Army Military Match Score Sheet

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Slevin

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So all documents have been submitted and now the wait till results are released but in the mean time I was wondering if anyone had a copy or knew where I could procure a copy of the military match score sheet... I'd like to see where I line up points wise overall

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It's going to be impossible for you to tell from looking at the sheet because a bunch of your points come from military bearing and potential as a future officer category. This is essentially a Personality contest/fudge factor for the needs of the army, and the only input you have on it is by not being a douche on your audition rotations. The other points come from the standard board scores/grades/letters of eval. You can get a few extra points for research depending on the type and amount you've done. Good luck.
 
I don't know to what residency you applied, but I can say that I can't remember our staff every glancing at a score sheet during the decision-making process. Possible that it came up at the meeting with our consultant, but since we almost always got our first-third choice of incoming interns, and our ranking had nothing to do with military bearing or officer-capacity (other than, as mentioned, that you weren't a douche), I would say that the scorecards aren't always important....at least not for every program....

As a chief resident, we were made a part of that decision making process. I never looked at a score sheet. Important facts: 1: not a douche. that was an automatic disqualification, 2: acceptable board scores, 3: research or other qualifiers, 4: performance during rotation (asked good questions, had good answers, showed interest, commited himself to actually rotating on the service). Those four points resulting in a pretty good stratification of candidates.
 
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I don't know to what residency you applied, but I can say that I can't remember our staff every glancing at a score sheet during the decision-making process. Possible that it came up at the meeting with our consultant, but since we almost always got our first-third choice of incoming interns, and our ranking had nothing to do with military bearing or officer-capacity (other than, as mentioned, that you weren't a douche), I would say that the scorecards aren't always important....at least not for every program....

As a chief resident, we were made a part of that decision making process. I never looked at a score sheet. Important facts: 1: not a douche. that was an automatic disqualification, 2: acceptable board scores, 3: research or other qualifiers, 4: performance during rotation (asked good questions, had good answers, showed interest, commited himself to actually rotating on the service). Those four points resulting in a pretty good stratification of candidates.
This is a very good post.
I think we, as applicants, make more of this "scoring system" than the selection committee does. If it exists, it probably only serves as guidance. Ive seen plenty of people get selected over GMOs, over prior service. These "stud" points do not count more than academic prowess (the latter is more important in the eyes of the slection committee, i think)
 
I can say for sure that we turned away candidates with prior service, GMO, or transitional year experience in favor of candidates with none of those qualifications. In fact, I can say for sure that happened in a few cases.
 
I've been told that the Navy adheres to the point system much more strictly than the Army or AF. I was speaking with someone who partook in the joint GMESB last year and he was a little irritated that while he and his fellow Navy PDs were adding up points, the Army and AF guys basically showed up knowing who they wanted and then made the points fit.

Allegedly. I'm sure it was more complicated than that.

Regardless, as an applicant, all you can do is get good grades, put up good board scores, get some research in, interview and audition well. You know, the same things civilians do to get the residencies they want.
 
I don't know to what residency you applied, but I can say that I can't remember our staff every glancing at a score sheet during the decision-making process. Possible that it came up at the meeting with our consultant, but since we almost always got our first-third choice of incoming interns, and our ranking had nothing to do with military bearing or officer-capacity (other than, as mentioned, that you weren't a douche), I would say that the scorecards aren't always important....at least not for every program....

As a chief resident, we were made a part of that decision making process. I never looked at a score sheet. Important facts: 1: not a douche. that was an automatic disqualification, 2: acceptable board scores, 3: research or other qualifiers, 4: performance during rotation (asked good questions, had good answers, showed interest, commited himself to actually rotating on the service). Those four points resulting in a pretty good stratification of candidates.

I was told the score sheet is specifically for the PGY-2 and fellowship matches, it does not apply for the Intern match. For the PGY-2 and fellowship matches, at least in the Navy, I have always been told that the score sheet it the absolute final answer: higher points gets the job. PDs have control over the 'fudge factor' points like potential as an officer, but if the absolute points (GMO tour performance, research, board scores) push you ahead of the other candidates despite the PD can't overrule it.

I'll agree though, there's not a lot you can learn from looking at the sheet. The only thing you can really get from it is how the Navy assigns points for research (they don't give any credit without publications or poster presentations, and two published papers maxes the points) and how many points a GMO tour can add (a lot). Other than that the points are basically just proxies for job performance.
 
If you are Navy...respect the sheet. Get your research points and Fleet experience...otherwise it doesn't matter if you have the charisma of Bill Clinton and intelligence of Bill Gates.

There is certainly some fudge factor...but those fleet experience and research points are very difficult to overcome.
 
I was told the score sheet is specifically for the PGY-2 and fellowship matches, it does not apply for the Intern match. For the PGY-2 and fellowship matches, at least in the Navy, I have always been told that the score sheet it the absolute final answer: higher points gets the job. PDs have control over the 'fudge factor' points like potential as an officer, but if the absolute points (GMO tour performance, research, board scores) push you ahead of the other candidates despite the PD can't overrule it.

I'll agree though, there's not a lot you can learn from looking at the sheet. The only thing you can really get from it is how the Navy assigns points for research (they don't give any credit without publications or poster presentations, and two published papers maxes the points) and how many points a GMO tour can add (a lot). Other than that the points are basically just proxies for job performance.

Wow. That sounds like just another good reason not to join the military.
 
I've been told that the Navy adheres to the point system much more strictly than the Army or AF. I was speaking with someone who partook in the joint GMESB last year and he was a little irritated that while he and his fellow Navy PDs were adding up points, the Army and AF guys basically showed up knowing who they wanted and then made the points fit.

Allegedly. I'm sure it was more complicated than that.

Regardless, as an applicant, all you can do is get good grades, put up good board scores, get some research in, interview and audition well. You know, the same things civilians do to get the residencies they want.

I always suspected this was close to the truth. Not saying the points are completely useless but the PDs have a draft card that they go in with and make it work as best they can, with applicant preferences being the tie-breakers.
 
Wow. That sounds like just another good reason not to join the military.

Why? I feel like the point system is pretty reasonable, it standardizes what counts as research to cut down on BS resume building, and it makes sure that people who put in their 2 years as a GMO aren't screwed out of residency slots just because they haven't had as much recent face time with the faculty. Also it somewhat cuts down on the obsession that everyone has with Step 1 scores, which I think is a good thing.
 
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Without a selection board process, programs would all just take known quantities. From what I saw, all three services used the point system for GI. Lots of wiggle room to move down people known to suck (fairly really) but still select the best records. I'm cool with it.
 
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Question about research-- I'm an MS1 at USUHS and I've received a variety of answers already from people there. Do publications from years prior to medical school count? I really don't see myself having enough time to generate some quality basic science research while I'm a student here. Perhaps when I'm an MS4, but that would be after I go through residency interviews.

Thanks in advance!

Edit: Found the answer on a different website. Much to my relief, publications from previous years do indeed count!
 
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I dunno. On the Navy side, I applied for two highly competitive specialties and was a primary select in one, alternate in another. I think the program's pretty much take who they want regardless of points. On the other hand, I've had people involved in the process on the Navy side say that the points system is followed to the letter. Who really knows....
 
So all documents have been submitted and now the wait till results are released but in the mean time I was wondering if anyone had a copy or knew where I could procure a copy of the military match score sheet... I'd like to see where I line up points wise overall
It's basically like this. There are 4 sections, each one rated out of 5 points. 1.Med school and steps one and two. 2. Intern year and step three. 3. GMO time if you have it and 4. Subjective. There are also bonus points (1 or 2 if prior service or prior military medical) and up to 4 points for publications.

You are graded by someone from Navy, Army and AF. They can't be too far off or they throw out the odd rank. This way all three services are about the same and while there are subjective points its much harder for one branch to play favorites.

In general you can make up points by getting a warfare device as a GMO, getting deployed (section 3); going to your intended residency's grand rounds, getting letters of rec from doctors in your intended specialty, not being a deuchebag (all section 4) and writing papers-bonus points.
 
It is a reasonably fair process, helped by the fact that three people from three services score the packages. Not sure why but the services like to take their PGY-1 applicants out of the process and keep the decisions internal on the med students.
 

Because doing dumb military stuff and getting ANY points for it is... dumb. Your "officer potential" is not related to your "doctor potential," and is quite often inversely related. Let's be honest here, most here are not "warriors" or whatever the heck Navy calls it. Most are overweight, out of shape, profiled-to-the-max, etc.

Clean and pressed class A uniform in your DA photo just does not make up for a 27 on the MCAT, or 210 on your step 1, or crappy clinical evaluations, or 40% Admin time on DMHRSi. You just can't apply the standards the DoD uses for PFC Snuffy's promotion to SPC Snuffy to residency selection in the MC.

How does doing a GMO tour make you more eligible to do a radiology, or anesthesiology or surgery residency? I know why the incentive system exists, but in 2014, it SHOULDN'T exist. No more GMO, no more bonus points for longevity. Your qualification should be based on your clinical acumen, your demonstrated performance, not for the crispness of your salute. I concede that hooah category has to exist, but reserve that for promotions only.
 
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Because doing dumb military stuff and getting ANY points for it is... dumb. Your "officer potential" is not related to your "doctor potential," and is quite often inversely related. Let's be honest here, most here are not "warriors" or whatever the heck Navy calls it.

Clean and pressed class A uniform in your DA photo just does not make up for a 27 on the MCAT, or 210 on your step 1, or crappy clinical evaluations, or 40% Admin time on DMHRSi

🙂

It amazes me that people sign up to the military with the expectation that they will not have to be a military officer. The military grade sheet is the way it is for a reason. Just because it doesn't benefit you doesn't make it "dumb".

The grade sheet is not very different than what civilian programs find important. The mass majority of your points is due to your numbers. So I get points for my fleet experience...I am receiving that same positive response by the programs currently interviewing me. They think that it is a good thing.

There has to be a way to level the playing field for guys coming off of Fleet utilization tours...because medical students have significantly more time to smooze than guys with real jobs. Do Fleet tours cause skill atrophy? In some ways yes...but it also creates a significant amount of autonomy and leadership. Now days students and even interns are coddled through the entire process. I am currently in the match process and I ask every PD I come across what the biggest issue they have with incoming PGY-2s. The answer is the same EVERY TIME. PGY-2 struggle with being able to make a clinical decision due to being coddled their entire medical career...and they have significant issues with CALL.
 
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🙂 it also creates a significant amount of autonomy and leadership.

...which is not required in the position of a medical resident. How does "autonomy and leadership" help you with diagnosing and managing a closed loop obstruction?

Once again, don't get me wrong - I know the DoD routinely screws their junior staff with GMO tours, and there has to be a way to help those folks. I'm just condemning the WHOLE system - GMO, bonus points, etc. Military GME is built on a rotten foundation, and it just needs to go.
 
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Because you're using unrelated information, such as completing a GMO tour or prior service, to determine who is a good candidate for a residency. Church and state, if you ask me. And I disagree in that I feel that step 1 scores are more important than spending 2 years checking feet at a level I.
 
...which is not required in the position of a medical resident. How does "autonomy and leadership" help you with diagnosing and managing a closed loop obstruction?

Once again, don't get me wrong - I know the DoD routinely screws their junior staff with GMO tours, and there has to be a way to help those folks. I'm just condemning the WHOLE system - GMO, bonus points, etc. Military GME is built on a rotten foundation, and it just needs to go.

If you are condemning the military score sheet system...you are condemning the entire match process. The military just tries to make the process more objective...which in the military is IMPORTANT. You can't have programs showing favoritism for trivial reasons. If one candidate has much better grades/scores than another...the program can't just give the position to the candidate they "like" more. The program has some leeway by means of adjusting the "military potential/leadership" points...but the candidates have to be in the same ballpark. And isn't that the way it should be?

If you don't think that autonomy is important in leadership I question whether you are an actual attending. Seriously...you are telling me that the ability to be independent and make sound clinical decisions isn't important as a resident? Yeah...I'm calling BS on that one.
 
🙂

It amazes me that people sign up to the military with the expectation that they will not have to be a military officer. The military grade sheet is the way it is for a reason. Just because it doesn't benefit you doesn't make it "dumb".

There has to be a way to level the playing field for guys coming off of Fleet utilization tours...because medical students have significantly more time to smooze than guys with real jobs. Do Fleet tours cause skill atrophy? In some ways yes...but it also creates a significant amount of autonomy and leadership. No days students and even interns are coddled through the entire process. I am currently in the match process and I ask every PD I come across what the biggest issue they have with incoming PGY-2s. The answer is the same EVERY TIME. PGY-1s struggle with being able to give a clinic decision due to being coddled their entire medical career...and they have significant issues with CALL.

It's not always that people don't want to be an officer - its that there are frequently situations during which being an officer directly contradicts your duty as a physician. My feeling is that given that situation, if you pick being an officer over taking care of your patients, then you shouldn't be taking care of patients. Doing both, when they don't compete, is reasonable and can be rewarding.

Leveling the playing field is one thing - weighting it is another. The situation is different in the Navy for sure, where GMO tours are more common. However, there are quite a few Army GMOs (not all of them) who didn't match the first time because they're poor candidates. If there is even one circumstance in which a poorer candidate GMO gets a residency spot instead of a better candidate graduating MS, I think it's a tragedy.

Lots of people have trouble with call and with making clinical decisions, and perhaps being on a GMO tour helps with that. But it doesn't erase a history of poor performance in medical school. I have also seen post-GMO residents make decisions hastily and without proper direction, which is the other side of the coin.

If you have two candidates who are otherwise competative, then I am all for giving some weight to the prior service/GMO guy. I suppose it all depends upon how much "levelling" of the field we're discussing.
 
If you are condemning the military score sheet system...you are condemning the entire match process. The military just tries to make the process more objective...which in the military is IMPORTANT. You can't have programs showing favoritism for trivial reasons. If one candidate has much better grades/scores than another...the program can't just give the position to the candidate they "like" more. The program has some leeway by means of adjusting the "military potential/leadership" points...but the candidates have to be in the same ballpark. And isn't that the way it should be?

If you don't think that autonomy is important in leadership I question whether you are an actual attending. Seriously...you are telling me that the ability to be independent and make sound clinical decisions isn't important as a resident? Yeah...I'm calling BS on that one.

autonomy is helpful - to a point - as a resident. leadership is fine, so long as you understand as a resident that you aren't the expert. There are plenty of residents out there who make ignorant decisions without supervision - and that kind of autonomy is not a good thing. I am sure that is what he meant. Not "sound clinical decisions." Obviously making the right call is a good thing. But knowing when you have the knowlege base to do so isn't as straightfoward as you might think.

Most programs make decisions based upon grades, step scores, performance during rotations, etc., not trivial reasons. I think the contrary argument here is that the military scoresheet is a trivial reason to place one candidate ahead of another. That is the core of this whole argument, and it isn't going to be solved on this thread. You feel that a GMO tour makes people better leaders and stronger decision makers. I don't even disagree with that. I wonder, however, if that makes them a better resident in the specific case in which they are a poorer academic candidate or a poorer personality fit for the residency. As there isn't any data being presented, these are all just opinions.
 
It's not always that people don't want to be an officer - its that there are frequently situations during which being an officer directly contradicts your duty as a physician.
I hear this a lot, but I think it's mostly bull****. I spent 3 years as a Marine infantry GMO, deployed twice to places we were busy killing people and breaking things, and I honestly can't think of even a single instance in which my officerly duties got in the way of my medical duties and doing the right thing for a patient. The closest might've been when I recommended a few Marines be left behind for a predeployment training trip to 29 Palms so they could get their physical therapy, and the CO took them anyway and put them on radio duty. But that was on him not me.

I'm just curious to hear examples of how your duty as an officer "frequently" resulted in suboptimal care.


I think the whole GMO system is fundamentally flawed and we shouldn't be sending out glorified interns to do anything even resembling independent practice. You won't see me defend that.

I think the little bit of objectivity and hint of transparency the GMESB point system offers is a good thing, and I disagree that GMO time shouldn't be eligible for some points. And I wrote "eligible" meaning I think it should be fuzzy and discretionary so that real accomplishments and interim face time can be accounted for ... and a turn in the GMO barrel does deserve some kind of compensation.

Two years seeing feet at sick call shouldn't make up for a 175 Step 1 score, but that time is worth something. We can quibble over the details of how many points for what if you like, but your stance of GMO time ain't worth nothin' is extreme and seems to reflect more bitterness and bias than sense.
 
I hear this a lot, but I think it's mostly bull****. I spent 3 years as a Marine infantry GMO, deployed twice to places we were busy killing people and breaking things, and I honestly can't think of even a single instance in which my officerly duties got in the way of my medical duties and doing the right thing for a patient. The closest might've been when I recommended a few Marines be left behind for a predeployment training trip to 29 Palms so they could get their physical therapy, and the CO took them anyway and put them on radio duty. But that was on him not me.

I'm just curious to hear examples of how your duty as an officer "frequently" resulted in suboptimal care.


I think the whole GMO system is fundamentally flawed and we shouldn't be sending out glorified interns to do anything even resembling independent practice. You won't see me defend that.

I think the little bit of objectivity and hint of transparency the GMESB point system offers is a good thing, and I disagree that GMO time shouldn't be eligible for some points. And I wrote "eligible" meaning I think it should be fuzzy and discretionary so that real accomplishments and interim face time can be accounted for ... and a turn in the GMO barrel does deserve some kind of compensation.

Two years seeing feet at sick call shouldn't make up for a 175 Step 1 score, but that time is worth something. We can quibble over the details of how many points for what if you like, but your stance of GMO time ain't worth nothin' is extreme and seems to reflect more bitterness and bias than sense.

I've posted multiple times about how my duty as a military officer resulted in suboptimal care or the potential for suboptimal care. I think there are quite a few posts about that sort of thing, from a variety of posters. Cancelling cases due to mandatory UA, cancelling previously scheduled clinical appointments due to last minute command meetings, to attent last minute mandatory resiliency training. Being asked to cover call 24/7 for indefinite periods of time while being disallowed to refer treatment off post even in cases of extreme fatigue. Mandatory unit PT at 05:30 after a call night, and then still having to see a full patient load. These are small issues that regularly show up where you are expected to choose your duty as an officer over the best interests of your patients.

Another example might be your duty as an officer to take on a brigade surgeon spot, and then return to practice after 2 years of not actually providing care in your field. It hasn't happened to me, but it is happening. If that's not a contradiction to appropriate medical care, nothing is.

I am not saying, nor have I ever said, that I've been ordered to shoot a child or burn a village. But there are definitely recurring situations in which I am expected to do something that compromises patient care becaues it is my duty as a military officer. It may not seem like a big deal, but I assure you it was a big deal for the child who had their surgery cancelled, and for their mother who moved her work schedule around and now has to reschedule surgery. It was a big deal for me doing microsurgery with an amplified tremor due to lack of sleep. It isn't that these situations can't or don't occur outside of the military, but the fact is that the Army in these cases was the direct cause of the issue - all in the name of duty. You can draw your own line on what is acceptable in terms of balancing high-quality patient care with military duty. I have drawn my own, and I am asked to cross it not infrequently.

I'm glad you've had the career you've had in the military. In just a short period of time, I have obviously had a much worse time than you have. Considering the attritian rate in the military, I'm obviously not alone in that. Contrarily, I feel that the overall standard of care in the military is quite good (I stand against the common opinion on that one), but that is despite of the military, not because of it.

If you read my other posts, you'll note that I didn't say GMO time wasn't worth anything. But as you say, it ought to be a very measured point system, and it certainly doesn't qualify as more significant than medical school performance. At most, it is another CV bullet that should put a candidate ahead of his peers all other things more-or-less equal. But keep in mind, that is based upon my experience in the Army, where GMO tours are not frequent and are often (not always) a result of poor candidacy during the initial match process. I realize that is not the case in the Navy.

And you are right about one thing: I am very bitter when it comes to the military, that is true and it is entirely a product of my experience since joining. I had strongly considered a career in the military until the last year or so of my residency. All of my DoD-angst has come since that time, not before. But as are we all, I am a product of my environment, and this environment is not a good one in which to practice medicine.
 
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I think the point system is a little bit of a double-edged sword. On one hand, its mere existence discourages favoritism, which is a good thing. On the other, I can think of more than one substandard applicant that was forced into a program - despite the PD's objections - because of points from GMO tours. Not surprisingly, those applicants have become bad residents who have no business in the program. Overall though, the match and point system seem to work, so I see no reason to change it.

After all, it's one of the few times in one's military career that actual medical performance plays a primary role in advancement. In contradistinction, very few things that make me a good physician have any business being on my OER. Meanwhile, admin gurus have bullet points coming out of their arses. I think when people talk about officership and medicine being at odds, it's not because some O6 nurse refuses to fetch a bed pan. Rather, the duties compete with each other because there aren't enough hours in the day to do both. Sure, I could really pour myself into my multiple OIC positions, and I bet that could get me a top-block OER, too, but I couldn't doing it without neglected the clinical workload. As a physician, I value the latter, but the Army clearly values the former.
 
I agree that a poor candidates should not be given spots over good ones. There are some scenarios in which a poor candidate would have higher points than a good candidate but the numbers could be fudged to make it work.

And you do have to look at what is important for the military. Retention of physicians is important. So an applicant that is willing to defer civilian residency to go back to a military residency could be a selling point for the military.

I think that I am ok with a good GMO applicant getting a residency spot over a great medical school applicant. The reason why is because though the great medical school applicant may have a higher upside...I would say that they would have a higher downside as well in comparison to a guy who has already done well in internship and Fleet tour.
 
I agree that a poor candidates should not be given spots over good ones. There are some scenarios in which a poor candidate would have higher points than a good candidate but the numbers could be fudged to make it work.

And you do have to look at what is important for the military. Retention of physicians is important. So an applicant that is willing to defer civilian residency to go back to a military residency could be a selling point for the military.

I think that I am ok with a good GMO applicant getting a residency spot over a great medical school applicant. The reason why is because though the great medical school applicant may have a higher upside...I would say that they would have a higher downside as well in comparison to a guy who has already done well in internship and Fleet tour.
And you may be right. Or you may not. The answer probably depends upon what qualities are important for a resident.

As a point of reference: I was a non-traditional candidate for when I went to med school. I had a post-graduate degree in chemistry and had worked as a manager for a relatively large region for a company that made scientific equipment. I always felt like that gave me an edge in terms of leadership and experience when compared with my fellow applicants. But at the same time had I done poorly in medical school, either due to a lack of hard work or due to difficulty with the material, I would have struggled to match into a competative residency. Having completed a competative residency, I think that leadership and experience are very important when it comes to how quickly a resident becomes effective, but I think that knowledge, education, and the ability to absorb large amounts of information in short periods of time are more important to becoming a safe, appropriate decision maker. You don't want residents making under-informed, or ill-informed decisions - no matter how confidently they make them.

And again, I think the GMO situation in the Navy is a different beast. If that great candidate ends up getting booted to a GMO he probably stands a pretty good chance of matching after he completes his tour. In the Army, it'd be a long shot to match into an extremely competative residency (from my experience).

If the score sheets are nothing more than a way to compare prior-service applicants, and are then used in conjunction with a strong academic application as evidence of more experience (like doing a lot of research in a relevant field), then that is probably very appropriate. If it means that a great candidate doesn't match, but an average ones does, then I think that's a disservice. I'm sure there are PDs on both sides of that argument as well.
 
I could buy that.

From my limited experience with PGY-2 match in the Navy...every once in a while the grade sheet can screw someone. It happened to a buddy of mine. He had a prior service applicant get a slot that everyone else in our internship class felt my buddy deserved more. But then again...the problem with the prior service applicant wasn't intelligence...it came down to personality/work ethic/abilities as an intern.

I have come across a handful of poor interns in my life and it really is a mixed bag as of the reason. One had difficulties with making a firm decision on care. Another was a gunner to the extent that he would stay later than the attending and would modified his notes to more closely follow the attending (and the dude was brilliant...he had absolutely no need to do it). Another was socially awkward and didn't communicate well. Another dumped work on others and did not have a good reputation with the senior residents. The last was a liability in terms of medical knowledge and practices...failed the COMLEX twice...and should have never made it to internship.
The only one of the five that would have received poor evaluations by traditional "non-score sheet" evaluations is the last candidate. But if measures from internship and fleet experience would have been considered, then I am pretty sure you would have been able to capture many more of those poor residents. And rest assured the liability intern did not get a PGY-2 spot over any higher qualified applicants.

Intelligence is important in medicine...no question...but you don't have to be brilliant to be a good resident. If I was a PD I would take a good candidate that did well in internship and fleet tour over a guy straight out of medical school that is book smart. I strongly believe that the best indicator of residency success is how someone did in internship...not medical school.

The score sheet usually puts the best applicants in the best programs. Yes a few are screwed in the process...but the same can be said of the "non-score sheet" evaluation process.
 
No question that someone can be screwed either way. That's true of anything.

The poor residents I have run into were mostly guys who tried to make decisions that they shouldn't have been making. I worked with poor residents on other services who were poor for a variety of reasons, but in my specialty, it was rarely because they weren't smart. For what I do, internship is just a random arrangement of slightly related rotations. The only ones that really mattered were your general surgery rotation, and frankly only then because you learn how to manage inpatients. Everything else you learn after your internship. What mattered during internship is that you showed up when you were supposed to, never skimped on your work, and that you got along with the staff and other residents - kind of the same thing on which you are graded as a medical student. But that is because our internship is a rotating internship -almost entirely off-service. I don't feel like we ever got helpful information from residents coming into their R2 year that we didn't have when they were a rotating medical student. Maybe that is just the nature of the way that kind of program operates.

Allow me to clarify my actual concern - it's not like I think a GMO tour takes something away from those who do them. Admittedly, I would imagine that it would be difficult to go from an internship to a residency, but it wouldn't be insurmountable, and I do believe that having some time away from constant schooling (be it a real job or GMO time) can be a good thing.

My concern is that, based upon everything I've seen in the Army so far, the DoD would place some kind of idiotic requirement on these scoresheets and require that PDs blindly adhere to them. Rules for the sake of rules without regard to their intent is basically the Army's motto - maybe the Navy is different. If programs are obliged to give up on candidates that they really want because of a piece of paper, that's a shame. If it's a situation where the PD would be happy with two potential residents, and one has GMO time, then that's not a big deal at all. Lets be honest, you can get good residents from medical school or from a GMO, just as you can get bad residents from either place.

As pgg said the whole GMO concept is crap to begin with, so it isn't as if I'm saying that GM officers ought to go piss in a hole. I think they've been dealt a bad hand. But if what we're doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul, that isn't actually correcting the situation.
 
I've posted multiple times about how my duty as a military officer resulted in suboptimal care or the potential for suboptimal care. I think there are quite a few posts about that sort of thing, from a variety of posters. Cancelling cases due to mandatory UA, cancelling previously scheduled clinical appointments due to last minute command meetings, to attent last minute mandatory resiliency training. Being asked to cover call 24/7 for indefinite periods of time while being disallowed to refer treatment off post even in cases of extreme fatigue. Mandatory unit PT at 05:30 after a call night, and then still having to see a full patient load. These are small issues that regularly show up where you are expected to choose your duty as an officer over the best interests of your patients.

I'm sorry, but you gotta have a pair of nads on you to sometimes blow off your line officers who think these other things are more important than patient care (the only thing that I wouldn't blow off is a mandatory UA and the BCA/PRT). If you've ever been a line officer, you know your own bullsh*t stinks, chances are that they wont harass you if you stand up to them. This is all personality-based. If you're the timid type who easily bows down to people (can't blame you: you're trying to please everyone), then yes you're going to be very frustrated in this job.

I've only been a GMO for a few months, and already I've blown off several meetings and mandatory evolutions because I was involved in some type of patient-care. No one said a word about it. Maybe I got lucky, I've got a great XO/CO who understand that I don't need to be at the 6th PB4T of the week, they'd rather I protocol that stat MRI.

I'm just curious to hear examples of how your duty as an officer "frequently" resulted in suboptimal care.

Well said, and quite true. It's a common theme among all officers in the military. Those in the JAG complain that their duties as an officer invade upon their duties as lawyers, that engineers can't be engineers, weapons officers aren't doing enough weaponry. There might be some truth to all of that: but quite honestly, I've never seen anyone disciplined for erring on the side of doing their job well.
 
I'm sorry, but you gotta have a pair of nads on you to sometimes blow off your line officers who think these other things are more important than patient care (the only thing that I wouldn't blow off is a mandatory UA and the BCA/PRT). If you've ever been a line officer, you know your own bullsh*t stinks, chances are that they wont harass you if you stand up to them. This is all personality-based. If you're the timid type who easily bows down to people (can't blame you: you're trying to please everyone), then yes you're going to be very frustrated in this job.

I've only been a GMO for a few months, and already I've blown off several meetings and mandatory evolutions because I was involved in some type of patient-care. No one said a word about it. Maybe I got lucky, I've got a great XO/CO who understand that I don't need to be at the 6th PB4T of the week, they'd rather I protocol that stat MRI.

You got lucky, or perhaps I got unlucky. My hospital commander came to the OR the last time I tried to blow something off, and pulled me out of a case to explain to me that I was wrong in going to he OR. I have tried to ignore these things, it doesn't work. It does depend upon your command. Just as I am willing to accept that there are commands where ignoring the situation works, I would expect that you might be able to understand that there are commands where it doesn't - nads or not, a few months of GMO time or not. Believe me when I say that there is literally nothing that they can do to me in terms of my military career that would even make me flinch, and I am probably the second most vocal person in my company about this kind of crap. The only guy here with bigger "nads" than myself was pulled out of his clinic to meet with the hospital commander, and told that if he didn't fall in line he would have his hospial privelages revoked until he could start following orders. That isn't just your military career, that's a line item in every professional application you'll ever fill out for the rest of your life: "Have you ever had your hospital privelages revoked?"

Obviously, that's easy to explain, if you're willing to take the punishment. So yes, I could put my head down and just accept any career-damagin punishment that they have to offer, but not practicing isn't helping my patients either.[/QUOTE]
 
You got lucky, or perhaps I got unlucky. My hospital commander came to the OR the last time I tried to blow something off, and pulled me out of a case to explain to me that I was wrong in going to he OR.
I can't imagine what you did to incur such wrath . . .If it really went down this way, then you did really have an A-hole of a CO, who him/herself should probably be disciplined.

I am probably the second most vocal person in my company about this kind of crap.
I would not be vocal. When I speak of having "nads", I don't mean the "nads" to mouth off. I tend to be on the quiet side, fly low under radar and do whatever I feel is right (especially when it comes to patient care). I haven't been challenged on anything yet, but admittedly I'm still junior in this business.
 
I can't imagine what you did to incur such wrath . . .If it really went down this way, then you did really have an A-hole of a CO, who him/herself should probably be disciplined.


I would not be vocal. When I speak of having "nads", I don't mean the "nads" to mouth off. I tend to be on the quiet side, fly low under radar and do whatever I feel is right (especially when it comes to patient care). I haven't been challenged on anything yet, but admittedly I'm still junior in this business.

I don't make $#!t up, nor to I appreciate the insinuation that I did. I don't accuse other people on this board of fabricating things, and I would expect the same respect especially from a junior in the business. If you didn't mean it that way, then so be it. Contrary to what your posts may suggest, I am not a fool nor am I clueless as to how to address a political situation with tact. I have tried to have the "nads" to duck and cover and fly under the radar. That worked for my previous partner, who is now retired. Since our last change of command, that has not been an option. There is no under the radar anymore. I have tried expressing my concerns vocally, and that works only slightly better in some carefully selected cases. I have raised a few key issues beyond my command to the level of my consultant, and that has worked when that sort of thing has been necessary. Perhaps you have some prior service from which you are drawing your expertise on these issues, and if so then I am glad that you have had success in the past. It shouldn't be difficult to accept the possibility that there are bad commands out there. I don't, nor have I ever, suggested that my experience is the standard in the Army or in the other services - rather, I have always maintained that it is a possibility that should be considered. That is because I don't assume that everyone else's experience is the same as my own. Nonetheless, I know from previous discussions both in person and on this board that I am not the only officer in the DoD medical corps who has had similar experiences. I would say it isn't even uncommon (seemingl moreso in the Army), but there could be some selection bias.

furthermore, we are way off topic in terms of the subject of his thread. I am happy to discuss these subjects (and have done so on other threads in the past) so long as that can be done in a respecftul manner, but it is probably better done on another thread or via messaging.
 
You got lucky, or perhaps I got unlucky. My hospital commander came to the OR the last time I tried to blow something off, and pulled me out of a case to explain to me that I was wrong in going to he OR. I have tried to ignore these things, it doesn't work. It does depend upon your command. Just as I am willing to accept that there are commands where ignoring the situation works, I would expect that you

I dont think you're making anything up. It stands to reason that there's two sides to a story: your CO isnt here to defend, hence my comment. Sounds like your a surgeon, you guys have it worse in milmed, no doubt.
 
I dont think you're making anything up. It stands to reason that there's two sides to a story: your CO isnt here to defend, hence my comment. Sounds like your a surgeon, you guys have it worse in milmed, no doubt.
That is true. And perhaps she felt that she had a good reason to pull me out of a case. My take would be that there is never a good reason to pull a surgeon out of a surgery with an unconscious patient in the room. Even if the building was on fire, that warrants maybe a heads up but probably not pulling someone out. In any case, if I misinterpreted your responses, then I apologise.

Edit: maybe if the surgeon was inebriated. That'd be a good reason.
 
I could buy that.

From my limited experience with PGY-2 match in the Navy...every once in a while the grade sheet can screw someone. It happened to a buddy of mine. He had a prior service applicant get a slot that everyone else in our internship class felt my buddy deserved more. But then again...the problem with the prior service applicant wasn't intelligence...it came down to personality/work ethic/abilities as an intern.

I have come across a handful of poor interns in my life and it really is a mixed bag as of the reason. One had difficulties with making a firm decision on care. Another was a gunner to the extent that he would stay later than the attending and would modified his notes to more closely follow the attending (and the dude was brilliant...he had absolutely no need to do it). Another was socially awkward and didn't communicate well. Another dumped work on others and did not have a good reputation with the senior residents. The last was a liability in terms of medical knowledge and practices...failed the COMLEX twice...and should have never made it to internship.
The only one of the five that would have received poor evaluations by traditional "non-score sheet" evaluations is the last candidate. But if measures from internship and fleet experience would have been considered, then I am pretty sure you would have been able to capture many more of those poor residents. And rest assured the liability intern did not get a PGY-2 spot over any higher qualified applicants.

Intelligence is important in medicine...no question...but you don't have to be brilliant to be a good resident. If I was a PD I would take a good candidate that did well in internship and fleet tour over a guy straight out of medical school that is book smart. I strongly believe that the best indicator of residency success is how someone did in internship...not medical school.

The score sheet usually puts the best applicants in the best programs. Yes a few are screwed in the process...but the same can be said of the "non-score sheet" evaluation process.

You may not need to be brilliant to be a good resident, but you may need a certain academic ability in order to pass the specialty's board exam. I have heard that this has been a problem when applicants with poor academic records are given spots over applicants with strong academic records. LCGME Accreditation can become an issue for small residencies. Also, most of the time, the student with the best track record will continue to be a strong resident.
 
My previous program director always said (and admittedly I've never looked it up) that research has demonstrated a correlation between strong medical school performance and board pass rates. That may just be for a select group of specialties, but he certainly bought into it hook, line, and sinker. We continue to have a 100% board pass rate at our training program, and have since it's conception. I know they always related that to getting strong medical school performers. It was always related to work ethic and the ability to absorb large amounts of information in a very small amount of time, which frankly is what residency is all about. That's why, I think, I never saw any sort of military rating sheet during our selection process - they didn't put any stock in it. They wanted strong academic performers who were easy to relate to.
 
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