Michigan Malignant???

truly9

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    Now, this is what people are saying. But I thought that the interview day was great and the PD's were fantastic (very personable). Residents seemed happy. They do WORK VERY HARD.... heavier workload. But why does this place have the reputation of being very malignant???
     

    pretzel

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      I had the same very, very positive impression of Michigan. I am ranking it high on my list. I think it has that malignant reputation because it is so front-loaded, so it isn't great for prelims, but for categorical or primary care, it is really a great program because you actually get to reap the benefits of your hard work in later years. Out of all interviews, I was most impressed with Michigan's efforts. I felt they were the most personable and warm -- I met every single PD and associate PD in the initial introduction and throughout the day. This kind of personal attention and warmth means a lot to me, since their fellowship placement is so superb. I would really like to be happy and feel like I have some personal attention during my residency, so I'm not just intern #38 in the PD's eyes.
       

      ptptt

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        pretzel said:
        I had the same very, very positive impression of Michigan. I am ranking it high on my list. I think it has that malignant reputation because it is so front-loaded, so it isn't great for prelims, but for categorical or primary care, it is really a great program because you actually get to reap the benefits of your hard work in later years. Out of all interviews, I was most impressed with Michigan's efforts. I felt they were the most personable and warm -- I met every single PD and associate PD in the initial introduction and throughout the day. This kind of personal attention and warmth means a lot to me, since their fellowship placement is so superb. I would really like to be happy and feel like I have some personal attention during my residency, so I'm not just intern #38 in the PD's eyes.


        Do you really think that the program director is going to hold your hand throughout your 3 years of residency? Do you think your program director or anyone you met on that day is actually going to be your attending? Get real.

        Sure the interview was rosy and everything looked great. I was impressed with interview also but since then I have done a second look and have been corresponding with current residents (One of them is a close friend) and I have since then made Michigan pretty low on my list. The person that I know who is a 2nd year has told me that it is not as front loaded as everyone makes it out to be.

        I did a subinternship at michigan this past year also. The biggest turn off was the number of hours worked per week. The system is set up that the RRC only sees legit numbers but interns and residents often work well over the limits. See this discussion for more about this:
        http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=167168


        Michigan has the most notorious reputation for being malignant. They won't hesitate to remind you that they were the first "teaching hospital" in the country back in the 1800's and there is still an element of this today in their program.

        I am more surprised about the people who believe that Michigan isn't malignant.
        :thumbdown:
         
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        ptptt

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          pretzel said:
          think it has that malignant reputation because it is so front-loaded, so it isn't great for prelims, but for categorical or primary care, it is really a great program because you actually get to reap the benefits of your hard work in later years. .

          That is an interesting point, only there is one flaw. Michigan doesn't even offer any prelim spots. It is all catergorical, all 40 of them. So nope that can't be the reason it is malignant..... any other thoughts?
           

          pretzel

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            ptptt -- This is a really frustrating process, and I can understand your strong feelings about one school or another. I assume you had very good feelings about Michigan after your first look, so you went for a second look. If you disliked Michigan after your first look, that's a funny reason to do a second look. There are too many great programs in the country in my opinion -- I am having a hard time narrowing it down, so any negative feelings about one, and it's off my list. When you did your second look, why did you allow a negative view on your second look to change your opinion about your first look?

            I was taken on a tour by a prelim at Michigan, so Michigan does take prelims. There are 40 categorical positions, but you will find that there are also prelim and primary care positions in addition to this.

            I had the feeling from the housestaff that the PDs would be my attendings, but even if they are not, there is an important role for PDs in fellowship placement. I just like liking my PDs, even if they have no role other than friends and mentors.

            It also depends on what you call malignant. I call a program malignant if attendings become angry and disparage interns for not having the experience of residents or attendings. If tradition and formality bothers you at Michigan, you should try some of the prominent east and west coast programs. :) Case presentations are all done completely from memory in centuries old auditoriums, you introduce yourself by your name and school name, professors mention what position they hold and what instrument they play in what orchestra of what prominence, residents present a 30 min powerpoint every day and quote articles from last week's NEJM at daily rounds. Michigan is pretty laid back in comparison. :) I can understand if you thought Michigan was formal, because it was in many ways. Anyway, shame on them if they weren't kind to you -- that's no way to treat people who bother to come to their interview.
             

            PunchDrunk

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              To redirect the ultimate question here:

              Granted, you will work really hard at michigan, possibly more so than at many other institutions. But are the residents who have chosen to be there happy? Did they like the place in some part b/c of the expectations to work hard? I clearly sense there are a few residents who wish they had chosen another place to train, but would anyone currently there care to comment on how happy the majority of residents are with the program?

              Thanks.
               

              MidwestMD

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                To answer some points of confusion...

                1. Prelims- Michigan takes a very small number of prelims. There are 3 derm and 2 rad onc prelims in my intern class alone, not to mention a number of med-peds residents.

                2. PD attendings- Yes, our PD's do serve as your attendings on the floor. This includes the head PD (who was my attending for 1 month) and the associate PD's. I haven't worked with all of the PD's yet, but the one's I've worked with have been incredible clinicians, educators, and resident advocates. They will definitely go to bat for you. I've heard numerous stories from 2nd and 3rd yrs about 2 of the PD's who are nothing short of amazing in that regards. Now someone correct me if what I've been told is wrong (ahem...Nephron), but just a few yrs ago, one of our chief residents developed brain CA and sadly passed away. Before that though, our PD had helped pay out of his own pocket a moderate sum for this resident to receive treatment outside of the country (rumored from $10-20,000). One of the other PD's has been known to YELL at another service attending when a medicine resident was being grossly abused. So...pretzel is right when he says that were not just another # here.

                3. Resident Happiness- I think I've already talked this issue to death in other posts. You've already figured out that maybe I'm a little bit of an optimist in this regard ("Thank you sir!, may I have another??!!"). Stepping back and evaluating the overall malignancy of this program once again...I probably do have to admit that we work DAMN hard, and maybe the attendings and seniors could work a little harder towards getting post-call interns out by 1pm. But I'm happy here. Yes, all this talk about malignant programs did make me wonder about other places that I wish I would have checked out, but I'm still confident about my decision to come here. I even took the liberty of asking several other interns about their overall feel for the program and if they thought it was malignant. Surprisingly, a lot of them said "yes," but only in regards to work hours. The majority of them feel as I do that we get great training here from great faculty. And after a second to think about it, the vast majority said that they would have picked this program over again (you can take that "second" however you like). Then again, talk to Nephron :p
                 

                Coco_Nut

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                  I am not sure where all of these "malignant" vibes are coming from over the past few days with this thread and the "lets rank the malignant programs" thread. Maybe interns out there are feeling the winter swoon? I have asked classmates and people along the trail what they mean by malignant, and it is quite obvious that there is no consensus as to what this term actually means. :confused: So if we dont know what it means, then why continue to toss this term around.

                  I think that this forum is a useful tool for people to settle their internal debates about choosing their training program. And this "malignant" rhetoric seems to have become a jockying tool to slant the impressions of training programs. And the UMichigan unfortunately for it is in the middle of this. I interviewed at the UMich and didn't find many differences in the happiness of the housestaff or their working conditions as compared to similar programs in the midwest and northeast. And in general, this is a top notch training program, whose residents are not complaining when fellowship time comes around, that does not deserve to be slandered.
                   

                  Ursus Martimus

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                    ptptt said:
                    That is an interesting point, only there is one flaw. Michigan doesn't even offer any prelim spots. It is all catergorical, all 40 of them. So nope that can't be the reason it is malignant..... any other thoughts?


                    Seems to me anyone who makes such incorrect statements should have to cough up an apology?

                    You say, "I have since then made Michigan pretty low on my list." Maybe you just realize with behavior like your's, Michigan is likely to put you low on their list?
                     

                    ptptt

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                      Ursus Martimus said:
                      Seems to me anyone who makes such incorrect statements should have to cough up an apology?

                      You say, "I have since then made Michigan pretty low on my list." Maybe you just realize with behavior like your's, Michigan is likely to put you low on their list?


                      Okay Ursus maligamus, Here is your apology, I am sorry for saying that UofM does not offer any prelim spots. I guess the 3 derms and 2 radoncs, qualifies UofM as great place to go for prelim year. Speaking of malignant residents, I would just love working with radonc prelims...
                      I bet that ursus is one of the prelims at michigan

                      Malignance is defined as exactly what ursus's post states. So my apologies goes out to any michigan fan who I offended. And I appreciate that Michigan will rank me low, I was worried about that one.
                       

                      pretzel

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                        I was told by the prelim at Michigan that he loved the intense medicine training there, because he said it was the last time that he would get general medicine training, and he wanted to have a strong foundation crammed into one year of medicine before starting specialty training. But he noted that if you are a prelim who is looking for an easier intern year, Michigan is not a great place because they apparently train you very hard first year relative to other prelim internships.

                        This prelim said that he wanted a place that would work him hard during internship, and even after a half year, he feels very solid and secure in general medicine. He did say that he understands that we are all tired, not only from med school, but also from interviewing, but not to forget that when we are attendings, there will be no opportunity to go back for more training unless we want to put in more years. This prelim noted that as attendings, we will be expected to make decisions on our own, and he wanted to feel confident, so he wanted to train hard for his one year of medicine. He said easy years would come. :)
                         
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