Midlevels in the PM&R field?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

billydoc

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
555
Reaction score
1
Hey All!
Just wondering if PM&R field is also drying up due to use of midlevels. I guess more specifically by NPs since they can pretty much practice and biil independently. But please....I just want to hear from some of you who have the first hand knowledge, and are either practicing, or about to start. Spare me all the dramma and pi$$ing contest. I've been an RN myself for almost 17 years, but still going to med school with firm desire to get in PM&R, and I have learned a thing or two about "us" and "them" folks.

Thanks in advance.
 
our local pm+r group of 5 physicians has 2 pa's. they do lots of office consults and hospital coverage but no procedures of any kind.
it's basically hospitalist scut( admission h+p's, daily rounds/orders,after hours call questions/coverage, discharge summaries). they are not well paid (range 65-80k) but they all seem to enjoy their work. the docs like having them as it frees up time for them to do more procedures.
 
Mid-levels can be a real asset in a busy rehab practice--especially with respect to inpatient practice. I don't think that their work is killing the field, in fact it is probably helping keep it alive more than anything else!
 
pardon me for being naive. Can you explain how these PAs are keeping the practices alive. I haven't graduated medical school yet, but have a unquenching thirst to learn about the practice of medicine (instead of just the science). In my naive way of thinking, I still see PTs and others doing similar work to what PMRs do (I know that PMRs can manage the medical side of the patient as well). I also see Orthopods and others doing similar procedures or seeing similar types of patients than PMRs do. I am very inexperienced in this area, so all I can do is ask questions. It just seems like such a saturated area to me.
 
pardon me for being naive. Can you explain how these PAs are keeping the practices alive. I haven't graduated medical school yet, but have a unquenching thirst to learn about the practice of medicine (instead of just the science). In my naive way of thinking, I still see PTs and others doing similar work to what PMRs do (I know that PMRs can manage the medical side of the patient as well). I also see Orthopods and others doing similar procedures or seeing similar types of patients than PMRs do. I am very inexperienced in this area, so all I can do is ask questions. It just seems like such a saturated area to me.

It has to do with the general financing and reimbursement for health care services. Basically, non-procedurally oriented physiatrists work primarily off of Evaluation and Management (E&M) professional codes. If you're a surgeon or other kind of proceduralist, the evaluation and management of a patient is typically "bundled" into the global fee for a procedure's CPT (current procedural terminology) code. Thus, your economic incentive to manage non-operative medical issues is exceedingly low...

Initial evaluation, consults, and hospital admissions are reimbursed more highly because of the higher complexity inherent in the delivery of these services. Subsequent visits (either outpatient, inpatient, or consult) are reimbursed far more meagerly because these services usually entail assessing and monitoring response to treatment. Thus, in any busy practice, the goal is to keep physicians engaged in more complex service delivery (new evals and procedures) and mid-levels engaged in the more routine service delivery (follow-ups). Under some circumstances, midlevels can "tee-up" new evals, but the reimbursement for delivery of this service will be at a lower level.

This is the reason why you hear primary care physicians (whose job it is to provide longitudinal and preventive care) complain that they're getting short-changed for their services under the current system of health care financing...once their practice panels "fill-up," all they have are subsequent visit E&M codes to charge unless they do procedures. Health care executives who employ salaried physicians and other health care providers in group practices exploit the E&M service gap by employing mid-levels for primary care (Why pay a primary physician $150K when you can pay a PA $80K and collect essentially the same revenue for their service?). Similarly, you're seeing more mid-levels on surgical and medical consult services for the same reason. Keep the MD/DO's engaged in high end service delivery (either new consults, procedures, or in the OR) and have mid-levels do the more routine follow-up. In academic settings, the incentives are different because resident house-staff are always the cheapest labor available. Why pay a PA $80K when you can pay a resident $40K and have complete and unfettered control over them??

PT's don't directly compete with physiatrists for service delivery, but they do compete in some states with physiatrists for patient access to therapy services. Physiatrists don't personally administer therapy for patients (except those who use manual medicine and there are special CPT codes and modifers for that). Hence, you'll hear PT's advocate for "direct access," and physiatrists advocate for medically-supervised therapy. It's a story as old as time...

Does that help??
 
haha.. that was great! thanks for the info!!
 
In academic settings, the incentives are different because resident house-staff are always the cheapest labor available. Why pay a PA $80K when you can pay a resident $40K and have complete and unfettered control over them??


Good post overall, but let me just point out that residency programs pay ZERO for residents. Its absolutely free labor, courtesy of Medicare GME funding.

In fact most hospitals earn a profit off residents.
 
Good post overall, but let me just point out that residency programs pay ZERO for residents. Its absolutely free labor, courtesy of Medicare GME funding.

In fact most hospitals earn a profit off residents.

Mac,

I'm happy to learn that you read the PM&R forum as often as I read the Anesthesiology forum! :laugh:
 
Dr. Drusso! Thank you very much for taking the time out to post. It's a great info. I guess PM&R is not under any immediate thread like IM/FP due to the procedures being done at the doctoral level. I'm wondering if NP/PA are allowed to do any of the procedures in PM&R with doc being on site?

Thanks
 
Dr. Drusso! Thank you very much for taking the time out to post. It's a great info. I guess PM&R is not under any immediate thread like IM/FP due to the procedures being done at the doctoral level. I'm wondering if NP/PA are allowed to do any of the procedures in PM&R with doc being on site?

Thanks

depends on the practice. I know of practices on the east coast that allow the pa's to do a large # of the "bread and butter type" office procedures( trigger point injections, etc).
 
depends on the practice. I know of practices on the east coast that allow the pa's to do a large # of the "bread and butter type" office procedures( trigger point injections, etc).

Other than trigger points, joint injections, and pump refills what other office procedures are there.....EMG's?

Most primary care docs are already doing trigger points and joint injections.
 
Other than trigger points, joint injections, and pump refills what other office procedures are there.....EMG's?

Most primary care docs are already doing trigger points and joint injections.

I know this as well. But the reimbursement for the FP doing TrP is probably less than the specialty. Heck, I do TrP release (albeit dry needling) as just a licensed acupuncturist :meanie:. But it's really difficult to protect any one specialty's turf these days. Very often neorology and gas, asp those with pain training do the same work as PM&R. I wonder if that area is saturated?
 
Other than trigger points, joint injections, and pump refills what other office procedures are there.....EMG's?

Most primary care docs are already doing trigger points and joint injections.

agree- I do these in the e.d. as well.
just trying to answer the procedure question with regards to pm+r and midlevels
 
Other than trigger points, joint injections, and pump refills what other office procedures are there.....EMG's?

Most primary care docs are already doing trigger points and joint injections.

It all depends on the practice: EMG's, chemoneurolysis (botox), fluoro-guided procedures, it can be highly variable. Also, many physiatrists do medico-legal work and IME's which require MD/DO evaluation. There are any number of ways that mid-levels can function as "extenders" in a busy practice.
 
Top