Military Demanding More Years

[DirtDocMD]

Navy doctors and dentists are told they owe 3 more years of service after military admits to another record-keeping error

Dozens of military doctors and dentists preparing for retirement owe at least three more years of service because of record-keeping errors, the Navy said Friday — the second time in a week that military officials have publicly admitted to discovering administrative oversights that have derailed...

www.yahoo.com

Anybody (or know anybody) caught up in this?? Sounds like a real cluster…

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[pgg]

There's a thread about it in the milmed forum

Watch out...

Time owed / time credited has always been a bizarrely complicated issue. Internship doesn't incur obligation, but it doesn't repay anything. Residency incurs obligation while simultaneously paying off medical school obligation. Unless you have a civilian deferment, then the clock pauses on both. Fellowship incurs sequential obligation except if you have a preciously signed contract extension, in which case it's concurrent. Years spent on active duty in uniform in medical school at USUHS don't count toward pay or retirement, until after you retire, and then they're added to the pay multiplier calculation.

I knew several people over the years who had done the math wrong, and even have confirmation of the bad math from military authorities, but we're later told Oops that's wrong, you actually owe ____. The argument is that the law is the law and the servicemember's mistake or a clerk's mistake don't trump the law. It's the individual's responsibility to get it right.

Pay is frequently screwed up. Similarly no recourse when things are fixed. The year I got out, a friend of mine was battling the Navy over $80,000 in pay she received, but shouldn't have over the previous few years. The Navy discovered the error and wanted the money back. I don't know if or how that was resolved.

Two years before I left, they overpaid me $12,000 because a clerk screwed up my medical special pays. I brought it to their attention (because I figured they'd discover the error eventually and I didn't want that to delay my exit paperwork), and multiple people in the personnel office denied it was an error. I eventually convinced them it was an error, so they started a payment plan (which I didn't want) for me to repay the government about $1000/month over a year. The first month they started deducting the money from my paychecks, they deposited an extra $12000 to offset it all. Essentially it appears some clerk didn't know how to fix the problem, so clicked the "no interest hardship pay advance" button instead. I gave up trying to fix it at that point. They never figured it out.

Everyone who's been in the military has at least 3 similar stories.

I was shocked beyond words that they got my retirement pay correct and on time, the very first month after I retired.


This is different though because it appears one branch of the military is abruptly changing contracts. Many times I've seen things sort of like this due to errors or incompetence, but this is the first time that it smells actually malicious and dishonest.

 

[anbuitachi]

another reason to not go to work for gov i guess

 

[coffeebythelake]

the level of governmental bureaucratic incompetence...

 

[Volatile]

Not surprised at all. When I was in the military I personally met a surgeon who was deployed past their service commitment date. Once you sign up they have complete control over you. I believe the only way to be completely free after you leave is to resign your commission.

 

[MirrorTodd]

There's a thread about it in the milmed forum

Watch out...

Time owed / time credited has always been a bizarrely complicated issue. Internship doesn't incur obligation, but it doesn't repay anything. Residency incurs obligation while simultaneously paying off medical school obligation. Unless you have a civilian deferment, then the clock pauses on both. Fellowship incurs sequential obligation except if you have a preciously signed contract extension, in which case it's concurrent. Years spent on active duty in uniform in medical school at USUHS don't count toward pay or retirement, until after you retire, and then they're added to the pay multiplier calculation.

I knew several people over the years who had done the math wrong, and even have confirmation of the bad math from military authorities, but we're later told Oops that's wrong, you actually owe ____. The argument is that the law is the law and the servicemember's mistake or a clerk's mistake don't trump the law. It's the individual's responsibility to get it right.

Pay is frequently screwed up. Similarly no recourse when things are fixed. The year I got out, a friend of mine was battling the Navy over $80,000 in pay she received, but shouldn't have over the previous few years. The Navy discovered the error and wanted the money back. I don't know if or how that was resolved.

Two years before I left, they overpaid me $12,000 because a clerk screwed up my medical special pays. I brought it to their attention (because I figured they'd discover the error eventually and I didn't want that to delay my exit paperwork), and multiple people in the personnel office denied it was an error. I eventually convinced them it was an error, so they started a payment plan (which I didn't want) for me to repay the government about $1000/month over a year. The first month they started deducting the money from my paychecks, they deposited an extra $12000 to offset it all. Essentially it appears some clerk didn't know how to fix the problem, so clicked the "no interest hardship pay advance" button instead. I gave up trying to fix it at that point. They never figured it out.

Everyone who's been in the military has at least 3 similar stories.

I was shocked beyond words that they got my retirement pay correct and on time, the very first month after I retired.


This is different though because it appears one branch of the military is abruptly changing contracts. Many times I've seen things sort of like this due to errors or incompetence, but this is the first time that it smells actually malicious and dishonest.

Dude, I spent 8 years in the reserves with multiple AD deployments. Never had a problem with pay, then I rejoined for med school and things went to ****. lol

 

[buonasera]

expand...

I lost 4 good years of earned creditable service because of this. In the fall 2021, the years were removed from my statement of service without explanation.

It took a congressional and OIG to even get PERS to correspomd with me about why the years were removed. Ultimately, the Navy said this 20yr old recruitment/retention program that all branches have advertised isn't legal as per US Code, so the Navy has to make it right by taking away the years previously credited. No apologies.

BTW, the Air Force and Army have continued to honor this program, but reserve physicians in those branches are worried the same will happen to them.

The Navy does say we will get the promised years of credit after completing 20yrs...which makes this program worth an extra $150 per month in 20yrs when I am eligible for reserve retirement pay...a pitiful recruitment incentive, IMO.

We showed the Navy that their recruitment website (see attachment) clearly showed years of credit would count towards 20yrs, not after. The Navy said we are confused.

 

[coffeebythelake]

I lost 4 good years of earned creditable service because of this. In the fall 2021, the years were removed from my statement of service without explanation.

It took a congressional and OIG to even get PERS to correspomd with me about why the years were removed. Ultimately, the Navy said this 20yr old recruitment/retention program that all branches have advertised isn't legal as per US Code, so the Navy has to make it right by taking away the years previously credited. No apologies.

BTW, the Air Force and Army have continued to honor this program, but reserve physicians in those branches are worried the same will happen to them.

The Navy does say we will get the promised years of credit after completing 20yrs...which makes this program worth an extra $150 per month in 20yrs when I am eligible for reserve retirement pay...a pitiful recruitment incentive, IMO.

We showed the Navy that their recruitment website (see attachment) clearly showed years of credit would count towards 20yrs, not after. The Navy said we are confused.

don't trust the government to do anything that benefits you as a citizen,
unless you are a billionaire then you don't need to pay taxes.

 

[Airway]

don't trust the government to do anything that benefits you as a citizen,
unless you are a billionaire then you don't need to pay taxes.

Sure, but this is a 'hero' that sacrificed losing years of their life at personal risk and cost, not an average Joe getting screwed on their taxes.

Let's just agree that the military is run by corrupt/unethical/incompetent folk and we shouldn't let our children or people we care about become entangled in the military.

 

[psychbender]

Sure, but this is a 'hero' that sacrificed losing years of their life at personal risk and cost, not an average Joe getting screwed on their taxes.

Let's just agree that the military is run by corrupt/unethical/incompetent folk and we shouldn't let our children or people we care about become entangled in the military.

I always liked to describe the military beauracracy with the phrase "sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

 

[DirtDocMD]

another reason to not go to work for gov i guess

I never saw the “allure” of their program. I remember the guys showing up at our med school, “promising the moon”—-money/travel/“get the residency you want”/etc.

Outside residencies wouldn’t SAY it, but they viewed many in the military program as “undesirable”, because there was always the threat of getting called up for your GMO year in the middle of residency, leaving your residency program in a bind.

As for the money, I didn’t see how trading in years of my life and working for WAY less than what I’d make in the private sector, just to have $100-$150k (school was cheaper, then) in tuition “paid off”, was any kind of “deal”.

If your dream is to have a military career, I can see how it might make sense to get the added benefits of signing on early, but otherwise, NOT appealing..

Did I miss something???

 

[MirrorTodd]

I never saw the “allure” of their program. I remember the guys showing up at our med school, “promising the moon”—-money/travel/“get the residency you want”/etc.

Outside residencies wouldn’t SAY it, but they viewed many in the military program as “undesirable”, because there was always the threat of getting called up for your GMO year in the middle of residency, leaving your residency program in a bind.

As for the money, I didn’t see how trading in years of my life and working for WAY less than what I’d make in the private sector, just to have $100-$150k (school was cheaper, then) in tuition “paid off”, was any kind of “deal”.

If your dream is to have a military career, I can see how it might make sense to get the added benefits of signing on early, but otherwise, NOT appealing..

Did I miss something???

The appeal was not having 350k in debt immediately out of med school/residency. I mean I'm literally married right now because the HPSP paid me a small sum in school which allowed me to travel to see my (future) wife and save for a ring (which she promptly lost but that's a story for another day). Yes I would be making more money now as an attending, but I may not be married.

 

[Dr. Rude]

The appeal was not having 350k in debt immediately out of med school/residency. I mean I'm literally married right now because the HPSP paid me a small sum in school which allowed me to travel to see my (future) wife and save for a ring (which she promptly lost but that's a story for another day). Yes I would be making more money now as an attending, but I may not be married.

Have you considered that both of those things might in fact be positives?

 

[pgg]

I never saw the “allure” of their program. I remember the guys showing up at our med school, “promising the moon”—-money/travel/“get the residency you want”/etc.

Outside residencies wouldn’t SAY it, but they viewed many in the military program as “undesirable”, because there was always the threat of getting called up for your GMO year in the middle of residency, leaving your residency program in a bind.

As for the money, I didn’t see how trading in years of my life and working for WAY less than what I’d make in the private sector, just to have $100-$150k (school was cheaper, then) in tuition “paid off”, was any kind of “deal”.

If your dream is to have a military career, I can see how it might make sense to get the added benefits of signing on early, but otherwise, NOT appealing..

Did I miss something???

The mid-residency GMO isn't really a thing, but that's about right. It's not a financial win, except possibly for students at very expensive schools who are bound for lower paying specialties.

Although it's not a financial win in the long run, it IS a win early on - I certainly couldn't have afforded to have 3 kids in med school with a stay-at-home wife without the paycheck and free tuition. Money now is worth more than money later. You can definitely earn more money as a loan to private practice guy but you can't re-live the 8 years of life you were in training.

Recruiters are often clueless, when they're not actually lying out of ignorance or omission.

Internet forums aren't often unanimous about anything, but the milmed forum on SDN is essentially unanimous in advising premeds not to join unless being in the military is a goal in and of itself.

Signing up for HPSP is generally a poorer option than going to schools on loans, doing your residency, and then (if you still want to join) coming on active duty via a direct accession program. Recruiters like to promise the moon, but they never seem to remember to mention that the military will still be there and have loan payment / bonus money to throw around if you want to join later.

The real problem with joining on day 1 of medical school is that you are obligating yourself to do residency in the military system, and (1) it's hard to argue that any military program is truly top 10% in quality, and (2) there's no telling what programs will look like 10 years later when you actually get there.

 

[nimbus]

I never saw the “allure” of their program. I remember the guys showing up at our med school, “promising the moon”—-money/travel/“get the residency you want”/etc.

Outside residencies wouldn’t SAY it, but they viewed many in the military program as “undesirable”, because there was always the threat of getting called up for your GMO year in the middle of residency, leaving your residency program in a bind.

As for the money, I didn’t see how trading in years of my life and working for WAY less than what I’d make in the private sector, just to have $100-$150k (school was cheaper, then) in tuition “paid off”, was any kind of “deal”.

If your dream is to have a military career, I can see how it might make sense to get the added benefits of signing on early, but otherwise, NOT appealing..

Did I miss something???

Often the appeal for military doctors is that they grew up in military families. It’s a way of life. Not speaking from firsthand experience but I’ve witnessed it a lot.

I know a former navy radiologist who is also a very successful entrepreneur. Money is no object for them. What did their oldest son do straight out of HS? Joined the USMC.

 

[epidural man]

I never saw the “allure” of their program. I remember the guys showing up at our med school, “promising the moon”—-money/travel/“get the residency you want”/etc.

Outside residencies wouldn’t SAY it, but they viewed many in the military program as “undesirable”, because there was always the threat of getting called up for your GMO year in the middle of residency, leaving your residency program in a bind.

As for the money, I didn’t see how trading in years of my life and working for WAY less than what I’d make in the private sector, just to have $100-$150k (school was cheaper, then) in tuition “paid off”, was any kind of “deal”.

If your dream is to have a military career, I can see how it might make sense to get the added benefits of signing on early, but otherwise, NOT appealing..

Did I miss something???

The cost of my first year of med school (I was married) scared me into the military.

I also imagined at the time I was going to be in a low paying specialty.

 

[psychbender]

Often the appeal for military doctors is that they grew up in military families. It’s a way of life. Not speaking from firsthand experience but I’ve witnessed it a lot.

That is a really good point. My dad was career (nonmedical) military, as was his father before him. I was the only one that left before retirement. I signed, in part, because it was familiar and ran in the family. I am also very debt-averse, so that appealed, even if it really didn't make sense in the grand scheme of things. I am comforted by the knowledge that I can quit medicine entirely right now, and not have any educational debt (just my mortgage, and the house has gone up in value since I bought it).

 

[Airway]

Recruiters like to promise the moon, but they never seem to remember to mention that the military will still be there and have loan payment / bonus money to throw around if you want to join later.

I guess my problem with what they have done here is a systemic lie and failure to acknowledge their unethical theft. Not a simple recruiter lie, but this was a program that existed with explicit promises on paper. Some people got their retirement credit and got out and now for the people that haven't retired stolen years due to a decision saying that 'the program was illegal.'

Lots of people make bad financial decisions, but this goes beyond that.

 

[deleted1156848]

If it wasn’t in your contract then it wasn’t a thing. Does hpsp count toward active duty retirement? My understanding was no. It’s not like they were drilling in med school. You still get your 15 points for the years (maybe more but probably not 50). Some of the most entitled people I’ve ever met were in the military looking for their handout.

Seriously, that disingenuous dentist with his private practice should be able to manage the reserves.

 

[BLADEMDA]

HPSP Time towards retirement

I was reading on the MODS website Q: Does HPSP Time Count for Retirement? A: Yes you get one year of HPSP good for retirement for every year in the Selected Reserves. No credit given if you are in active duty. All information points to Title 10 of the US Code Specifically subsection 2126...

forums.studentdoctor.net

This thread from 2010, 13 years ago, states HPSP does not count towards the first 20 years of retirement. So, those who got the credit for it "gamed" the system.

 

[buonasera]

@micropannus and @BLADEMDA While I appreciate any attention this post gets, I would kindly ask that anyone who suggests reserve physicians do not have a legitimate claim to these years of credit please reference official documents, instructions,or US Code. Prior SDN posts can be helpful, but they often contain only hearsay, assumptions, and opinions. We are physicians and we all understand the importance of having literature to support our arguments.

I have already posted the recruitment page from the MYNAVYHR website. I also have emails from the Navy Reserve medical affairs officer (the BUMED liaison for reserve physicians) and the winter 2018 medical corps newsletter which both clearly state members will get years of credit for HPSP that count towards 20yrs.

 

[buonasera]

If you can follow it, below is the legal basis for this program.

1. The Memo from the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Oct 2000) (pdf of the memo is attached) describing this recruitment/retention program states:

"This directive type memorandum provides guidance for the implementation of section 2126(b) of title 10, United States Code, as amended by section 544 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2000."

2. If you go to 2126(b) of title 10, United States Code, you find: (here is the link for your review 10 U.S. Code § 2126 - Members of the program: service credit)

(b)Service Creditable for Certain Purposes.—
(1)The Secretary concerned may authorize service performed by a member of the program in pursuit of a course of study under this subchapter to be counted in accordance with this subsection if the member—
(A)
completes the course of study;
(B)
completes the active duty obligation imposed under section 2123(a) of this title; and
(C)
possesses a specialty designated by the Secretary concerned as critically needed in wartime.
(2)
Service credited under paragraph (1) counts only for the award of retirement points for computation of years of service under section 12732 of this title and for computation of retired pay under section 12733 of this title.


3. Please note that the above 2126(b) describes the program at issue and describes how HPSP is eligible for service creditable.


4. if you click on the link for section 12732 above, you will find that it states:


(a)Except as provided in subsection (b), for the purpose of determining whether a person is entitled to retired pay under section 12731 of this title, the person’s years of service are computed by adding the following:

(then scroll down to where they discuss service after 1949)

(2)Each one-year period, after July 1, 1949, in which the person has been credited with at least 50 points on the following basis:
(A)One point for each day of—
(i)
active service; or
(ii)
full-time service under sections 316, 502, 503, 504, and 505 of title 32 while performing annual training duty or while attending a prescribed course of instruction at a school designated as a service school by law or by the Secretary concerned;
if that service conformed to required standards and qualifications.
(B)
One point for each attendance at a drill or period of equivalent instruction that was prescribed for that year by the Secretary concerned and conformed to the requirements prescribed by law, including attendance under section 502 of title 32.
(C)Points at the rate of 15 a year for membership—
(i)
in a reserve component of an armed force,
(ii)
in the Army or the Air Force without component, or
(iii)
in any other category covered by subsection (a)(1) except a regular component.
(D)
Points credited for the year under section 2126(b) of this title.

5. (D) references back to section 2126 (b) which describes the program at issue.

2126(b) of Title 10, US Code states that people who completed the HPSP program, completed their obligated active duty time, and then serve in the critical wartime specialty get 50pts per year for each year they do this.
12732 of Title 10, US Code states that "for the purpose of whether a person is entitled to retired pay, the person's years of service are computed by adding...points credited for the year under the 2126(b) program (ie. the critical wartime specialty recruitment program.

 

[Airway]

HPSP Time towards retirement

I was reading on the MODS website Q: Does HPSP Time Count for Retirement? A: Yes you get one year of HPSP good for retirement for every year in the Selected Reserves. No credit given if you are in active duty. All information points to Title 10 of the US Code Specifically subsection 2126...

forums.studentdoctor.net

This thread from 2010, 13 years ago, states HPSP does not count towards the first 20 years of retirement. So, those who got the credit for it "gamed" the system.

It's pretty obvious you are wrong if you read the posts after you & the fact that so many navy physicians previously got credit and while army and air force physicians continue to get credit under this program.

If you would like to retain any sense credibility I would suggest you withdraw your statement and apologize for your lack of knowledge in this topic. I suspect you will just double down, however.

 

[pgg]

HPSP Time towards retirement

I was reading on the MODS website Q: Does HPSP Time Count for Retirement? A: Yes you get one year of HPSP good for retirement for every year in the Selected Reserves. No credit given if you are in active duty. All information points to Title 10 of the US Code Specifically subsection 2126...

forums.studentdoctor.net

This thread from 2010, 13 years ago, states HPSP does not count towards the first 20 years of retirement. So, those who got the credit for it "gamed" the system.

Service credit, particularly for staff corps officers, is exceptionally convoluted and opaque. I know it's tempting to view SDN threads as the ultimate repository of all information, and the final authority in all disputes, but there are layers and exceptions and loopholes to this subject.

Please don't suggest that any of these people gamed the system, implying they did something sneaky or dishonest, or that credit is undeserved.

The bottom line is that they were reservists during that time, eligible and on the hook for call up (however unlikely), and they deserve credit. The military published information for the purposes of recruitment, promising credit. For years and years and years, individuals have completed reserve careers and received credit.

Presently, the Army and Air Force ARE honoring those contracts; only the Navy isn't.

This is an indefensible alteration of a contract. If it was any entity but the military doing it, it would be stomped out in court with prejudice in about 45 seconds, and the judge would probably have the bailiff give wedgies all around just for good measure. But the military operates under its own rules, which are fluid and changeable.

 

[psychbender]

 

[ProwlerturnGas]

I love the handout accusation as I prepare for my 5th reserve deployment.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Getting Retirement Credit for HPSP in the Reserves

In the recently released Winter Medical Corps Newsletter, I noticed this paragraph in the “Readiness in the Reserves” article: Shipmates, I have just returned from PERS-9 (Reserves), re…

mccareer.org

Army Policy – Guidance on Reserve Service Credit for Participation in DOD HPSP and FAP

Policy Guidance on Reserve Service Credit for Participation in DoD Health Professions Scholarship and Financial Assistance Program

The Memo from the Army makes it very clear that HPSP counts toward retirement (50 points per year) if you are in one of the critical wartime specialties.
So, PGG is correct that only the Navy is not following this long standing policy enacted in 1997.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I love the handout accusation as I prepare for my 5th reserve deployment.

I think the documents posted proved that HPSP counts towards retirement effective since 09/1996. Perhaps, you can file an appeal using these documents as proof.

 

[Airway]

I think the documents posted proved that HPSP counts towards retirement effective since 09/1996. Perhaps, you can file an appeal using these documents as proof.

/S Great apology and retraction of your misinformation.

Do you honestly think an oig, congressional inquiry and appeals to navy personnel command haven't been filed yet? All of which were ignored or rejected.

 

[narcusprince]

The only way to move the barometer on that would be an congressman taking this for action. I think we as Navy reservists should be allowed to leave the Navy and join the air national guard or army. Im probably going to leave the navy reserves for greener pastures in the army.

 

[pgg]

I think we as Navy reservists should be allowed to leave the Navy and join the air national guard or army. Im probably going to leave the navy reserves for greener pastures in the army.

You can.

Ask Bobby where he wound up.