Mental Health Counseling?

[JackD]

This question is more out of curiosity than anything else. Many of the grad schools i am looking at have masters degrees in mental health counseling. Much of the time it is not a psychology degree, it is health services or human services or something in the order of _______ services degree. Clearly very related but not quite the same. I have never actually seen a doctoral degree in mental health counseling. Are there doctorates in that or would anyone with a masters in MHC just go on to a PhD or PsyD in counseling psychology?

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[empathiosis]

This question is more out of curiosity than anything else. Many of the grad schools i am looking at have masters degrees in mental health counseling. Much of the time it is not a psychology degree, it is health services or human services or something in the order of _______ services degree. Clearly very related but not quite the same. I have never actually seen a doctoral degree in mental health counseling. Are there doctorates in that or would anyone with a masters in MHC just go on to a PhD or PsyD in counseling psychology?

I only learned about this degree about a year ago. The degree that tends to follow the MA and MS in various types of counseling is the PhD in Counselor Education. These are CACREP accredited programs which prepare their students to teach in master's in counseling programs and also to practice (because people who pursue this degree become licensed counselors en route or prior to applying). It's an interesting option that isn't discussed very often.

For accredited counselor ed programs, see:
http://www.cacrep.org/directory.html

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I know the MA/MS tends to be a terminating degree for a LMHC licensure.

-t

 

[JackD]

I know the MA/MS tends to be a terminating degree for a LMHC licensure.

-t

That is generally what i have been seeing. Although usually if a school offers a masters in something, they also offer a doctorate in that area. However, while this isn't 100% psychology, its appears to be pretty damn close. Maybe the reasoning is that to turn out a large number of doctors, it would probably have to become its own, distinguished field?

It's an interesting option that isn't discussed very often.

Agreed. I know this is a forum for people interested in become clinical psychologist but it is surprising that many don't even glance at a similar, yet much less competitive field. From what i can tell, MHC and clinical psychologist (the clinicians anyway) do many of the same things in the same settings. Then again, these folks are all about research, right?

 

[empathiosis]

Here are a few good Counselor Ed doctoral programs, in case you're curious.

http://www.soe.vt.edu/counselored/doctoral.html

http://www.ed.psu.edu/cned/ced.asp

http://oregonstate.edu/education/programs/aboutcoun.html

http://www.teach.virginia.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1110&Itemid=347&Itemid=

 

[empathiosis]

Then again, these folks are all about research, right?

The folks who get PhDs in Counselor Education also do research and have all the same requirements that faculty in other programs do.

I think it doesn't get more attention because people who want to be psychologists are really focussed on what they want to do and nothing else. I'm not sure how competitive PhD programs in Counselor Education are ... they can't possibly be as competitive at clinical psych doctorates ... and they may be a good alternative for some people.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

That is generally what i have been seeing. Although usually if a school offers a masters in something, they also offer a doctorate in that area. However, while this isn't 100% psychology, its appears to be pretty damn close. Maybe the reasoning is that to turn out a large number of doctors, it would probably have to become its own, distinguished field?

I think it is quite different though....as it is more in counseling, I don't think they look as much at the pathology. From what I've seen it seems like more practical training, and much less on the theory and no venture into any of the supporting research for methods.

Agreed. I know this is a forum for people interested in become clinical psychologist but it is surprising that many don't even glance at a similar, yet much less competitive field. From what i can tell, MHC and clinical psychologist (the clinicians anyway) do many of the same things in the same settings. Then again, these folks are all about research, right?

They both can do general therapy, but I think the training is apples and oranges. I think financially they are much more limited, which is one reason why people may not look as much into it.

-t

 

[JackD]

I think it is quite different though....as it is more in counseling, I don't think they look as much at the pathology. From what I've seen it seems like more practical training, and much less on the theory and no venture into any of the supporting research for methods.

So they are more focused on conducting therapy than trying to find the actual pathological causes for disorders? Sounds like the other extreme, with researches on the other side and the PsyD folks in the middle somewhere.

I have seen course descriptions for many of these programs and the students seem to split their time mostly between learning assessment skills and learning various therapy techniques. Although they appear to take several psychopathology courses, so i am guessing they are flying blind when it comes to the causes or potential causes of disorders.

I think financially they are much more limited, which is one reason why people may not look as much into it.

Do you mean in terms of yearly salary? I have seen statistics on the average salary and it isn't exactly terrible. You guys aren't in this field for the money, are you?

 

[Orchid]

I am considering a MS in Mental Health Counseling as my backup plan. Is it realistic to take this step and apply again 2 years from today? Will it improve my chances at all?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I am considering a MS in Mental Health Counseling as my backup plan. Is it realistic to take this step and apply again 2 years from today? Will it improve my chances at all?

Most likely not, especially if you are looking for clinical programs. You won't get credit for the classes, and the clinical treatment is most likely much more in depth in theory and practice, so the time/money is better spent elsewhere...like as a RA, grant writing, etc.

-t

 

[JackD]

Most likely not, especially if you are looking for clinical programs.

-t

Well i don't know about that, at least when it comes to professional schools. Now if you are talking about your oh so precious fully funded programs (whats the matter, you don't have $85,000 sitting around?) then you probably wouldn't have much of a shot getting in with a MHC. However, looking at the professional schools, from what i have seen and been told, many student do successfully do it. It does take longer though, that is true. I was told about 6-8 years.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Well i don't know about that, at least when it comes to professional schools. Now if you are talking about your oh so precious fully funded programs (whats the matter, you don't have $85,000 sitting around?) then you probably wouldn't have much of a shot getting in with a MHC. However, looking at the professional schools, from what i have seen and been told, many student do successfully do it. It does take longer though, that is true. I was told about 6-8 years.

True, but my argument is that a person would be better off spending their time gaining direct experience, compared to going to school for a degree that will not serve them nearly as well once they finish their clinical training. The MHC degree is a perfectly legitimate degree and it allows people to practice once they are licensed, but it really shouldn't be seen as a stepping stone into a clinical program, because it really isn't meant to be, and it really doesn't give that much of an advantage, compared to other options.

-t

 

[JackD]

True, but my argument is that a person would be better off spending their time gaining direct experience, compared to going to school for a degree that will not serve them nearly as well once they finish their clinical training. The MHC degree is a perfectly legitimate degree and it allows people to practice once they are licensed, but it really shouldn't be seen as a stepping stone into a clinical program, because it really isn't meant to be, and it really doesn't give that much of an advantage, compared to other options.

-t

Well, from what i have seen, someone going from MHC to clinical would end up taking all of the same courses that someone who went bachelor's straight to PsyD in clinical, so nothing would really be lost. I think the difference would be in the MHC route that you would end up taking many more classes, paying more money, and staying in school longer. Then again, is that all that bad? The money thing would suck, probably $10,000 more at a professional school and maybe an extra year and half of schooling. However, they would have taken more classes and have six months more of internship than a straight clinical route.

I think the real trade off is time and money saved vs. a little more experience and therapy knowledge going out in the world. I guess 20 years down the road, all of the extra schooling wouldn't matter but it would probably be a less competitive way to at least get into grad school. I think we all can admit that there are many qualified people who don't get into any programs. MHC is either an alternative or a way to get your foot in the door.

 

[Orchid]

. The MHC degree is a perfectly legitimate degree and it allows people to practice once they are licensed, but it really shouldn't be seen as a stepping stone into a clinical program, because it really isn't meant to be, and it really doesn't give that much of an advantage, compared to other options.

-t

T4C, what would be a good stepping stone? I have a BA in Psych, good GPA, decent GRE (not a native English speaker)... I've tried but couldn't get an RA position. I got my BA in my home country and I don't know anyone here. I figured that MHC would be helpful but now I realize I probably spent the application fee for nothing. Your advice would be appreciated!

I don't want to end up in finance 🙂

 

[JackD]

T4C, what would be a good stepping stone? I have a BA in Psych, good GPA, decent GRE (not a native English speaker)... I've tried but couldn't get an RA position. I got my BA in my home country and I don't know anyone here. I figured that MHC would be helpful but now I realize I probably spent the application fee for nothing. Your advice would be appreciated!

I don't want to end up in finance 🙂

What? A degree in MHC is not a useless degree. It's not a degree in liberal studies or art history. You could conduct therapy with people, you could help people through hard times. You could work with people who have severe psychological problems. It is not a doctorate, that is true but it doesn't mean you couldn't do nearly all of the things you want to do. It doesn't even mean you couldn't become a doctor. It would take longer but it is far from impossible. People do it all the time.

Yeah it would cool to be called Dr. "Add My Last Name Here" but that isn't the goal. My goal is to be able to help people get through tough times, to be there for people when they need someone the most and there are many realistic ways to do that. You don't have to be a doctor to do it.

So you could use it as a path towards being a clinical or counseling psychologist, there is no rule against it. It would probably work out just fine. However, if in 20 years for some reason you have a masters in mental health counseling instead of a doctorate in psychology, would you really think that you messed up?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Well, from what i have seen, someone going from MHC to clinical would end up taking all of the same courses that someone who went bachelor's straight to PsyD in clinical, so nothing would really be lost. I think the difference would be in the MHC route that you would end up taking many more classes, paying more money, and staying in school longer. Then again, is that all that bad? The money thing would suck, probably $10,000 more at a professional school and maybe an extra year and half of schooling. However, they would have taken more classes and have six months more of internship than a straight clinical route.

I think the real trade off is time and money saved vs. a little more experience and therapy knowledge going out in the world. I guess 20 years down the road, all of the extra schooling wouldn't matter but it would probably be a less competitive way to at least get into grad school. I think we all can admit that there are many qualified people who don't get into any programs. MHC is either an alternative or a way to get your foot in the door.

The bolded part was my general point. As a degree, a MHC degree is perfectly valid and can lead to licensure, my point was that if you plan on going the clinical doctorate route, it really won't add much to your eventual training.

More experience in an applied area would probably benefit you more (direct research, psych teching, case management, etc).

-t

 

[mftPsychSoc]

From what I've been gathering(through my own personal research & through advice from others) the MHC degree is extremely useful if one wants to practice at the masters level(especially after getting licensed).

As T4C, and many others have pointed out, a clinical PhD may not be the best route to go after getting the MHC degree, mainly b/c most programs are research focused, and the MHC degree tends to a practitioner degree. A clinical PsyD will probably be more lenient, but again as explained in other posts and discussions, clinical theory has a different focus than counseling theory.

What seems to be more viable(and is an option I'm considering) is looking at Counseling Psych programs. The focus of these programs I think, will be better suited for someone coming form a MHC background, and I think the transferring of credits might prove to be "better" than with a clinical program, even though it totally depends on the institution. Although, I think it really depends on whether or not a person sees them self working more often with persistently mentally ill persons(e.g. schizophrenia) or people who have problems dealing "normal" developmental problems (e.g. job stress). Like counseling psych, Counselor Ed programs can also be utilized by someone with a MHC background who may be looking at obtaining more advanced studies. Unlike counseling psych, Counselor Ed programs do not have the training in assessment and testing that is associated more traditionally with psychology, at least this is what I've come across in my research of different programs🙂.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A clinical PsyD will probably be more lenient, but again as explained in other posts and discussions, clinical theory has a different focus than counseling theory.

I still think it is an apples and oranges discussion, as the classwork for a Ph.D. / Psy.D will be the same (minus some extra research classes vs. intervention classes), so the learning really doesn't cross over.

The MHC degree really should be treated as a terminal degree and not a stepping stone.

 

[AMNOT3]

I am interested in this entire thread, (old as it may be) and I am curious to know, if I were to get my Master's in Clinical Mental Health Counseling and become a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, would it be in my best interest to then get my Doctorate in Counseling Psychology? I think that is what this thread basically says, but I want to be sure. I am not interested in stopping at a Master's as my ultimate goal is to get a Doctorate. But for various reasons, it might be better for me to get a Master's first and then go on to a Doctorate. Any help would be greatly appreciated, if it helps I live in Florida.

 

[cara susanna]

What are your reasons for wanting to get a doctorate?

 

[AMNOT3]

Cara,

I am not specifically interested in academia, which is the main reason I am told I should get my Doctorate. I would like to get my Doctorate to be more marketable and have the ability to open my own practice. I am told that this is doable with a Master's and as a LMHC, however I am also told that I am then limited to how far I can go. I am curious to see how people who are currently working on either a Master's or Doctorate feel about this. I am also curious to see how people who have graduated feel about the course they chose.

Having said all this, I am certain I would like to work with children, specifically developmental disorders. I hope this helps answer your question. In turn, I hope it helps me as well. Thanks!

 

[JustNoticing]

You can absolutely go into private practice with an mental health counseling degree, at least in the states I've been. I've also worked alongside LMHC's who were ast clinic directors. But yea, there is technically some sort of limit to your role within certain settings, as you may not be able to supervise a PhD student, for example. Billing on certain insurance can be difficult, but that's a different issue. I believe the market is decent for LMHCs in Florida.

Luckily, a few programs in counseling psych actually require an MA first, but aside from those programs it will end up taking you longer and costing you a bit more money to get there. Also, don't expect much emphasis placed developmental disabilities within a counseling psych program.

What role you want to play working with children with developmental disorders? I've seen MSW's do amazing work and rise to administrative positions with that population, but they weren't doing things like testing, writing behavior plans etc. I've also seen MHC's who didn't have the requisite background and training be asked to do behaviorally intensive work, ala ABA that they didn't have the training for. I'd go with a clinical program with a strong behavioral focus if that's the population you want to work with and are set on working towards a doctorate.

 

[AMNOT3]

FreudianSlipper,

I would really like to "keep it simple" and do counseling/psychotherapy. I say "keep it simple" because I realize that nothing is simple and I know I would be working with many other factors such as the family/guardian and other agencies if applicable. I have interest in everything! Research, assessment, counseling, etc. however I know that I would prefer to focus on counseling, working with developmental disorders and the families to help alleviate (or try to help) the general issues that come with having a child with a developmental disorder.

I realize I speak in some general terms here, but I just seem to be getting conflicting answers to my questions. I am curious to know if I am a LMHC and have a Master's in Clinical Mental Health, would it be in my best interests to go on for my Doctorate? (I realize this is something I need to decide for myself, but I would like to know what anyone has to say about this...)

I also know that you can go into private practice with a Mental Health Counseling degree, however I am also concerned that in Florida, especially South Florida, I might not be able to focus on working with developmental disabilities and stand the chance of finding myself working more with addictions. By this I mean not being able to be as selective as I want about who I treat, since addictions (and CAP) is a very large market down here.

I am just so overwhelmed at trying to find answers and also overwhelmed with information that I don't always know what to do with that I find myself confused. I really appreciate any and all help and greatly appreciate your responses.

 

[erg923]

By this I mean not being able to be as selective as I want about who I treat.

Thats not really a luxury you have if you want to have a fiscally solvent business/practice, at least not early in your career.
And if you work for a CMHC or in a hospital, you will be treating who they tell you to treat. Period.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

Thats not really a luxury you have if you want to have a fiscally solvent business/practice, at least not early in your career.
And if you work for a CMHC or in a hospital, you will be treating who they tell you to treat. Period.

I mean I'm sure it is best to see a wide variety regardless of who you work for. But honestly they do seem to not look at the theory behind the pathology as much as a psychologist would.

 

[AMNOT3]

Thats not really a luxury you have if you want to have a fiscally solvent business/practice, at least not early in your career.
And if you work for a CMHC or in a hospital, you will be treating who they tell you to treat. Period.

I meant later on in my career, not in the very beginning.

 

[inurmind]

I know the MA/MS tends to be a terminating degree for a LMHC licensure.

-t

what do you mean " terminating degree" ?

 

[PsychBoxe]

A terminal degree is the highest academic degree in a field of study and/or it can be used to describe a degree that does not lead to a higher degree within the same academic program or institution. For example, a Master of Arts in Clinical Mental Health Counseling is a terminal degree because a doctorate in that degree does not exist. Additionally, some institutions offer a Master of Science in Clinical Psychology that it not captured within a doctoral program.

 

[futureapppsy2]

This thread is almost 6 years old, just FYI.