Moonlighting

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sobored

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Current M2, soon to be M3 here. I've been thinking a lot about RadOnc, but have a weird question about residency (excuse my ignorance).

Say you complete an IM intern year, is it possible to moonlight in medicine during PGY2-5? Don't know much about the topic and just curious... Thanks
 
Current M2, soon to be M3 here. I've been thinking a lot about RadOnc, but have a weird question about residency (excuse my ignorance).

Say you complete an IM intern year, is it possible to moonlight in medicine during PGY2-5? Don't know much about the topic and just curious... Thanks

Do your IM rotation, a prelim medicine year, and then get back to us about your interest in moonlighting in IM during radonc residency
 
I hear what you are saying, but I'm just asking a question. Do people do it? Is it common? I understand people try to make extra money to help pay for loans or whatever, so I am wondering if people in radonc do it. And if not is it because you are too busy? No interest in doing it? Program dependent?
 
I hear what you are saying, but I'm just asking a question. Do people do it? Is it common? I understand people try to make extra money to help pay for loans or whatever, so I am wondering if people in radonc do it. And if not is it because you are too busy? No interest in doing it? Program dependent?
I don't hear of people doing that often. I do hear about occasional gigs where you are paid to be a supervising physician at radiology centers when they are giving contrast. I've also heard of upper level residents doing locum work for private physicians when they go on vacation
 
I don't hear of people doing that often. I do hear about occasional gigs where you are paid to be a supervising physician at radiology centers when they are giving contrast. I've also heard of upper level residents doing locum work for private physicians when they go on vacation

Interesting. Thanks for that response. I assume the ability to do what you describe depends on whether the program allows it? It seems like these would be nice options for extra income during dedicated research time (when you're not doing research of course). (Again, this is med student perspective so sorry if it sounds dumb).
 
Some programs allow it and others do not. I know of a few radonc residents who moonlight at certain types of clinics with low liability, such as dietary clinics giving nutritional advice and providing certain prescriptions. So it is possible but definitely not the norm.
 
I hear what you are saying, but I'm just asking a question. Do people do it? Is it common? I understand people try to make extra money to help pay for loans or whatever, so I am wondering if people in radonc do it. And if not is it because you are too busy? No interest in doing it? Program dependent?

At least for me, the thought of stepping foot on an internal medicine service again after intern year was nauseating. That being said, even if you were interested, it will be tough. From what I saw, most of these moonlighting gigs are filled by people in primary care residencies.
 
Its so funny how willing to talk about moonlighting different fields are. In my experience Radiation Oncology is definitely a little hush hush about it, which is a tad odd.

Moonlighting will be of varying importance to different applicants, for me it was pretty important. Not one of my top criteria, but definitely something I actively considered and used a tie breaker a few times on my rank list. I have a family with children and so the first few years of residency will be very tight financially without a little bit of moonlighting.

Of the nearly 20 places I interviewed at maybe half allowed moonlighting, 5 strictly forbid it and the other 5 were on the fence, ie "We used to do it but that was so long ago I'm not sure if its still allowed."

First, as a Rad Onc resident if you apply for and obtain your own independent license you are absolutely legally allowed to moonlight. However, most hospitals require you to obtain permission from your PD before starting. So really, its the PD who will ultimately decide if you are allowed to moonlight in your program.

So, once you have your own license and your PD is on board with you moonlighting the next two things are where and for how many hours. Moonlighting hours count towards the 80 hour limit put in place by the ACGME. Which is one of the reasons why the rad onc work schedule allows for moonlighting.

As far as the types of moonlighting, you mentioned IM, but generally thats not where residents mooonlight. All the residents I know generally moonlight in one of three places: Emergency room, urgent care or radiology contrast center. Depending on your comfort level, you can choose which of those is the most appealing. Malpractice insurance is very important, but many steady moonlight gigs will provide it. If they don't, however, then you will be responsible for purchasing your own insurance.

One consideration to remember is that taxes generally aren't taken out when you are paid as a contractor for moonlighting. I've been told to set aside 40% of what you earn for taxes. So as you weigh whether its worth your time investment, take whatever hourly rate you think you'll earn (Varies VERY widely by where you are in the country, i've heard as low as $50 to as high as $150) and account for taxes. If you have a family with many mouths to feed, then it may be worth it. Most single rad onc residents can live comfortably on their stipends and value free time over more money and so choose not to moonlight, which is likely what I would do if I was single.

Lastly, if you want to find out who allows moonlighting, the only way to really find out is during your interview day. The best people to ask are the current residents. Either on the tour, dinner, lunch or visiting time just casually ask if any of the residents have done any moonlighting.

I wouldn't use moonlighting as a means of determining if Rad Onc is the right field for you, or even to limit which programs you apply to (apply to them all). However, if it is important to you, a good mix of programs you end up interviewing at will likely allow moonlighting and you can prioritize that however you'd like come rank list time. Good luck!
 
A few comments;

1) I think it is unrealistic to expect to be able to moonlight as a PGY-2; rad onc is one of those specialties with a very steep learning curve and your first year should be spent focusing on actually learning the basics. Any extra time not spent with family, should really be invested in learning more about the specialty you are going to practice.

2) PDs can be very leery of allowing moonlighting, and from what I have seen, usually wont let a PGY2 moonlight and only allow those residents exceeeding expectations moonlight as PGY-3-5.

3) The amount of "free time" you will have will vary from program to program but I would advise that instead of moonlighting one might need to spend time doing research, learning physics/biology (classes only help so much), and studying the clinical side. While these don't provide income, they are definitely an investment in your future.

I have seen a few rad onc residents moonlight but it was pretty limited. Rads IV contrast jobs are hard to come by cause the rads residents normally have first dibs. I don't know how comfortable I would have felt covering an ED/urgent care shift after an internship.

While I agree with you, I don't think that one 8 hour shift in an urgent care per month would really limit your ability to invest in your future with Rad Onc. Perhaps people have different expectations, but I think doing a regular weekly shift, etc would be too much. For me at least, the moonlighting will require sacrificing family time, not time I would have spent reading, doing research, or improving my career for rad onc.

For families the calculus is: Spouse works full time missing out on 40+ hours a week with children (Limited earning potential plus day care for 2+ kids), or I work one 8 hour shift at an urgent care a month which allows us to stay afloat and lets the spouse stay home. I intend to work my bum off in residency, but if sacrificing one Sunday a month with my family means they can have a better life, then I'll gladly do it.
 
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I don't know how comfortable I would have felt covering an ED/urgent care shift after an internship.

Urgent care solo, yes. ED solo, hell no. I'd only do ED if an ED doctor in house and I was functioning like a PA.
 
I moonlighted from PGY3 - PGY5 an average of 24 hours per week (often many more) or so at a rehab center. Mostly cookbook medicine writing methadone tapers or Librium for alcoholics. I thought it was the perfect gig personally..lots of down time which I used to study. My wife got to stay home with our young kids, which is what she wanted.

Glad those days are over, but wouldn't change a thing.
 
For anyone training in Philly interested in moonlighting, Valley Forge Medical Center is where I worked. PM me if you'd like contact info for the HR person.
 
Thanks for all the responses everyone. Lots of good insight into a topic I couldn't find a lot about for this field.
 
At UPMC, we did inpatient shifts on the oncology wards, from 6pm - 12am on weeknights. Usually $60/hr, usually dismissed at 11p. You saw a few new admissions (0-2 was typical, think I did 3 once), presented it to fellow, and did the dictation for it. Or, if it went to the intern, you'd help them work through it. Was neutropenic fevers, pneumonias, etc. Wasn't bad at all. But, think it's been cracked down, as residents were moonlighting in our program without being very competent in basic rad onc.
 
I think the cost benefit side of this has been left out. In NC we have some pretty sweet deals set up. We have a few large community hospitals close by. They will hire residents and fellows with IM training (not TY) to admit patients to medicine after when called in by ED physicians. On the one hand I would feel very comfortable doing the job and the pay is great (1-2k per shift). But it's really no feasible to expect me to make any money doing it. It's not at my home institution and given the full MD pay rate your expected to pony up for MP insurance. One or two shifts per month would barely more than break even and as everyone said above you don't have time for more than that. I like some primary care and working with trainees so I do a shift here or there at our free community clinic in the evening. You don't get money but if you want to do a little PC or keep your basic procedures fresh that's another route.
 
And one more thing. I hate to sound cynical but all you med students need to realize that we all go through a bit of Stockholm syndrome and you still identifying with your abusers. You are very much a doctor in rad onc and most trainees quickly find they don't even want to go back for more with a little recovery, despite how they felt when applying for residency.
 
And one more thing. I hate to sound cynical but all you med students need to realize that we all go through a bit of Stockholm syndrome and you still identifying with your abusers. You are very much a doctor in rad onc and most trainees quickly find they don't even want to go back for more with a little recovery, despite how they felt when applying for residency.

Meaning once you taste the wonder that is Rad Onc full time, you don't want to go back to the other?
 
And one more thing. I hate to sound cynical but all you med students need to realize that we all go through a bit of Stockholm syndrome and you still identifying with your abusers. You are very much a doctor in rad onc and most trainees quickly find they don't even want to go back for more with a little recovery, despite how they felt when applying for residency.

True sentiment..but depends on where you're coming from. Had I been single, no kids during residency or independently wealthy, would I have moonlighted for the extra spending cash? Hells no! But for some, it's a thing of necessity.

In response to malpractice, my gig at least included malpractice (with tail coverage) and the pay was around $50/hour. But tons of down time. I picked up plenty of shifts while studying for physics and written a because I figured I wouldn't be available to the fam anyway, so may as well get paid to study.

I personally would not have moonlighted in an ER, we're just too far removed from primary care. And this is coming from a guy who worked as a paramedic for close to 12 years..

If you find yourself in a situation where moonlighting is a necessary stop gap, if look to either a radiology center or a rehab center.

I also did a bunch of locums during my last 6 months, which was easy cash and also eye opening as to how many practices operate.
 
Meaning once you taste the wonder that is Rad Onc full time, you don't want to go back to the other?[/

Pretty much. You went through med school doing basically everything but rad onc and can't help but form a picture of what being a doctor is and from that perspective moon lighting makes more sense early on. Unless you really need the money that usually changes once you really get into things. Admittedly I'm very fortunate. I have a ton of debt (I grew up very middle class and had to borrow everything on my own) but my lady and I met in grad school and she has moved on to a big person salary 🙂 We certainly are not loaded but I can manage my debt as a resident. I put a high value on being at home when I can and I have the luxury of not needing to get extra money.
 
We certainly are not loaded but I can manage my debt as a resident. I put a high value on being at home when I can and I have the luxury of not needing to get extra money.

!!!!

Can't put a value on time IMO. If you are in a position to not have to moonlight, it's a nice situation to be in. I wouldn't trade my vacation/free time as a resident or an attending for more $$$. This is of course a personal calculation for each person.
 
I wanted to jumpstart this conversation again and focus a little more on methadone clinic moonlighting. I recently got an offer to work for a local clinic, but wanted to know if anyone had good/bad experiences doing it? It seems pretty straight forward and they can work around my hours, which is great. However, methadone can be dangerous and I'm a little apprehensive with the risks associated with it. Thoughts?
 
Moonlighting at a methadone clinic seems like a really bad idea to me. Those patients are complicated and some of them can be shady - not to mention some of the clinic owners are shady as well. Not all of them, but some.

I can't imagine your program director would be cool with this, either.

Unless you're in Chevy Chase in Dirty Work levels of debt to the mob, I'd shy way.
 
I have to agree with Bobby. I can't really see anything good coming from this. Despite what you may have heard there is nothing straight forward about those jobs. At all. If it ends with the word clinic then the MDs on site are responsible for everything that goes on there. You know what goes with drug use? Mental issues including psychosis. You are in no way qualified to deal with that when it comes up I don't care what anyone there tells you.

Honestly, your a rad onc resident. Unless you have an extreme situation (wife with cancer or other costly disability etc.) or your goal is to be really rich (in which case you made bad choices already) then put it out of your mind. Rad oncs get paid very well. You have enough to worry about as a resident. Money shouldn't be one of them. There are exceptionally few financially struggling radiation oncologists.
 
I wanted to jumpstart this conversation again and focus a little more on methadone clinic moonlighting. I recently got an offer to work for a local clinic, but wanted to know if anyone had good/bad experiences doing it? It seems pretty straight forward and they can work around my hours, which is great. However, methadone can be dangerous and I'm a little apprehensive with the risks associated with it. Thoughts?

I think moonlighting is great. With a family, the money has been crucial for us to survive. Additionally, I’ve grown more confident in my clinical decisions and my ability to manage patients symptoms. That said, I wouldn’t moonlight in a methadone clinic for the reasons listed above. The patients that use methadone clinic are mostly addicts and this leads itself to unstable people and IMO people more willing to cause legal issues. I’d try and find something else
 
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