mid-tier schools that should be given fair consideration

[wetlightning]

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oh, and i'm from TN, go to school in NC, and my parents live in houston.

NC is the south. it is definitely the south. no questions asked.

here's a litmus test: can you get real, sweet, sweet tea? then you're in the south.

 

[unfrozencaveman]

"...located in rustic, yet scenic Boone, North Carolina, ASU has for years been considered by many to be the "Brown of the South", due to it's relative obscurity compared to the other higher echelon colleges of the South, such as Duke and Troy State..."


Taken off their website, I swear.

Yeah that is very accurate. In fact, on Brown's website, they claim to be the Appalachian State of the North.

 

[PhotoMD]

Then what's low-tier?

 

[tigress]

Yeah that is very accurate. In fact, on Brown's website, they claim to be the Appalachian State of the North.

 

[diosa428]

Huh??? You just said that both people from north and south, agree that NC is in the south.

No I didn't. Read it again.

 

[roboyce]

Erica,

I would consider Wake Forest. It has an increasingly growing reputation and lacks the cuthroat environment and arrogance you might find at more "elite" schools. It models it curriculum on the Harvard PBL, even though they won't tell you that. The school is very adpative to technology and makes sure their students are familiar with it as well. I know many of the professors there and they are really dedicated to working with the students. I haven't met many of the "old guard" types that tend to be more resistant.

Winston-Salem is not the most exciting town (I grew up there), but the city is very supportive of the medical school and university. In fact, the med center is the largest employer in the area. It's a quiet town, somewhat of a relic from the tobacco boom days, but they recently revitalized downtown to attract more young people to the city.

On a separate note, to the rest of you, North Carolina, and hence Duke, is very much in the south. Sure, if you visited Duke, you may have spent some time in the "bubble" that is the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel-Hill area, but did you ever get beyond that? Must I remind you that not only do we celebrate MLK day, but it is a dual holiday as it is also Robert E. Lee's birthday. No kidding. Oh yeah, we used to have a senator named Jesse Helms. Maybe you remember him? He voted against every civil rights amendment and still stands by his decision...unfortunately, he'd probably win reelection if he was healthy enough to run. Then there's Charlotte Motor Speedway...need I say more? I've hiked most of the trails in NC and I can tell you that many people in the mountains still lack running water and telephones.

Don't get me wrong, I love NC, but it is and forever will be in the south.

 

[wetlightning]

roboyce,

i agree with you. i'm a wake undergrad right now. but i wouldn't call it a 'mid-tier' med school, would you? it's ranked around number 40 pretty consistently. of course, its mcat average is not as high as some other top 50 schools....

anyway, yes, wake would be an interesting choice to add to your list. i, personally, would not want to stick around in winston-salem for another 4 years, but the school itself is excellent.

 

[roboyce]

roboyce,

i agree with you. i'm a wake undergrad right now. but i wouldn't call it a 'mid-tier' med school, would you? it's ranked around number 40 pretty consistently. of course, its mcat average is not as high as some other top 50 schools....

I thought about that...I don't mean to insult the med school or anybody there. But I think if you were looking for a place that did not fit the mold or attitude of one of the "elites," but still gave you a great education, then Wake probably fits the mold. Like I said, I think their stock has been going up the last ten years or so, but I don't think they're attracting the 4.0/35+ people just yet. I guess I mentioned it because I think alot of people don't know too much about the school, especially outside the south. I'm applying there, but it's not a top choice as, like you, I don't relish the idea of another four years in W-S.

 

[tigress]

roboyce,

i agree with you. i'm a wake undergrad right now. but i wouldn't call it a 'mid-tier' med school, would you? it's ranked around number 40 pretty consistently. of course, its mcat average is not as high as some other top 50 schools....

I think most people would consider a rank of 40 mid-tier. That's about what we're shooting for here, I'd guess: sort of between ranks 35 or 50 and (if they were all ranked) about 70 or 80. It's too hard to quantify, of course! And probably complete meaningless

 

[bwells46]

i had to email the dean to get an interview. its a really good school! i recommend putting jeff on your list.

I don't get it. Did you email the dean and ask to be interviewed?

 

[Medikit]

Like I said, I think their stock has been going up the last ten years or so, but I don't think they're attracting the 4.0/35+ people just yet.

This is probably why I liked Wake Forest so much.

I think a part of it has to do with financial aid packages. There are a few people given full rides to Wake but they don't really spread the money around to anyone else. There have been a few people on SDN who cited lack of financial aid as a reason for choosing another school.

 

[drbraxton]

Why is this suddenly a "What is the Harvard of the South" thread? The OP asked about middle ranked schools. The Harvard of the south is obviously Washington University in St. Louis by the way. Missouri may not be the deep south like Alabama or something, but I'm sure most people who live there consider it to be in the south.

just so we all know our geography before we make anymore ridiculous posts i have included a link to a map of the US.

PS. us southerners dont include MO as a southern state.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/united_states/territory.jpg

 

[gujuDoc]

just so we all know our geography before we make anymore ridiculous posts i have included a link to a map of the US.

PS. us southerners dont include MO as a southern state.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/united_states/territory.jpg

Ha! I'm with you. Missouri is the MIDWEST, for anyone needing a geography lesson. So the HMS of the Midwest would be Wash U, and of the south it would be Duke/Emory.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Having gone to Duke, I can assure you we are labeled (derogatorily) as the Harvard of the South and/or Princeton of the South. At least by my relatives and UNC fans, anyway. NC is as southern as you get. VA, too, except towards DC. Lest anyone forget, Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy, and having lived in VA, I promise it is very Southern. I'd say that the South ends somewhere between Richmond and DC.

For the topic at hand, I would definitely agree that Wake Forest is a "mid-tier" school, should there be such a category. Maybe Tulane, Georgetown in there, too? They're definitely not Duke/H/Y/WashU caliber, but better than a lot of state schools.

 

[45408]

On a more serious note:

Penn State and Med Coll Wisconsin seem to take a lot of CA folks, and fit the "mid tier" bill, more or less...

yeah, a very large portion of MCW's out-of-staters are from CA.

 

[ABK44]

Thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!! Someone who recognizes NC for the fact that it IS a SOUTHERN STATE.

I went to college in North Carolina and I now live in east TN, and believe me, NC is very much a southern state... and the people there would probably be surprised to hear anyone question the subject. Actually, being pretty familiar with the area and all, it's kind of funny to see it being discussed like this, since, when I was there, it was very obvious that you were in the south, surrounded by all things southern.

There might be some regional southern-culture divisions, though. I'm not sure. I was primarily exposed to western and central NC, so I can't speak with any certainty about eastern NC.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

 

[Medikit]

just so we all know our geography before we make anymore ridiculous posts i have included a link to a map of the US.

PS. us southerners dont include MO as a southern state.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/united_states/territory.jpg

tacrum is from California, we do our best. You don't realize how confusing these things are for us. When I was in Wisconson I kept talking about how cool it was to be in the eastern united states and everyone kept correcting me and would tell me that I was in fact in the mid-west.

I actually had a conversation during my Wake interview about the whole East vs. West thing. My interviewer decided that the west actually begins in western portion of North Carolina because that was the beginning of Daniel Boone's exploration. As a descendent of Daniel Boone what could I do but agree?

 

[hnbui]

Everyone knows that rice is the Harvard of the South.....

BTW NC and MO are both southern states. I'm from the deep south and people around here still considers them states up yonder, southern.

 

[Medikit]

Here are some maps to illustrate a couple different ways of looking at the United States


The United States Census Bureau:

KEY:
TEAL: The Western United States
RED: The Mid-Western United States
GREY: The Southern United States
BLUE: The Eastern United States


The Annotated Californian:

KEY:
TEAL: The West, this is us!
RED: The Mid-West or the middle. Colorado has good skiing and like umm Oklahoma is totally shaped like a pot!
GREY: The South, this is where the dixie cup was invented. People talk funny.
BLUE: The East, why would people live here and not in California? I went to New York once, people there talk funny too.
ORANGE: Texas and Florida, aren't like both of their governors named Bush? Why would someone retire in Florida when they can retire in Santa Monica?
YELLOW: The Snout!

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Whenever someone mentions the South I immediately think about that kid from the movie Deliverance. You know. The inbred looking one playing the banjo. I heard that they put him in the movie after he wandered onto the set and just kept staring.

Other representations of the south in Deliverance: A hillbilly yelling at Jon Voigt, "That one's got a pretty mouth ain't she." And the other hillbilly yellin at the fat guy he's about to plow, "Squeal like a piggy, squeal like a piggy, soooiiieee!" After watching that movie, I'm staying clear of those Ozarks.

 

[Flopotomist]

I can agree with Emory and Vanderbilt, but I agree with Brett on Duke. NC is more of an eastern state in geography and culture. I consider Southern states to be more like texas, tennessee, arkansas, georgia, etc. More hick like. I am from the way South and I would never consider NC in the southern category.

I guess I never really considered Tulane as Ivy either, but I would say it is a good mid tier school. Vandy, Emory, and Duke are all more high tier schools. Creighton is another viable option. In Omaha I believe. You could see the NCAA Baseball World Series every year!

Sorry - I gotta say that having lived in Georgia, NC is definately still Southern. South is defined as anywhere you can get sweet tea in a McDonalds (except Texas, as we all know Texas is its own category.)

 

[wetlightning]

South is defined as anywhere you can get sweet tea in a McDonalds (except Texas, as we all know Texas is its own category.)

i mentioned sweet tea in my qualification too!!! 👍

 

[Law2Doc]

Just being difficult, but Duke is not 4 anymore

Yes, not that it matters at all, but Duke is currently ranked #6, not #4 in US News' rankings. (Penn is #4)...
I'm sure that will change everyone's application patterns drastically. 🙂

 

[KNightInBlue]

Whenever someone mentions the South I immediately think about that kid from the movie Deliverance. You know. The inbred looking one playing the banjo. I heard that they put him in the movie after he wandered onto the set and just kept staring.

Other representations of the south in Deliverance: A hillbilly yelling at Jon Voigt, "That one's got a pretty mouth ain't she." And the other hillbilly yellin at the fat guy he's about to plow, "Squeal like a piggy, squeal like a piggy, soooiiieee!" After watching that movie, I'm staying clear of those Ozarks.

LMAO!!

I am with you on the hillbilly/redneck phenomenon. However, the movie that really disturbed me was Texas Chainsaw Massacre (the latest one, with Jessica Biel). Granted it had the same plot as other teen slasher flicks whereby a bunch of ppl are out for a good ole' time and BAM!!! a disfigured psycho starts lopping off body parts, somehow this movie really bothered me. So much so that I vowed NEVER to venture into the backwaters/boondocks of any and all southern states lest I run into leatherface or other inbred hillbillies.

Then again, the plot of the movie was located in Texas, which like Flopotomist mentioned above, is in a whole other category by itself.

 

[scooter31]

I consider Bakersfield to be The South of the West.
Accordingly, the Research Triangle is the East of the South, while Mizzourah is the South of the Midwest. 😎

 

[rugirlie]

Yes, not that it matters at all, but Duke is currently ranked #6, not #4 in US News' rankings. (Penn is #4)...
I'm sure that will change everyone's application patterns drastically. 🙂

Don't only partially quote me... thanks..... I then posted that I consider all top ten schools equally amazing

 

[Law2Doc]

Don't only partially quote me... thanks..... I then posted that I consider all top ten schools equally amazing

Sorry -- I was agreeing with you.

 

[rugirlie]

Sorry -- I was agreeing with you.

You were....?? that sounded like unveiled sarcasm to me... my mistake.

 

[63768]

Everyone knows that rice is the Harvard of the South.....

thank you. haha.

 

[getunconcsious]

Ummm....Everyone knows that THERE IS NO IVY OF THE SOUTH!!!! Duh! There are only eight ivy league schools and they are in the north because the south sucks. These include Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, Brown, Dartmouth, and Cornell. Notice there is no Emory, Vanderbilt, Stanford, or Rice in this list! Yes that's right folks, if you don't go to those first eight schools I'm sorry to inform you that your school sucks! There are 8 good and 4,058 crappy schools in the nation, and none of the good ones are in the south (or the midwest or the west). Sorry!

Anyways, a good mid-tier medical school is UT-Houston! They accept as many as 2 people from out-of-state every year and who wouldn't want to live in BEAUTIFUL, EXCITING, HOUSTON, TEXAS?!?

 

[nlyoung]

Ummm....Everyone knows that THERE IS NO IVY OF THE SOUTH!!!! Duh! There are only eight ivy league schools and they are in the north because the south sucks. These include Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, Brown, Dartmouth, and Cornell. Notice there is no Emory, Vanderbilt, Stanford, or Rice in this list! Yes that's right folks, if you don't go to those first eight schools I'm sorry to inform you that your school sucks! There are 8 good and 4,058 crappy schools in the nation, and none of the good ones are in the south (or the midwest or the west). Sorry!

Anyways, a good mid-tier medical school is UT-Houston! They accept as many as 2 people from out-of-state every year and who wouldn't want to live in BEAUTIFUL, EXCITING, HOUSTON, TEXAS?!?

Please tell me you're kidding! Vandy's scores and placements are every bit as good as the Ivy League schools.... and what better place to be than Nashville! (granted, it IS my hometown). Someone is just trying to get attention by posting asinine comments.....

 

[gujuDoc]

Please tell me you're kidding! Vandy's scores and placements are every bit as good as the Ivy League schools.... and what better place to be than Nashville! (granted, it IS my hometown). Someone is just trying to get attention by posting asinine comments.....

Getunconscious,

First off, saying "IVY of the SOUTH" is a figure of statement not to be taken literally. They just meant the most prestigous schools that are in the south.

Second off, schools like Duke, Vandy, Emory, Baylor, and Rice, are...........

quite prestigous schools.

So I hope you are kidding in your posts.

 

[getunconcsious]

Someone is just trying to get attention by posting asinine comments.....

Um, DUH! That's pretty much what i've done since i came to SDN.

But seriously, this whole "ivy of the south" argument is stupid as hell and has hijacked the whole point of this thread.

 

[gujuDoc]

Um, DUH! That's pretty much what i've done since i came to SDN.

But seriously, this whole "ivy of the south" argument is stupid as hell and has hijacked the whole point of this thread.

hahahahaha!!!!

I guess you are right. I'll try to reread the op's request and post a response to it.

But that's how most SDN threads roll, they go from one conversation and jump to the next.

I.E. Thread about lying to get into med school. Starts with tales of lies, and goes to talks of languages.

 

[Centinel]

Ummm....Everyone knows that THERE IS NO IVY OF THE SOUTH!!!! Duh! There are only eight ivy league schools and they are in the north because the south sucks. These include Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, Brown, Dartmouth, and Cornell. Notice there is no Emory, Vanderbilt, Stanford, or Rice in this list! Yes that's right folks, if you don't go to those first eight schools I'm sorry to inform you that your school sucks! There are 8 good and 4,058 crappy schools in the nation, and none of the good ones are in the south (or the midwest or the west). Sorry!

Anyways, a good mid-tier medical school is UT-Houston! They accept as many as 2 people from out-of-state every year and who wouldn't want to live in BEAUTIFUL, EXCITING, HOUSTON, TEXAS?!?

[Edit: Tigress is so right. My humor meter = missing today. Am calling secret witness to see if anyone knows where it might be.]

 

[tigress]

um, why did so many people think getunconcsious was being serious? 🙄

BTW NC and MO are both southern states. I'm from the deep south and people around here still considers them states up yonder, southern.

I'm from the south too, and like I said before, while there are parts of NC that definitely feel like the south, growing up if somebody had asked me to name the southern states, I would not have thought of NC. I mean this whole argument isn't important. But obviously there are regional differences in what is considered the South. My husband is from NY, and he thinks Maryland is the South, whereas I would never consider it to be. And many people go by Civil War dividing lines, while others go by culture. And if you ask somebody in Mississipi to define the south, you'll get a different answer than if you ask somebody in Virginia or NC.

eh, who cares anyway? (obviously I do since I'm posting here...I guess a better question would be "why do I care?" )

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

I'm so tired of stressing over AMCAS and verification and secondaries. This thread has turned into a much-needed laugh for me. So... as a student of Southern culture, here's my two cents:

The mistake I see is that we're assuming that the South follows state lines. Not really - the borders in the North and West are poorly defined, I think. If I know anything, I know more about my corner of the South.

North Carolina is always part of the South. So are Tennessee and Kentucky. Virginia is part of the South. West Virginia is not part of the South, and that's why West Virginia was created.

Missouri is an in/out state. St. Louis and Kansas City are definitely mid-Western cities. The southern part of Missouri is definitely in the South - think Branson. Dividing line: roughly in the middle. Clue: If a state resident says "Missour-EE", they're likely mid-Western. If they say "Missour-AH", they're pure Southern.

Oklahoma is never part of the mid-West. Tulsa is a terrific city, lots of old oil money, and quite Southern. I'd pick Tulsa as the northwestern corner of the South. Oklahoma City has a more Southwestern feel. Dividing line: the Cross Timbers dividing east from west, roughly I-35.

Texas - same thing. Dallas is part of the South, as is everything east of Dallas. Atlanta is the Southern Capital, but I think Dallas is the "second city." West Texas has nothing to do with the South. Dividing line: I-35 (I-35E, not I-35W!).

And I agree, sweet tea is the house wine of the South.

 

[dilated]

On a more serious note:

Penn State and Med Coll Wisconsin seem to take a lot of CA folks, and fit the "mid tier" bill, more or less...

With Penn State, you need to consider if you can survive 4 years in Hershey. I sure couldn't, which is a shame because otherwise the school seemed kind of nice.

 

[GiantGiantsFan]

pittsburgh is a nice school....although im not sure if that falls within your definition of "midtier."

 

[DrBowtie]

To the OP:
Most of the mid-tier schools are public state schools hence it is usually harder to get in from OOS. I suggest you hit up many of the private schools in the mid tier as well as publics that accept >25% OOS.

 

[getunconcsious]

I think the answer to the OP's original question depends largely on how (s)he defines 'mid-tier'. Personally, I define it as those schools ranked from 21-60 by USNews. This may seem arbitrary to some people, but that's just how I personally look at it. That's why I (albeit somewhat facetiously) brought up UT-Houston (#55). I suppose that if you are a California resident (my best guess, given that you go to stanford) then UCSD, UC-Davis, and UC-Irvine would all fall into this category.

 

[Peterock]

Duke is not southern. I'm sorry, but it really isn't. You can claim that Duke is in the South, but it is not a southern place and it's students are not southern.

Case in point, I knew two different girls at Duke who had southern accents. I distinctly remember the majority of the classrooms laughing and smirking at them when they'd ask questoins etc. Some people went as far as to talk to them as children. I was pretty much horrified at the arrogance of someone with (what I consider an abrasive) NE accent picking on a person for having a southern accent in tobacco country, but wtf. It's Duke - a big neogothic bubble full of northeasterners and people from CA/FL.

I have gotten so spoiled that at UNC's 2nd look weekend I started getting irritated when some of the speakers kept saying "Schoo of medicine". WTF? WHERE IS THE L, god damnit!!!

In general NC is a mix of regions in the cities and then flat out southern in the rural areas.

-----

OP's question:

I think mid-tier schools that are pretty cool: Loyola, Wake Forest, and VCU.

 

[exmike]

I think the answer to the OP's original question depends largely on how (s)he defines 'mid-tier'. Personally, I define it as those schools ranked from 21-60 by USNews. This may seem arbitrary to some people, but that's just how I personally look at it. That's why I (albeit somewhat facetiously) brought up UT-Houston (#55). I suppose that if you are a California resident (my best guess, given that you go to stanford) then UCSD, UC-Davis, and UC-Irvine would all fall into this category.

if there are ~125 med schools shouldn't mid tier be around 40-80?

 

[DrBowtie]

Most would say it isn't an equal distribution within the tiers.
I.E 1-20 top 20-60 mid 60-~125 bottom

 

[KCtoMedSchool]

I'm so tired of stressing over AMCAS and verification and secondaries. This thread has turned into a much-needed laugh for me. So... as a student of Southern culture, here's my two cents:

The mistake I see is that we're assuming that the South follows state lines. Not really - the borders in the North and West are poorly defined, I think. If I know anything, I know more about my corner of the South.

North Carolina is always part of the South. So are Tennessee and Kentucky. Virginia is part of the South. West Virginia is not part of the South, and that's why West Virginia was created.

Missouri is an in/out state. St. Louis and Kansas City are definitely mid-Western cities. The southern part of Missouri is definitely in the South - think Branson. Dividing line: roughly in the middle. Clue: If a state resident says "Missour-EE", they're likely mid-Western. If they say "Missour-AH", they're pure Southern.

Oklahoma is never part of the mid-West. Tulsa is a terrific city, lots of old oil money, and quite Southern. I'd pick Tulsa as the northwestern corner of the South. Oklahoma City has a more Southwestern feel. Dividing line: the Cross Timbers dividing east from west, roughly I-35.

Texas - same thing. Dallas is part of the South, as is everything east of Dallas. Atlanta is the Southern Capital, but I think Dallas is the "second city." West Texas has nothing to do with the South. Dividing line: I-35 (I-35E, not I-35W!).

And I agree, sweet tea is the house wine of the South.

Being from Kansas City, MO, your outlook on Missouri makes sense. I think once you're south of 1-70 towards the Ozarks, towards Branson or in the Boothill area, Missouri is definitely southern. St. Louis is a purely mid-western city as is Kansas City although KC is a lot more country and has more of a southern feel than St. Louis.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

In actuality only law schools have the tier system. If you go to a top tier law school you have the best chance for certain upscale law firms and judicial clerkships, and its a must if you want an academic career and be a faculty member of any law school. Law school tiers are well-defined.

Not so with med schools. US news rankings are weighed heavily toward research funding, not educational quality. You don't have to go to a high-ranked med school to get into a high-ranked residency. People who graduate from any med school have the same opportunities to pursue academic careers and faculty positions, as long as their board scores are high.

Law doesn't have any standardized tests to differentiate between law students. Neither does business school. Only medicine with the USMLE does.

A person with a USMLE score of 260 from University of North Dakota medical school has a much better chance to go to MGH for neurosurgery than someone with a 210 from Harvard. The Harvard 210 might not match in neurosurgery at all.

But if you went to Harvard Law and nearly failed you have first crack at any job/clerkship than anyone from North Dakota law, no matter how much smarter North Dakota is.

Any tiers people assign to med schools is just premed speculation based on their perceptions of prestige.

Tiers are moot in the medical world.

 

[drbraxton]

um, why did so many people think getunconcsious was being serious? 🙄



I'm from the south too, and like I said before, while there are parts of NC that definitely feel like the south, growing up if somebody had asked me to name the southern states, I would not have thought of NC. I mean this whole argument isn't important. But obviously there are regional differences in what is considered the South. My husband is from NY, and he thinks Maryland is the South, whereas I would never consider it to be. And many people go by Civil War dividing lines, while others go by culture. And if you ask somebody in Mississipi to define the south, you'll get a different answer than if you ask somebody in Virginia or NC.

eh, who cares anyway? (obviously I do since I'm posting here...I guess a better question would be "why do I care?" )

there is a difference in being "from the south" and being "southern". and us southerners definitely include NC in the list of southern states and we dont really have to think of the list because we either have family in the southern states or because our great grandparents road down in cover wagons from the southern states to the deep dirty south--- peace out

 

[tigress]

there is a difference in being "from the south" and being "southern". and us southerners definitely include NC in the list of southern states and we dont really have to think of the list because we either have family in the southern states or because our great grandparents road down in cover wagons from the southern states to the deep dirty south--- peace out

okay, sorry to mince words -- I'm SOUTHERN, and proud of it. And yes, as long as my family has lived in the US (over a century; maybe not long by your standards) we've lived in the SOUTH. 🙄 (btw, I was echoing somebody I quoted who said "I'm from the deep south"; since I don't know what people consider the "deep south" around here, I didn't use the same words)

Re: Tiers: I think the tier system was actually started for colleges, in US News. Law2Doc is entirely right, there are no tiers for med school. My own thought is that people like to use the idea because they get used to it when thinking about colleges early on.

edit: It's funny how this becomes a contest over who's "more southern." Do you really care?

 

[DrRads101]

I lived in NC for 3 years. You can get sweet, sweet tea on every corner, most people have southern accents, the cafeteria at UNC surved fried okra and catfish, and there is a relative lack of street lighting and urban planning (i.e., roads are not on a grid and even major freeways have pretty much no lighting).

NC is as "Southern" as you get. And this was all in the Triangle, which is supposedly "not Southern" by those that for some reason want to think it is not.