Moral Question? (Warning: Alot of text)

[ThrowawayDoctor]

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Hello,
I have a really unique situation that I want to explain below but I want to let you guys up front that this is a very shady process in general and that I fully understand the moral implications of what I am suggesting below. This has been weighing heavily on my mind lately and I am still making my mind on what to do.

Firstly, I definitely want to provide some background information but I would prefer to leave things relatively general. I attend a top 50 undergrad program, could be anywhere within there, but I do not want to get more specific. After 3 years of undergrad I am applying with a 3.80ish cumulative GPA, with an enormous upward trend after first year, first semester (3.35 first semester to 3.9+ average). I also recently received my MCAT score back and managed to score a 35+ which I am very happy with.

My question has to do with the AMCAS submission. This has been beat to death but I have not managed to find a situation quite like mine. AMCAS asks for a transcript of ALL SCHOOLS that I have ever attended/enrolled in. During my first year summer I took ORGO 1 and 2 at my local community college to prep for the course at my undergrad. I did the same at the start of second year summer in order to prep for PHYSICS 1. I took all three for a grade and made an A+ in every course. I was listed as a non-curricular student during the timing for these courses.

Why did I do the above? For one I wanted to prep for the harder version at my university and second because I was tutoring at the community college during the day anyways and figured it was efficient to take a night course before heading home for the day.

At my University I have already finished every single one of the courses I listed above and managed an A+ in two of them –Orgo 1 and Physics 1. I also got an A in Orgo 2. However now that the application cycle has rolled around I am facing a moral problem in that I fear I will lose serious credibility due to the repetition of the courses. It is my fault for being misinformed at the time but I took these courses without taking into account that I would have to send in the transcript for them later. Now my first question, is this a deal breaker? These are serious pre-req courses and I feel like I am under tremendous pressure to not report these grades and just risk the result.

My parents have suggested very strongly to me that I should not report the transcript. This is because traditionally the catch-net of student clearinghouse, etc is meant to find those who did poorly and then tried to cover up the grades later. Their argument is that if they find a transcript of all A's then it would be reasonable to say then that I forgot to send in the transcript (since it could be easily argued that it would have helped me). I know this is ridiculous but I am extremely concerned that the repetition of courses is a major problem area.

Believe it or not this story still does not end here. I actually went back to the local community college and was able to explain my story to a dean. He was actually surprisingly sympathetic (possibly because of the free tutoring over the summer that I did) and told me that he could erase my data from the school since I only took 3 courses over the summer, and I was not trying to 'cover up' grades lower than an A+. He told me that since I had not taken any student loans that it was very easy to remove a student from the network.

This entire fiasco is ridiculous but to summarize everything I would just like to ask if 3 CC credits, even if they are A's, would be a deal-breaker if you RETOOK them at the normal undergrad and made similar grades there as well. I thank you ahead of time for your opinion.

 

[BigBlueBear]

lol

It would be one thing if you got C's at your university in those courses. But you got A's. Don't sweat it. But certainly report the transcript.

Also--Troll sensors are tingling

 

[Hemorrage]

If AMCAS finds out you're probably going to be in trouble, but they probably won't so go with your instinct

 

[ScholarStud]

Hey man the way I see it is that you pulled As in the uni classes as well--meaning you showed you can handle the material. That's what matters. I would definitely report the grades because #1 if you get caught you are so f*cked, i mean seriously so f*cked, and #2 it's the right thing to do 😀

 

[ThrowawayDoctor]

lol

It would be one thing if you got C's at your university in those courses. But you got A's. Don't sweat it. But certainly report the transcript.

Also--Troll sensors are tingling

Hey -thanks for the answer. I can assure you this is no troll post (I would have done it on my normal account if it were).

I appreciate your answer but if you guys could comment on the dean option...I am not too clear with what he means to do. It was an awkward conversation to say the least since I had to convince him initially that 3 A+'s would actually look bad for me (in this context). After that he sort of said, "You know, throwawaydoc, I can just remove you from the system..." and sort of went from there.

 

[Ohyeah]

I'm not sure how sending both transcripts will be perceived. It may be seen as a "handicap" or some sort of disqualifying advantage, or it may not matter since your GPA at your university and MCAT score demonstrate that you are adequately prepared for medical school (which is ultimately what these measures are supposed to indicate, right?)

Doing a quick cost analysis in my head:

The cost of getting caught withholding a transcript may be high. I don't know how big a deal it is to hide A+ grades... but it is VERY clearly stated that ALL transcripts are required. Ignoring this rule could technically be grounds for dismissal of your application. Would they actually find out? Would they actually do it? Even if the CC dean deletes his records? I don't know.

The cost of submitting both transcripts is much lower. Nearly all secondary applications allow room for some extra explanations. You can use that to point out your CC tutoring (a big positive!) and motivations at the time to prepare yourself for the university courses (possibly positive... possibly negative... or neutral?)

It's my belief that you're safer just sending everything in, and explaining on the apps what you did. I would not take the dean's word that all traces of your CC education will disappear.

 

[Ohyeah]

Bonus: use this dean story in secondaries/interviews when asked about ethical/challenging decisions, driving home that you're honest and committed to doing the right thing.


I'm kidding. I think.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Try running a report through this organization. My guess is that even if the dean "deletes you" your enrollment would still show up.

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/colleges/student_self_service/

 

[mehc012]

This is not a moral question. The morals are quite clear: lying on your AMCAS is wrong and unethical.

It would be wrong if you had scored all F's; why should it be any less wrong because you scored all As? The only difference between those two is how likely they are to harm your application (F's would hurt your GPA, As probably no effect).

This is also just the stupidest, most neurotic question I have ever seen on SDN. That's actually impressive...you should put THAT on your app as an accomplishment!

 

[xffan624]

This is not a moral question. The morals are quite clear: lying on your AMCAS is wrong and unethical.

It would be wrong if you had scored all F's; why should it be any less wrong because you scored all As? The only difference between those two is how likely they are to harm your application (F's would hurt your GPA, As probably no effect).

This is also just the stupidest, most neurotic question I have ever seen on SDN. That's actually impressive...you should put THAT on your app as an accomplishment!

👍

 

[WhovianDO]

I don't think the CC courses will hurt your chances. Why would it? You could just tell them the truth and say "I took these courses at my local CC so that I would be prepared for the much harder courses at my uni." Why would that be a negative thing? I don't see any reason to lie or not submit the transcript. You made A's at both institutions.

Also, not sending in a transcript is not a good idea because of the repercussions you could face if you were caught. The Dean suggesting removal from he system is wrong as well, IMO. That's lying also since its saying that you never attended, when in fact you did.

 

[kmp0410]

Seriously...

Report them, there is no way taking classes for an A+ will hurt you in any way.

Your reason is pretty valid anways, you wanted to make sure that you understood the material as best you could.

As long as you spin it that way, and not "I wanted to have a leg up for my university class" then its a complete non issue. Especially since you were home for summer, tutoring at that school, etc there is plenty of legit reasons for you taking those classes. If anything it shows a commitment to learning.

 

[IncognitoGuy]

Also, you have no idea how AMCAS works - what agencies they work through, or how much depth they have. The Dean might claim he can do what he says, but his influence only extends so far. There's no guarantee it'll happen for sure, and I think you'd be better off explaining in advance these grades as opposed to being blindsided by being caught trying to hide them. AMCAS wants what it wants.

Also, if you have the MCAT, the grade trend (I'm guessing these are also upper-level courses you're making 3.9+ in), I don't see why it's a problem. Your credentials speak for themselves once you validate yourself in upper-level courses, which it looks like you have done with flying colors.

 

[dsoz]

I sense the troll in this one...

You took Organic I, Organic II, and physics over two summers and you only got three credits (last paragraph talking about the dean)???? That sound like a story right there.

Then you pulled A+ in organic, but ended up with a freshman GPA of 3.35? what did you not get an A in? underwater basketry? Were you so focused on your organic chem that you let other grades slip to C? I am not buying it.

Those go into a national clearinghouse that archives ALL your credits tied to your SSN. Good luck trying to get those "erased."

Just to verify, ask the community college for a transcript.

Nice try, but the internal inconsistencies make this a 1/10 troll.

dsoz

Oh, just in case it is real... report the stupid classes that you took at the CC. Nobody will care.

 

[erutha95]

.

 

[Microglia]

If not a troll: definitely report the classes. I seriously can't see this hurting you if you got good grades both in college and CC. No one should care about repetition if you did well everywhere you went. Send all transcripts because risking some sort of AAMC problem is absolutely not worth not reporting some A+'s. Not reporting could actually hurt you, being honest wouldn't. I highly doubt any school will bat their eyes at having done well in a community college.

 

[Doctor Strange]

This story is just so shady, and the risk you're trying to take to cover something this inconsequential up is absolutely ridiculous.

You MUST report all college-level courses taken to AMCAS. Reporting these courses is NOT going to hurt you at all. This can easily be spun as "I wanted to take these courses at the University level instead of the CC level to better prepare for the MCAT" or something like that if anyone (I doubt they will) brings it up.

The alternative you're proposing is straight up fraud and will blacklist you forevermore if (and when) you get caught.

 

[volcomx]

You could always spin it this way: before college you wanted to take these classes to "get them out of the way." You realized you did well in them and enjoyed them. You also realized that it would look bad if you took "easy" CC classes to complete your premed reqs. You decided to retake them at a 4 year university to show medical schools you can handle hard sciences at a reputable institution. Absolutely no harm done.

Think about it this way...AP classes fullfiled a bunch of my prereqs. But I still had to repeat some classes because some med schools don't take APs. Similarly, some medical schools actually discount premed reqs taken at CCs.

Report the transcripts and don't worry about it.

 

[ThrowawayDoctor]

I sense the troll in this one...

You took Organic I, Organic II, and physics over two summers and you only got three credits (last paragraph talking about the dean)???? That sound like a story right there.

Then you pulled A+ in organic, but ended up with a freshman GPA of 3.35? what did you not get an A in? underwater basketry? Were you so focused on your organic chem that you let other grades slip to C? I am not buying it.

Those go into a national clearinghouse that archives ALL your credits tied to your SSN. Good luck trying to get those "erased."

Just to verify, ask the community college for a transcript.

Nice try, but the internal inconsistencies make this a 1/10 troll.

dsoz

Oh, just in case it is real... report the stupid classes that you took at the CC. Nobody will care.

It was not three credits I meant as courses, my bad. It totals 10 credits of 3, 3, 4 for physics + physics lab. My freshman GPA was due primarily because I chose a bad schedule + barely did any work in comparison to what I put in now for my grades. Luckily I did not take 'upper levels' what would be my chosen major. I was initially in the honors chem course, did not do so well in both the class and the lab (B+ and B) and decided that against the curve it would be fruitless to continue. Additionally I made a B- in Calc 2 that semester as well (no real excuse other than work ethic). I realize the curve sounds shady but my premed advisor told me it's a grade trend she does not see often as well since people usually don't under-perform their ability level by that much.

As it turns out I probably could have kept going as I did not realize I put in just about zero work into my classes that semester anyways (somehow looking back I felt busy the entire time, not sure how). Either way I switched to the normal college chem track, buckled down, and worked much harder.

My last point that I want to address is that yes, there is more to the story which I was not forthcoming with before. First off, grades at the CC are as I said they were, seriously A+'s. If they weren't the other threads I read previously would suffice for my answer.

Second the 'issue' that I have is that one of my primary letter writers is my Orgo professor at my university since I managed to get top of his class the first and top 3 the second semester of Orgo (in addition to a couple other things). I was primarily worried that the CC credits would severely lessen the impact of his recommendation letter for me. Did the CC credit help me get top of the class? I am sure they did but how I think it LOOKS far worse than the reality of how much a 3 hour night class twice a week for 3 weeks actually helped me when the semester came around nearly 2-3 months later, and nearly 10 months for Orgo 2.

EDIT: Thank you for the PM's. I realize that there are actions I SHOULD have taken initially in order to avoid this entire problem altogether. At the time I did not know about the AMCAS rule, and even if I did I would not have known about the various databases that track enrollment. If I did I would probably have done what some of these suggestions are saying and enroll under my father's name, etc. I initially thought that by adding myself as a student from my normal university it would get me 'accepted' more quickly into the CC. In hindsight this was a mistake and a pretty stupid one at that.

 

[DAPI]

It was not three credits I meant as courses, my bad. It totals 10 credits of 3, 3, 4 for physics + physics lab. My freshman GPA was due primarily because I chose a bad schedule + barely did any work in comparison to what I put in now for my grades. Luckily I did not take 'upper levels' what would be my chosen major. I was initially in the honors chem course, did not do so well in both the class and the lab (B+ and B) and decided that against the curve it would be fruitless to continue. Additionally I made a B- in Calc 2 that semester as well (no real excuse other than work ethic). I realize the curve sounds shady but my premed advisor told me it's a grade trend she does not see often as well since people usually don't under-perform their ability level by that much.

As it turns out I probably could have kept going as I did not realize I put in just about zero work into my classes that semester anyways (somehow looking back I felt busy the entire time, not sure how). Either way I switched to the normal college chem track, buckled down, and worked much harder.

My last point that I want to address is that yes, there is more to the story which I was not forthcoming with before. First off, grades at the CC are as I said they were, seriously A+'s. If they weren't the other threads I read previously would suffice for my answer.

Second the 'issue' that I have is that one of my primary letter writers is my Orgo professor at my university since I managed to get top of his class the first and top 3 the second semester of Orgo (in addition to a couple other things). I was primarily worried that the CC credits would severely lessen the impact of his recommendation letter for me. Did the CC credit help me get top of the class? I am sure they did but how I think it LOOKS far worse than the reality of how much a 3 hour night class twice a week for 3 weeks actually helped me when the semester came around nearly 2-3 months later, and nearly 10 months for Orgo 2.

EDIT: Thank you for the PM's. I realize that there are actions I SHOULD have taken initially in order to avoid this entire problem altogether. At the time I did not know about the AMCAS rule, and even if I did I would not have known about the various databases that track enrollment. If I did I would probably have done what some of these suggestions are saying and enroll under my father's name, etc. I initially thought that by adding myself as a student from my normal university it would get me 'accepted' more quickly into the CC. In hindsight this was a mistake and a pretty stupid one at that.

I'm going with trolololo for that sentence alone.

But in the event that you're not a troll, you're intent is clearly to scam the system. Please don't report the CC grades and update us in 12 months. That way we will all know at least one dishonest person did not take the seat of a much more deserving person.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Enrolling under your father's name? Who suggested that? Are you honestly so desperate that you're willing to con the system? Grow a pair and own up to your decisions.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using SDN Mobile

 

[Dmr6186]

Report what you did. /story. /thread.

If you really did score as high as you say on the MCAT, it shows an understanding of the material. It goes beyond the type of classes as long as your GPA is fine.

 

[IncognitoGuy]

Enrolling under your father's name? Who suggested that? Are you honestly so desperate that you're willing to con the system? Grow a pair and own up to your decisions.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using SDN Mobile

Neuroticism at its finest. OP, report it and you'll be fine.

 

[image187]

this thread is a waste of time...

lol

 

[sinombre]

Hey -thanks for the answer. I can assure you this is no troll post (I would have done it on my normal account if it were).

I appreciate your answer but if you guys could comment on the dean option...I am not too clear with what he means to do. It was an awkward conversation to say the least since I had to convince him initially that 3 A+'s would actually look bad for me (in this context). After that he sort of said, "You know, throwawaydoc, I can just remove you from the system..." and sort of went from there.

Wait... so your normal account is a troll account? lol

Anyway, there is no downside to reporting the classes. Which is good, because you have to report them to AMCAS. Don't listen to your parents, unless they're on an admissions committee and actually understand the medical school application process.

 

[Wifey1985]

Hmm, I actually don't think OP is a troll (and yes, I do know that 'gullible' is written on the cieling).

OP: Report all of your transcripts, and just be prepared to explain why you did what you did if you're asked about it at interviews (and you probably won't be.)

Also, I'm really sorry that your parents have "suggested very strongly" that you lie. Maybe (hopefully) that's not indicative of your relationship with them generally, but that's some pretty bs advice and they should know better.

 

[MelonMan]

This might be too stupid to be a troll

 

[mehc012]

Hmm, I actually don't think OP is a troll (and yes, I do know that 'gullible' is written on the cieling).

I actually did write 'gullible' on my friend's ceiling once...the people who refused to look up would laugh at everyone who did for being fooled, and we all got to sit there laughing back at them for being the actual fools.

 

[galaxyx]

Easy solution. Look at the MSAR, find a school that doesn't accept community college credits. When someone asks about it: "well, I had time to take the classes during the summer at my CC, but I'm applying to "UofWhatever" and they don't accept CC credits so I had to retake the classes at my Uni"
Reasonable explanation, doesn't make you look bad.

Or "I had trouble transferring the credits so I decided to take the courses at my Uni rather than continue with the hassle"

 

[BamaSlamma]

For the record, enrollment is registered with the National Student Clearinghouse after the withdraw deadline at most schools, and transcripts are sent there after each semester. Even if the dead removed you from the schools database, your information is already at the national student clearinghouse. Good luck getting them to just make you disappear from their system for the CC.

Methinks you either got trolled by the dean, missed his sarcasm or he just wanted to get you out of his office. There's also the small chance that he's a complete and utter who doesn't know that his own school utilizes the national student clearinghouse.

 

[BamaSlamma]

Second the 'issue' that I have is that one of my primary letter writers is my Orgo professor at my university since I managed to get top of his class the first and top 3 the second semester of Orgo (in addition to a couple other things). I was primarily worried that the CC credits would severely lessen the impact of his recommendation letter for me. Did the CC credit help me get top of the class? I am sure they did but how I think it LOOKS far worse than the reality of how much a 3 hour night class twice a week for 3 weeks actually helped me when the semester came around nearly 2-3 months later, and nearly 10 months for Orgo 2.

Given this, I would strongly encourage you to talk to your professor before he gets to sitting down and writing your letter. There are some very easy ways to explain why you got A's in a CC over the summer. There are not a lot of GOOD ways to explain why your best LOR came from a prof that taught a class you'd already taken, who had no idea you had already taken them, and used your performance for the foundation of his letter.

IMHO, you're more likely to shoot yourself in the foot with the letter than the credits from the CC.