Morals Possibly Conflicting with Research

[Whitefox]

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Hi, I'm currently a high school senior with goals of hopefully becoming a physician-scientist (MD/PhD). However, I am also an ethical vegan and do not plan on performing any sort of research on animals and I am wholeheartedly against vivisection. In all of you all's experiences, will this be a problem for me? I was very interested in my college's neuroscience department and planned on majoring in it up until I contacted a professor and she informed that a major would not be possible without participating in animal experimentation, so I have since moved on to possibly double majoring in a social science and biochemistry. Also, before you ask, apparently a few before me have gone through the pre-medical curriculum at my school without testing on animals and by pursuing alternatives, so I'm fairly certain I can get all of my prerequisites out of the way, no problem, it's mainly the research I'm concerned about during my undergraduate years and later on when/if I'm doing research for my PhD.

So are there some road blocks in this path that would ultimately stop me in my tracks if my plan is to avoid animal testing or would this potentially be a possible path if I took certain precautions? Hopefully, I plan on focusing my career at least partially in ways to improve research overall by shifting from animal models to other methods, so I may just have to be prepared to carve my own new path, as it seems the vast majority of MD/PhD students are performing research on animals, at least according to student blogs I have read.

I wrestled a great deal with my choice to not pursue neuroscience at my school, and ultimately decided that I could still take the lecture courses without the lab component, but in the end I decided that the well-being of other sentient creatures trumps my own self-interest in having a certain major and performing experiments on these said animals.

Any advice for me? 😕

 

[Taikonaut]

Only advice I have is to get a reality check kid.

 

[PfNO22]

So are there some road blocks in this path that would ultimately stop me in my tracks if my plan is to avoid animal testing or would this potentially be a possible path if I took certain precautions? Hopefully, I plan on focusing my career at least partially in ways to improve research overall by shifting from animal models to other methods, so I may just have to be prepared to carve my own new path, as it seems the vast majority of MD/PhD students are performing research on animals, at least according to student blogs I have read.

Hi!

Yes! you will have to carve your own path. There are reasons why animal models are still used today that, at least for the time being, really make their use in neuroscience critical. Is there a reason you are interested in neuroscience? because there are other fields where animal models are not so critical ...

Also, there is A LOT of school left before your MD/PhD. Don't rule out anything yet!! You don't know what will happen over the next few years, don't paint yourself into a corner.

I share a lab with several ethical vegetarians and a vegan, but we work with Human red blood cells and a protozoan, so no harm done... Our counter parts studying mouse malaria do use mice, but they are able to study parts of malaria biology that can't be studied in our lab, and is not studied in humans.

Previously, I worked with mouse embryos, not ethical vegan approved. I was vegetarian then, and so probably a hypocrite I guess.

Have you spoken to an ethical vegan in research about this? Would you consider talking to an ethical vegan that does kill animals in her research? I think it could be very useful to you and is generally a good thing to find mentors (not necessarily lab heads) early.

Developing new techniques to study these processes could require training in Bioengineering and biotechnology; don't forget these.

 

[PfNO22]

Only advice I have is to get a reality check kid.

Ignore people with nothing interesting to say.

 

[Ombret]

"Vivisection" is kind of a loaded term. I know what it means literally, but it carries connotations of excessive or unnecessary live animal dissection. So I think you will find most biologists are, like you, opposed to this. Animal use in research is very carefully regimented (more carefully than human research, if you can believe it) and there is a lot of thought given to ways of minimizing or replacing animal experimentation. The fact that there are still so many animal studies shows just how critical whole-animal research is in biomedicine.

That said, not all biology is biomedical (although most physician-scientists are going to be on that end of the spectrum). In my cell biology PhD training, I never worked with animals or even came close to it, and not particularly because I was opposed to it. Neuroscience is obviously slanted towards studying models that have nervous systems, but still, there is molecular neuroscience and people have made whole careers in that area.

So I'll bet you CAN major in neuroscience despite what this professor said. It would be worth investigating further. Maybe it was just your specific approach that put her off, maybe she was misinformed or maybe it is not up to her. Maybe you can make a compromise with the universe and just hold your nose for one or two frog experiments in college. You will make many compromises with some ethical component to them over the course of your career. If you really want to be an anti-vivisectionist, you will have a greater influence if you enter this field and advocate for what you believe from within. So train as a neuroscientist and do something great without animal experiments.

 

[PTPoeny]

Are you willing to work with cell lines that need to be grown in the presence of FCS? Are you willing to do behavioral work with animals? Are you willing to work in a lab with people who are doing animal experiments?

I rotated through a lab that did no animal work, but it was also a malaria lab. All of the students in my program (cell biology) work with animals other than the students in that one lab. I think you are going to find your options very limited when it comes to choosing a lab. But if you are willing to make sacrifices and choose based on your ethics as opposed to your interests it might work. But you probably need to go to a really big school for your grad work or you are only going to have one or two labs to choose from and you are going to get screwed if you don't like them or they move or retire or go on leave.

 

[Shifty B]

My advice: focus on math, physics, or engineering while in undergrad. Then, you can select a research field where you can apply the skills you've gained towards a biomedical field. You'll have a world of options: simulations, device design, the list is pretty much endless. Then, if you want to do some pipetting, western blots, etc, that's fine too because those skills are easy to pick up. The opposite is not true; it's much more difficult to start a project which requires 4 years of heavy math experience if you don't have it.

I'd also reiterate the topic brought up by someone else above. Many products used in non-animal research are animal derived, like FBS, gelatin, etc. Even doing cell based research you are probably going to end up using animal products sometimes.

It's good that you are thinking about these things, but you are also a little ahead of yourself. Just go to college, work hard, and focus on learning and having a good time. Get a wide variety of experiences and then choose what you want to do. You may find yourself in something else entirely.

 

[URHere]

Interestingly, I was in a situation very similar to yours when I was in high school (minus the early interest in MD/PhD). I was a strict vegetarian and animal rights activist. I even gave public speeches against certain branches of animal research.

Flash forward about a decade and a lot has changed. I am no longer a vegetarian, and I have done a great deal of animal research in both rodents and primates. If someone had told me this 10 years ago, I would have laughed at them.

I guess I'm trying to say that time can change many things. Perhaps you will go to college and fall in love with vaccine or cancer research (things that can't really be studied well without animals). On the other hand, maybe nothing will change. My point is that you can't try to plan so far ahead quite yet. Go to college and figure out what modern research really entails - you can't decide where you fit in to the puzzle until you know what the pieces look like.

 

[Taikonaut]

Ignore people with nothing interesting to say.

Explain to me what part of being a vegan makes you an "ethical" vegan. Sounds like some pretentious hippie nonsense to me.

 

[Neuronix]

I did my PhD in biomedical imaging. I could have easily not disturbed living things if I didn't want to (though I did do some animal work).

Best prep for that would be a physics or engineering undergrad with NMR/MRI research, if you're interested in that sort of thing. It'll be really hard work to do that and keep a high GPA, but we do have some of those types in the program.

 

[Lil Mick]

There are several MD/PhD programs that allow students to do epidemiology, engineering, or biostats, as well as a few that permit a PhD in any discipline (U Chicago, Stanford, UIC from the top of my mind). I don't do any animal research and don't plan to do any at this time (not opposed to it, but I just don't like sacrificing animals at the end of a project). You have plenty of options 🙂

 

[gbwillner]

Only advice I have is to get a reality check kid.

No offense to the OP, but I gotta sort of agree with this post. Wanting to have a research career in the medical sciences and having strong political/ethical issues with the very things that make it work is like going on an all-night bender with Charlie Sheen the night before your MCAT.

Yes, there are way of sort-of making it work. You can do research without animal models, and the notion that all, or even most MD/PhD students use them is false. However, most of us do use animal products in everything we do, often without even realizing it. Where do you think those antibodies come from? So you need to ask yourself how strong are your convictions? Are you only opposed to killing animals, or is it any animal product?

As others have said, there are avenues where you can even avoid a lab bench all together. But to go into a career path with such a limited scope at the outset is like going to the all-you-can-eat chinese buffet but only wanting white rice.

/sorry about the metaphors, I was in the mood.

 

[Whitefox]

Thank you for all of the great replies everyone! All of it is very helpful and I'm taking it all into consideration. First, I'd like to address the fact that yes, I do realize compromises sometimes have to made. I also acknowledge the prevalence of animal products in everyday life and my philosophy is generally that, if it is easily avoidable, I can go without it. (Not ever sitting on leather seats is highly impractical as is avoiding foods with cane sugar just because cane sugar is processed through bone char - I am by no means a process-based vegan) Also worth noting is the fact that, while avoiding research entirely is an option that I could pursue and research is easily avoidable, I am willing to go through several compromises and the like to make it work.

To address Taikonaut, an ethical vegan simply means a vegan who chooses to avoid things that involve animal use for mainly moral-related reasons. I defined myself like that only because, while I appreciate that veganism provides benefits to my health and the environment among other things, I mainly choose to be a vegan because I believe using sentient creatures for anything that is easily avoidable is a morally questionable idea.

PfNo22, what field of research is your PhD in? And I wasn't aware of ethical vegans in research being a common thing. Do you know of any I could talk to? And yes, I would be willing to talk to one who does kill animals. As for training in bioengineering and biotechnology, my undergraduate school doesn't offer engineering courses; is that the only place I could get training in those fields? Would it be too late to begin study of those after I graduate?

Ombret, I really like your idea of entering the neuroscience field and influencing it from within. Also, I'm not entirely committed to neuroscience, I also may look into cell biology or biochemistry. However, according to the faculty member I spoke with (who is the department chair), the only roadblocks for me majoring in neuroscience are the required Neuroscience Laboratory course and one other lab (one lab can be replaced with a psych lab). If it's not too much work, do you mind telling me if any of these sound like better choices for me?

- Neuroscience Laboratory (required): "This laboratory exposes students to a variety of research techniques employed by neuroscientists: neuroanatomical procedures for staining and examining brain tissue; physiological procedures for recording the electrical activity of nerve cells; as well as commonly used techniques used to explore brain-behavior relationships (lesions, electrical and chemical stimulation). Some labs use computer simulations."

- Studies in Neuronal Function: "Students will investigate how neurons communicate and interact. The first four to six weeks in the laboratory will familiarize the student with methods used to investigate the actions of living neurons and with the design of experiments. The remainder of the semester will focus on the design, performance, and analysis of an original experiment. Students may need to schedule additional laboratory time outside of class to complete their independent experiment."

- Laboratory in Neuroanatomy: "This lab introduces students to neuroanatomical and neurohistological methods and techniques. Both the gross and fine microscopic anatomy of the nervous system are studied."

- Neuropharmacology Laboratory: "This laboratory is designed to introduce students to procedures used to explore the actions of drugs on the nervous system. The lab focuses on biochemical, cellular and behavioral approaches for understanding drug action. Students will gain experience not only with these relevant techniques, but also with experimental design and critical analysis of pharmacological data."

- Neuroendocrine Research Methods: "This laboratory will introduce a number of the principles and basic techniques used to study how hormones interact with the brain. Also, we will use the study of hormones to learn more about how to design and run scientific experiments. Some experiments will require participation outside of scheduled laboratory meetings."

Also, to the people who suggested I go into physics or math, I'm pretty far from interested in either of those fields at all, but I'll keep an open mind as I take the physics required for medical school. (By the way, is it a good idea to go ahead and do the calculus-based physics courses over the algebra-based ones even if I don't plan on majoring?)

Again, thanks everyone for the awesome suggestions! My current plan is probably going to be what many of you suggested I do: I'll go in, get my feet wet in research and all of the sciences, see what I like, and enjoy college.

Oh, and gbwillner, the more metaphors the better. I laughed.

 

[Neuronix]

(By the way, is it a good idea to go ahead and do the calculus-based physics courses over the algebra-based ones even if I don't plan on majoring?)

No. That's masochism only and don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

 

[PTPoeny]

(By the way, is it a good idea to go ahead and do the calculus-based physics courses over the algebra-based ones even if I don't plan on majoring?)

Is there any chance you think you would like physics enough to switch major/research interests? If yes, then take the calc based, if no take the algebra based.

 

[Schatzie20]

Hello I struggled with the idea of doing animal research myself and have decided to get a phd in neuropsychology instead of neuroscience.

 

[strangeglove]

As a cognitive neuroscientist, you can get away with never touching a living organism throughout your PhD and beyond. You will still need to read a lot of literature derived from animal research, and so you'll need to ask yourself whether merely consuming this "product" of animal use constitutes an ethical lapse, analogous to how eating meat might constitute an ethical lapse; i.e. you are consuming it, even though you didn't kill it yourself.

 

[jrouwhorst]

The Strangeglove Analogy isn't perfect (e.g. an animal doesn't die anew each time a PubMed article is read) but the basic implication is important.

Vegans refuse to buy leather goods because doing so would indirectly support the meat industry, but the parallel is also true.

Simply by acting as a medical consumer (i.e. patient) we are reinforcing this system of animal experimentation.

In the role of researcher, the blood is still there, but the difference is that we can clearly see it.

I think it's necessary to inform our conscience with some reason and ask the essential question: does a tremendous amount of animal suffering become justified when it can prevent a tremendous amount of human suffering?

That is the flaw of our predicament which we're tempted to overlook and avoid, but the answer is species-specific, and as humans, we would universally answer "yes".

As a 9-year vegetarian/vegan, it's not an admission that I enjoy making.

 

[Whitefox]

Actually, jrouwhorst, I have come to the same conclusion as of recently. After speaking with several professors at the school I will be matriculating at in the fall, seeing the opinions of students at various stages in the MD/PhD process on this thread, and just generally doing some heavy questioning on my own, I now believe that animal use in biomedical research is, while unfortunate, important and necessary. I'll probably have to still come to grips with it some more (I've never dissected anything before at all due to opting out of it all the time), but I'll probably use animals if needed, but if there's a chance I could go without them without affecting the quality of my research I may take it.

Thanks to everyone who helped me make this decision here on the forums. Hopefully there will be a day when animals are not required in this field, but for now, I'll try to be a "vegan on the inside" if that is at all possible/makes any sense/isn't completely hypocritical.

EDIT: Where exactly did you find this "strangeglove analogy" by the way? I have heard the general principle behind it, but never actually called that.

 

[PfNO22]

Thanks to everyone who helped me make this decision here on the forums. Hopefully there will be a day when animals are not required in this field, but for now, I'll try to be a "vegan on the inside" if that is at all possible/makes any sense/isn't completely hypocritical.

Just study and enjoy college. The rest will fall into place.


And don't rely too much on the internet to make your decisions...

 

[MSTPlease]

OP, before you even get to the PhD, how would handle gross anatomy in the 1st year where you dissect a cadaver? Or is that different because the person consents to it/died not at your hands?

 

[Orin]

We've all benefited from animals and their contributions to society, some of us are just more sensitive to their sacrifice than others.

Personally, I don't think there is a problem with any of the tracks you've discussed. Obviously you need to do some soul searching to define how rigid your boundaries are. That's a personal decision and if you draw too hard a line and confine yourself too tightly, it may make things difficult. I would sit down and think about things carefully before you just follow the Vegan Police blindly.

I would say though, the lack of animal lab experience would detract a bit from your education. I would think the Obie professors (Go Yeomen!) would have virtual options for their vegan hipsters. I'd recommend talking to the professors about it before you rule out labs totally. Lots of them would be willing to work with you if you are motivated and willing to give them options.

Again, just define your boundaries and work within them. Do you mind working with animal cell lines? How about insects? Do you mind working with stuff if it is already prepared, such as looking at an animal brain if it is already dissected out or looking at slides? If someone else is doing an experiment on an animal, would you be opposed to learning from the animal before it was sacrificed? If it will happen regardless of what you do, why not maximize the utility and benefit from it?

There are a good bit of vegetarians who do research, animal or otherwise. Personally I'd feel better if more researchers were vegans or vegetarians because they tend to respect and care for their animals better. Your long term research goals are great, but I'd think you would be more likely to be successful if you had some experience with animal models before you tried to replace them. There is a boatload of money out there for folks who can remove or reduce the need for animal and human subjects.

Whatever you, don't come in on a high horse and make a bunch of blanket statements or demands. People may think your beliefs are stupid, but they'll work with you if you aren't a jerk about it.

 

[Whitefox]

Thanks Orin, that post was really helpful. Did you graduate from Oberlin and can speak to the quality of certain science departments there? I'd love to learn a bit more from first-hand accounts about all of them. And MSTPlease, I have nothing at all against dissecting consenting human cadavers, because, as you said, they previously wished to donate their bodies to science after they died.