Money is my motive.... MED SCHOOL/Doctor!!!!! question :(

[stateu2013]

If you're after money, then becoming a doctor simply isn't the way you want to go. I would bet dollars to donuts that if you took just half the amount of time and effort needed to become a highly paid physician, and instead put that toward becoming a really good invester, banker, real estate agent, car salesman, or something of the like, then you'll be making two or three times more than the vast majority of physicians in the US.

With all due respect (I agree with everything else you said), and knowing that the OP is doing nothing but wasting all of our time, this comment of yours is just way off. There are constantly people posting on this website saying exactly what you are saying, but it simply is not true. I understand that pre-meds, med students, residents, and attendings all work very hard and that no part of what they do is "easy," but everyone needs to grow up if they think that there is a lot of "easy" money to be made in this country.

For example, you suggest that this person put half as much time and effort into becoming a business person of some sort. Well, let's say the average doctor worked 100 hour weeks all throughout undergrad, med school, residency, and now in the "real world" as well (a huge overestimation, obviously). Well, working 50 hour weeks as a banker or car salesman from the age of 18 through the age of 30 sure as hell doesn't make a person "two or three times more than the vast majority of physicians in the US."

Generally speaking, you doctors really are the best and the brightest. I get it. But please stop being so naive as to think that your med school superbrain would be allowing you to pull down half a million dollars a year working 30 hour weeks. It comes across as arrogant, and likely even somewhat offensive to those intelligent people in our population that chose to spend their career doing something outside of medicine (and trust me, those people do exist -- life is not as simple as doctors>nurses>CNAs>janitors).

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[grizdad]

i'd think most jobs with a philosophy phd consisting of teaching and publishing would be able to pull down a cool 7 sigfigs per year

Including the 2 to the right of the decimal point.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
on the other hand, how many people are banking 300k on AVERAGE in these professions? For competitive sake, lets say that i don't end up in the field I wanted ( anesthesiology) and somehow end up with a 3.5 average in medical school. What other choices do I have to pick from?

Lets name a few....

dermatology?
cardiac/ thoracic surgery?
radiology?
gastroenterology?
gynecological oncology?
neurological surgery?
nuclear medicine?

I can keep going but these are professions that are making 300k on average and some that I listed are banking 500k like c/t surgery and neurological surgery. I haven't listed any orthopedic specialties and those are commanding 300k+ averages.\
what are the easier options? list them please

first, you are clearly a troll.
However lest anyone actually is buying your crap, I have to point out that (1) surgical specialties mean more years of residency and fellowship. That means more delay before earning money. (2) if you can't land an anesthesiology job, radiology and derm an neurosurgery are going to be unreachable for you (3) nuclear medicine docs don't earn $300k. In fact they usually don't get jobs at all and many spend years trying to get into radiology as a second residency. (4) there is no such thing as a numeric GPA at most med schools; someone who expects to be average and doesn't care about learning the material is going to be lucky to pass at all. (5) you don't appreciate the "time value of money". This concept, which all of finance is based on tells us that $1 earned today is worth a lot more than $1 earned ten years from now. So you basically have to adjust all med school salaries with a discount rate to see what they are really worth. Depending on what rate is reasonable, a $300k salary to start a decade from now may actually be worth less than, say, a $90k salary that starts right out of college. And that's even ignoring the huge debt you will assume. Finally (6) medicine is hard work. You are going to be working 70- 80 hours a week for many years, (more if you go surgical) starting even many years before you are earning a decent income. Most people focused on money contemplate actually having time to enjoy it, but in medicine you might not have that time. It's a career of early mornings, long hours, and lifelong learning/reading requirements. It doesn't really sound like something you are looking for.

The bottom line is it's a no brainer, if you are focused on the money, something without the delayed income and high career hurdles is going to make more sense. Pretty much anyone smart enough to get into med school should be able to come up with a better way to make bank.

 

[ppfizenm]

Dude, that episode of This American Life was amazing.

Also, Ira Glass is my dream man.

lol. I like how he can be sardonic and serious at the same time

 

[IlDestriero]

Sounds cool, but what would I use that for and how much money will that bring me?



good money in social work? How much money are we talking here? anesthesiologists are making 300k ish first year out of residency... Am I wrong?

Social work is where it's at.

Btw, anesthesiologists average in the 400's.
If you want mad loot, ortho spine could get you to 7 figures.

 

[GeorgiadisMD]

Are you serious about becoming a doctor solely for the money? Wow I'm on my cell phone right now and I just felt like I had to voice my opinion over reading what you had wrote. You are so selfish and are only thinking about yourself. Even if you become a doctor, you do not sound like you have any compassion for anyone but yourself. Think about what being a doctor means. Think about what doctors really do. You are in it for all the wrong reasons which are only for yourself. Nothing wrong with thinking about yourself, but being a doctor is not a field to do that. Gosh you make me so angry with what you are saying.

Sent from my VM670 using SDN Mobile

 

[notbobtrustme]

Money can be one reason to go into medical school, but if it's the only reason, you will be sorely disappointed. It's a 10 year committment before you actually earn "big bucks". By contrast, an equal amount of work put into virtually any other highpowered field (eg MBA) will net you a better paying job earlier.

 

[forthemoney]

Dude, you're missing the point. You're under the delusion that becoming a doctor is somehow the easiest way to make a lot of money. You're absolutely right that being a doctor will make money, and that there are specialists that do make that much money. But the people who get into those residencies are typically very good in medical school, and of the people who get into those residences, the ones that make a lot of money are typically very good at what they do. And the people who are very good at what they do tend to be the ones that put in an absurd amount of time, effort, and work into the job.

You see the trend? Good doctors make a lot of money, but I haven't met any good doctors that are good doctors BECAUSE they want to make a lot of money. They put in all the extra work because they cared about what they were doing and were willing to make a lot of hard sacrifices, financial and otherwise, to get there. The money is a side-effect of a passion for medicine.

I have no doubt of the possibility that you can motivate yourself through the hardship of medical school based on financial motivation and the somewhat naive dream that you'll certainly be able to land in one of the higher paying residency programs. But you aren't absorbing that what you would have to sacrifice as a medical student and as a physician is not going to be worth the CHANCE (as in, the possibility without certainty) of getting into a job that you consider to be financially worth it. In fact, even some of the 300K/year physicians are advising pre-meds to just avoid medicine altogether.

If you're after money, then becoming a doctor simply isn't the way you want to go. I would bet dollars to donuts that if you took just half the amount of time and effort needed to become a highly paid physician, and instead put that toward becoming a really good invester, banker, real estate agent, car salesman, or something of the like, then you'll be making two or three times more than the vast majority of physicians in the US.

And just an FYI, when you start spouting of "300K" being made as an anaesthesiologist, you're kinda confirming how extremely naive you are about the life of a physician. You have to pay a few thousand a year just to maintain your licenses, a few thousand more for the costs of running a practice, and a few tens of thousands of dollars a year for malpractice. That's not taking into account the "civilian" costs of housing, car payments, and possibly a family. Oh, and anaesthesiologists are a favorite target of sue-happy people, considering that if they even DREAMED they were uncomfortable during a surgery, you're the one they can hold responsible. Anaesthesiologists aren't paid more because their job is "harder"; they're paid more to balance out the gargantuan sums of money many of them have to pay out just to practice.

hmmm.. This makes sense!! but I don't think a doctor making 300k is paying that much out of pocket are they? 50k max for insurance and 20k for other fees at the max... 230k still left for the gubment to get their share. I really wished I knew what in the world I should be doing in my life because from all of this talk, it sounds like becoming a medical doctor isn't the way to go...

OP you don't understand that there are going to be substantial medicare/medicaid cuts in the future, that will kill your reimbursement do you. Also, doctors that patients don't like eg doctors like you the one you'd aspire to be - maxing out patient load while minimizing patient interaction as you see them as a paycheck - are lawsuit magnets.

Just go into the pharmaceutical industry, so we don't have to call a douche like you a colleague.

ok, i understand your point but what in the world should I do with my degree? become a scientists for the military and make 40k?

What other options do I have with this biology degree? Can I actually go into the pharmaceutical industry with it? any idea on how much I would be making?

hahahhahahah this is hilarious. so i guess we'd all be billionaires or at least be pulling milions if we spent the time we put into medicine elsewhere...strong anecdotal evidence. you can't just assume that being succesful in medicine means that you can be successful in business. you aren't taking into account how many people DON'T make it in business, it's really not that easy to make 7 figures. i'd go as far as saying that 95% of the people in business don't make the money the average doctor does. opportunity cost is another thing, but the point you're bringing up with your stories is hilariously dumb.

and this is really my point!! People say there are better ways to make money but the problem is that most of these jobs that people claim doesn't make on average more than a doctor even with the loans they have to take out.

With all due respect (I agree with everything else you said), and knowing that the OP is doing nothing but wasting all of our time, this comment of yours is just way off. There are constantly people posting on this website saying exactly what you are saying, but it simply is not true. I understand that pre-meds, med students, residents, and attendings all work very hard and that no part of what they do is "easy," but everyone needs to grow up if they think that there is a lot of "easy" money to be made in this country.

For example, you suggest that this person put half as much time and effort into becoming a business person of some sort. Well, let's say the average doctor worked 100 hour weeks all throughout undergrad, med school, residency, and now in the "real world" as well (a huge overestimation, obviously). Well, working 50 hour weeks as a banker or car salesman from the age of 18 through the age of 30 sure as hell doesn't make a person "two or three times more than the vast majority of physicians in the US."

Generally speaking, you doctors really are the best and the brightest. I get it. But please stop being so naive as to think that your med school superbrain would be allowing you to pull down half a million dollars a year working 30 hour weeks. It comes across as arrogant, and likely even somewhat offensive to those intelligent people in our population that chose to spend their career doing something outside of medicine (and trust me, those people do exist -- life is not as simple as doctors>nurses>CNAs>janitors).

not wasting your time, just don't want to be wasting my time becoming a doctor for the sole reason to make a bunch of money that I probably won't make due to loans and such. Now im kind of confused as to what I should be doing in my life...

Military pay sucks as a scientist... perhaps I could go and get my masters and teach biology at a bunch of schools and make 100k with a relatively easy workload...

ahhh... I don't really know what I should be doing. If a become a doctor, I would have put in 4 years of medical school, 4-5 years for residency to make 300k... i'd be 31 then and i would be making 300k yearly for 11 more years stacking up good money with enough to retire with more bank then I could ever imagine.

on another note I could join the military, have a cake job sitting on my ass making 40k and retire at 42 with full benefits and 50% pay.. which would be about 65k.

My goal is to retire in 20 years no matter what I do. I also want to be able to actually have a family!! I can't raise kids while in medical school, and its crazy to raise them in residency with these 60 hour work days.

If you had a biology degree, what would you do to make a bunch of money and retire at 42 no matter what?

first, you are clearly a troll.
However lest anyone actually is buying your crap, I have to point out that (1) surgical specialties mean more years of residency and fellowship. That means more delay before earning money. (2) if you can't land an anesthesiology job, radiology and derm an neurosurgery are going to be unreachable for you (3) nuclear medicine docs don't earn $300k. In fact they usually don't get jobs at all and many spend years trying to get into radiology as a second residency. (4) there is no such thing as a numeric GPA at most med schools; someone who expects to be average and doesn't care about learning the material is going to be lucky to pass at all. (5) you don't appreciate the "time value of money". This concept, which all of finance is based on tells us that $1 earned today is worth a lot more than $1 earned ten years from now. So you basically have to adjust all med school salaries with a discount rate to see what they are really worth. Depending on what rate is reasonable, a $300k salary to start a decade from now may actually be worth less than, say, a $90k salary that starts right out of college. And that's even ignoring the huge debt you will assume. Finally (6) medicine is hard work. You are going to be working 70- 80 hours a week for many years, (more if you go surgical) starting even many years before you are earning a decent income. Most people focused on money contemplate actually having time to enjoy it, but in medicine you might not have that time. It's a career of early mornings, long hours, and lifelong learning/reading requirements. It doesn't really sound like something you are looking for.

The bottom line is it's a no brainer, if you are focused on the money, something without the delayed income and high career hurdles is going to make more sense. Pretty much anyone smart enough to get into med school should be able to come up with a better way to make bank.

you make a good point. A dollar today isn't worth the same as a dollar 10 years from now.

I guess what my point is now that I actually understand what some of you guys are saying is that becoming a doctor for the money isn't the best thing to do financially. But my question now i, if becoming a doctor is the best thing to do to make a lot of money, what should I do?

People say go into business but that assumes I have money to spend to start a business. I may quite possibly start out having my own business and make 50k a year or maybe even go broke.

I guess now knowing I will get my degree soon, I don't know what to do. I always thought that going to medical school was the best way to make a bunch of money but from what you guys are saying its better ways... what are those better ways considering I am getting my degree soon...

 

[forthemoney]

Social work is where it's at.

Btw, anesthesiologists average in the 400's.
If you want mad loot, ortho spine could get you to 7 figures.

I know, but I wanted to lower it a tad to see if anything else could come close.

making 400k a year would most definitely allow one to retire at 40-42 years old with a good bit of money.

Are you serious about becoming a doctor solely for the money? Wow I'm on my cell phone right now and I just felt like I had to voice my opinion over reading what you had wrote. You are so selfish and are only thinking about yourself. Even if you become a doctor, you do not sound like you have any compassion for anyone but yourself. Think about what being a doctor means. Think about what doctors really do. You are in it for all the wrong reasons which are only for yourself. Nothing wrong with thinking about yourself, but being a doctor is not a field to do that. Gosh you make me so angry with what you are saying.

Sent from my VM670 using SDN Mobile

yes, I am thinking about becoming a doctor solely for the money. Yes, I am selfish So much so that I would give those who pay my selfish big salary the highest care I have to offer. When I am getting paid, I tend to give it my all no matter what I do.This is how I work...

make money ---> give people care ---> people are happy ---> im happy too

sure, one could say that I am selfish and only thinking about myself but when you really look at it, I am not just thinking about myself. I am FORCED to think about other people who I give care to because I want to make big monies. I wouldn't want to make 300k a year while giving people subpar care. I wouldn't want to make 50k a year giving subpar care, it just isn't my style.

sorry for making you angry but thats just how I think. Perhaps im wrong in my thinking but hey, it suits me just fine thus far.

Money can be one reason to go into medical school, but if it's the only reason, you will be sorely disappointed. It's a 10 year committment before you actually earn "big bucks". By contrast, an equal amount of work put into virtually any other highpowered field (eg MBA) will net you a better paying job earlier.

you really think so?!?! me getting an mba and putting in a bunch of effort would net me the same? I can put in the effort, thats never been an issue with me, its just that on average, the most an mba tyically makes isn't anywhere near a doctor salary.

I keep thinking that if I go for an mba I would end up making 70k yearly doing some cake job. I don't mind but it isn't the amount of money I was looking for.

 

[forthemoney]

...

 

[GoZags]

I really wished I knew what in the world I should be doing in my life

not wasting your time

Now im kind of confused as to what I should be doing in my life...

I don't really know what I should be doing.

what should I do?

I don't know what to do.

^^^^ All of this was in one message, this is clearly a case of:

 

[forthemoney]

^^^^ All of this was in one message, this is clearly a case of:

cool story bro. Too bad you didn't answer any of my questions yet post such a useless reply.. but thanks anyway.

having input from you guys made me rethink what I should be doing.. If thats being a troll then ok then.

 

[GoZags]

cool story bro. Too bad you didn't answer any of my questions yet post such a useless reply.. but thanks anyway.

having input from you guys made me rethink what I should be doing.. If thats being a troll then ok then.

Everyone has been doing nothing but giving you advice and you're belaboring the point completely....

 

[HealthHare]

 

[forthemoney]

Everyone has been doing nothing but giving you advice and you're belaboring the point completely....

well yes, people have been giving me good advice but do you see the questions I pose to their advice?

I don't see how me getting an MBA would make me as much money as an MD even if I wanted to retire at 42 years old.

 

[Life Eternal]

well yes, people have been giving me good advice but do you see the questions I pose to their advice?

I don't see how me getting an MBA would make me as much money as an MD even if I wanted to retire at 42 years old.

Please don't go to medical school if you only plan on being an attending for about 10 years.

 

[listentoadvice]

well yes, people have been giving me good advice but do you see the questions I pose to their advice?

I don't see how me getting an MBA would make me as much money as an MD even if I wanted to retire at 42 years old.

Ok, I'll run through the financials for you.

Note: There are a lot of estimates in my numbers because there are a ton of variables in every aspect (i.e. you could live like a king or a pauper doing medical school, residency, etc).

Medical School:
Tuition: 4 years @ $ 30,000. (State school cost. It's a lot more if private).
Room & Board: 4 Years @ $10,000
Other costs (Insurance, gas, social activities): 4 years @ $ 5,000.

Just like that, you're $ 180,000 in debt, not counting undergrad costs. Stafford loan cost is 6.8%. The estimate is it will take 15 years to repay (Total loan payment amount = $308,000).

Here's what residency, which is 4 years, looks list for an anesthesiologist.
Salary: $ 50,000.
- Taxes: $ 4,750 + 25% over $ 34,000 = $ 8,750
- Living Costs (Apt, insurance, housing) = $ 20,000
- Loan Repayment (Est $ 500 every month) = $ 6,000
- Savings (because you're planning to retire at 42) = $15,000.

So at the end of residency, you'll have saved $ 60,000 +/- whatever your interest rate is (usually 0.5%). Unfortunately, you still owe $274,000. So now, we get to the good part. Where you're the baller anesthesiologist, assuming you get the job and ignoring external factors affecting the current market (i.e. CRNA takeover).

Anesthesiologist:
Salary $ 200,000 (that's a really generous starting offer by the way).
- Taxes = $ 42,449 + 33% over $ 174,000 = $ 50,000.
- Malpractice Insurance = $ 20,000
- Living Costs (let's be honest, you're not going to drive a Kia and live in a studio in the middle of nowhere) = $ 75,000
- Loan Repayment ($ 2,100 per month) = 25,000
- Savings = 30,000

Assuming you get a generous raise every year (5% which I will add is rare in this economy and probably won't happen with the decrease in future insurance compensations) and you put that all in to savings.

Now, let's draw the final picture. It'll take you 11 years practicing as an anesthesiologist to repay your loans completely. During that period, you saved a total of 4 @ $ 15,000 + 11 @ $ 30,000 = $ 390,000. Even with shrewd investing of that money, you'd be lucky to double it. Do you believe you can retire on $ 800,000? Most people save @ 30,000 per year for the next 25 years of their career to get anywhere near to a comfortable retirement number (1.5 million plus.

Oh and all of this is with very conservative estimates regarding your living costs. A person who's mentality is for the money will probably end up spending all their money not saving it.

So good luck with your plan.

My Errors:
Didn't factor in state taxes. Figure that to be another 5 - 10% of your salary.


.

 

[JRWPREMED]

I'm just curious.... What line of BS are you going to rant off to an admissions committee when the question, "Why medicine?" comes up? I haven't applied to medical school yet, so I don't know how the interview process goes, but I'm pretty sure "money" isn't the answer they are looking for.

 

[listentoadvice]

I would've used your number ($424,000) but that's the two years ago number. With the rise of CRNAs, DNPs and god knows what cost cutting measure they'll invent in the next 8 years before the OP starts practice as an attending, I'm pretty sure the salary will be lower. Will it be $200,000 low, who knows? But with the stories I've read about anesthesiologists managing 4-5 CRNAs thus resulting in a loss of 4 anesthesiologists jobs and my barely there knowledge of economics, I'd bet on it significantly dropping.

As for my message to the original poster, you're not retiring at 42, even with a $100,000 bump in salary per year. You'll still be saving at max $ 70,000 per year with that. For ten years, that's $ 700,000 plus investments and interests. I'll be generous and double that to $1.4 million. Do you think you can survive 40 years with that?

My advice to you, if you're in it for the money, marry rich. Similar to how some girls go for an MRS degree, you can go for a MR degree. But be forewarned, she'll probably retire you at 32 and upgrade. Look at the brightside though, you'll get to retire (more like forced to retire) 10 years earlier than you expected.

 

[Frazier]

I would've used your number ($424,000) but that's the two years ago number. With the rise of CRNAs, DNPs and god knows what cost cutting measure they'll invent in the next 8 years before the OP starts practice as an attending, I'm pretty sure the salary will be lower. Will it be $200,000 low, who knows? But with the stories I've read about anesthesiologists managing 4-5 CRNAs thus resulting in a loss of 4 anesthesiologists jobs and my barely there knowledge of economics, I'd bet on it significantly dropping.

As for my message to the original poster, you're not retiring at 42, even with a $100,000 bump in salary per year. You'll still be saving at max $ 70,000 per year with that. For ten years, that's $ 700,000 plus investments and interests. I'll be generous and double that to $1.4 million. Do you think you can survive 40 years with that?

My advice to you, if you're in it for the money, marry rich. Similar to how some girls go for an MRS degree, you can go for a MR degree. But be forewarned, she'll probably retire you at 32 and upgrade. Look at the brightside though, you'll get to retire (more like forced to retire) 10 years earlier than you expected.

NOW you're talking, my friend.

 

[Frazier]

I'm just curious.... What line of BS are you going to rant off to an admissions committee when the question, "Why medicine?" comes up? I haven't applied to medical school yet, so I don't know how the interview process goes, but I'm pretty sure "money" isn't the answer they are looking for.

If OP is most motivated by money and cannot concoct a canned answer to "Why medicine" sans the mentioning of money -- then OP deserves no money and should not pass go.

 

[link2swim06]

Bottom line, you are going to be poor as **** in med school.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

n=1 but I got a buddy who is working at a factory with only a high school degree, and he's making more money now than most any science majors after schooling. He might even be able to retire by the time I get to and complete residency.

I wouldn't be a doctor solely for the money.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Heres what I don't get... Everyone always says if you want to make money, go into business. It makes it seem like you can walk right into investment bank and make millions off the bat. Also it makes it seem like getting a six figure business job is as easy as 1-2-3. But how many people come out of college and start as junior analyst making five figures, then end decades later as a senior analyst making FIVE figures?

That happens A LOT. Business isnt holy grail for money like people make it out to be. If it was, then why so many non-trads?

Also, even if you are going mostly for money. You are doing better more meaningful things on daily basis than just crunching pointless numbers as analyst.

 

[Law2Doc]

Heres what I don't get... Everyone always says if you want to make money, go into business. It makes it seem like you can walk right into investment bank and make millions off the bat. Also it makes it seem like getting a six figure business job is as easy as 1-2-3. But how many people come out of college and start as junior analyst making five figures, then end decades later as a senior analyst making FIVE figures?

That happens A LOT. Business isnt holy grail for money like people make it out to be. If it was, then why so many non-trads?

Also, even if you are going mostly for money. You are doing better more meaningful things on daily basis than just crunching pointless numbers as analyst.

First, "business" isn't equivalent to I-banking, and it isn't equivalent to getting an MBA. You don't need an MBA to do business, and you shouldn't get one to open doors, you should get one later in your career, on your company's dime. Most of the richest people in the world made their money in "business" and they weren't bankers. Many didn't even have a college degree (heads of Microsoft, Facebook dont). Yes, they needed to find seed capital along the way, and yes they took risks of failure. And all had an idea they could market. If you don't have ideas and you aren't willing to take risks, you will not get rich, period. Everyone comes on here and says, "if I don't do medicine, what other job/school can I do that's going to earn me six digits." It's that kind of safe, inside the box thinking that pretty much creates a ceiling for you at middle class at best. What you need is to be an idea guy. There are tons of Internet sites that bring investors together with idea guys. Venture capitalists take meetings with idea folks 24-7. As a lawyer I did a lot of papering these deals. I was the only "professional" in the room, and guess what, I was the only one not getting rich.

You have to bring something to the table or guess what, you aren't going to get rich. I think folks who look at medicine as a good path to wealth because they take the "what other job/school can I do right out of college that pays better" approach have pretty much destined thmselves not to being rich, not retiring in 20 years, and in the worst cast scenario not have the career they enjoy. If you are an inside the box thinker you are forever destined to stay within that box. No risk no rewards. No idea, no rewards. If you have to ask how best to make money in an Internet thread, you already missed that train for lack of a ticket.


As for the "why so many nontrads" question, I want to point out that a lot if nontrads switch to medicine AT A LOSS of income, because after careers of doing other things we realize that income is not the most important factor (or even for some of us in the top three). So bad example.

 

[AllDaWEI]

First, "business" isn't equivalent to I-banking, and it isn't equivalent to getting an MBA. You don't need an MBA to do business, and you shouldn't get one to open doors, you should get one later in your career, on your company's dime. Most of the richest people in the world made their money in "business" and they weren't bankers. Many didn't even have a college degree (heads of Microsoft, Facebook dont). Yes, they needed to find seed capital along the way, and yes they took risks of failure. And all had an idea they could market. If you don't have ideas and you aren't willing to take risks, you will not get rich, period. Everyone comes on here and says, "if I don't do medicine, what other job/school can I do that's going to earn me six digits." It's that kind of safe, inside the box thinking that pretty much creates a ceiling for you at middle class at best. What you need is to be an idea guy. There are tons of Internet sites that bring investors together with idea guys. Venture capitalists take meetings with idea folks 24-7. As a lawyer I did a lot of papering these deals. I was the only "professional" in the room, and guess what, I was the only one not getting rich.

You have to bring something to the table or guess what, you aren't going to get rich. I think folks who look at medicine as a good path to wealth because they take the "what other job/school can I do right out of college that pays better" approach have pretty much destined thmselves not to being rich, not retiring in 20 years, and in the worst cast scenario not have the career they enjoy. If you are an inside the box thinker you are forever destined to stay within that box. No risk no rewards. No idea, no rewards. If you have to ask how best to make money in an Internet thread, you already missed that train for lack of a ticket.


As for the "why so many nontrads" question, I want to point out that a lot if nontrads switch to medicine AT A LOSS of income, because after careers of doing other things we realize that income is not the most important factor (or even for some of us in the top three). So bad example.

But realistically how many will become very rich from being out of the box thinkers? A lot of it comes down to luck.

 

[link2swim06]

But realistically how many will become very rich from being out of the box thinkers? A lot of it comes down to luck.

Its not luck. But being an out of the box is only one of about 20 key features to getting rich from starting your own business.

But its far easier in my mind to go to med school than start a successful company at age 20.

With med school its pretty simple, you memorize the material, pass your tests, and you are guaranteed a 6 figure job in a few years after graduating. If you can follow directions you will pass go, you will collect $200...

With starting your own company you could work your ass off and achieve nothing. Plus there is no formula to starting a business, you gotta figure it all out. Plus its a little easier to get student loans than venture capital...just sayin.

 

[Law2Doc]

Its not luck. But being an out of the box is only one of about 20 key features to getting rich from starting your own business.

But its far easier in my mind to go to med school than start a successful company at age 20.

With med school its pretty simple, you memorize the material, pass your tests, and you are guaranteed a 6 figure job in a few years after graduating. If you can follow directions you will pass go, you will collect $200...

With starting your own company you could work your ass off and achieve nothing. Plus there is no formula to starting a business, you gotta figure it all out. Plus its a little easier to get student loans than venture capital...just sayin.

Easier perhaps,(although I'm not sure working 80 hours a week and not getting a payday for a decade is easy to most, more like stupid). but far less potentially lucrative. You put a ceiling on yourself when you stay in the box. You will not be rich to the point of retiring in twenty years via med school these days. It takes too long to start earning, and the debt and opportunity costs are too high.

And there are no guarantees. There was an article a few months ago about doctors in hard financial spots, and you can look to the pathology and radiology boards and see folks are having a hard time getting jobs out of residency.

 

[Law2Doc]

But realistically how many will become very rich from being out of the box thinkers? A lot of it comes down to luck.

None of it is luck. If you have a good ideas for a business, and are willing to take the risks, you can make it happen. Failures are a function of how good the idea is and how good you are at lining up backing and the people needed to make the dream a reality. It's all skill. I worked with these guys in my prior career, and they weren't just getting lucky. Most were serial entrepreneurs, and created multiple successful businesses over the years, as well as many that didn't pan out. They were not really playing the lottery, they had a game plan that worked when the idea was good enough, and the investors were savvy and only invested in those ideas that seemed good enough. But this was all about skill, not about luck. Only a fool gambles on something based purely on luck.

Business is risky, because most businesses fail, not all ideas are as good as they may initially seem. but access to market and financing is actually much much easier now than in prior years, thanks to the net, and it only takes one "killer app" or hot product to become a very wealthy person. Back in the day, if you wanted financing, a lawyer had to set up a meeting between idea guys and money guys. Now there are websites where you pitch your product and investors anywhere in the planet can get excited about your idea without ever meeting you.

But again, if you are on the net panning for ideas and looking for folks to point you to jobs where you can become rich, it's probably not going to happen for you. you lack the out of the box thinking necessary to be rich. You will be middle class, and that will be after working very hard. That's okay, the world needs grunts. But basically then you need to shut up about being focused on money, because you took the safest path to the middle.

 

[IMSingular]

None if it is luck. If you have a good ideas for a business, and are willing to take the risks, you can make it happen. ...

Willingness to take risk means that inspite all your efforts you may fail. You just can't make it happen every time. Sucess in business or medicine or any other endevour requires effort. Starting a business, however, involves much more risk. Bell and Grey applied for patent for telephone on the same day few hours apart, Bell being few hours ahead, and got the patent. Hayes who developed Hayes modem was a billionaire. Some one built a new modem and drove Hayes to bankruptcy, and Hayes was literally penniless.

Actually lot of it is luck and many business startups fail. There is survivor bias in anecdtoes of rich and famous.

 

[link2swim06]

Easier perhaps,(although I'm not sure working 80 hours a week and not getting a payday for a decade is easy to most, more like stupid). but far less potentially lucrative. You put a ceiling on yourself when you stay in the box. You will not be rich to the point of retiring in twenty years via med school these days. It takes too long to start earning, and the debt and opportunity costs are too high.

And there are no guarantees. There was an article a few months ago about doctors in hard financial spots, and you can look to the pathology and radiology boards and see folks are having a hard time getting jobs out of residency.

Easier from an intellectual/skill standpoint not easier from an hours worked standpoint.

I have yet to encounter anything in med school which requires me to really figure anything out or think deeply. Its just repetitive memorization, unless you are going MD/PhD you rarely will be "figuring" anything out. Everything you encounter in medicine has already occurred and been wrote about in textbooks. You will never be determining drug interactions in the clinical setting based on something you remember from organic chemistry. Medicine is all evidence based meaning all the problem solving has already been done.

Assuming you are starting a business you get to figure out everything...and if you anything but perfect, you dont get rich. Also I would content successful tech-business owners work close to 80 hours per week.


P.S. Alot of those radiologist could get jobs, they are just being picky with either location or salary.

 

[link2swim06]

Willingness to take risk means that inspite all your efforts you may fail. You just can't make it happen every time. Sucess in business or medicine or any other endevour requires effort. Starting a business, however, involves much more risk. Bell and Grey applied for patent for telephone on the same day few hours apart, Bell being few hours ahead, and got the patent. Hayes who developed Hayes modem was a billionaire. Some one built a new modem and drove Hayes to bankruptcy, and Hayes was literally penniless.

Actually lot of it is luck and many business startups fail. There is survivor bias in anecdtoes of rich and famous.

Individual business ventures may have a "luck" aspect...but if the person has the "right stuff" over several business ventures they are going to net success regardless of luck.

 

[Law2Doc]

Individual business ventures may have a "luck" aspect...but if the person has the "right stuff" over several business ventures they are going to net success regardless of luck.

Agreed. There is a luck component in any career, but success is still largely skill based. Bill Gates didn't get lucky. DOS was a good idea, and he skillfully leveraged that into a lucrative deal from IBM and ultimately a very successful company. Without the skill or idea, he's just another college dropout. Without having the willingness to take the risk of failure, he could never succeed, but that doesn't really mean he was simply lucky and rolling dice.

 

[Law2Doc]

... Everything you encounter in medicine has already occurred and been wrote about in textbooks...

having participated in several case reports I can assure you this isn't even close to true.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

P.S. Alot of those radiologist could get jobs, they are just being picky with either location or salary.

I know folks in both fields who have been looking for jobs for a while now and aren't picky geographically who would tell you otherwise. folks aren't retiring in this economy, so the number of job openings has dwindled to minimal. Cardiology is reportedly tight as well -- I know a guy who has been " between jobs" for quite a while. If the bad economy persists, you will start to see this impact more specialties. There are no guarantees in a bad economy.

 

[IMSingular]

Individual business ventures may have a "luck" aspect...but if the person has the "right stuff" over several business ventures they are going to net success regardless of luck.

Agreed. But if your first venture fails you may not get second chance. If your first venture is success then you will be ok. More than ventures go under. Even good ideas like beta-max with a support of Sony failed. What is "Right Stuff" is mostly Monday morning quarter backing, and these anecdotes of "Right Stuff" have lot of survivor bias.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Well then, not everyone will not pursue business ventures.to those that do, then they may do better than doctors for financially. But for someone not willing to take those risks (and not in investment banking), the guarateed six figure salary of being doctor might be better than coming in as a junior analyst on a low salary, and ending your work career as a senior analyst with low salary. That is the more probable route. Not everyone in business world is Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg.

 

[link2swim06]

having participated in several case reports I can assure you this isn't even close to true.

"Everything" was a slight overstatement...99.5% of over your patients will have a something already seen, tested and wrote about. My point is the majority of practicing medicine isnt about solving novel problems. Its about knowing patterns and knowing how to extract information/physical findings from your patients.

 

[Law2Doc]

Agreed. But if your first venture fails you may not get second chance. If your first venture is success then you will be ok. More than ventures go under. Even good ideas like beta-max with a support of Sony failed. What is "Right Stuff" is mostly Monday morning quarter backing, and these anecdotes of "Right Stuff" have lot of survivor bias.

Betamax didn't fail randomly, based on bad luck. VHS beat them with better marketing and price and more flexibility. So too with 8 tracks being beaten by cassette. In general when an inferior product wins in the market, it's ALL about skill, not luck. Someone did a better job of convincing people to buy a weaker product.

 

[link2swim06]

I know folks in both fields who have been looking for jobs for a while now and aren't picky geographically who would tell you otherwise. folks aren't retiring in this economy, so the number of job openings has dwindled to minimal. Cardiology is reportedly tight as well -- I know a guy who has been " between jobs" for quite a while. If the bad economy persists, you will start to see this impact more specialties. There are no guarantees in a bad economy.

If you have a license you can moonlight in an urgent care. The VA has radiology jobs in many places....but you are only going to make 200-250K.

Work is there, just not the jobs radiologist could easily get 10 years ago.

The point is even with moonlighting in an urgent care/ED you still make six figures...everyone with a medical license has the ability and opportunity.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I keep thinking that if I go for an mba I would end up making 70k yearly doing some cake job. I don't mind but it isn't the amount of money I was looking for.

There's no such thing as a cake job if you want to retire at 42. Go to a high powered MBA program and with the connections you make there, you can land a job between 150k and 250k/year at the age of 25. You'll also be working 60-80 hour weeks but that's what's necessary to succeed. Within 5-10 years, you should have enough knowledge to make partner or strike it out on your own.

Or you can go play the lotto and see what the **** happens.

Either way, going to med school solely for the money is a terrible idea and you will be miserable for years before you actually make the boku bucks.

 

[IMSingular]

... Bill Gates didn't get lucky. DOS was a good idea, and he skillfully leveraged that into a lucrative deal from IBM and ultimately a very successful company. Without the skill or idea, he's just another college dropout. Without having the willingness to take the risk of failure, he could never succeed, but that doesn't really mean he was simply lucky and rolling dice.

Actually Bill Gates didn't invent DOS. He bought it and marketed it. There was DR DOS in addition to MS DOS. One of the reasons Bill Gates got contract from IBM was that Bill Gates' mother and IBM CEO were member of the same Board of Director, and Bill's mother and IBM CEO had a chat about "What your son is doing". I have heard from my freinds who are pretty competent in computer science that DR DOS was a better product. Microsoft IE was also developed by some one else, and Microsoft was infinging on copy rights, and ultimately paid the guy several million dollars and bought it. MS Office was actually developed for Apple, and basic idea came from Apple.

There lies, damn lies and statistics, and then there are anecdotes.

 

[IMSingular]

Betamax didn't fail randomly, based on bad luck. VHS beat them with better marketing and price and more flexibility. So too with 8 tracks being beaten by cassette. In general when an inferior product wins in the market, it's ALL about skill, not luck. Someone did a better job of convincing people to buy a weaker product.

Me thinks it's all about Monday morning quarter backing.

 

[Law2Doc]

"Everything" was a slight overstatement...99.5% of over your patients will have a something already seen, tested and wrote about. My point is the majority of practicing medicine isnt about solving novel problems. Its about knowing patterns and knowing how to extract information/physical findings from your patients.

Sort of. The majority of most medical specialties is the doctor patient interaction -- it's a service industry. The minority is the book smarts. Problem solving is huge, actually -- you won't be presented with novel diseases, but the presentation is never identical, and many many diseases overlap in terms of presentation. For example you will have a patient with "flu-like symptoms." From this starting point, your differential includes hundreds of diseases, requiring one of several mutually exclusive treatments. So you need to decide on tests that will narrow that list to a smaller number if culprits. It becomes a big logic and reasoning problem. You can't just pattern recognize and treat, because if it's infectious and you treat it as inflammatory (ie steroids), the patient will get much sicker.

 

[Law2Doc]

Me thinks it's all about Monday morning quarter backing.

Which is why you will never be rich.

 

[kpcrew]

None of it is luck. If you have a good ideas for a business, and are willing to take the risks, you can make it happen. Failures are a function of how good the idea is and how good you are at lining up backing and the people needed to make the dream a reality. It's all skill. I worked with these guys in my prior career, and they weren't just getting lucky.

if you want to start a business and the economy has been in a downturn and you happen to catch it on the upswing, that's luck. if you happen to have a connection to investors so that your business can be successful, that's luck. if people suddenly decide that they need something and you happen to provide it, that's luck. there's a ton of luck involved in starting a business, you can't account for every single variable. there's a lot of skill and effort involved, but you can't say that every successful business or every failed one had their fates determined by the identity of the people starting them.

 

[Law2Doc]

Actually Bill Gates didn't invent DOS. He bought it and marketed it. There was DR DOS in addition to MS DOS. One of the reasons Bill Gates got contract from IBM was that Bill Gates' mother and IBM CEO were member of the same Board of Director, and Bill's mother and IBM CEO had a chat about "What your son is doing". I have heard from my freinds who are pretty competent in computer science that DR DOS was a better product. Microsoft IE was also developed by some one else, and Microsoft was infinging on copy rights, and ultimately paid the guy several million dollars and bought it. MS Office was actually developed for Apple, and basic idea came from Apple.

There lies, damn lies and statistics, and then there are anecdotes.

I didn't say he invented it. I said it was a good idea and he leveraged it. No luck involved. Nor did Jobs invent the GUI or the mouse (snagged both from Xerox) nor did Edison invent the light bulb (stole it from Schwann and improved it). The Facebook guy got sued for pilfering his idea as well. Ultimately whose idea it is is irrelevant, although it saves you legal issues if it's your own. Sometimes the key is to recognize the implications of an idea and run with it. Which again is a skill.

 

[IMSingular]

Which is why you will never be rich.

I never set my life's goal as becoming rich. I, hwoever, have made pretty comfortable living.
You, however, will never be a real Quarterback.

 

[link2swim06]

if you want to start a business and the economy has been in a downturn and you happen to catch it on the upswing, that's luck. if you happen to have a connection to investors so that your business can be successful, that's luck. if people suddenly decide that they need something and you happen to provide it, that's luck. there's a ton of luck involved in starting a business, you can't account for every single variable. there's a lot of skill and effort involved, but you can't say that every successful business or every failed one had their fates determined by the identity of the people starting them.

Not all business are dependent on the economy. Actually the type of business discussed above are pretty insulated to the downturn in the economy.

Would facebook have failed if was during the downturn of the economy?

Hell...zynga is selling tons of fake tractors in farmville and apple is selling a ridiculous number of overpriced laptops in this bad economy. "Luck" is the variables you dont understand...the more you are dependent on luck the less you understand what is going on.

 

[Law2Doc]

if you want to start a business and the economy has been in a downturn and you happen to catch it on the upswing, that's luck. if you happen to have a connection to investors so that your business can be successful, that's luck. if people suddenly decide that they need something and you happen to provide it, that's luck. there's a ton of luck involved in starting a business, you can't account for every single variable. there's a lot of skill and effort involved, but you can't say that every successful business or every failed one had their fates determined by the identity of the people starting them.

There's that kind of luck in any career. In medicine if you happen to go into a specialty or start a practice in a geographic locale that gets hot, that's luck too. None of what you say negates the fact that someone with an idea, the "balls" to bank on it, and the skills to effectively market his idea is often going to be successful based on skill.