"Mommy Track"

Started by wyola
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My point about making up your maternity leave in residency at the end is that in a big enough residency, there are probably always going to be one or two women out, but then there will also be others left over from the previous year making up their time and contributing to the call mix. So it does balance out overall. The bedrest is another issue, and no one can predict a complicated pregnancy. That could be viewed the same as someone getting sick and needing an extended leave for any reason. You could argue that these individuals made the choice to get pregnant, but that is not always true. And granted being pregnant as a resident makes one automatically high risk, but no more so than any other stressful, demanding job.
 
"going part time

as a

TEACHING

attending

In academia

IMMEDIATELY

after finishing residency.

I've got a problem with that since the

MOMMYOLOGIST'S PRIORITIES ARE FIRST

AND THE RESIDENT'S PRIORITIES ARE LAST

in this equation"

In response to this, where I was a resident, these attendings were usually put in a room by themselves because they needed experience going it alone. Everyone, including the mommyologists, recognized this. So it depends on the program, but the mommyologist isn't necessarily going to be assigned to do a lot of teaching. In a large program, there are varying manpower needs, and these individuals can be utilized to help fill in gaps, which helps the program so that residents don't have to cover some of the less desirable cases, and helps the mommyologists so that they can get independent experience. It's a win-win.
 
USAnesthesiaDoc said:
Hi, All. I haven't posted in a while now but do enjoy reading here. For what it's worth, here is my situation, which is probably a little different from most. I would not consider myself a mommyologist at all. I'm a full partner in a private practice, and I take the most call in my group of about 15 call takers. I am a married woman whose husband is not a physician, and I have 2 kids.

I had my first child as a CA-2, and made up the 8 weeks I took for maternity leave at the end of my CA-3 year. During that 8 week make up time, I took call, so the calls were put back into my program and none of my colleagues lost out. And every year, there were 1 or 2 women residents who were pregnant in my program, so it all evened out because they all had to make up their time and call. I also never called out for a sick child and never took a sick day for myself, and worked right up until I delivered.

I had my second child about a year ago as a full time private practice partner. I took full call assignments until I was 36 weeks pregnant, and then worked full time except for overnight call after that until the day before I was induced at 39 weeks. In my private practice group, you get paid to take call, so my partners were happy to scoop up the call I didn't take while I was in my 9th month and for the 8 weeks of UNPAID maternity leave I took. Our group was obviously large enough that it wasn't an undue burden for my partners to pick up my call, and as I said, they were HAPPY to do it because they made more money. I informed my chief as soon as I discovered I was pregnant, so that he could plan for manpower needs for my expected leave, and given that he had 7 months notice, it was not a problem.

I immediately went back to full time, full call when I returned to work when my 2nd child was 8 weeks old. I am a great financial provider for my family, and my older child who is a 7 year old girl, respects and loves her doctor mother.

So you can do it all in private practice and have a family and not be a burden to your partners. I am extremely well-respected by my colleagues (surgeons and anesthesiologists), and I work very hard and do all types of cases on my own including OB, regional, thoracic, vascular, neuro, and peds (except for cardiac cases, which are not done at my hospital).
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respect👍👍
 
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It has been my (admittedly limited) experience that there is not necessarily a correlation between years' experience and teaching ability. I have worked with ex-PP attendings at both my institutions (med school and residency) and some are phenomenal, and some have no clue what "teaching" actually is.

For instance, as a CA-1 I haven't had a ton of experience with peds (CA-2 rotation here), but I'm getting a bunch on my ENT month. It's on the whole a very sphincter-tightening experience since I'm not particularly confident of my adult skills yet. So when I'm extubating a kid who is bucking, and I'm all like "OK, he's probably going through Stage 2, this is a TERRIBLE time to extubate," and my attending is like "Pull the tube, trust me," that doesn't help. Particularly when I start to open my mouth, and he says, "I've been doing this for 30 years, and it would take me another 30 to figure out how to tell you I knew it was going to be OK," I don't know enough to know if he's ******ed, lucky, brilliant, or all 3.

Obviously, we'd all love to learn from brilliant ex-PP dudes/dudettes who've been doing MD-only for 30 years, but c'mon, how realistic is that. I don't care how old you are, what gender you are, how many kids you have, or how often you work, if you can teach me something useful that will make me a better anesthesiologist.
 
Scenario #1:
A colleague has an opportunity to take a once in a lifetime, out of the country, vacation that will last 4 weeks. They approach the group and ask to use all of their vacation for the year all at once on this vacation. It will mean a couple extra calls to cover for them in their absence. However, they vow to take an extra call burden spread out through the rest of the year to make it up. If it did not impact you in any other way, would you be willing to do this for your colleague? Would you think less of them after they returned? Would you harbor ill will towards them and question their abilities as a physician? Would you forever refer to them as "vacationologist?"

Scenario #2:
A colleague, fresh out of residency, becomes ill and needs extended time off (3 months) in order to receive chemotherapy and radiation. Obviously, they are unable to take call during this time off and their severe nausea and fatigue prevent them from being able to contribute clinically. Their treatment goes well and their long term prognosis is good, but when they return to work, they are not able to contribute fully to the clinical load and ask for a month of 60% time until they regain their strength. Would you be willing to cover a few extra calls during their absence? Would you count the extra calls you took and make sure they were all paid back? Would you make sure that residents were shielded from working with them upon their return because they would have nothing of any value to teach the residents?

Scenario #3:
A colleague of 10 years approaches the group and say they wish to go to 50% time because they have political aspirations and wish to run for state representative. This will mean less flexibility in the scheduling and extra call burden or perhaps the need to hire another anesthesiologist to work 50% of the time to cover their absence. As a leader of your group, would you allow it? Does the partner with political aspirations seem to have a sense of entitlement? How long should this be tolerated before they are asked to leave the group?

Scenario #4:
One of your most admired partners is asked to serve as Chief Medical Officer of the group's primary hospital. They wish to accept the position and approach the group. It would mean they are available in the O.R. only 40% of the time. Should that partner be kicked out of the group for their sense of entitlement?

Scenario #5:
A member of your group wishes to devote one month to mission work in El Salvador to assist plastic surgeons in repairing cleft palates for less fortunate kids. How should he be asked to leave the group? Should it be a committee intervention or should the financial leader of the group be the one to inform him of the group's decision?

Scenario #6:
A new recruit to the group, fresh out of residency, who has only been their 6 months learns that her husband has been diagnosed with advanced pancreatic cancer. She asks for extended leave to be with him in his final weeks of life. How should the group let her know that her position will not be there for her when she is ready to return to work? The group knows that the only other job available in the same city is an academic position. Does the group have a responsibility to the academic department to let them know that she should not be hired there either because that would be a disservice to the residents?

Everyone's purpose in life is a bit different. There will be times when the cookie cutter mold of how one person thinks life should be does not always fit. Everyone will have a time in their life when they will need assistance. I am all for helping each other out and being a team player so that when my time arrives where I need a helping hand comes, people will be willing to assist. If that time never arrives, I will consider my self very lucky.
Understand that I am not talking about takers in the world who do not pull their share of the load. I do not get the impression that the female posters in this thread are those types. They have clearly indicated that they made every effort to lessen the impact of their circumstances on others and they took measures to repay the extra work. Yet, a few here are throwing them under the bus as if they have nothing to offer the field of medicine. Just for the record, I have worked with more male slacker colleagues than female.

Is it really an entitlement attitude to wish to pursue something in life that makes you happy. For one person, it might be kids. For another it might be research or academic promotion. For another, it might be a time consuming hobby or a calling for mission work or political endeavors. Does having a kid constitute an entitlement attitude any more so than any of the others if the time away is the same and the impact on the group is equal?

The females that have kids that I work with are extremely hard working and I would venture to guess they work harder than the males because as soon as work is over, they have another full time job waiting for them. In addition, they have to work hard to overcome the male elitist stereotype that they deal with daily. I find it insulting that they would be referred to as a "mommy-ologist" or whatever insulting term you choose.

Perhaps you have been unlucky and have not dealt with the same high caliber female colleagues that I have. Still, that is no reason to throw an entire group under the bus using the same stereotype.

In addition, you never addressed my previous inquiry of why you call others arrogant for their attack on your buddy, but you dredge up a year old thread to launch a similar attack on someone you perceive as your inferior and it is completely justified in your mind.

Not trying to stir you up, just trying to see if you can see things from another perspective.
 
I can't help but chuckle when you compare getting pregnant and/or being a part-time mommy physician to...

A vacation...having cancer...running for political office...CMO of the hospital...docs without borders...back to cancer except now someone else has it...

...that's some stretch of analogies that you've got there.

I don't hear any sexist or male chauvinist rants on here, just the simple truth... Which is.. you can't have everything in life, nor be the best at everything in life...you've got to ultimately make a CHOICE, and something else will suffer for that choice whether you like it or not. You're not gonna be the best clinician and/or teacher in your private or academic group nor the most reliable, the best resident, the best worker, the best wife/husband, the best golfer, the best friend, the best homemaker, the best neighbor, the best....anything. Everybody wants to be the best at all these things but nobody approaches life that way. Subconsciously, they make a decision as to which one they want to excel at, and the other things suffer for it. You might be "good" at most of these things, but something has got to give...to the point where you're never going to be "as good" as others, whether you like it or not, because you know what? You're human.

It's the height of arrogance and yes...entitlement...to presume you can have everything in life and not have to sacrifice anything for it...then cry foul and point fingers when people state the simple obvious.
 
Groove said:
I can't help but chuckle when you compare getting pregnant and/or being a part-time mommy physician to...

A vacation...having cancer...running for political office...CMO of the hospital...docs without borders...back to cancer except now someone else has it...

...that's some stretch of analogies that you've got there.

I don't hear any sexist or male chauvinist rants on here, just the simple truth... Which is.. you can't have everything in life, nor be the best at everything in life...you've got to ultimately make a CHOICE, and something else will suffer for that choice whether you like it or not. You're not gonna be the best clinician and/or teacher in your private or academic group nor the most reliable, the best resident, the best worker, the best wife/husband, the best golfer, the best friend, the best homemaker, the best neighbor, the best....anything. Everybody wants to be the best at all these things but nobody approaches life that way. Subconsciously, they make a decision as to which one they want to excel at, and the other things suffer for it. You might be "good" at most of these things, but something has got to give...to the point where you're never going to be "as good" as others, whether you like it or not, because you know what? You're human.

It's the height of arrogance and yes...entitlement...to presume you can have everything in life and not have to sacrifice anything for it...then cry foul and point fingers when people state the simple obvious.
Click to expand...

👍 Excellent post.

The women (and men) who choose more of a work/life balance do pay up for it in terms of professional advancement...as they should. Less Leadership roles in private practice groups, less opportunity for advancement inMedical Staff politics, fewer Department chairs or Senior faculty positions, taking less call which tends to be the most highly compensated aspect of private practice...whatever.

They tend not to pay in residency.
 
Groove said:
I can't help but chuckle when you compare getting pregnant and/or being a part-time mommy physician to...

A vacation...having cancer...running for political office...CMO of the hospital...docs without borders...back to cancer except now someone else has it...

...that's some stretch of analogies that you've got there.

I don't hear any sexist or male chauvinist rants on here, just the simple truth... Which is.. you can't have everything in life, nor be the best at everything in life...you've got to ultimately make a CHOICE, and something else will suffer for that choice whether you like it or not. You're not gonna be the best clinician and/or teacher in your private or academic group nor the most reliable, the best resident, the best worker, the best wife/husband, the best golfer, the best friend, the best homemaker, the best neighbor, the best....anything. Everybody wants to be the best at all these things but nobody approaches life that way. Subconsciously, they make a decision as to which one they want to excel at, and the other things suffer for it. You might be "good" at most of these things, but something has got to give...to the point where you're never going to be "as good" as others, whether you like it or not, because you know what? You're human.

It's the height of arrogance and yes...entitlement...to presume you can have everything in life and not have to sacrifice anything for it...then cry foul and point fingers when people state the simple obvious.
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So in a nutshell-- a man cannot be a great father, great husband, and great physician all at once. got it. And if he thinks he can try, then he's arrogant and entitled. Will be sure to let 50% of my anesthesia faculty colleagues in on the newsflash. Thanks for clarifying!

Here's another newsflash-- noone is crying foul here but you. You are ENTITLED to be a bitter, angry person as you work your way up the career ladder. You are ENTITLED to refuse to take extra calls/shifts for your colleagues who decide to get pregnant or for whatever other thing they feel entitled to do during residency. No one is stopping you.
 
michigangirl said:
So in a nutshell-- a man cannot be a great father, great husband, and great physician all at once. got it. And if he thinks he can try, then he's arrogant and entitled. Will be sure to let 50% of my anesthesia faculty colleagues in on the newsflash. Thanks for clarifying!

Here's another newsflash-- noone is crying foul here but you. You are ENTITLED to be a bitter, angry person as you work your way up the career ladder. You are ENTITLED to refuse to take extra calls/shifts for your colleagues who decide to get pregnant or for whatever other thing they feel entitled to do during residency. No one is stopping you.
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Not quite. The reality is that there are plenty of educated, accomplished women who are willing to play the role of homemaker/helpmate/caregiver to a semi-workaholic husband and kids and find this to be a role where they can be content. This allows the semi-workaholic husband to "have it all".

There are far fewer educated men who are willing to play this role and be content. Unfair but true.

The full blown workaholic of either sex almost inevitably has their personal life go up in flames at some point.
 
dr doze said:
Not quite. The reality is that there are plenty of educated, accomplished women who are willing to play the role of homemaker/helpmate/caregiver to a semi-workaholic husband and kids and find this to be a role where they can be content. This allows the semi-workaholic husband to "have it all".

There are far fewer educated men who are willing to play this role and be content. Unfair but true.

The full blown workaholic of either sex almost inevitably has their personal life go up in flames at some point.
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👍

Right on the money.
 
Groove said:
I can't help but chuckle when you compare getting pregnant and/or being a part-time mommy physician to...

A vacation...having cancer...running for political office...CMO of the hospital...docs without borders...back to cancer except now someone else has it...

..
Click to expand...

I never made a comparison. I was very careful not to say that in the way I worded it. I knew that some would not catch the subtle difference. I pointed out that life is different for different people. In all of those scenarios, the net effect on the partners in a group is similar. Some scenarios draw more compassion than others. Some are acceptable to partners while others are not. That is the point.
These are not a "stretch of analogies." They are real life scenarios. I have personally seen each one played out in real life. Ask yourself how you will deal with each one, because you will likely see some of them in your career. I hope that you handle them with poise.
 
There is a lot of bravado on this thread, and I am not talking about statements from those with a Y chromosome.

First realize that being pregnant is an imposition on others, period. To think otherwise is the height of narcissism. Of course, we are talking about pregnant women here.

It also happens to be a very predictable imposition that can be easily made up with prior planning.

If a resident is pregnant, she should work to cover additional call time AHEAD of maternity leave so that the people who are working additional time for her are compensated. I have only seen one of my anesthesia resident colleagues who was proactive in ensuring that she made up for the additional burden that she placed on her colleagues. The Gyn residents I worked with were very proactive in ensuring that they made up for missed work to the people who had to cover for them.

In practice, the variables are quite different and there are a number of ways to make it up to your colleagues.

Perhaps the women on this board are the exception.

-pod
 
GB, I'm not as gracious as you.

I am over this thread. Groove et al., call it what you want. Sexism is still sexism when disguised as random words. I have no idea what the point of your last few posts are. "noone can have it all, it's arrogant...wait, men can have it all, because they have wives who pick up the slack and stay at home, thumbs up, high five, women just can't do that, blah blah blah" 😴

Why does a woman's quest to "have it all" bother you so much? Am I to believe you genuinely care about our long-term success as mothers, teachers, clinicians and wives? No. It's because the only people who care are a.) people who are so insecure about their own lives that they feel the need to constantly question others' choices and b.) women who have been there, done that and want you to learn from their challenges.

I will finish with this. Women in anesthesia training or on their way to it-- the possibilities are endless. Define your priorities, stick to them, and find a way to make it work. As you've seen here, the vast majority of your colleagues will be very supportive, but be sure to make it up to the colleagues that helped you out. Plan ahead, and don't look back. Live your life to the fullest, as defined by YOU. And best of luck. 🙂
 
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hoyden said:
time worked, not 2 antibiotics which do not treat viral infections 😀

superman should mature and start to be a physician and think about his patients FIRST.
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Nope.

Dudes already matured.

Groove did what we all do.👍

Btw, what's this

Proactive call in sick vibe?:laugh:

"You frikkin people."

(movie quote btw...anyone know which movie? Very appropriate tho...)
 
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Not that anyone asked or cares, but here's my take on what constitutes an inappropriate burden and imposition on colleagues.

My little Navy hospital is the receiving point for a lot of single young active duty women who are flown here from either overseas duty stations (mostly Japan) or forward deployed areas (ships, Iraq, or Afghanistan) after they become pregnant. The Navy flies them here, puts them 2-to-a-room in base housing, and they hang out doing made-up busywork, until they deliver. Meanwhile, someplace many thousands of miles away, someone picks up their slack with nothing to show for it. They don't get paid overtime, that's for sure.

A colleague arranging to take a couple months off to have a baby, going out of her way to minimize the impact on others ... :shrug:
 
michigangirl said:
GB, I'm not as gracious as you.

I am over this thread. Groove et al., call it what you want. Sexism is still sexism when disguised as random words. I have no idea what the point of your last few posts are. "noone can have it all, it's arrogant...wait, men can have it all, because they have wives who pick up the slack and stay at home, thumbs up, high five, women just can't do that, blah blah blah" 😴

Why does a woman's quest to "have it all" bother you so much? Am I to believe you genuinely care about our long-term success as mothers, teachers, clinicians and wives? No. It's because the only people who care are a.) people who are so insecure about their own lives that they feel the need to constantly question others' choices and b.) women who have been there, done that and want you to learn from their challenges.

I will finish with this. Women in anesthesia training or on their way to it-- the possibilities are endless. Define your priorities, stick to them, and find a way to make it work. As you've seen here, the vast majority of your colleagues will be very supportive, but be sure to make it up to the colleagues that helped you out. Plan ahead, and don't look back. Live your life to the fullest, as defined by YOU. And best of luck. 🙂
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to know the divorce rate amongst the people who are being hardest on the OP.
 
GypsySongman said:
I'd be interested to know the divorce rate amongst the people who are being hardest on the OP.
Click to expand...

Married 25 years. Wife agrees with me on this one. It just took a decade of arguments and watching my female colleagues and her contemporaries from old jobs and college try to keep all the balls in the air...and fail.
 
I personally think that we should require all female residents/attendings to have documented contraceptive methods in place at all times. I honestly don't see any other way around this. Think about it... if this were protocol everywhere, we would have an immensely higher level of productivity. I'm sure that some people would object to it, probably bringing up some religious/personal right argument, but I don't think that it would really hold up in court. Flame me if you want, but it's the only logical solution that I can come up with.

-RT2MD
 
That should give a little bit of fodder for continued discussion... :laugh:

Please know that I wrote the above post at the same time as this one (look at the timestamps). I honestly don't believe a word of what I said above, just trying to make things interesting! :corny:

I can see both side's point, however. You cannot be the best parent in the world, as well as the best professional... in ANY profession. I don't think that was the original point of this discussion, though. I think that the original point was if you could "make it work" and I think you can... although SOMETHING is going to suffer a bit. You are either not always going to be around for everything with your kids, or you aren't going to be able to excel in your profession as much as you would otherwise. If one better than the other? No, I don't think so, it's up to personal preference.

I am not qualified to make any comments on teaching ability of one vs. the other, so I won't butt my head in there! 😎

MTGas2B - sorry, man... couldn't resist throwing my 2 cents in the ring... especially since I MIGHT have been the one responsible for restarting this thread. (I posted 3 links to threads regarding part time anesthesiologist on that other thread... this was one of them):whistle: :smack:

:beat::beat::diebanana::diebanana:
 
RT2MD said:
I personally think that we should require all female residents/attendings to have documented contraceptive methods in place at all times. I honestly don't see any other way around this. Think about it... if this were protocol everywhere, we would have an immensely higher level of productivity. I'm sure that some people would object to it, probably bringing up some religious/personal right argument, but I don't think that it would really hold up in court. Flame me if you want, but it's the only logical solution that I can come up with.

-RT2MD
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I realize this was tongue in cheek, but it is pretty much in line with what many on this thread believe should be standard.
 
RT2MD said:
I personally think that we should require all female residents/attendings to have documented contraceptive methods in place at all times.
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I knew a Marine who thought females should get Depo shots along with their yellow fever, smallpox, etc immunizations prior to deploying ...

Don't think he was totally serious but I'd play along because it made for interesting conversation.
 
First time I saw GROOVE'S avatar I thought MilMD was back... had to do a double take.

Okay, carry on...

D712
 
This sums up this thread:
woman-sandwhich.jpg
 
I can't believe I read most of the posts here but I did and now I gotta comment.

In the past I posted some comments on similar subjects. I have since hired a few females one of which is a mommy and is fantastic. But she is full-time and had her kids in residency so I can't comment on how that went but knowing her I'm sure it went well. I think the mommy track is fine for the right person. I don't care what it does to residencies bc I'm far removed from that. Smaller programs probably suffer more. I say that bc I know smaller groups suffer more than the larger ones. It helps tremendously if you give fair warning.

But I think some of you are giving Jet a hard time and not considering his point enough. He isn't bashing the mommy track per se (the OP labeled it this). He is strictly stating that you can't expect to be as effective at educating residents when you graduate and go straight to part time. It doesn't need to be a female on the mommy track alone. It can be a male wanting to be a daddy or a female wanting to travel for a few years b4 working full time. It doesn't matter, chances are you are not going to be the best bet for resident education. I like the idea of these docs just doing their own cases if academic centers want to hire them(I'm sure Jet does as well). Or better yet, come to my group. We may have a spot for you but when it comes time to go full time be ready to do it or be ready to find another job if i can't find another mommy.
 
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