Predentole

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Does being southeast asian (chinese, vietnamese, korean, etc) considered being a minority?

it better be..
 

jigabodo

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Nope, sorry. :(

(Actually, asians are minorities. But that doesn't mean much, since "under represented minorities" are what actullay matter).
 

La Dentista

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Nope, sorry. :(

(Actually, asians are minorities. But that doesn't mean much, since "under represented minorities" are what actullay matter).
What exactly are the "under represented minority's"?
Hispanics, African Americans? etc??
 

kema

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I swear i'm a minority, i have a slight tan, doesnt that count!
Wow buddy are you being a tad bit rxxxxx there bud? Lol kiddin funny though ahahahaha. :smuggrin::idea::rolleyes::D:):laugh:
 

Jaylee777

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Does being southeast asian (chinese, vietnamese, korean, etc) considered being a minority?

it better be..

No, Asians (which include east Indian) are not considered minorities when applying to dental school. Affirmative action type considerations (if there are any) do not apply. And just FYI- Southeast Asian ethnicities include Vietnamese, Laos, Cambodian, Thai, Indonesian, and others in the geographic areas south of China. Chinese and Korean are not correctly referred to as Southeast Asian.
 
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Predentole

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i think thats totally unfair

and i bet the person who made this restriction is non-asian
 

Blarelli

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i think thats totally unfair

and i bet the person who made this restriction is non-asian
Being treated like everybody else is unfair? How do you figure that?
 

doc3232

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Being asian actually hurts. Not to be stereotypical , but asians usually have very high grades. Its stats not an opinion.
 

StudentDentist

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Being treated like everybody else is unfair? How do you figure that?
It's unfair, because I want preferential treatment too! :D But hey, Asians comprise around 40% of the dental school population, so they're definately getting in. Look at the number of blacks within a given dental class, and you'll see that there's around one, maybe two, per class. The URM's are not really getting in by the masses.
 

jigabodo

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Not to start anything here, be it is infact unfair especially because asian americans are NOT treated like everyone else. This is slightly off topic but it's still relevant (admissions to college):

"A 2005 study by Princeton sociologists Thomas J. Espenshade and Chang Y. Chung compared the effects of affirmative action on racial and special groups at three highly selective private research universities. The data from the study represent admissions disadvantage and advantage in terms of SAT points (on the old 1600-point scale):
  • Blacks: +230
  • Hispanics: +185
  • Asians: –50
  • Recruited athletes: +200
  • Legacies (children of alumni): +160 "
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States

Report from the whole study can be found at http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/tje/espenshadessqptii.pdf
Wow, ouch.

But seriously, asians are actually "over represented" in the health related fields. That's why it doesn't really help to be one.
 

Blarelli

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http://www.jdentaled.org/cgi/content/full/68/8/880/T3

Newest stats I could find. Looks like asians are on par with everybody else as far as applied to accepted ratios in dental schools go.

As for asians being discriminated against, you can thank the groups above average smarts for that, as well as the schools policies. Universities using any form of preferential admissions treatment based on race are looking for 'diversity' among the student body. If one minority group is already well represented because they are more then competitive without the schools preferential treatment, then the number accepted is going to drop in favor of accepting members of a group that isn't represented to the number the school wants.
 

Immuno-guy

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Does being southeast asian (chinese, vietnamese, korean, etc) considered being a minority?

it better be..
No. You, despite being a minority (collectively, around 7% of US population) are not considered one. In my opinion, this ought to aggravate Asians everywhere in the US education system. Minority designation in the US only applies to specific minorities; primarily two who each outnumber them by double.

Despite all the difficulties of excelling in (what is often) a foreign education system, Asians have indeed done just that. Hence around 1/3 of all dental or medical students are Asian; the average household income for Asian households is nearly double that of non-Asian ones. 25% of ALL US doctors are Indian or of Indian decent! Kudos Asians.

As a white guy, I absolutely admire your collective dedication to excellence.

Please note: I do hope that none of the facts presented here are misinterpreted as 'positive' -stereotyping. They are not intended in any negative way.

Seriously, this situation is annoying enough as a white guy, but to be a genuine minority and be denied that status would make me livid.

It's funny to me that despite the genuine good nature of this reply I feel sure someone will be offended. What a world we live in.

Good luck to you all.
 

NismoDDS

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Wow buddy are you being a tad bit rxxxxx there bud? Lol kiddin funny though ahahahaha. :smuggrin::idea::rolleyes::D:):laugh:
damn u kema.. stole my avatar.. i guess we can share
 

firecracked

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No. You, despite being a minority (collectively, around 7% of US population) are not considered one. In my opinion, this ought to aggravate Asians everywhere in the US education system. Minority designation in the US only applies to specific minorities; primarily two who each outnumber them by double.

Despite all the difficulties of excelling in (what is often) a foreign education system, Asians have indeed done just that. Hence around 1/3 of all dental or medical students are Asian; the average household income for Asian households is nearly double that of non-Asian ones. 25% of ALL US doctors are Indian or of Indian decent! Kudos Asians.

As a white guy, I absolutely admire your collective dedication to excellence.
It does aggravate me. Asians don't get the minority treatment just because we're successful. In fact, it actually works against us. And Asians aren't special or better. It's not like we're genetically superior and have some unfair advantage over everyone else. We just have a different culture that emphasizes things like education and hard work and excellence, but those characteristics aren't at all exclusive to Asians. Other cultures value the same things, and any random person can decide they think those things are important and live by them and raise their families by them. So why should Asians be put at a disadvantage for that?

But it doesn't bother me so much in the sense that I feel personally slighted. I just feel like, in general, people should be based purely on merit rather than even considering race or ethnicity. In regards to any field/job/position (not just dentistry and medicine), shouldn't the most qualified people (however each school/company/etc wants to define what that is) be accepted regardless of their background? I don't see how the fact that my family was originally from India has any impact on me, the individual, and my particular capabilities and skills and intelligence.
 

jay47

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It does aggravate me. Asians don't get the minority treatment just because we're successful. In fact, it actually works against us. And Asians aren't special or better. It's not like we're genetically superior and have some unfair advantage over everyone else. We just have a different culture that emphasizes things like education and hard work and excellence, but those characteristics aren't at all exclusive to Asians. Other cultures value the same things, and any random person can decide they think those things are important and live by them and raise their families by them. So why should Asians be put at a disadvantage for that?

But it doesn't bother me so much in the sense that I feel personally slighted. I just feel like, in general, people should be based purely on merit rather than even considering race or ethnicity. In regards to any field/job/position (not just dentistry and medicine), shouldn't the most qualified people (however each school/company/etc wants to define what that is) be accepted regardless of their background? I don't see how the fact that my family was originally from India has any impact on me, the individual, and my particular capabilities and skills and intelligence.
I think that you guys may be overexaggerating what is going on here. Dental schools (from what I know/feel from admissions) will always only accept qualified people whom they know can complete the requirements (or have the capbility to). Lets say "x" black person has slightly lower grades, but they came from a bad town and didn't have a very good high school education,that CAN affect their college experience and ability to do exceptionally well, even if they want to. They may also have to work full time while in school full time, this also affects their grades.

However, just because someone is black/hispanic/minority they will not just get accepted in most cases. They still have to meet certain criteria and if they have been at a disadvantage their entire life, they will have the opportunity to show that while applying. However, note that this is only 30 lines in the application as opposed to like 60 as in "why did you choose this field" question, at least here in Texas.

I think the schools keep it as fair as possible. I admit, I have had a good life. My parents paid for college, at least what I didn't get paid by scholarships. I did not work at a job, however I have worked my tail off in school simply because I am a hard worker at whatever I do. I understand that there may be others who have to get a job in school, and others who came from a bad high school, which is why I said that above. I don't mean to offend anyone, this is simply my opinion and hopefully it will clear things up.
 
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Predentole

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What organization sets this ridiculous set of guidelines for minorities? It REALLY aggravates me knowing that I'm not a minority even though we make up a rough estimate of 5% of America. With that said, most asians in college now are either first or second generation families to even live in this country.

I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say but I actually feel like writing whoever sets these minorities guidelines, a letter, which argues all of this.
 

StudentDentist

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What organization sets this ridiculous set of guidelines for minorities? It REALLY aggravates me knowing that I'm not a minority even though we make up a rough estimate of 5% of America. With that said, most asians in college now are either first or second generation families to even live in this country.

I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say but I actually feel like writing whoever sets these minorities guidelines, a letter, which argues all of this.
Then go to UCLA or UCSF. Affirmative action is illegal in California (for public schools anyway), so as a result, URMs virtually don't exist at UCSF/LA. They're a prime example of what'll happen when you remove AA.
 

jigabodo

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What organization sets this ridiculous set of guidelines for minorities? It REALLY aggravates me knowing that I'm not a minority even though we make up a rough estimate of 5% of America. With that said, most asians in college now are either first or second generation families to even live in this country.

I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say but I actually feel like writing whoever sets these minorities guidelines, a letter, which argues all of this.
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services:

"underrepresented minority means, with respect to a health profession, racial and ethnic populations that are under-represented in the health profession relative to the number of individuals who are members of the population involved."
 

StudentDentist

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U.S. Department of Health and Human Services:

"underrepresented minority means, with respect to a health profession, racial and ethnic populations that are under-represented in the health profession relative to the number of individuals who are members of the population involved."
Incorrect. They may define what underrepresented minority means, but the schools themselves determine who they accept. They can accept whoever they want. If they want to accept blacks with lower scores, then they'll do so. If you think it's unfair, call up the director of admissions and express your dissatisfaction with them. (Then tell then you'll be applying to their fine institution)
 

I-Baby

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What organization sets this ridiculous set of guidelines for minorities? It REALLY aggravates me knowing that I'm not a minority even though we make up a rough estimate of 5% of America. With that said, most asians in college now are either first or second generation families to even live in this country.

I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say but I actually feel like writing whoever sets these minorities guidelines, a letter, which argues all of this.
I don't think that they are denying the fact that Asians are minorities, but the fact of the matter is that in the field, Asians are well represented. Though it may "help" those who identify themselves as URMs, its not like admissions committees are randomly picking people, hoping that they will succeed. Like jay47 said, they accept qualified applicants that they are confident will do well. I understand your frustrations, but when you look at the overall scheme of things you can see that the NEED for dentists that are considered URM is overwhelming. Without that need I don't think such measures would be in existence and I don't think it is being done to piss off everyone not considered a minority.
 

SHC1984

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Then go to UCLA or UCSF. Affirmative action is illegal in California (for public schools anyway), so as a result, URMs virtually don't exist at UCSF/LA. They're a prime example of what'll happen when you remove AA.
And thats a bad thing? Affirmative action should be illegal in EVERY state...(yes I think a person should be accepted by merits and merits only...)
 

jigabodo

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Incorrect. They may define what underrepresented minority means, but the schools themselves determine who they accept. They can accept whoever they want. If they want to accept blacks with lower scores, then they'll do so. If you think it's unfair, call up the director of admissions and express your dissatisfaction with them. (Then tell then you'll be applying to their fine institution)
Listen, when did I ever say that AA is unfair? The OP asked for a source for the definition, and I simply JUST GAVE IT TO HIM/HER.

Don't get me wrong, affirmative action can indeed be quite a sensative topic at times. But I am sure I did NOTHING wrong to warrant this type of reaction. I just merely answered one question. That's it.
 

StudentDentist

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Listen, when did I ever say that AA is unfair? The OP asked for a source for the definition, and I simply JUST GAVE IT TO HIM/HER.

Don't get me wrong, affirmative action can indeed be quite a sensative topic at times. But I am sure I did NOTHING wrong to warrant this type of reaction. I just merely answered one question. That's it.
it wasn't addressed to you. If you (you generally, not you jig) have a problem with a school's admissions policy, talk to their director of admissions.
 

StudentDentist

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And thats a bad thing? Affirmative action should be illegal in EVERY state...(yes I think a person should be accepted by merits and merits only...)
It's neither good nor bad. I'm not making a judgement call. Both UCLA and UCSF currently has 2 hispanics each in the class of 2012. No blacks or native americans (from what I can see). The remainder are white, asian, indian, persian, ...etc. That's the world without affirmative action.
 

La Dentista

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Yup, and also American Indians.
Bingo, good.

My great Grandpa was American Indian and I have family living on reservations out west.
What is required from me to prove this connection though? I am not close with the American Indian side of my family, which documents would I need?
 

Jaylee777

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I think that you guys may be overexaggerating what is going on here. Dental schools (from what I know/feel from admissions) will always only accept qualified people whom they know can complete the requirements (or have the capbility to). Lets say "x" black person has slightly lower grades, but they came from a bad town and didn't have a very good high school education,that CAN affect their college experience and ability to do exceptionally well, even if they want to. They may also have to work full time while in school full time, this also affects their grades.

However, just because someone is black/hispanic/minority they will not just get accepted in most cases. They still have to meet certain criteria and if they have been at a disadvantage their entire life, they will have the opportunity to show that while applying. However, note that this is only 30 lines in the application as opposed to like 60 as in "why did you choose this field" question, at least here in Texas.

I think the schools keep it as fair as possible. I admit, I have had a good life. My parents paid for college, at least what I didn't get paid by scholarships. I did not work at a job, however I have worked my tail off in school simply because I am a hard worker at whatever I do. I understand that there may be others who have to get a job in school, and others who came from a bad high school, which is why I said that above. I don't mean to offend anyone, this is simply my opinion and hopefully it will clear things up.
Im guessing you support the idea of affirmative action. Not trying to bag on you but because you didnt have to work and came from a "good" high school is most likely why you sympathize with these beliefs that fuel affirmative action. People overcome these things all the time (whatever race) from hard work and dedication. How do you think those people that are not considered URM but had to grow up in the same circumstances and have achieved the same level of qualifications as everyone feel? I bet they dont like the idea that someone from the same circumstances with lower qualifications may get preferential treatment just because they are URM. All it takes is that first person to rise above (because of their own merit) and succeed so their future family wont have as hard of a time as they did. I may just be speaking for myself, but successful Asian people feel so strongly against affirmative action just for this reason. Didnt immigrants of Asian descent have to rise above discrimination and poorer communities at some point as well?

There are laws and policies in place that already offset these environmental disadvantages? In Texas, the top 10 percent of every graduating high school class is guaranteed by law to get a spot at a public university (UT, Texas A&M, etc.). So even if you came from a bad high school, you can still go to the college that the kid that had everything wants to go to...as long you put in the work to get in that 10 percent of your "not so great" high school.

It shouldnt be about trying to level the playing field. The best and brightest should rightfully go to the best schools and get the best jobs regardless of race. Just like the biggest and strongest become professional athletes. What if the nba started allowing under represented races in the nba to take an extra step before called for traveling....that would be ******ed.

What makes this country so great is that you can do anything if you work hard enough. Trying to implement ways to put everyone at the same level isnt fair...it should be about survival of the fittest. THis might be a little extreme but I tend to get a little worked up on this topic- Why dont we just move toward communism then? make everyone the same and do away with social and economic classes...bring everyone to the same level? :thumbdown: with affirmative action.

just my 2 cents...
 

firecracked

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......
just my 2 cents...
I completely agree.

Basically, there is nothing holding people back other than themselves. We are steadily becoming more socialist, but as of now, America is still the land of opportunity. You can do anything you want, and you can succeed. Racism and poverty and bad schools and all the other things that people like to point to as to why they are "underprivilged" and deserve a special status and special programs -- those things will only hold you back if you let it. People overcome those circumstances every day, and they've been doing it for decades. There's no secret to it - all it takes is hard work.

Asians haven't had an easier history in the US than any other minority. Remember the ban against Chinese immigration? Remember the US throwing Japanese into camps during WW2? Those are only large-scale examples and don't include the racism experienced on an individual basis all over the country. Countless Asians have faced racism and discrimination and lived in poverty - but still they worked their way up.

So again, I'd imagine you'd be upset, too, if you saw people getting special treatment because of their disadvantaged background when you and your family came from the same exact background but worked hard to make yourselves just as competitive as everyone else.
 

bounty101

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What organization sets this ridiculous set of guidelines for minorities? It REALLY aggravates me knowing that I'm not a minority even though we make up a rough estimate of 5% of America. With that said, most asians in college now are either first or second generation families to even live in this country.

I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say but I actually feel like writing whoever sets these minorities guidelines, a letter, which argues all of this.
Quit whining that you need a helping hand to get into dental school. You sound like you love the idea of affirmative action; but then when you learn what it's meant for and realize it doesn't help you, you hate it. If you think racial groups need special treatment, shouldn't caucasian people get some since they are underrepresented now in dental school? It's really lame to demand preferential treatment because of your race, but even more so when your race is overrepresented.
 

bluejellybelly

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What organization sets this ridiculous set of guidelines for minorities? It REALLY aggravates me knowing that I'm not a minority even though we make up a rough estimate of 5% of America. With that said, most asians in college now are either first or second generation families to even live in this country.

I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say but I actually feel like writing whoever sets these minorities guidelines, a letter, which argues all of this.
You sound like you really need that consideration in order to be accepted to dental school.

Asians and south east asians are actually FAIRLY represented in the health field. So please, quit your whining. If you have good grades , EC's, and LORs, nothing's going to stop you from getting in. Do you feel like your application needs the URM booster in order to get in? Tough luck, because URMs are only meant to boost the demographic that are the "minority" in the specific health field.

I know, someone's probably going to bring up that putting others in favor puts the rest in jeopardy, but seriously, as long as your application's good, you're likely to get in some where.
 
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Predentole

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Actually, I don't need the extra boost. This is just a subject of ethics I wanted to vent on because it bothers me that asians are not considered minorities not only in the health field, but in everything else. And this isn't whining, its giving a piece of my mind.


You sound like you really need that consideration in order to be accepted to dental school.

Asians and south east asians are actually FAIRLY represented in the health field. So please, quit your whining. If you have good grades , EC's, and LORs, nothing's going to stop you from getting in. Do you feel like your application needs the URM booster in order to get in? Tough luck, because URMs are only meant to boost the demographic that are the "minority" in the specific health field.

I know, someone's probably going to bring up that putting others in favor puts the rest in jeopardy, but seriously, as long as your application's good, you're likely to get in some where.
 

ejcivicdee

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when you say southeast Asians, you are including to many Asians in that category. Not all Asians are minorities but the ones that are like Laos, Cambodians, Hmongs, and more along those lines. Asians like now Vietnamese, Indians, Chinese, Korean, etc and most of the orient Asians are not.
 

SHC1984

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It's neither good nor bad. I'm not making a judgement call. Both UCLA and UCSF currently has 2 hispanics each in the class of 2012. No blacks or native americans (from what I can see). The remainder are white, asian, indian, persian, ...etc. That's the world without affirmative action.
Sounds fair to me. :thumbup:
 

Resonance

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Bingo, good.

My great Grandpa was American Indian and I have family living on reservations out west.
What is required from me to prove this connection though? I am not close with the American Indian side of my family, which documents would I need?
I think you just need your tribal papers to verify your lineage. You would be in rare company as only 55 applied last year. As opposed to the 2468 Asians (as of Nov ‘07) which was 25% of the total applicants, 476 for Blacks, and 406 for Latinos (as of Nov ‘07).

I do not mean to belabor the point, but when you add up the underrepresented minorities (937) and dividing that by the total applicants at the time (9865), you see that sum of these three groups make up only 9% of the total applicants. Which is why these groups are considered underrepresented, these statistics also are very similar to what we see when comparing the demographics of practicing dentists.
 

arpitpatel86

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so my dad is actually indian but he was born in africa.....so would i be considered half-african?
 

doc3232

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so my dad is actually indian but he was born in africa.....so would i be considered half-african?
If you don't look black (I am assuming you look indian) then you will look very foolish when interviews come around. It will probably annoy interviewers to see someone claim they are african-american when they are not.
 

Sephisabin

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No, you're not African... you're Indian. Both my parents were born in Africa but they're still full Indian... as am I.

To the OP: I don't understand why you're fighting so hard to be considered a minority for dental school. As stated above, asians are 7% of the US population yet account for close to 40% of dental school students... are you saying that dental schools need to consider asians minorities because they're underrepresented in the field, or do you just want the title for the sake of having the title?
 

Amalgam4U

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http://www.jdentaled.org/cgi/content/full/68/8/880/T3

Newest stats I could find. Looks like asians are on par with everybody else as far as applied to accepted ratios in dental schools go.

As for asians being discriminated against, you can thank the groups above average smarts for that, as well as the schools policies. Universities using any form of preferential admissions treatment based on race are looking for 'diversity' among the student body. If one minority group is already well represented because they are more then competitive without the schools preferential treatment, then the number accepted is going to drop in favor of accepting members of a group that isn't represented to the number the school wants.
While it does look like asians are on par with everyone else, that's because in that comparison asians are competing with themselves, as are the rest of the minorities. i.e. Asians have to beat 1/2 the other asians to get in, and Hispanics also have to beat 1/2 the other hispanics. If average GPAs and DAT's were also given for the various groups and they were also the same, then I could also agree that there was no racial bias.

However, being Asian myself, I also believe in the value of a diversified classroom in expanding my own worldviews and tolerances. Diversity in life experiences, culture, and personality I think add to the value of the class as a whole. Really, what good is "survival of the fittest" (an unjust comparison if you ask me) if there is no variation?

In addition to what a diversified classroom can bring, I also think that racism is still around. "Institutionalized racism" is the cycle that I think URM's are in. Many cannot break free of this cycle. You grew up as a "model minority." What type of minority is that in relation to? While I don't believe America should be devoid of classes etc, I do believe that there should be equal opportunity to pursue an education. And if you believe that in urban areas everyone has an equal opportunity to get an education, I don't think you're being truthful with your analysis. By the fact that you can access these forums AT ALL indicates to me that you have an advantage over many many people, not the least of which are URM's.

True, no one should be judged for an individual seat on the basis of a group's experience or group's performance. But to be honest, I highly doubt that anyone is. Do you think that an admission's director will say to himself, "hmm, this Asian person is highly qualified, but he's Asian...we already have too many of those. I'm going to let this unqualified candidate in because he's Mexican." No. Adcom's aren't looking for only numbers. Are dentists just test-takers and number generators? No again! Dentists are people and face real life challenges. While you may have superior numbers to a URM, maybe he's demonstrated an ability to succeed in the face of challenges (bigger than I'm Asian and there are so many other Asians in school I might not get in) with a good attitude and positive outlook on life.

Be thankful that your parents or grandparents worked hard to get you into this country and that you are fortunate enough to have this opportunity. Honestly, the fact that you may have better numbers, doesn't change the fact that you may not be a better candidate.

Plus you don't have to mention your race at all.
 

emg

10+ Year Member
May 1, 2008
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U.S. Department of Health and Human Services:

"underrepresented minority means, with respect to a health profession, racial and ethnic populations that are under-represented in the health profession relative to the number of individuals who are members of the population involved."
Will "Armenian" be considered an underrepresented minority?
who grew up in Moscow, Russia... moved to US 5 years ago, and speaks Russian only? :)

Seriously, do you think I will be considered an underrepresented minority?
 

doc toothache

10+ Year Member
Jan 17, 2006
8,135
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Dentist
It's neither good nor bad. I'm not making a judgement call. Both UCLA and UCSF currently has 2 hispanics each in the class of 2012. No blacks or native americans (from what I can see). The remainder are white, asian, indian, persian, ...etc. That's the world without affirmative action.
You already have the stats for the 2012 class?

It's unfair, because I want preferential treatment too! :D But hey, Asians comprise around 40% of the dental school population, so they're definately getting in. Look at the number of blacks within a given dental class, and you'll see that there's around one, maybe two, per class. The URM's are not really getting in by the masses.
Your numbers are a bit on the high side. For 2007 the % of Asian Americans was at 21 while the overall minority was at 40.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=503758
 

arpitpatel86

10+ Year Member
May 9, 2008
104
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what about asians whites blacks that are poor and when i mean poor i mean that they are getting pell grants and stuff.....are those kids able to be listed as underrepresented? is there some1 u can put that on DAT i know it sounds like a stupid question but just curious