miserable at job

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psychdoc83

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hey guys,
so i am absolutely miserable at my current job. it is a hospital employed position in a rural part of the southeast with tremendous demand. Call it being naive but i took this job straight out of residency a year and a half ago because it is in my hometown. It is a hospital employed position, salary of $230 plus rvu bonus, mix of inpatient/consults and outpatient. call is q 5 weeknights and q 4-5 weekends plus holidays.

basically i realized that i am being taken to the cleaners with the low salary and very high call due to the demand here in this area. I do not have a non-compete clause and i am getting ready to resign (have to provide a 3 month notice) and i am really looking to just go to a cash based practice. To anyone who has made the leap like this how difficult was it to break away from the hospital and just do cash? i would love to opt out of medicare and literally have an office with a chair, filing cabinet and an app to take credit cards.

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"rural"

I suspect this will be difficult.

Cash is hard to do in small cities or rural areas without a burgeoning economy. The local population is woefully underserved. One reason your salary is so low is because a large swaths of the patients are Medicare/Medicaid and can't afford anything else, and the service itself is likely losing money.

Cash in and of itself, however, would not be hard if you relocate to a well off suburb of Charlotte or Charleston and do some marketing. Nevertheless--I'm from there though don't practice there, and have explored options in the Carolinas-- it is apparent that the insurance taking group model is still fairly dominant. I would consider using this three month period to call some practice groups in the areas you are interested in to see if they are interested in taking on a partner track associate, and shop your resume around. Typically these groups have an overwhelming number of patients, and are happy to take you on as long as they do a fairly inequitable profit sharing to start, but if the managing partners are reasonable people they will eventually keep you. This is a better system IMHO if you need staff support for billing etc. One trick of the trade after talking to various people: I've found that PhD run groups to be more exploitative than MD run groups--just something to be mindful of--they typically don't bring on MD partners. This tendency is especially strong for young female MDs who don't negotiate as aggressively with old PhD owners , who are often old white men (sometimes women), and they don't run their business particularly well (as MDs and PhDs often have no sense of business) but have an overinflated sense of their value, when actually the current market dictum is that the MDs exceed PhD values BY FAR, especially in the South. People want meds, and are also far far less picky about their MD than their therapist. People tend to gender/age-sort for therapist, a tendency not found nearly as strongly for MDs. MDs also keep more patients for longer since they don't see them as frequently, hence serve as a deep pool for referrals on a recurrent basis, as people might need therapy only sporadically. I have a friend who took a locum part time with a PhD group getting 60:40 and is regretting it big time because literally she's giving them referrals from day one as opposed to the other way around. She's gonna do cash on the side soon. She's geri, too, and will probably take Medicare, but even with the cut with a biller she'll still probably make 2x on her own (99213+90833 ~ $150-175). As professionals trickle from the NE/California to "the New South", expectations also change, and it's not unusual now to have suburban Atlanta combined med/therapy practices that are pure cash.

You can do your own thing, and take a couple of commercial insurances. I have friends who do this. It's not *that* hard, though credentialing typically takes 3-6 months as well, so you might as well start now. You will fill immediately regardless of where you are, unless you stay in a small desolate town with mostly publicly insured. Thankfully insurance credentialing goes with location, not clinician. So you can in theory have two practice locations, and do cash at one and insurance at another. Given commercial real estate is dirt cheap in the south, I would consider that to start as well. The other thing is this is much less common in psychiatry but very common in primary care: membership based part insurance concierge direct care model. You charge $150 membership a month, and don't take anyone who isn't interested in at least monthly psychotherapy. Bill insurance only for whatever is reimbursed, but total revenue will be high with 50-100 patients. This is apparently 100% legal (Concierge care | Medicare.gov), but it may be useful to get a special lawyer/service to draft the agreement for compliance.

Bottomline, if you are at somewhere like Greensboro or smaller, and you want to do cash, you should probably move to a bigger town and target professionals. You can still visit your parents on occasion with a 2-4 hour drive. As is with all things in life, location and marketing is absloute KEY to a successful cash practice.

Things are very local, FYI. Florida, for example is a totally different story. There are very few insurance groups down the east coastal areas all the way up to Boca. Everyone's cash. Miami psychiatrists charge just as much as LA psychiatrists. I think it has to do with South American influences--Argentinians for example have a very strong history of psychoanalysis and everyone who's wealthy has an analyst.
 
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I suspect your job should be paying 300k+ given the demand and call schedule. Good that you're leaving, I'm sure you'll get a lot of invaluable advice from this board as we have many knowledgeable members on here.
 
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I suspect your job should be paying 300k+ given the demand and call schedule. Good that you're leaving, I'm sure you'll get a lot of invaluable advice from this board as we have many knowledgeable members on here.

Not sure if this is true since NPs will do it for much less
 
Not sure if this is true since NPs will do it for much less

I have literally never had a negotiation, nor heard from a colleague who has gone through negotiation, nor had an interview experience, where a lower salary is justified based on what NP's cost. Since i joined this forum people have only become more and more paranoid about NP's destroying the system and bringing down our salaries, and in the same time the complete opposite has happened. If the poster would like to make $300k in an employed rural position, he can do so.
 
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Thank you for all the replies.
I agree that for the amount of call I should be banking at least $300k which is why i am not tolerating this any longer. Our town is only a little over an hour outside of a major city in the southeast so i believe that i could draw patients able to pay cash due to the extreme shortage of psychiatrists here.
I really appreciate all of the input/advice
 
hey guys,
so i am absolutely miserable at my current job. it is a hospital employed position in a rural part of the southeast with tremendous demand. Call it being naive but i took this job straight out of residency a year and a half ago because it is in my hometown. It is a hospital employed position, salary of $230 plus rvu bonus, mix of inpatient/consults and outpatient. call is q 5 weeknights and q 4-5 weekends plus holidays.

basically i realized that i am being taken to the cleaners with the low salary and very high call due to the demand here in this area. I do not have a non-compete clause and i am getting ready to resign (have to provide a 3 month notice) and i am really looking to just go to a cash based practice. To anyone who has made the leap like this how difficult was it to break away from the hospital and just do cash? i would love to opt out of medicare and literally have an office with a chair, filing cabinet and an app to take credit cards.
It's not clear if you're resigning because they aren't paying you enough, or if you just don't like being so busy, or both. If it's just the low pay, I'd imagine you could get your salary increased, because if you leave they'll have to hire a locums doc which costs a lot more than you.
 
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It's not clear if you're resigning because they aren't paying you enough, or if you just don't like being so busy, or both. If it's just the low pay, I'd imagine you could get your salary increased, because if you leave they'll have to hire a locums doc which costs a lot more than you.

Having now had some insider's look at how some facilities work, this is not necessarily the case. Typically, at facilities driven by state or federal (i.e. VA) line budgets, salary lines cannot be changed unless by senior administrative advisory, which can take years to complete. At Medicaid driven private facilities (i.e. your typical low-end community non-profit that's struggling to survive, or private pill mill), salaries are low because reimbursement is low and since tied to Medicaid cannot be negotiated. In this case, the more patients you see, the more money the facility loses. From a purely financial perspective they'd be happy you quit.

In this case, locums are NOT hired at market rates--they might put out an ad halfheartedly for a really low rate once a while. Vacant spots can be left unfilled for years. Sporadically someone comes on board for locum due to "family reasons" for 6 months. You can ask the chief for a pay raise, and if he/she is rooting for you and has connections, might ask for a temporary block grant from a govt agency to supplement, but such requests are often denied and require a TON of paperwork, which the chief might not be willing to do as he's trying to make sure that the ER doesn't get shut down because they are also Medicaid dependent. Often the state govt says we'll have a 1M block grant for your whole facility for FY2018, you can pick and choose what you want. So the chief says this is your salary take it or leave it. You leave. Patients don't get seen and at times kill themselves or overdose. No one cares. MAYBE the hospital gets sued, in which case it goes bankrupt or goes under federal/state protectorship, and a previously underserved community now has NO service at all. Or they hire a temp/part time NP and pay 50k for 10 hours a week of med management--prepare for lines out of the door. Meanwhile, the PMDs at the facility are pulling their hair out trying to get someone to write antipsychotics and the surgeons are quitting en mass because everyone has "chronic pain".

You still won't see a pay raise ;-)

Glibness aside--and believe you me these are not atypical scenarios---I'm half convinced that this is a HUGE reason for the decline of the rust belt--insufficient investment of healthcare as a "soft" infrastructure. Medicaid needs to pay MORE for quality doctors to go into less desirable areas, but instead it's typically pegged to population size. Population centers benefit from economy of scale. This is another one of those things where healthcare cost control (esp. when coupled with a fee4service model), typically with good intentions, is associated with negative externalities... There are solutions, usually involving large integrated care systems (basically you build a publicly funded transportation/coordination system--bus rural folks on Medicaid to a large centralized "medical home" like Geisinger), but various entities are fighting (i.e. patients vastly prefer local community hospital over a govt contracted Walmart, and for good reasons). Telepsychiatry is another method, and the largest telepsych agencies are literally doing that (paying $130-150 an hour covering rural mental health with mostly Medicaid). In fact, you can do INPATIENT telepsych now. What if I tell you that you can do the same job for 230k but 100% telepsych? It now seems a lot more attractive doesn't it? Progress is slow... I could go on...
 
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At Medicaid driven private facilities (i.e. your typical low-end community non-profit that's struggling to survive, or private pill mill), salaries are low because reimbursement is low and since tied to Medicaid cannot be negotiated. In this case, the more patients you see, the more money the facility loses. From a purely financial perspective they'd be happy you quit.

So, the only solution for descent reimbursement would be private practice seeing commercial insurance/ cash ?
 
So, the only solution for descent reimbursement would be private practice seeing commercial insurance/ cash ?

Not at all. Kaiser NorCal pays 300k now for 40 hours outpatient. Large ACOs on the East Coast are getting close to that number. California State/Prison system also closing in on 300k. NYCHHC is paying $200 an hour for outpatient locum--because they literally can't get anyone to write scripts in the boroughs for less than that number. Patients got together and complained constantly. And they STILL have problem filling, and basically offer people jobs over the phone LOL. Kaiser is constantly hiring and still can't get people (mostly due to their high workload). Other well run systems (i.e. Intermountain, other large chains in the south etc.) also very commonly offer 250k-350k. The other thing is often you become quickly "medical director" after a year or two at such facilities doing the same job, which bump your salary 50k from say the 250k base.

You can get high salary numbers ("decent reimbursement") in the public system if you run the system "correctly" or if the system decides that it cares enough about psychiatry even if the direct reimbursement loses money because it's an "essential service".

That said, fair warning: institutions wait on filling jobs they deem "desirable" and they want low turnover. Hence I think if you are looking for high salary in the public/large ACO system, training/work history (i.e. residency brand, etc.) and strong recommendations from "known people" will (still) be important. Kaiser may always have jobs to fill every year at 300k, and "have problem fill it", you just might not be the one who gets that job. But they won't tell you because they want to advertise that 300k number to attract people they deem "quality" and won't leave, and plus, when you work for a large system, there are other considerations in setting salary lines (i.e. federal labor laws, etc.) that says you can't pay different people different rates if there's perceived inequity for reasons other than their "training". And residency brand etc (esp. if lower branded programs are associated with other protected class features) cannot be used as a reason to change salary once hired or else the institutions might face lawsuits or EEOC investigations (this is a real HR thing). And there are other quotas for "strategic missions" which really just translates to relationships, as often institutions say they want to hire someone who has expertise in X Y Z, but in the end hire someone else upon someone's recommendation that this person has the potential for X Y Z---meanwhile, this other person has a clear track record of X Y Z but isn't even on the feasible candidate list because: 1) FMG/low tier community residency program 2) no connections 3) "collegiality"/interview "fit" 4) "leadership"/"administrative experience", which is really just associated with 2+3. Meanwhile, people with resumes they do want are already making bank doing cash in Silicon Valley. Because, guess what, those are who tech executives want to coddle them for $500 an hour as well. This only pushes the salaries even higher.

Not making judgements, just telling you the rules of the game if you want a "good job" in a large, mainly govt reimbursement driven system.

This whole thing is, not surprisingly, very reminiscent of the pitfalls of socialism. There are definitely good jobs and high quality things in communist Russia, but you either have to wait in line and hope your lottery ticket goes somewhere, or have "relationships"...salary caps and hard salary line budgets removed cash in the system, but scarcity remains and becomes embedded in other, "dark", forms of currency (social capital, implicit regulatory control, outright bribery, etc.)

Or you can just go American the whole way, be private, full control: there are some psychiatrists pulling >500k a year. In general if that's the kind of numbers for "decent reimbursement" in your books, then yes you would be right: high-end cash or running large commercial groups.
 
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It's not clear if you're resigning because they aren't paying you enough, or if you just don't like being so busy, or both. If it's just the low pay, I'd imagine you could get your salary increased, because if you leave they'll have to hire a locums doc which costs a lot more than you.
at this point i am very distrustful of the admin of this small hospital and realize that I am getting the shaft regarding this low salary and very high call demand. Call it being a naive new attending but I only took this job to get back to my hometown (happy wife, happy life). I however have become miserable with the constant call demands and realizing that some that I graduated residency are making considerably more than me with little to no call. I would prefer to start a cash practice however I am also exploring the possibility of taking 1-2 private insurers and a mix of cash.
 
hey guys,
so i am absolutely miserable at my current job. it is a hospital employed position in a rural part of the southeast with tremendous demand. Call it being naive but i took this job straight out of residency a year and a half ago because it is in my hometown. It is a hospital employed position, salary of $230 plus rvu bonus, mix of inpatient/consults and outpatient. call is q 5 weeknights and q 4-5 weekends plus holidays.

basically i realized that i am being taken to the cleaners with the low salary and very high call due to the demand here in this area. I do not have a non-compete clause and i am getting ready to resign (have to provide a 3 month notice) and i am really looking to just go to a cash based practice. To anyone who has made the leap like this how difficult was it to break away from the hospital and just do cash? i would love to opt out of medicare and literally have an office with a chair, filing cabinet and an app to take credit cards.

I think you should be careful also with new contract updates. A place I worked with similar set up, got wind of resignation and devised contract updates. If they gave you sign up bonus, perhaps you should also review if there are any stipulations with the sign up bonus.

A non-compete may not exist on paper, but they have the power of an established institution in the area. Its not going be difficult to out market or make your practice a challenge. Why not leave town?
 
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