More then a 1/3 of AOA members are students

[Docgeorge]

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Members do not see this ad.

Ok so I could'nt sleep tonight and I was surfing the net and I found out that we as students make up more then a 1/3 (12,225/34,918) of the membership of the AOA, if the trend keeps going the way it is we will prob make up more then 1/2 the membership in a few years.

The question now becomes how do we parlay this volume of membership into getting the changes we want.

http://www.do-online.org/pdf/cal_hod05stfrepmemr115-17.pdf

 

[TCOM-2006]

interesting! well, in the AMA students make up a large chunk of the membership ... so students worked to get more representation in the HOD:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/7239.html

previously the entire AMA-MSS had just 1 delegate - now there's aprox 22 (making it larger than almost all state and specialty delegations - althought the mss is not an "official" delegation - we are seated with our state societies, but we do hold mss caucuses daily during the HOD session).

it might be worth investigating this option in the AOA (there is currently 1 delegate per school - so you would just have the compare the numbers)

more votes for students in the AOA (along as those students are willing to take a stand) = power to change the AOA.

 

[hylacinerea]

The question now becomes how do we parlay this volume of membership into getting the changes we want.

True, students make up a large percentage of the AOA, and yes there is power in numbers. However, I think we need to make the distinction between paying members and non-paying members i.e. students. It would be awful difficult to throw our weight around when we represent $0 in revenue for the AOA. Maybe this is why they don't respond favorably regarding issues such as the combined match. Hmm, we should demand to pay for our memberships now! 😀

 

[Docgeorge]

It does not matter weather we are paying members or not. The fact is that we are members and the AOA is supposed to be a democratic orginaization there fore each members value should be identical.

 

[hylacinerea]

It does not matter weather we are paying members or not. The fact is that we are members and the AOA is supposed to be a democratic orginaization there fore each members value should be identical.

In an idealistic world I agree with you. However, we also live in a democratic country and one look at the legislation that gets passed by congress tells you who's running the show. It's all about the green.

 

[TCOM-2006]

In an idealistic world I agree with you. However, we also live in a democratic country and one look at the legislation that gets passed by congress tells you who's running the show. It's all about the green.

it probably would be best to look in the AOA bylaws - under membership. if the bylaws makes no distinction between the "rights and privledges" between students/non-paying and physicians/paying - then there is *zero* justification (theoretial or practical) for treating students differently. we, as an organization, must follow our own policy - or else we risk loosing all legitimacy.

however - i would guess that it is true that student AOA membership counts in determining the delegation size of states (does anyone know this for sure?) - and we are represented by our state delegations to the AOA just like the docs are.

at least in the AMA - this is true, *however*, students (unlike docs and residents) are not represented by specialty societies (in the AMA - specialty societies are represented proportionally to their AMA membership). therefore - docs/residents are represented twice - and students only once. this was part of the justification for increasing the # of student delegates in the AMA.

i'm not sure what the specialty society structure is like in the AOA, so it's something i (or someone else...) will have to look up, and re-post on. if osteopathic specialty societies are represented in a proportional way - this can be used as leverage for change

 

[DeLaughterDO]

True, students make up a large percentage of the AOA, and yes there is power in numbers. However, I think we need to make the distinction between paying members and non-paying members i.e. students. It would be awful difficult to throw our weight around when we represent $0 in revenue for the AOA. Maybe this is why they don't respond favorably regarding issues such as the combined match. Hmm, we should demand to pay for our memberships now! 😀

Or, we could just say that we'll take our 12000+ memberships and NOT PAY when we graduate. If a third of the "membership" walked out and refused to become paying members of the AOA, I'm sure we'd get their attention.

Of course, this would never work, because in order to be board certified through the AOA, one must be a current member. A freaking racket, I tell ya.

Then again, if we could get every student to go into the ACGME match for one year, that would turn some heads as well...

 

[Ice-1]

more votes for students in the AOA (along as those students are willing to take a stand) = power to change the AOA.

I think that's what they are afraid of! Their short term strategy of ignoring student opinion may suffice to keep them in power for now, but their long term stategy with these actions threatens their very existence. Alienate students today = no AOA tomorrow.

 

[Portier]

I think that's what they are afraid of! Their short term strategy of ignoring student opinion may suffice to keep them in power for now, but their long term stategy with these actions threatens their very existence. Alienate students today = no AOA tomorrow.

This guy has a strong arguement...the best I've heard so far.

Keep pissing off the masses, and you'll find yourself high and dry!

 

[TCOM-2006]

here's a resolution related to this discussion that the AOA is considering right now. i thought it was interesting. thoughts?

#270 at: http://www.do-online.org/pdf/cal_hod05res261-280.pdf

SUBJECT: STUDENT DELEGATES TO THE AMERICAN OSTEOPATHIC
ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES

SUBMITTED BY: Missouri Association of Osteopathic Physicians & Surgeons

REFERRED TO: Committee on Professional Affairs

WHEREAS, the American Osteopathic Association considers student and resident involvement in their professional association paramount; and

WHEREAS, the American Osteopathic Association has repeatedly demonstrated commitment to students and residents; and

WHEREAS, the student body selects a student from each osteopathic college to represent student views in the American Osteopathic Association House of Delegates; and

WHEREAS, the American Osteopathic Association House of Delegates is the policy making body for the entire osteopathic profession; and

WHEREAS, many of the issues in the American Osteopathic Association House of Delegates address practice and payor issues; and

WHEREAS, many decisions in the House of Delegates require practice and professional experience; now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, that the American Osteopathic Association supports continued student government representatives and the Student Osteopathic Medical Association (SOMA) student delegation to serve in the American Osteopathic Association House of Delegates, representing their osteopathic college, or the SOMA delegation, as is done presently; and, be it further

RESOLVED, that the slots delegated for physicians be occupied by licensed osteopathic physicians and not students, except as official representatives of their student government association or the SOMA delegation.

 

[Ice-1]

here's a resolution related to this discussion that the AOA is considering right now. i thought it was interesting. thoughts?

#270 at: http://www.do-online.org/pdf/cal_hod05res261-280.pdf

SUBJECT: STUDENT DELEGATES TO THE AMERICAN OSTEOPATHIC
ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES

SUBMITTED BY: Missouri Association of Osteopathic Physicians & Surgeons

REFERRED TO: Committee on Professional Affairs

WHEREAS, the American Osteopathic Association considers student and resident involvement in their professional association paramount; and

WHEREAS, the American Osteopathic Association has repeatedly demonstrated commitment to students and residents; and

WHEREAS, the student body selects a student from each osteopathic college to represent student views in the American Osteopathic Association House of Delegates; and

WHEREAS, the American Osteopathic Association House of Delegates is the policy making body for the entire osteopathic profession; and

WHEREAS, many of the issues in the American Osteopathic Association House of Delegates address practice and payor issues; and

WHEREAS, many decisions in the House of Delegates require practice and professional experience; now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, that the American Osteopathic Association supports continued student government representatives and the Student Osteopathic Medical Association (SOMA) student delegation to serve in the American Osteopathic Association House of Delegates, representing their osteopathic college, or the SOMA delegation, as is done presently; and, be it further

RESOLVED, that the slots delegated for physicians be occupied by licensed osteopathic physicians and not students, except as official representatives of their student government association or the SOMA delegation.

I rest my case!

 

[Docgeorge]

OK I'm a little dumb what does the above resolution mean? It seems as if it saying that we are welcome to state our opinion, but be damned if we actualy get a vote?

 

[1viking]

I rest my case!

And aren't we glad? Sure, I think the AOA is being a little ridiculous, but why would a company give non-share holders the right to vote? In the eyes of the board members, we are the equivelant of summer interns for a company.

Though I think it would be nice to have some votes currently, I truly do not want students voting when I actually graduate. The students, generally, have no experience in running a practice and are incapable of making a wholly informed decision because of this reason.

Don't flame me; just try to think logically and prospectively for a moment. What I stated above is neither in support of nor opposition to a combined match. It is about business run in the best form possible--not the most equitable (who really cares about equality anyway when money is involved?)

 

[TCOM-2006]

And aren't we glad? Sure, I think the AOA is being a little ridiculous, but why would a company give non-share holders the right to vote? In the eyes of the board members, we are the equivelant of summer interns for a company.

Though I think it would be nice to have some votes currently, I truly do not want students voting when I actually graduate. The students, generally, have no experience in running a practice and are incapable of making a wholly informed decision because of this reason.

Don't flame me; just try to think logically and prospectively for a moment. What I stated above is neither in support of nor opposition to a combined match. It is about business run in the best form possible--not the most equitable (who really cares about equality anyway when money is involved?)

just to be clear - the AOA currently has positions for students to vote (1 per school - and they are seated with their state delegations) - this usually is the school president, but i don't think it necessarily has to be so. plus, i believe that SOMA already has one voting delegate slot.

what the resolutions would change - if passed - is that it would not allow individual state or specialty society delegations to decide to place a student in one of their delegate or alternate delegate positions instead of a physician. currently, state and specialty delegations *can* do this - although i don't think many actually do this in practice.

personally, i think it should be up to the members of each state and specialty society who fills their delegate seats, as long as they are AOA members (and students are AOA members).

currently - i don't think it's fair, in general, to say that the members of the BOT or HOD view students as "summer interns". we have votes that are given to us by the bylaws of the organization. we have a student on the BOT. we have a student caucus that allows us to discuss issues and form consensus as a 'voting block'. it is true that a good proportion of the issues don't impact us yet (i.e. reimbursement), but some do (student debt), and the policy formed by the AOA now will impact us in the future. i think we can address almost all of the issues very intelligently with just more pre-meeting preparation and research than the average physician delegate does.

the issue about whether or not we pay dues is irrelevant - as long as our definition of "membership" is the same definition as all other members, according to the AOA bylaws.

i'll comment more when i get some more time.

 

[TCOM-2006]

In an idealistic world I agree with you. However, we also live in a democratic country and one look at the legislation that gets passed by congress tells you who's running the show. It's all about the green.

i would also suggest that these two situations (ie - congress and the AOA) are not exactly comparable.

while it it true that "it's all about the green" in the US congress (ie - campaign contributions are important - and ultimatley do impact policy decision making by legislators) - delegates to the AOA (ie - the "congress" of our osteopathic profession) do not need any monitary funding to run for their positions. believe me - the AOA HOD is clearly less complex than congress - and this is one of the deminsions it does not have to deal with.

i think the better analogy is this...

--the house of representatives represent citizens in their district. the number of representatives is determined by the number of citizens - that's why states with more population get more reps. it does not matter what these citizens' income is - or what the tax bracket is in being counted as part of a district.

--saying that the docs pay more "taxes" (ie - more dues) than students is like saying that people who pay more taxes should be 'counted more' - in determining representation.

--one has the same definition of "citizenship" regardless of the amout of taxes you pay, so perhaps we could say that one has the same definition of "membership" regardless of the amount of dues you pay.

thoughts?

 

[Ice-1]

And aren't we glad? Sure, I think the AOA is being a little ridiculous, but why would a company give non-share holders the right to vote? In the eyes of the board members, we are the equivelant of summer interns for a company.

Though I think it would be nice to have some votes currently, I truly do not want students voting when I actually graduate. The students, generally, have no experience in running a practice and are incapable of making a wholly informed decision because of this reason.

Don't flame me; just try to think logically and prospectively for a moment. What I stated above is neither in support of nor opposition to a combined match. It is about business run in the best form possible--not the most equitable (who really cares about equality anyway when money is involved?)

You should make a great AOA officer some day, except that it probably won't exist by then if the current regime thinks as you do. Your statements reflect the same short sightedness. Big corporations aren't dependent on summer interns or even current employess for their future existance. On the other hand, AOA will not exist if new doctors son't join. An organization that small needs every doctor it can get and risks itself substantially by alienating the audience it must have. Speak for yourself regarding experience levels and don't presume that every student is as incapable as you seem to assume so automatically.

 

[1viking]

You should make a great AOA officer some day, except that it probably won't exist by then if the current regime thinks as you do. Your statements reflect the same short sightedness. Big corporations aren't dependent on summer interns or even current employess for their future existance. On the other hand, AOA will not exist if new doctors son't join. An organization that small needs every doctor it can get and risks itself substantially by alienating the audience it must have. Speak for yourself regarding experience levels and don't presume that every student is as incapable as you seem to assume so automatically.

Really? The AOA won't exist? Hmmm...That seems very probable. I think I would bet a great deal of money on it.

Your attitude will change once you are on the other side of the table, I GUARANTEE IT. In this world people only look out for themselves. I just hope that I am not of that type when I am presented the option.

 

[TCOM-2006]

i saw this on the AOA daily blog, and since it relates to this issue, i thought i would post. i would also recommend reading throught the blog - a good way to keep up with everything going on the the AOA. i think the Exec Director does a good job with communication.

also, i was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to my modified analogy, since some have posted that perhaps our representation should be based more on how much we pay in dues dollars:

here's the blog post...

"Membership numbers continue to be very positive for the AOA. Total membership as of 7/18/05 has reached 26,381, an increase of 151 over last year. This represents 74.5 percent of our budgeted target and 44.2 percent of our potential market share. Of those members, 885 are first year in practice; 909 second year in practice; 860 third year in practice; and 355 military/public health service/veterans administration. Total dues revenue is $10,608,951, an increase of $63,453 over last year."


http://www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/

 

[jhug]

i would also suggest that these two situations (ie - congress and the AOA) are not exactly comparable.

Congress= legitimate group able to accomplish something productive
AOA= joke of an organization that exists only to make it's own leaders feel important.

why doesn't the aoa listen to what 1/3 of it's members? Because we are foolish little children who shouldn't think for ourselves but accept everything they tell us as fact and in our best interests...it is, afterall, only because they accepted us that we will be doctors.

 

[Docgeorge]

I hate to dissapoint you "They" did'nt accepct us. Our School and their Admissions Comitee accepcted us. Additionally they bestowed the AOA membership on us...and as a member of an organization it is our perogitive to seek to change it.

 

[jhug]

docgeorge...i hope you picked up on my sarcasm in that last post...i could not agree with you more...WE picked osteopathy (whether it was the only choice or not is irrelevant)...it's just too bad we have a directionless organization at our head

 

[Docgeorge]

Sorry, it's been a long week filled with mindnumbing boredom in Los Banos, California. I think I lost several point off my IQ being here.

Any body takeing any bets on when our COMLEX scores will be back?