Mid Tier Midwest Programs

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CloudEmperor

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I think that for radiology, it's understood the east coast and west coast are the powerhouses but the midwest is kind of a black box with little information.

Obviously the top tiers are easy to name, Mayo, WashU MIR, Northwestern, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin and Cleveland Clinic (I don't think I missed any big hitters) but how do the mid tier academics stack up in terms of each other and unique opportunities available?

I'm thinking about programs like: MCW, Cincinnati, Iowa, OSU, Case, SLU, Rush, UIC and Loyola.

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Nothing to add, but I am also interested in hearing any input about this as well.
 
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From my discussions with advisors, Minnesota and Iowa are roughly equal. Some say Minnesota is better, and some say Iowa is better.

I've heard good things about MCW from one of our fellows. They speak highly of their call experience at MCW (it was independent, not sure if it still is though). MCW may be the best out of MCW, Minnesota, and Iowa. MCW is obviously very, very strong if you are interested in IR.

U Chicago is considered by most a step behind Northwestern, but still a very solid program. Top 12 in terms of NIH dollars for radiology departments. Very strong in AI and IT development (e.g. PACs). Seems like a really cush program. Though Hyde Park is less than desirable, most residents live in the Loop and seem very happy.

Rush is top-notch is IR but their DR is not as strong. The top 2 programs in the city are considered to be Northwestern and U Chicago. Not sure what the 3rd best is.
 
Does no one have any knowledge of the places here?

It depends what youre looking for. I can think of two places in michigan where you will have a good resident life and have the chance to make bank, certainly more than some of the other places you mentioned. They both have solid fellowship placement as well
 
Seconding HFH and Beaumont for making bank with a decent lifestyle, low cost of living.
 
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Can anyone comment on Nebraska or either of the programs in Kansas City
 
I think that for radiology, it's understood the east coast and west coast are the powerhouses but the midwest is kind of a black box with little information.

Obviously the top tiers are easy to name, Mayo, WashU MIR, Northwestern, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin and Cleveland Clinic (I don't think I missed any big hitters) but how do the mid tier academics stack up in terms of each other and unique opportunities available?

I'm thinking about programs like: MCW, Cincinnati, Iowa, OSU, Case, SLU, Rush, UIC and Loyola.
 
Sorry really late to the reply party in this thread. I am from the Midwest, and interviewed at a lot of these places/ have friends in several of the places mentioned. I ended up matching on the West coast but I have some insight I can share through second hand experience and personal experience with interviews.

Iowa- Seems like a really solid academic program. Friends there like it. One of my current attendings trained there and seemed to like it. I didn't personally interview there.

Beaumont- I have a few friends there and I interviewed there. Really solid training in a community environment. There is a new medical school affiliated (Oakland). Residency is really cushy compared to most, with a lot of awesome moonlighting. Facilities are pretty nice, the hospital is in a wealthy area of the Detroit burbs. I remember people having solid fellowship matches (although most programs can make the same claim). Overall I really liked this place and I actually ranked it above a lot of solid mid tier academic programs. Also the area is pretty fun with regards to living.

Henry Ford- basically the same as with Beaumont. Older facilities. At Least when I interviewed, the moonlighting was at least as good but probably better than Beaumont. More trauma and volume than Beaumont based on it's proximity to Detroit proper.

Loyola- I think you get good training. Got the sense that they work residents really hard, for better or worse. Somewhat formal vibe which wasn't really what I was personally looking for.

UIC- Similar to Loyola, closer proximity to downtown Chicago. Felt a little less formal to me for whatever that's worth.

MCW- I know some current fellows at my program who really liked their training there. I didn't interview there personally.

Cleveland Clinic- I personally felt like the name was more impressive than the program, but there were also some weird things going on with resident morale back when I interviewed, things may be different now. Great exposure to pathology. Facilities are awesome. Cleveland is actually a solid place, with some under the radar cool vibes.

Case UH- I've heard from friends that the volume is pretty high, call can be pretty busy, but you see a lot. Lots of hands on procedure experience. Facilities are solid but not as cushy as Cleveland clinic. I've heard some grumbling that resident morale is low for whatever that's worth.

If you want ample moonlighting and overall quality of life I'd go for Beaumont or Henry Ford. I've heard nothing but solid things, especially if you are planning to practice in the Midwest.

For academic:
Cleveland clinic> Iowa>OSU>UH Clevand (case)> Loyola> UIC

Overall a lot of solid choices for the right applicant.
 
Sorry really late to the reply party in this thread. I am from the Midwest, and interviewed at a lot of these places/ have friends in several of the places mentioned. I ended up matching on the West coast but I have some insight I can share through second hand experience and personal experience with interviews.

Iowa- Seems like a really solid academic program. Friends there like it. One of my current attendings trained there and seemed to like it. I didn't personally interview there.

Beaumont- I have a few friends there and I interviewed there. Really solid training in a community environment. There is a new medical school affiliated (Oakland). Residency is really cushy compared to most, with a lot of awesome moonlighting. Facilities are pretty nice, the hospital is in a wealthy area of the Detroit burbs. I remember people having solid fellowship matches (although most programs can make the same claim). Overall I really liked this place and I actually ranked it above a lot of solid mid tier academic programs. Also the area is pretty fun with regards to living.

Henry Ford- basically the same as with Beaumont. Older facilities. At Least when I interviewed, the moonlighting was at least as good but probably better than Beaumont. More trauma and volume than Beaumont based on it's proximity to Detroit proper.

Loyola- I think you get good training. Got the sense that they work residents really hard, for better or worse. Somewhat formal vibe which wasn't really what I was personally looking for.

UIC- Similar to Loyola, closer proximity to downtown Chicago. Felt a little less formal to me for whatever that's worth.

MCW- I know some current fellows at my program who really liked their training there. I didn't interview there personally.

Cleveland Clinic- I personally felt like the name was more impressive than the program, but there were also some weird things going on with resident morale back when I interviewed, things may be different now. Great exposure to pathology. Facilities are awesome. Cleveland is actually a solid place, with some under the radar cool vibes.

Case UH- I've heard from friends that the volume is pretty high, call can be pretty busy, but you see a lot. Lots of hands on procedure experience. Facilities are solid but not as cushy as Cleveland clinic. I've heard some grumbling that resident morale is low for whatever that's worth.

If you want ample moonlighting and overall quality of life I'd go for Beaumont or Henry Ford. I've heard nothing but solid things, especially if you are planning to practice in the Midwest.

For academic:
Cleveland clinic> Iowa>OSU>UH Clevand (case)> Loyola> UIC

Overall a lot of solid choices for the right applicant.

where do you see HF and Beaumont in the academic rankings? More lower-tier?
 
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where do you see HF and Beaumont in the academic rankings? More lower-tier?

I think it's all relative to a few things, first and foremost I really believe that you have to be happy where you're at, both with regards to your training environment and physical location. If you're unhappy, the best program in the world won't help you much. For me personally I knew I wanted to practice somewhere specific (California) so I ended up prioritizing that when it came time to rank programs. Being close to where you may settle down has so many advantages if it's an especially competitive market. I also thought I may want to practice as an academic, so I weighed my choices accordingly.

All that being said, I actually ranked Beaumont higher than those Midwest academic programs I described above because I had a great vibe on my interview day, knew people there, and knew it was a quality place to be trained. If you imagine yourself practicing in the Midwest, both HF and Beaumont are well known. Especially if you think you will do private practice.

The toughest part of the match for applicants is being really honest with yourself about what you want. And avoiding the FOMO hype surrounding brand names that don't actually fit your own goals or situation. If something feels off at a program, listen to your gut instincts, you'd be surprised how often they're correct.
 
where do you see HF and Beaumont in the academic rankings? More lower-tier?
I wouldn't consider them low tier, more like mid-tier and that is really just because they don't have the big name (although people do know the name). Both seem to provide a lot of support for residents, so you can work as intensively as you'd like. They are in my top 3
 
I wouldn't consider them low tier, more like mid-tier and that is really just because they don't have the big name (although people do know the name). Both seem to provide a lot of support for residents, so you can work as intensively as you'd like. They are in my top 3

sorry, i should clarify that I agree both Beaumont and HF are definitely mid-tier. both are very solid programs. I meant in regard to his list he had above, would he put them lower on that particular list (which is sorting out mid-tier midwest programs).

I think it's all relative to a few things, first and foremost I really believe that you have to be happy where you're at, both with regards to your training environment and physical location. If you're unhappy, the best program in the world won't help you much. For me personally I knew I wanted to practice somewhere specific (California) so I ended up prioritizing that when it came time to rank programs. Being close to where you may settle down has so many advantages if it's an especially competitive market. I also thought I may want to practice as an academic, so I weighed my choices accordingly.

All that being said, I actually ranked Beaumont higher than those Midwest academic programs I described above because I had a great vibe on my interview day, knew people there, and knew it was a quality place to be trained. If you imagine yourself practicing in the Midwest, both HF and Beaumont are well known. Especially if you think you will do private practice.

The toughest part of the match for applicants is being really honest with yourself about what you want. And avoiding the FOMO hype surrounding brand names that don't actually fit your own goals or situation. If something feels off at a program, listen to your gut instincts, you'd be surprised how often they're correct.

you mentioned that training near where you want to end up has so many advantages. do you think this is true even if you can go to a top 5-10 program in another region? it just seems so hard to turn an opportunity like that down, but you make great points in that it may not be worth going elsewhere at all in the long run
 
sorry, i should clarify that I agree both Beaumont and HF are definitely mid-tier. both are very solid programs. I meant in regard to his list he had above, would he put them lower on that particular list (which is sorting out mid-tier midwest programs).



you mentioned that training near where you want to end up has so many advantages. do you think this is true even if you can go to a top 5-10 program in another region? it just seems so hard to turn an opportunity like that down, but you make great points in that it may not be worth going elsewhere at all in the long run

It's all relative to your options locally. If you have a solid local program with a good reputation you probably won't gain a ton of local leverage by going across the country for residency. If you are choosing between a top program and a subpar program locally you may want to think more carefully about your choice, unless you are looking to stay in a super competitive market (Bay-Area, NYC, etc).

The benefit of going to a top 5-10 program is mostly if you're looking for an academic career, you want to leave all doors open, or you are unsure of where you want to settle down. Those are all reasonable things to think about. Just make sure you'd be personally happy with the program (type of environment, training, geographic location...4 years is a long time). I wouldn't compromise a lot to go to a top program somewhere far away that you are not sold on if you have a good option locally and are fairly certain you'd like to stay.
 
Cook county is probably not better than Loyola. They’ve lost a couple residents the past couple years (not sure why, but they post open spots on another radiology forum). Also, I have a friend who did ENT at northwestern and they rotated through cook county. He said he didn’t bother to look at the radiology reports when they were there. He didn’t do the same thing when at northwestern. I never rotated there, though, so maybe it’s better than what I’ve heard.
 
Cook County is lower than Loyola, UIC, or Advocate Masonic. It is a small community program. Residents have to work very hard with less education and almost no research time or opportunity.
 
Cook County is lower than Loyola, UIC, or Advocate Masonic. It is a small community program. Residents have to work very hard with less education and almost no research time or opportunity.

Depends on how you want to rank though right? Cook County has impressive volumes and breadth of pathology that residents get. Plus their residents read faster than any I've seen elsewhere.

Though yes, education and research are eschewed.
 
Depends on how you want to rank though right? Cook County has impressive volumes and breadth of pathology that residents get. Plus their residents read faster than any I've seen elsewhere.

Though yes, education and research are eschewed.

I think most good programs see a lot of varied pathology, but it is good to think about it prior to committing to a program. Speed is something that is also important, but not at the expense of technique and fundamentals when you are just starting your career. From experience, it's been much easier to read faster after being taught how to develop a detailed and efficient search pattern through a lot of workstation teaching, which is invaluable. Now that I've learned to read well (for a resident), I've been able to steadily increase my speed and maintain efficiency. It's a subtle point of learning to be a radiologist that I didn't fully appreciate until starting residency and comparing my experience to friends in other places. Time with attendings at the workstation is super important and actually can be very hard to find.
 
As someone planning on staying in the same city after residency, I agree that you should consider on local connections and local reputation as well as how well they prepare you for practice.

I find it funny that people are just reiterating [insert Chicago program] > Cook County for whatever reason. CC in the past few years has upped their quality having met some of their residents at CRS, and they continue to have a strong reputation within the city. Don't just choose a program that you don't fit in because of arbitrary "prestige" rankings like this if you want to stay local. If it's Northwestern/UChicago, it'll be worth it if you're considering academics. Otherwise, go with your gut. To address the posts above, technically Advocate is community too, and UIC, Peoria, and Loyola might as well be community relative to the real "top" university programs in that they too have "residents who work very hard" without fellows.

Frankly you'll be fine out of any of the other programs in Chicago. If you don't believe me, literally just look at the fellowship match list from all these programs outside of U Chicago/Northwestern. They are almost identical. Choose where you will get solid training and will be happy.
 
The argument for matching a quality fellowship can be made at essentially every institution. Reason why... the ivory towers are the ones with numerous fellowship spots. Most fellowships are non-ACGME (for now), so they if they offer you an interview spot, it’s likely they’ll offer you a fellowship spot.
 
The argument for matching a quality fellowship can be made at essentially every institution. Reason why... the ivory towers are the ones with numerous fellowship spots. Most fellowships are non-ACGME (for now), so they if they offer you an interview spot, it’s likely they’ll offer you a fellowship spot.

Exactly. Medical students tend to make a big deal about "name brand" too much at the residency level, but it is not the end goal. I would argue that if you fit at a certain place, knowing it is where you can succeed and make a good impression at, is the most important factor. And after fit, the connections and local reputation really matter in helping you return to the area (after fellowship) if you want to.

Regarding your comment on Cook County, I would say Cook County is solid in what I think is important as mentioned above, and is at the same level as "academic" places like UIC/Loyola/Peoria. You have a point that Cook County does have two postings on that other forum looking for new residents. One of their openings however was for an R1 spot who had yet to start. I do not think it is fair to put it on the program. They have matched 4/4 in the past few years. And the other R2 spot they're looking to fill? Word on the street is that one of UIC/Loyola/Peoria is also short on one resident as well, not to mention some other community programs in Chicago. It can happen to any program.
 
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Exactly. Medical students tend to make a big deal about "name brand" too much at the residency level, but it is not the end goal. I would argue that if you fit at a certain place, knowing it is where you can succeed and make a good impression at, is the most important factor. And after fit, the connections and local reputation really matter in helping you return to the area (after fellowship) if you want to.

Regarding your comment on Cook County, I would say Cook County is solid in what I think is important as mentioned above, and is at the same level as "academic" places like UIC/Loyola/Peoria. You have a point that Cook County does have two postings on that other forum looking for new residents. One of their openings however was for an R1 spot who had yet to start. I do not think it is fair to put it on the program. They have matched 4/4 in the past few years. And the other R2 spot they're looking to fill? Word on the street is that one of UIC/Loyola/Peoria is also short on one resident as well, not to mention some other community programs in Chicago. It can happen to any program.

Much like radiology and trying to report the significance of an incidental but possibly important finding, I describe what’s going on and leave it at that. My residency had someone leave but immediately fill the spot with a previous med student that wanted to come back to complete residency (left a much more prestigious place). It may be circumstances that aren’t known to the outsiders that may not actually be negatives. So, I don’t know what to say about openings at the cook county program, I can just say that they’re there. I believe UColorado just posted an opening on the other site.

A thing not shown in med school or the match is that life happens and sometimes people leave their positions because of that (usually some surgery intern switching to something like radiology). It happens much more often than people think and it’s usually not for malignant reasons.

The real red flags are people that are obviously unhappy when you’re there on interview, multiple board failure years, or you just not fitting the culture of the place.
 
Just to emphasize it even more, I feel like this may be one of the most important factors for training, both in becoming a great radiologist and feeling professionally validated. Having attendings who willingly teach you makes such a huge difference in how I perceive my work as a resident. I am super lucky, I hope others also have the same opportunities.
 
I wouldn't consider them low tier, more like mid-tier and that is really just because they don't have the big name (although people do know the name). Both seem to provide a lot of support for residents, so you can work as intensively as you'd like. They are in my top 3

Beaumont and Henry Ford both heavily filled with internal applicants this year it seems. The word is out, they are getting more competitive. Several people on the trail seemed to have interviewed there and said they were going to rank them high. I did not interview at Henry Ford sadly but I was really impressed by Beaumont.
 
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So, I'm from the midwest and interviewed at pretty much every academic institution in the midwest (where I want to stay) except I didn't apply to the Detroit programs and I didn't get a NW interview.

I was blown away by getting interviews at places like Michigan, MIR, and Mayo, but in the end, I went with MCW as my #1, Wisconsin #2, Indiana #3, Iowa #4, Minnesota #5. It honestly mostly boiled down to feel for me. I didn't feel that any of the programs I interviewed at were particularly "weak" or "concerning" from an academic standpoint (except a few outside the Midwest), and I had no concerns that I would get great training at any of the places I interviewed. I will give you some highlights from the names you mentioned.

MCW: I ranked this #1. I was anticipating on putting Wisconsin at 1 based on strength of program and my time there, but honestly MCW blew me away on interview day. The residents were amazingly friendly and fun, the PD is a kind person who was delightful to talk to, and the opportunities in IR and peds are insane, plus they're very clinical in their body rotation. The program treats their residents extremely well as far as reimbursement, AIRP funding, moonlighting, etc. go. It's very, very clear they care about their residents, they have a good name in the midwest with great fellowship placement beyond, but so many of the residents don't want to leave that a lot of them stay for fellowship, which was frankly a very good sign for me. Residents gushed about their training and the breadth of exposure, experience on call. I could go on forever.

Indiana: Amazing interview day with great residents, incredible PD, impressive showing (buying coffee on walking tour, beautiful campus, paying for hotel, etc.). I think this is an amazing program and it was my #1 for most of my interview trail. Just did all the little things right, and the PD was probably the most resident-advocate PD I met on my interview trail. The class is big, which is a plus for me, and the residents were cohesive and extremely welcoming. I would've received fantastic training if I had been lucky enough to match there!

Case vs. CCF: Honestly, I and most of my classmates who interviewed at CCF felt it to be a bit... off? The residents didn't seem as happy, the pre-interview presentation seemed like a lot of "we have $$$$$$$$" but no real specifics as to how we could benefit from any of that, and a ton of bragging (which I did NOT get at MIR, Michigan). Some very strange interview questions. Case was much friendlier and honestly seemed like a really solid academic program with residents who were a blast.

Iowa: Iowa has REALLY happy residents and REALLY solid clinical training. I think they're an overlooked program in terms of prestige due to location, but if you like cool, trendy college towns, Iowa City is neat. The PD is a funny guy and I loved my interview day there. I loved my interviews with the residents - probably my favorite interviews of the trail.

Minnesota: Interviewed here during an ice storm where it took everyone like hours to cross a few miles in the city, so the whole day was discombobulated and it was hard to get a good feel for it. That said, the PD is an enjoyable lady who is clearly a resident advocate, and I liked the residents as a whole. I felt it was still a solid program, though I disagree with the poster who said Iowa = Minnesota. I feel that Iowa is definitely a step above Minnesota, but that Minnesota is still really good training.

Cincinnati: Home program. PD is the kindest soul on this Earth, loves his residents, and the residents are well-trained and well-prepared to go wherever. I can attest to that. I worked with a few who were going on to Duke for body, which is incredible body fellowship. I recommend checking it out, but I'm biased! You won't find better pediatric rads training or attendings anywhere in the country, I'm fairly confident of that. Not much else to say - the program is great. I fell in love with rads here, so that says it all.

OSU: Another gem of a PD, loved that attendings I met. Residents were pretty cool. I felt they were very strong academically and would get me to where I want to go if I went there. They are very focused on AI and the advancement of technology in the field, I think they were the strongest in that aspect of my interview trail. If you're interested in that stuff, DEFINITELY check out an Ohio State University.

U Chicago: I don't think this is even fair to put at "mid-tier". I know dozens of people who ranked UIC > NW due to vibe and the fact that UIC is BARELY a "step down" from top tier midwest places. The PD is strange but his residents LOVE him, and honestly he had the best, most succinct, "this is what we will do for you" presentation on interview day. Truly impressed. LOVED the residents. If I didn't hate Chicago, I would've put it higher. I think you will see UIC move up the rankings in the next few years, they very much gave off a "prestigious" vibe.

Didn't interview at SLU, heard strange things from a friend who did but know another friend who loved it there. Not sure how they are viewed prestige wise.

tl;dr: Please message me with any questions you have about the interview trail, especially in the Midwest, where I interviewed extensively. I'm an open book and wish I had honest resources on my journey, so I'll gladly be one for you all.
 
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UIC and UChicago are actually different programs.
 
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