobelsteve]

http://edgydoc.com/quackcast-list-mps/

Go through the references and listen to the relevant science.

 

[deleted993114]

Medicare moving toward covering acupuncture for back pain

WASHINGTON (AP) — Medicare says it's moving toward potentially covering acupuncture for chronic low back pain as an alternative to opioid painkillers that can become addictive.

www.apnews.com

"Acupuncture has gained acceptance in the U.S., but insurance coverage remains limited and patients generally pay for it themselves. Many clinicians in Western nations remain skeptical of acupuncture, but the National Institutes of Health says research shows some pain-management benefits."

That is fine. It will keep the oldsters occupied, instead of perching at McDonalds or local cafes. Usually acupuncturists, like chiropractors, keep doing acupuncture on patients who do not respond. Thus it keeps people occupied and out of everyone's hair. I had a one day a week clinic at the VA about ten years ago and don't think I ever ran across a single patient who improved with it, yet the acupuncturist insisted on the vets doing the "treatment" a couple times a week. The acupuncture gal was working on contract and was pulling over $500K from the VA, so it was a good racket for her. She would scoff at "quackery" like stims and surgery, which was very entertaining. I recall her doing acupuncture on a guy with cervical stenosis, even after the guy was losing bowel and bladder function. I was surprised that her acupuncture did not cure his myelopathy, as it worked so well for everything else. It is a situation of "if all you have is hammer, everything looks like a nail".

Obviously the two largest studies (one in the US and the other in Europe) showed that acupuncture is superior to PT alone, but equivalent to sham acupuncture and PT. That sham is a nurse randomly poking the patient with toothpicks. SPINE every year usually runs the "efficacy vs effectiveness" article in which they debate whether acupuncture should be offered when we know it is equivalent to sham, but have sham responders. The general concensus is go ahead and do it if it does not cause financial trouble. Oldsters similarly will consume vitamins and herbals as well, so they waste their money on other sources of quackery.

Acupuncture is just one of the many quack treatments offered today. Oddly, when compared to massage and manipulation, massage works better and has a longer duration of effect.

Looks like it will keep the oldsters out of everyone's hair for a period of time and give them something to do. I would doubt that there will be an impact on pain management per se, as the only responders are those who respond to sham. Chiropractors will probably add this as a service in their offices, so it will appeal to the same crowd.

 

[drusso]

That is fine. It will keep the oldsters occupied, instead of perching at McDonalds or local cafes. Usually acupuncturists, like chiropractors, keep doing acupuncture on patients who do not respond. Thus it keeps people occupied and out of everyone's hair. I had a one day a week clinic at the VA about ten years ago and don't think I ever ran across a single patient who improved with it, yet the acupuncturist insisted on the vets doing the "treatment" a couple times a week. The acupuncture gal was working on contract and was pulling over $500K from the VA, so it was a good racket for her. She would scoff at "quackery" like stims and surgery, which was very entertaining. I recall her doing acupuncture on a guy with cervical stenosis, even after the guy was losing bowel and bladder function. I was surprised that her acupuncture did not cure his myelopathy, as it worked so well for everything else. It is a situation of "if all you have is hammer, everything looks like a nail".

Obviously the two largest studies (one in the US and the other in Europe) showed that acupuncture is superior to PT alone, but equivalent to sham acupuncture and PT. That sham is a nurse randomly poking the patient with toothpicks. SPINE every year usually runs the "efficacy vs effectiveness" article in which they debate whether acupuncture should be offered when we know it is equivalent to sham, but have sham responders. The general concensus is go ahead and do it if it does not cause financial trouble. Oldsters similarly will consume vitamins and herbals as well, so they waste their money on other sources of quackery.

Acupuncture is just one of the many quack treatments offered today. Oddly, when compared to massage and manipulation, massage works better and has a longer duration of effect.

Looks like it will keep the oldsters out of everyone's hair for a period of time and give them something to do. I would doubt that there will be an impact on pain management per se, as the only responders are those who respond to sham. Chiropractors will probably add this as a service in their offices, so it will appeal to the same crowd.

Pain patients deserve more than cheap dressed up quackery. No one can explain the bioplausibility of acupuncture.

 

[SSdoc33]

Pain patients deserve more than cheap dressed up quackery. No one can explain the bioplausibility of acupuncture.

i really dont understand you. you rail against acupuncture, but are all aboard the regenerative medicine train. where's the logic?

 

[drusso]

i really dont understand you. you rail against acupuncture, but are all aboard the regenerative medicine train. where's the logic?

Regen has been around since 1970.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Regen has been around since 1970.

Hasn't acupuncture been around since something BC?

I'm not an acupuncture fan, but your line of reasoning here doesn't seem to hold water.

 

[drusso]

Hasn't acupuncture been around since something BC?

I'm not an acupuncture fan, but your line of reasoning here doesn't seem to hold water.

Acupuncture was invented in a time when spirits were believed to cause illness. Meridians and Chi are illusory quackery. Regen Med is grounded in centuries-old observations about tissue healing but truly was discovered on the heels of advances in cellular science and bio-engineering and is derived from the basic science of biology.

History of Regenerative Medicine | Regenerative Medicine | University of Nebraska Medical Center

History of Regenerative Medicine

www.unmc.edu

Regenerative medicine: Historical roots and potential strategies in modern medicine

Regenerative medicine is a distinct major advancement in medical treatment which is based on the principles of stem cell technology and tissue enginee…

www.sciencedirect.com

I do not want to see my payroll taxes paying for quackery; instead, I want to advance cellular science.

 

[lobelsteve]

Regen has been around since 1970.

Acupuncture has been around for 5000 yrs.
appeal to antiquity. Propaganda techniques.

 

[clubdeac]

I’d be MUCH more concerned about NPs pushing physicians out of medicine than people trying a relatively harmless therapy for pain relief. Worse thing that happens is they try it for 12 weeks and then give up. The lost medicare dollars spent on acupuncture would still pale in comparison to all the unnecessary diagnostic studies and referrals and flat out misdiagnosis’ by NPs playing doctor. It’s like letting a bunch of 3rd year Med students run our health care system

 

[SommeRiver]

Who cares if someone gets acupuncture and Medicare covers it?

Small potatoes IMO.

 

[drusso]

Who cares if someone gets acupuncture and Medicare covers it?

Small potatoes IMO.

Bad financial stewardship of public money. I don’t want my tax dollars supporting Moo-Shu medicine.

 

[bronx43]

Who cares if someone gets acupuncture and Medicare covers it?

Small potatoes IMO.

You do realize that there’s a finite amount of funds available for Medicare right? You also realize that funds taken away to pay for one treatment necessarily decreases funds for other treatments. So, non-physicians being paid by the Medicare for unsubstantiated treatments means lower reimbursement for physician performed services backed by data.

 

[SommeRiver]

I'm aware and I don't care. Exercise the power of the free market and take less Medicare pts.

 

[bronx43]

I'm aware and I don't care. Exercise the power of the free market and take less Medicare pts.

Lol at invoking free market then bringing up Medicare.

 

[SommeRiver]

Lol at invoking free market then bringing up Medicare.

Do explain...No one forces you to accept Medicare do they?

 

[drusso]

Who cares if someone gets acupuncture and Medicare covers it?

Small potatoes IMO.

Medicare Aims To Study Treating Real Pain With Fake Medicine

The US Medicare system wants to sponsor a set of trials to test if acupuncture is effective for low back pain. Even though acupuncture is little more than an elaborate placebo, and countless studies have shown as much, the US will spend millions of dollars to discover this yet again.

www.forbes.com

"For those who aren't familiar with the claims of acupuncture, let's do a very quick summary: acupuncturists stick needles in a person's body at specific points in order to manipulate a mystical life force that they call "qi" (proounced "chee"). This idea is "a pre-scientific superstition" that has no basis in medicine, physiology or biology, and has never had any good scientific evidence to support it. Acupuncturists don't even agree on where the acupuncture points are, which should make it impossible to do a scientific study. It's not at all surprising that acupuncture doesn't work; indeed, if it did work, modern medicine would have to seriously examine what mechanism could possibly explain it."

 

[SommeRiver]

Medicare Aims To Study Treating Real Pain With Fake Medicine

The US Medicare system wants to sponsor a set of trials to test if acupuncture is effective for low back pain. Even though acupuncture is little more than an elaborate placebo, and countless studies have shown as much, the US will spend millions of dollars to discover this yet again.

www.forbes.com

"For those who aren't familiar with the claims of acupuncture, let's do a very quick summary: acupuncturists stick needles in a person's body at specific points in order to manipulate a mystical life force that they call "qi" (proounced "chee"). This idea is "a pre-scientific superstition" that has no basis in medicine, physiology or biology, and has never had any good scientific evidence to support it. Acupuncturists don't even agree on where the acupuncture points are, which should make it impossible to do a scientific study. It's not at all surprising that acupuncture doesn't work; indeed, if it did work, modern medicine would have to seriously examine what mechanism could possibly explain it."

I'm very much aware of this, and I get your point. I even agree with your position but I see this is as a very insignificant issue.