Merger and how it will affect class of 2020?

[073116]

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So AOA will cease to exist as accrediting body by June (or is it July) 2020. All remaining residencies have to be accredited by ACGME right? What does this really mean for DOs graduating in 2020? Will it be easier or harder to match? Will they even look at COMLEX at that point or everyone will need USMLE? I have many questions, but maybe someone can shed a light on this god forgotten dark land territory?

 

[deleted407021]

All remaining residencies have to be accredited by ACGME right?

Yes.

What does this really mean for DOs graduating in 2020?

We will be matching into ACGME residencies.

Will it be easier or harder to match?

No one knows. Probably both (depending on specialty).

Will they even look at COMLEX at that point or everyone will need USMLE?

We will still need to take COMLEX to graduate and we will also probably still realistically need to take USMLE to be competitive for a broad spectrum of programs.

I have many questions, but maybe someone can shed a light on this god forgotten dark land territory?

There is no life in the void.

 

[Leggomyeggo128]

This is an interesting question. The reality is no one knows. The powers that be are not very forthcoming. When the NBOME CEO came to my school to speak, I asked him if he would recommend DO students take the USMLE to be competitive for residency. Long, rambling story made short, he didn't have an answer, or at least not a good one. However, directly after the NBOME talk, a clinical faculty member came forward and stated (paraphrasing): "I don't want there to be any confusion...we strongly encourage everyone to take the USMLE."

Having said that. COMLEX is not going away any time soon. It generates too much money and the osteopathic governing bodies care about nothing else.

As for matching...I actually think it will help DO students. It is time we stepped up, relinquished the safety net of AOA residencies, and worked along our MD colleagues as absolute equals. All the excuses PDs make to discriminate against DOs will slowly vanish, and, I believe, we will see DOs matching just as well if not better moving forward.

 

[073116]

Can someone try to do an ungrateful job and predict which specialties will be easier to match in 2020 for us DOs and which will be probably harder?

 

[Leggomyeggo128]

Can someone try to do an ungrateful job and predict which specialties will be easier to match in 2020 for us DOs and which will be probably harder?

I hate this question. Of course the surgical subspecialties, dermatology, IR, and others will continue to be difficult, while primary care will be just as open to DOs as they were in the past.

But this is nothing new. Nor has it ever been new. Work hard...make connections...do research...score high and you will match any field you want regardless of if you are an MD or a DO. Your motivation and performance are WAY more important than any two letters. Far too often, DO students take on the "whoa is me" approach or wallow in their self-created inferiority complex.

I know not everyone will agree with me, but the merger is great for DOs and the best step our profession has taken in recent memory to improve itself.

 

[deleted407021]

"whoa is me"

What a Russian guy says after he's scared by his own reflection.

 

[073116]

Can someone try to do an ungrateful job and predict which specialties will be easier to match in 2020 for us DOs and which will be probably harder?

I hate this question. Of course the surgical subspecialties, dermatology, IR, and others will continue to be difficult, while primary care will be just as open to DOs as they were in the past.

But this is nothing new. Nor has it ever been new. Work hard...make connections...do research...score high and you will match any field you want regardless of if you are an MD or a DO. Your motivation and performance are WAY more important than any two letters. Far too often, DO students take on the "whoa is me" approach or wallow in their self-created inferiority complex.

I know not everyone will agree with me, but the merger is great for DOs and the best step our profession has taken in recent memory to improve itself.

I agree with you. Having same residencies will eventually (in the long run) positively affect DO image. IMHO and it sounds silly, I know, but we DOs should have a right to put MD letters after our name after passing USMLEs, essentially most DOs should have MD as well.

 

[DocWinter]

IMHO and it sounds silly, I know, but we DOs should have a right to put MD letters after our name after passing USMLEs, essentially most DOs should have MD as well.

You make me believe you have or think there is some shame or regret for having DO after your name instead of MD. Why on earth would DOs want to misidentify as MDs ?

 

[EmergDoc2B]

Can someone try to do an ungrateful job and predict which specialties will be easier to match in 2020 for us DOs and which will be probably harder?

I agree with you. Having same residencies will eventually (in the long run) positively affect DO image. IMHO and it sounds silly, I know, but we DOs should have a right to put MD letters after our name after passing USMLEs, essentially most DOs should have MD as well.

I never want MD after my name, no disrespect.

 

[the argus]

You make me believe you have or think there is some shame or regret for having DO after your name instead of MD. Why on earth would DOs want to misidentify as MDs ?

I never want MD after my name, no disrespect.

It's great that you guys specifically identify as osteopathic physicians and seem to have a sense of pride about that. I mean that sincerely. But I would bet that the vast majority of DOs (like >95%, and especially most recent grads) couldn't care less about the letters after their name, and went to DO school because they wanted to practice medicine in the US and didn't get into a USMD school.

In my opinion, this merger is the first (well not even first probably, lets say next) step in the destruction and phasing out of the DO degree in the US. While not exactly the same, the story of the LL.B. and JD is a good parallel. At some point accrediting and licensing bodies will realize that there's basically no difference between DO and MD physicians nowadays, everything will come under the same bodies, and DO schools will start conferring the MD degree. At this point, previous DO grads will have the option to update their degree to a MD, which the vast majority will. Some won't so you will still see DO after names occasionally, just like you still occasionally see LL.B.

This will likely happen in full when the old guard of DOs eventually retire/die/etc, and what is left is a group of physicans who the vast majority don't feel any particular connection to osteopathic medicine. They just view themselves as physicians, not specifically osteopathic physicians.

That's my guess anyway.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

There are differences between DO's and MD's but it's mostly our history and the musculoskeletal component in our education. The old adage that DO's treat the patient as a whole, and see the patient a person, not a disease just doesn't hold much water these days because medicine in general, recognizes the benefit of these practices. To your point, I applied to both MD and DO and was happy being trained in either because I wanted to be a physician. Now as I start my 4th year I am very happy with my choice and would never give up the degree that I've worked so hard to get. Replacing the DO with MD would, to me, be an affront to the professors who taught me and the school that has been so good to me.
As a side note, the extra anatomy we get has been a huge bonus for me on all my rotations. It's one less thing I have to teach / reteach myself and I can focus on learning new things.

 

[Mosonik]

I appreciate the attempts to equalize the attitudes toward both degrees, especially given the osteopathic hx as the 'minority' designation and given the tensions there. However, I've found there to be subtle but significant differences in our approach to the science of medicine when treating people. If you spend more time in the larger university systems with MD students and preceptors I think you'll recognize that. It's not that is has to be about comparison with one superior or inferior but there really are more differences in our approaches than you may realize (though some MDs seem more osteopathic and vice versa). I am and have been spending a lot of time this year with doctors and trainees from a top US hospital and there are quite a few unique things we bring as DO trained. I think its something to embrace and use an an opportunity to teach and improve the larger system. Patients really value what we have to offer and Ive had nothing but positive feedback from 'allopathic' docs.

 

[GUH]

As for matching...I actually think it will help DO students. It is time we stepped up, relinquished the safety net of AOA residencies, and worked along our MD colleagues as absolute equals. All the excuses PDs make to discriminate against DOs will slowly vanish, and, I believe, we will see DOs matching just as well if not better moving forward.

Magical thinking. There is zero evidence that the merger will stop discrimination. We already work alongside MDs as equals and discrimination still occurs.

 

[GUH]

Can someone try to do an ungrateful job and predict which specialties will be easier to match in 2020 for us DOs and which will be probably harder?

Nobody will tell you which specialties will be easier to match into because it's quite likely that the answer is none. Family Medicine will still be fairly open but as of right now there are already an abundance of spots reserved for DOs even in the post-match and those are going away. So competitive specialties will be a harder match and I think even less competitive specialties will be tougher for DOs than they are now.

 

[DocWinter]

Good points @the argus , I get where you're coming from but disagree that there will be a merger to MD by name. I see us staying like the DMD/DDS , probably meaninglessly different but still distinct.

Personally, I went DO because I wanted that training. I'd like to keep my initials that way because it's what I chose. I would be happy to wear MD as a physician if I had applied MD and don't look differently at an MD because I know that we are nearly identical in90% or more of our practice.

 

[073116]

You make me believe you have or think there is some shame or regret for having DO after your name instead of MD. Why on earth would DOs want to misidentify as MDs ?

I only meant, that if we pass both board exams we should have right to put MD (if we choose so). Same for MDs, if they pass COMLEX they should have right to put DO (if they wish so). I understand passing boards is not equivalent to 4 year education, but since mostly it's OMM that differs between the two and that knowledge is reflected on board exams, so then it should be ok-ish.

 

[Leggomyeggo128]

Magical thinking. There is zero evidence that the merfer will stop discrimination. We already work alongside MDs as equals and discrimination still occurs.

Magical thinking? Really? There are anecdotal reports that DOs get discriminated against because:

We have our own residencies (that MDs can't get), so why should they share.

Additionally students w/o USMLE are discrimited against because we take an "inferior board exam" (30% of acgme still don't even consider comlex and an unknown amount would strongly recommend USMLE)

There is discrimination due to inferior entering statistics.

Discrimination due to crappy clinical Ed, etc, etc

Yes there is discrimination. But the more excuses we can take away from those that discriminate the better our prospects become.

As long as discrimination exists we are not equals. The merger is definitely a first step in lessening any remaining bias., thus putting us on a path to match better in all fields.

In conclusion, I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

 

[GUH]

Magical thinking? Really? There are anecdotal reports that DOs get discriminated against because:

We have our own residencies (that MDs can't get), so why should they share.

Additionally students w/o USMLE are discrimited against because we take an "inferior board exam" (30% of acgme still don't even consider comlex and an unknown amount would strongly recommend USMLE)

There is discrimination due to inferior entering statistics.

Discrimination due to crappy clinical Ed, etc, etc

Yes there is discrimination. But the more excuses we can take away from those that discriminate the better our prospects become.

As long as discrimination exists we are not equals. The merger is definitely a first step in lessening any remaining bias., thus putting us on a path to match better in all fields.

In conclusion, I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

If you can list some programs (or even one) that refused to match DOs in the past but have started to or will accept DOs in this match because of the merger, then please go ahead and prove me wrong by listing them. Until you have evidence that things have changed, it is purely wishful thinking.

 

[Leggomyeggo128]

If you can list some programs (or even one) that refused to match DOs in the past but have started to or will accept DOs in this match because of the merger, then please go ahead and prove me wrong by listing them. Until you have evidence that things have changed, it is purely wishful thinking.

I will give you two such examples. Both NYU and Columbia U who previously had listed on their websites that they do not accept osteopathic candidates into IM, have both removed it following the merger agreement in 2015.

In fact, NYU now states Doctors of osteopathic medicine are encouraged to apply...

Is that sufficient? Or would you like to continue furthering inaccuracies??

 

[Goro]

Trying to predict the results of the merger are like trying to predict the outcome of the 2020 elections. We simply don't know but it' is extremely unlikely that PDs at current ACGME residencies will suddenly open the doors to DOs, and ditto for DO programs to MDs. It will probably be a diffusional process, against a gradient.

Magical thinking. There is zero evidence that the merfer will stop discrimination. We already work alongside MDs as equals and discrimination still occurs.

Nobody will tell you which specialties will be easier to match into because it's quite likely that the answer is none. Family Medicine will still be fairly open but as of right now there are already an abundance of spots reserved for DOs even in the post-match and those are going away. So competitive specialties will be a harder match and I think even less competitive specialties will be tougher for DOs than they are now.

The right to have MD after your name has nothing to do with the exams you took, but the licensing requirements of the states. And right now, it's USMLE -> MD only, and COMLEX for DO. USMLE will not net a DO grad an MD degree.

I only meant, that if we pass both board exams we should have right to put MD (if we choose so). Same for MDs, if they pass COMLEX they should have right to put DO (if they wish so). I understand passing boards is not equivalent to 4 year education, but since mostly it's OMM that differs between the two and that knowledge is reflected on board exams, so then it should be ok-ish.

Perversely, a number of competitive residencies are OK with COMLEX II, but less so with COMLEX I. As a rule of thumb, the more competitive the ACGME residency is, the more the PD will only allow for USMLE I.

The text I have bolded below is the #1 reason why PD discriminate against DOs. I've discussed this elsewhere, but it's the one area where the AOA and COCA continue to shoot the profession in the foot. But the days of the "cult of Still" are over, in terms of casting aspersions.

Magical thinking? Really? There are anecdotal reports that DOs get discriminated against because:

We have our own residencies (that MDs can't get), so why should they share.

Additionally students w/o USMLE are discrimited against because we take an "inferior board exam" (30% of acgme still don't even consider comlex and an unknown amount would strongly recommend USMLE)

There is discrimination due to inferior entering statistics.

Discrimination due to crappy clinical Ed, etc, etc

Yes there is discrimination. But the more excuses we can take away from those that discriminate the better our prospects become.

As long as discrimination exists we are not equals. The merger is definitely a first step in lessening any remaining bias., thus putting us on a path to match better in all fields.

 

[Goro]

It's encouraging that they got rid of the "Dogs, Irish and DOs need not apply" language, but I'll believe it when I actually see a DO accepted into the program. But the glass doors are cracking...I see this occurring with my own students getting into formerly MD-only residency programs. No, I can't name them...I don't want to out myself!

I will give you two such examples. Both NYU and Columbia U who previously had listed on their websites that they do not accept osteopathic candidates into IM, have both removed it following the merger agreement in 2015.

In fact, NYU now states Doctors of osteopathic medicine are encouraged to apply...

Is that sufficient? Or would you like to continue furthering inaccuracies??

 

[hallowmann]

There are differences between DO's and MD's but it's mostly our history and the musculoskeletal component in our education. The old adage that DO's treat the patient as a whole, and see the patient a person, not a disease just doesn't hold much water these days because medicine in general, recognizes the benefit of these practices. To your point, I applied to both MD and DO and was happy being trained in either because I wanted to be a physician. Now as I start my 4th year I am very happy with my choice and would never give up the degree that I've worked so hard to get. Replacing the DO with MD would, to me, be an affront to the professors who taught me and the school that has been so good to me.
As a side note, the extra anatomy we get has been a huge bonus for me on all my rotations. It's one less thing I have to teach / reteach myself and I can focus on learning new things.

This is essentially my exact story and sentiment as well. Went in because I wanted to be a doctor, now shockingly happy about what and how I was taught. Wouldn't have it any other way at this point.

I appreciate the attempts to equalize the attitudes toward both degrees, especially given the osteopathic hx as the 'minority' designation and given the tensions there. However, I've found there to be subtle but significant differences in our approach to the science of medicine when treating people. If you spend more time in the larger university systems with MD students and preceptors I think you'll recognize that. It's not that is has to be about comparison with one superior or inferior but there really are more differences in our approaches than you may realize (though some MDs seem more osteopathic and vice versa). I am and have been spending a lot of time this year with doctors and trainees from a top US hospital and there are quite a few unique things we bring as DO trained. I think its something to embrace and use an an opportunity to teach and improve the larger system. Patients really value what we have to offer and Ive had nothing but positive feedback from 'allopathic' docs.

So I will say, I've seen this as well, and actually found it less prevalent (or non-existent) at public and rural MD universities as compared to ivory tower bastions of prestige and sub-sub-subspecialization that characterizes some MD universities. So I doubt it's an MD vs. DO thing as much as general environment/philosophy of the institution, it just happens to be more prevalent at MD universities probably for obvious reasons.

We'll see how the merger goes. I had more confidence that the AOA would pressure schools in order to stem adverse effects on lower performing students, but with the elimination of the placement rate requirement and seemingly endless school expansion, I'm less confident. Overall, still feel the merger is a pro and a step in the right direction, but disappointed to say the least in the AOA.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Magical thinking. There is zero evidence that the merfer will stop discrimination. We already work alongside MDs as equals and discrimination still occurs.

Was that a typo or did you combine merger and nerf?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think the best thing we can do for graduates is to allow for the USMLE to be a substituted exam series for DOs. The exams are in legal weight mirrors of each other, and personally I'd much prefer to focus on 1 set than on doing a mixture of two.

 

[cbrons]

What does this really mean for DOs graduating in 2020?

hope you like family med in Fargo, ND.

 

[GUH]

Was that a typo or did you combine merger and nerf?

typo.

 

[Dustbowl12]

im happy knowing if i match it will be ACGME, huge step forward for DO profession

 

[GUH]

im happy knowing if i match it will be ACGME, huge step forward for DO profession

DOs have had the option to forego the AOA match and just do the ACGME match for quite a long time. And of course, MD schools have existed for even longer than that.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

DOs have had the option to forego the AOA match and just do the ACGME match for quite a long time. And of course, MD schools have existed for even longer than that.

And now DOs can do both without choosing.

Honestly you're going to have to acknowledge that the days of osteopathic distinction and choosing osteopathic medicine are by in large gone and never coming back.

Likewise even if a person is very osteopathically inclined, no longer having to pay dues to be in good membership in the AOA is an advancement. Being able to be boarded by MD boards is a big deal also.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

hope you like family med in Fargo, ND.

Gr8 b8 m8 I r8 8/8. No h8, I appreci8 ur st8ment. I can't w8 for the d8 m8.


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[Moose A Moose]

Get in the mindset now that you're taking the USMLE (whether or not you need it to graduate) to offset the blow.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Get in the mindset now that you're taking the USMLE (whether or not you need it to graduate) to offset the blow.

I still don't know if this is true for many fields honestly. Midwest FM or Psych, PM&R, etc simply don't need the USMLE by in large to match relatively well. But if you want to match with SDN standards, then yes, taking the USMLE is pretty important.

That being said the need to take two exams is always going to be a major score deflator for DOs. Doing well on two exams with enormously different question styles and focus is going beyond OMM. And in the end the need to pass the COMLEX supersedes the possibility of doing medicore on the usmle and having a mildly better shot at a cut off program.

 

[Moose A Moose]

I still don't know if this is true for many fields honestly. Midwest FM or Psych, PM&R, etc simply don't need the USMLE by in large to match relatively well. But if you want to match with SDN standards, then yes, taking the USMLE is pretty important.

That being said the need to take two exams is always going to be a major score deflator for DOs. Doing well on two exams with enormously different question styles and focus is going beyond OMM. And in the end the need to pass the COMLEX supersedes the possibility of doing medicore on the usmle and having a mildly better shot at a cut off program.

I agree with the field respective approach to taking the USMLE, but disagree on the disparities between the USMLE and COMLEX. Haven't taken it myself just yet, but people I'm close to say that the stems on the COMLEX are more muddled than those on the USMLE. Aside from the OMM component, the content is pretty much the same- just worded a bit differently. If anything, the majority of students are saying the USMLE is a much better exam to sit for. Jus sayin.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

It's great that you guys specifically identify as osteopathic physicians and seem to have a sense of pride about that. I mean that sincerely. But I would bet that the vast majority of DOs (like >95%, and especially most recent grads) couldn't care less about the letters after their name, and went to DO school because they wanted to practice medicine in the US and didn't get into a USMD school.

In my opinion, this merger is the first (well not even first probably, lets say next) step in the destruction and phasing out of the DO degree in the US. While not exactly the same, the story of the LL.B. and JD is a good parallel. At some point accrediting and licensing bodies will realize that there's basically no difference between DO and MD physicians nowadays, everything will come under the same bodies, and DO schools will start conferring the MD degree. At this point, previous DO grads will have the option to update their degree to a MD, which the vast majority will. Some won't so you will still see DO after names occasionally, just like you still occasionally see LL.B.

This will likely happen in full when the old guard of DOs eventually retire/die/etc, and what is left is a group of physicans who the vast majority don't feel any particular connection to osteopathic medicine. They just view themselves as physicians, not specifically osteopathic physicians.

That's my guess anyway.

What your saying makes sense, and the way admissions are going It may be true, but the most important aspect of this is the time frame. We may see paradigm shifts while we are practicing as DOs or MDs, but I highly doubt the DO degree will disappear for a very long time.

While there are many on this forum that would jump at the chance for an MD, just as many, if not more of us are indifferent of medical degree type or very supportive of the DO degree. Take my home region of Appalachia and the southeast, there is almost a 1:1 ratio of DO:MD schools, and most MD programs are very "Osteopathic" in the sense that they are very rural medicine and MUS oriented (my university's MD program is very rural medicine oriented). Here we all have a common goal, and as a result here is very little if any DO bias.

What is This common goal? Rural medicine. Largely rural communities have been left hung out to dry by the medical community. As a result many areas (especially in the south) have physician shortages. 9 times out of 10 you will rarely find a MD student willing to practice in a small town/rural area. Hell, we have doctors joining Doctors without borders when we have physician shortages in our own country. DOs however are created for these areas. Look at schools like WVSOM, CUSOM, KYCOM, or any of the VCOMs. All strongly emphasize rural medicine with their students.

So maybe in the future we will see the DO degree die and the 100% MD takeover, but for now America needs DOs. Until MD schools can realize there is an issue with a patient having to drive 3 hours round trip to a hospital/office and fix it, the DO degree needs to stay. I don't care who does it, but this needs to be fixed before we blindly start destroying the degrees that are focused on furthering rural medicine. If it comes to it, I would 100% forego a clinical career after my medical education to advocate for this whether it is in the AOA or AMA.

Truth be told, the way I see it, the DO degree only still exists because MDs continually drop the ball in rural/underserved areas. They are the physicians medicine needs right now, they are just not the ones it wants. Remember DOs were created by AT Still as a reactionary movement against MD practices. I believe they still exist for that exact purpose, albeit now it is a reaction against the MD aversion towards rural medicine. Someone has to do it, and if MDs won't, DOs will.


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[ATPsynthase123]

I agree with the field respective approach to taking the USMLE, but disagree on the disparities between the USMLE and COMLEX. Haven't taken it myself just yet, but people I'm close to say that the stems on the COMLEX are more muddled than those on the USMLE. Aside from the OMM component, the content is pretty much the same- just worded a bit differently. If anything, the majority of students are saying the USMLE is a much better exam to sit for. Jus sayin.

Most DO students I have spoken to say that the COMLEX is actually about equal in difficulty to the USMLE. Like the COMLEX has more confusing passages and questions while the USMLE has more detail and the passages are longer. So what most will do is take the COMLEX first and then the USMLE soon after. In fact, most DO students that take the USMLE receive similar averages to their MD counterparts.


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I agree with the field respective approach to taking the USMLE, but disagree on the disparities between the USMLE and COMLEX. Haven't taken it myself just yet, but people I'm close to say that the stems on the COMLEX are more muddled than those on the USMLE. Aside from the OMM component, the content is pretty much the same- just worded a bit differently. If anything, the majority of students are saying the USMLE is a much better exam to sit for. Jus sayin.

The questions are different, the focus is different, what is high yield in usmle and comlex is different.

This means that someone with a relatively low average shouldn't take both. They need to pass med school, not risk doing ok on usmle and then failing comlex


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Essentially I have no doubt that most DO students could pass the USMLE if it was the only exam they had to take. But taking both puts a disproportionate risk for ppl who either have a history of poor test taking or aren't in the top 50% of their class.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

They are the physicians medicine needs right now, they are just not the ones it wants.

Subtle Batman reference. 10/10

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Subtle Batman reference. 10/10

I just watched the Dark Knight on Sunday!


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[Mr Roboto]

Essentially I have no doubt that most DO students could pass the USMLE if it was the only exam they had to take. But taking both puts a disproportionate risk for ppl who either have a history of poor test taking or aren't in the top 50% of their class.

You think that over 50% of DO students are at risk of failing the board exam that all MD students have to pass?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You think that over 50% of DO students are at risk of failing the board exam that all MD students have to pass?

No, I believe that people who are on the lower half of the class simply are going to end up struggling with the decision of whether or not to take the usmle because of the fact that they may need to focus more on maximizing their gains in terms of passing comlex and being a doctor. I mean if someone in the bottom 10% of a DO class took the USMLE and only the USMLE I'm pretty sure they'd pass by their second time, same thing with how it is on the MD side. However they need to take the COMLEX and pass that, and as such need to focus on that.

Obviously the 50% thing may be a bit too inflated, lets reel it back to Goro's bottom 1/3 to bottom 1/4th. But the point still stands that taking both exams for bottom ranking students hurts their chances of passing either and even for top students their scores likely are somewhat negatively affected by having to take two tests within a week of each other.

I think in the end the COMLEX itself is huge in hurting many DO students in getting to their goals. And which is why I believe that the USMLE should be the test of choice for DOs and that DOs be simply forced to either take a small part 2 that tests OMM or simply let that be left to the schools themselves to determine competency. Then again I in general have mildly radical views on the USMLE as well and don't think it should have a score at all and instead should be P/F.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Most DO students I have spoken to say that the COMLEX is actually about equal in difficulty to the USMLE. Like the COMLEX has more confusing passages and questions while the USMLE has more detail and the passages are longer. So what most will do is take the COMLEX first and then the USMLE soon after. In fact, most DO students that take the USMLE receive similar averages to their MD counterparts.


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No one says that. The USMLE is more difficult, but also much more reasonable at the same time from what I understand.

Also most take the USMLE first, study OMM for less than a week and then take the COMLEX. Because while in truth studying for the USMLE = studying for the COMLEX's material, but this does not mean you're studying for the same questioning still or the same focus. I.e USMLE is almost all pathophysiology, COMLEX focuses a lot less on biochem and a lot more on micro and neuro.

 

[Seth Joo]

So AOA will cease to exist as accrediting body by June (or is it July) 2020. All remaining residencies have to be accredited by ACGME right? What does this really mean for DOs graduating in 2020? Will it be easier or harder to match? Will they even look at COMLEX at that point or everyone will need USMLE? I have many questions, but maybe someone can shed a light on this god forgotten dark land territory?

Some people now think Ted Cruz or John Kasich will be running against Hillary in 2020, its not a solid prediction but the odds are there. As far as what will happen to DOs in 2020, who really knows. I really think things will start to change around 2025 or later, not before that date but don't quote me on that.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Some people now think Ted Cruz or John Kasich will be running against Hillary in 2020, its not a solid prediction but the odds are there. As far as what will happen to DOs in 2020, who really knows. I really think things will start to change around 2025 or later, not before that date but don't quote me on that.

Kasich has no real base within the Republican Party as he has rebuffed Donaldo too many times. He is now firmly a Rino in the eyes of the majority of the voting block. Ted Cruz in 4 years will be running on diminishing returns as his major base, evangelicals are the faith group seeing an enormous decline in membership and support and more and more Americans begin to become part of the other/non-adherence group.

As a whole this is very likely the last election that the Republicans could have won.

But returning back to your idea, I agree, I think a few years out of the merger there will almost certainly be a shake up within the osteopathic world as we continue to become more and more dependent on the allopathic side. Whether that means the LCME ending COCA or the NBME superseding the NBOME, we will see the power center of the osteopathic world begin to weaken.

 

[jw3600]

You think that over 50% of DO students are at risk of failing the board exam that all MD students have to pass?

What year are you? There were literally dozens of people in my class that decided not to take the USMLE after realizing how hard it was and it being unlikely they score remotely decent, if not failing. They then later falsely convinced themselves (my viewpoint , I guess we will see) that all they need is the COMLEX to match EVEN WITH THE MERGER. There are a **** ton of DO students that could not get a >28 on the MCAT. That's like missing 1/3 of the questions. Yes, I would be very concerned that many DO students would have trouble performing well on the USMLE, if not failing.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

MyMCAT score was lower. My step scores upper 80 -90 percentile. I was worried about the correlation during my first year but in my opinion hard work trumps an MCAT score all day. Do well in your classes, work hard and the results will come. My favorite quote," genius in 1% inspiration 99% perspiration." I outworked many folks who were supposed to be smarter than me, based off their superior MCAT scores, every day in 1st 2 years of med school.

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[Seth Joo]

Kasich has no real base within the Republican Party as he has rebuffed Donaldo too many times. He is now firmly a Rino in the eyes of the majority of the voting block. Ted Cruz in 4 years will be running on diminishing returns as his major base, evangelicals are the faith group seeing an enormous decline in membership and support and more and more Americans begin to become part of the other/non-adherence group.

As a whole this is very likely the last election that the Republicans could have won.

But returning back to your idea, I agree, I think a few years out of the merger there will almost certainly be a shake up within the osteopathic world as we continue to become more and more dependent on the allopathic side. Whether that means the LCME ending COCA or the NBME superseding the NBOME, we will see the power center of the osteopathic world begin to weaken.

Well DOs will continue to take the COMLEX for a while, well until 2025 or even later. The MD community will have an increasing influence on DOs but they will continue to exist as separate schools for a while. For both MDs and DOs to take one test, the curriculum of DO schools would have to change, I do not see that happening for a long time.

 

[jw3600]

.

You're welcome to PM me if you don't want to post it in thread.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What year are you? There were literally dozens of people in my class that decided not to take the USMLE after realizing how hard it was and it being unlikely they score remotely decent, if not failing. They then later falsely convinced themselves (my viewpoint , I guess we will see) that all they need is the COMLEX to match EVEN WITH THE MERGER. There are a **** ton of DO students that could not get a >28 on the MCAT. That's like missing 1/3 of the questions. Yes, I would be very concerned that many DO students would have trouble performing well on the USMLE, if not failing.

I actually disagree with this. Statistics show that at a 26 the pass rate plateaus. This means that beyond this point the capacity to pass becomes more correlated with other factors. The majority of DO classes could pass the USMLE if it were their only exam. However for people in the bottom 50% of their class they may need to make a decision.

I think honestly many people who feel like them not taking USMLE step 1 was a bad idea end up taking Step 2 to help. But even then the status of COMLEX could change a bit and some places may start accepting it more as many places don't really filter MD applicants by step score all that much either.