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What is considered to be the MOST competitive residency to get into? is it derm?
Most competitive residency
- Thread starter anconeus
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integrated plastics
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If you define most competitive as # of unmatched US Seniors then Plastics is #1. Derm and RadOnc are probably runners-up.
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I agree.
1. Integrated Plastics
2a. Derm
2b. Rad Onc
1. Integrated Plastics
2a. Derm
2b. Rad Onc
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Family Medicine.
It's brutal.
It's brutal.
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Who cares which residency program is most competitive?
Apply for the one that you love the most. The most competitive residency programs will change within a decade. Besides, matching at a quality program in any field is difficult.
Apply for the one that you love the most. The most competitive residency programs will change within a decade. Besides, matching at a quality program in any field is difficult.
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In my opinion it is
1. Rad/Onc Filled 100% with American grads (17/17) 12.5 ranks per position
2a Plastics Filled 95% with American grads (84/88) 13.8 ranks per position
2b Derm. Filled 93.3% with American grads (28/30) 11.7 ranks per position
All three had a 100% fill rate with no open positions for the scramble.
Any one of them is dang tough to get into and I wouldn't have qualified for any of them, I just think Rad/Onc is the toughest with regard to the big picture, number of positions, scores etc.
1. Rad/Onc Filled 100% with American grads (17/17) 12.5 ranks per position
2a Plastics Filled 95% with American grads (84/88) 13.8 ranks per position
2b Derm. Filled 93.3% with American grads (28/30) 11.7 ranks per position
All three had a 100% fill rate with no open positions for the scramble.
Any one of them is dang tough to get into and I wouldn't have qualified for any of them, I just think Rad/Onc is the toughest with regard to the big picture, number of positions, scores etc.
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When you're talking 'ranks per position,' is thatDr. V said:
- the sum of all of the people who ranked that program (it was on their Match ROL) divided by how many positions were available? (13 people rank program A and 5 rank program B, giving A 13 ranks/position & B 5 ranks/position).
- the average number of ranks an applicant went through before they Matched (e.g. I rank 20 ortho programs and I match to my 5th choice, so I had 5 ranks/position).
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anconeus said:
You might find this thread helpful: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=260988
I think Rad Onc, integrated plastics, and derm are far above any of the others re: competitiveness.
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RxnMan said:
I THINK that's number of people ranking divided by number of positions available, but I'm not 100% sure. I think it's that because Plastics went from 12.5 when only American grads were considered to 13.8 in the ALL category on the NRMP site.
Even if it does mean that, it's not a good single indicator because lots of that is self regulated. Very few people that were not qualified to go into a specialty will rank that specialty.
For example General Surgery had 12.8 ranks per position. If you tried to use that as a single criteria then Surgery would have been "more competitive" than both Rad/Onc and Derm. While there is no doubt Surgery was very competitive this year I do not believe it was THAT competitive.
My opinion was based on all these things put together as well as my understanding of scores needed to be competitive in each (which may be off for all I know).
In the end it is what it is, just one persons opinion, I just tried to give a little of my reasoning.
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i thought urology was pretty up there too.
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Panda Bear said:
Esp. at Duke, huh?
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I'm not sure which specialty is the most competitive, but you should find out. When you do, make sure to go into it. Then everyone will know how cool you are and will know that you were completely sincere when you told the admissions committee that you wanted to go to medical school "to help people". Then, enjoy the awe and envy of all your fellow students.
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Congratulations! "ForamenMagnumPI" wins the award for "Punniest Screen Name!" That's the best one I've seen in awhile.
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Specialty admissions are a range of difficulty, something like this I'd say.
(My point is that one specialty isn't more competitive than another. It's so program dependent and the overlap is so great that it's almost meaningless to rank them though a competitiveness trend is obvious.)
Very Competitive _____________________ Not very Competitive
*RadOnc*
*Plastics*
******Radiology********
***Derm******
*****ENT***********
****Urology*********
* * * * * * * *Medicine***********************
* * * * * * * *GenSurg*****************
* * * * * *Psych* * * ************************
* * * * * * *PMR* * * * * * * *
* * * Family* * * * *************************
* * * * * * *Anesth ******************
Well, the chart doesn't look exactly how I made it, but ah well. It's pretty random anyway.
(My point is that one specialty isn't more competitive than another. It's so program dependent and the overlap is so great that it's almost meaningless to rank them though a competitiveness trend is obvious.)
Very Competitive _____________________ Not very Competitive
*RadOnc*
*Plastics*
******Radiology********
***Derm******
*****ENT***********
****Urology*********
* * * * * * * *Medicine***********************
* * * * * * * *GenSurg*****************
* * * * * *Psych* * * ************************
* * * * * * *PMR* * * * * * * *
* * * Family* * * * *************************
* * * * * * *Anesth ******************
Well, the chart doesn't look exactly how I made it, but ah well. It's pretty random anyway.
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person2006 said:
Looks like my step score results.
This was my take on things:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3645169&postcount=45
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person2006 said:
Are you sure family medicine is only slightly less competative than urology and more competative than general surgery? If you really believe this, then all I can say is that you should step away from your bong.
Please, don't confuse the newbies. There are competative family medicine programs but if you want to do family medcine, you can do it. This is not the same for urology or general surgery for that matter.
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More like:
**Urology*****************
**Derm*******************
**ENT********************
*******EM***************
********Gas**************
**************IM*********
*********************************FM
**Urology*****************
**Derm*******************
**ENT********************
*******EM***************
********Gas**************
**************IM*********
*********************************FM
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Panda Bear said:
That's why family stretches all the way to non-competitive and is more dense *** on the lower end. The chart didn't post quite how it looked when I typed it, but at least it shows the overlap that is largely ignored in these discussions. It also shows that even the 'worst' radonc program for example is about as competitive as the 'best' medicine.
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You seem to be saying that all Derm, lets say Henry Ford for example -no offense, is more competitive than all Optho, say Mass Eye & Ear. That's nonsense. You can't lump all programs in a specialty together. What you're actually ranking I'd guess is the competitiveness of the least competitive program in each specialty.Reaganite said:
person2006 said:
Yes, something along those lines. My rankings would represent your chances of matching somewhere in these specialties. There are programs in IM, Peds, etc. that are harder to match into than some derm programs, but everyone would agree that matching into dermatology is harder than IM.
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Hi, I'm borrowing my friends account but he still can't post new threads yet, so I thought I'd append it to this one...
I just finished first year, and I have a question for all you. I'm interested in Derm, but I'm not a stellar student. I study almost every hour of every day and sleep about five hours a day including weekends. I study more than the second years are now and theyre studying for their boards!
Our school works on the honor/pass/fail system, and I'm just barely making honors in all my classes.
With only a month or two to prepare for boards, I don't think I could get a stellar score, however, given that EVERYONE studies nonstop for boards and I wont have the extra hours per day to put in more than other people. Without a stellar board score, I know derm's going to be tough.
So my question to you all is, is it wise for me to give up three hours of studying a day, forfeit honors, but use those hours for board study in order to improve my board score?
In other words, mostly honors and an average board score (215?)
OR
half honors plus maybe a couple second year and a better board score (230-ish?)
which would improve my case for getting into a derm residency (or any competitive residency for that matter?)
😕 😕 😕
I just finished first year, and I have a question for all you. I'm interested in Derm, but I'm not a stellar student. I study almost every hour of every day and sleep about five hours a day including weekends. I study more than the second years are now and theyre studying for their boards!
Our school works on the honor/pass/fail system, and I'm just barely making honors in all my classes.
With only a month or two to prepare for boards, I don't think I could get a stellar score, however, given that EVERYONE studies nonstop for boards and I wont have the extra hours per day to put in more than other people. Without a stellar board score, I know derm's going to be tough.
So my question to you all is, is it wise for me to give up three hours of studying a day, forfeit honors, but use those hours for board study in order to improve my board score?
In other words, mostly honors and an average board score (215?)
OR
half honors plus maybe a couple second year and a better board score (230-ish?)
which would improve my case for getting into a derm residency (or any competitive residency for that matter?)
😕 😕 😕
M3goingon4 said:
you technically should be studying for the same thing. what i mean is, if you're getting honors in first and second year, you should have learned the material pretty well to do well on the boards. I guess if I had to pick, I'd pick a better board score, but I still think you would be working towards the same thing.
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If you are studying hard for classes, I think that is board preparation anyway.
A good idea would be to find out how you can study more efficiently. Med school is hard but I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be studying that hard already. Like you said, studying for boards is just gonna kill you if your goal is to always outwork others!
A good idea would be to find out how you can study more efficiently. Med school is hard but I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be studying that hard already. Like you said, studying for boards is just gonna kill you if your goal is to always outwork others!
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bigfrank said:
Derm programs don't have A competitiveness and neither do ophtho programs, so that's not a meaningful statement. I think Yoda said it best- There is no derm is, there is only derm's are...
I'm sure I understand what you are saying and you understand what I'm saying, so we can stop talking in circles. I'm getting dizzy.
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Hmm here is my rating: (excluding fellowships)
1. Integrated plastics
2 a. Derm
2 b. Rad onc (tied)
...
4. Urology
5. ? Not sure.. they all start to blend at this point, so:
5a. ENT
5b. Orthopedics
5c. Neurologic Surg
5d. Radiology (tied)
....
9. ER med
10. Ophtho
11. Anesthesia
12. PM&R
13. Medicine (very location dependent)
14a. Family
14b. Psychiatry
14c. Pediatrics (tied)
1. Integrated plastics
2 a. Derm
2 b. Rad onc (tied)
...
4. Urology
5. ? Not sure.. they all start to blend at this point, so:
5a. ENT
5b. Orthopedics
5c. Neurologic Surg
5d. Radiology (tied)
....
9. ER med
10. Ophtho
11. Anesthesia
12. PM&R
13. Medicine (very location dependent)
14a. Family
14b. Psychiatry
14c. Pediatrics (tied)
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carrigallen said:
ophtho is not as low as put it
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Competitiveness (sp?) is cyclical for many specialties. They all go through phases where spots are readily available, as well as phases where every spot is filled in the match.
Anybody want to consult their crystal ball and venture to guess what the "competitiveness" rankings might look like in 2 years?
Will the cyclical gods frown upon plastics? Or will Peds somehow be the new rage?
[purely for entertainment purposes only]
If you post a comment you should try to figure out a way to attach that sound clip from Conan Obrien when he does the "In the year 2000" piece.
Will the cyclical gods frown upon plastics? Or will Peds somehow be the new rage?
[purely for entertainment purposes only]
If you post a comment you should try to figure out a way to attach that sound clip from Conan Obrien when he does the "In the year 2000" piece.
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carrigallen said:
The average Step 1 score for matched Ophtho applicants this year was 230.
I highly doubt that puts Ophtho in the same bag as EM, Anesthesia, PM&R, etc.
In terms of competitiveness, I see Ophtho and Radiology as being very similar. Correct me if I'm wrong, people...
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carrigallen said:
I'd probably put ortho after derm/rad onc. Derm and ortho are notoriously numbers-driven (Step, class rank, AOA) when it comes to matching. Urology and ENT are also very competitive and probably just a notch lower than ortho. I would put optho ahead of ER. You could probably add path to the end of the list.
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carrigallen said:
As "mysophobe" stated, competitiveness of a residency specialty is cyclical. For example, about a decade ago, Anesthesia and Rads were easy fields to attain and FMG's were able to get in. Now Anesthesia and Rads are competitive specialties to attain.
In the present time, I believe the Top 3 competitive residencies are Plastic Surgery, Derm, and Rad Onc respectively. All 3 fields have only a few open residency slots per year and many applicants apply for them. All 3 fields pay well $$$ and have relatively good lifestyles (decent working hours with few medical emergencies). It's a simple function of supply and demand.
DOCTORSAIB said:
Yes, I think you are correct. Optho is not in the same tier as derm, plastics, rad onc, ENT, and urology (not to say that optho doesn't attract top applicants; it's just that there are many more spots), but it is definitely more competitive than EM, and at least as competitive as radiology. I also cannot understand why people are ranking urology ahead of ENT. I was under the impression that the USMLE average for matched ENT applicants was higher than urology.
The trends at my school have tended to follow this pattern actually. We have had no problem matching people in optho (7/7 this year) and rads (8/8 this year), but nobody matched ENT, urology, derm, or plastics. In fact, I don't think we've matched someone in derm or plastics for a few years.
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These threads always manage to piss someone off, but they're kind of fun.
My 2 cents:
1. Plastics
2a. Derm
2b. Rad Onc
3. Ortho
4a. Urology
4b. ENT
4c. Ophtho
4d. Radiology
4e. Neurosurgery
5a. EM
5b. Anesthesiology
5c. General Surgery
6a. PM&R
6b. OBGYN
7a. Neurology
7b. Pathology
8a. IM
8b. Psych
8c. FM
8d. Pediatrics
My 2 cents:
1. Plastics
2a. Derm
2b. Rad Onc
3. Ortho
4a. Urology
4b. ENT
4c. Ophtho
4d. Radiology
4e. Neurosurgery
5a. EM
5b. Anesthesiology
5c. General Surgery
6a. PM&R
6b. OBGYN
7a. Neurology
7b. Pathology
8a. IM
8b. Psych
8c. FM
8d. Pediatrics
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Dunce said:
I love crystal balls! Lets see what does mine say:
In IM for some reason I see Pulm/Critical care becoming more and more competitive (like GI is now), and even though Heme/Onc is not very procedure oriented (less than GI/cardio at least) I think it will overtake a bunch of the fields. Cardio and Nephrology will remain as it is, and GI will go down a little, but not much.
I say EM will continue a competitive trend with more need and not enough supplying (residency and board certified).
Surgery (general) will continue to see a rise in competitiveness (but most will be to specialize, and all of the fellowships will increase in competitiveness) leaving the number of General surgeons less (and working more for same amount of money).
Radiology I just dont see continuing being as popular, even though they are getting a ton of procedures, I think individual specialties will try to muscle back some of them (like the cardiac folks).
Hmm, ok tired of predicting, anyone else taking guesses?
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M3goingon4 said:
This is where you are fooled. Only about 5 of the 2nd year students are truly studying for their boards. The others are golfing, boating, drinking, whatever, because they know they will pass, and that they are going to have no trouble getting a spot in what they want. It's the people who think they must have "Integrated plastics" or "Rad-Onc" to enjoy medicine that are studying from 3AM until Midnight each day. Who really goes into medicine to irradiate neoplastic cells?? Go have fun, work hard, and enjoy what you do. Time and time again the programs are filled with strong applicants who stand out. Not because they got into the 99th percentile on their boards, but because they showed that they were people who would fit into the program and would work hard, were honest, and were teachable.
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dobonedoc said:
Yes and no. If you want to enter Plastics, Derm, Rad Onc, and other extremely competitive specialties, then you will need excellent grades and board scores to make the first cut. During the ERAS residency application process, many programs initially screen grades and USMLE scores. If you do NOT make the initial cutoffs, then your application gets automatically thrown into the trash. They will not even review your application. There's just too many applications to sift through if they reviewed every application. Therefore, mediocre or low grades will not cut it.
Back when I was in med school, many students with the mentality of "P [pass] equals MD" did not get into competitive specialties. Trust me, "Pass" or "C" grades and a USMLE Step 1 score around 200 will not get you into Plastics, Derm, Rad Onc, Neurosurg, and other competitive specialties. By just "getting by and passing", you are limiting your options on specialty choice. At my school, the best students were the ones who worked their a$$es off to achieve excellent results. They put in long hours, were disciplined, and were consistent in their studies. These hardworking individuals got into the competitive specialties. Only 1-2 of them were geniuses with photographic memories who had the intellectual talent to spend minimal time on studying and still come out on top.
But I agree, set aside some time to have fun and unwind. Maybe once every 2 weeks, go out on the town, go fishing, go golfing, etc. After exams, party with your fellow students. This is important for your well-being and sanity.
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dobonedoc said:
ME!!!! 😀 👍
I mean I think we can agree that a lot of "derm"-ies have earned the title "Pimple Popper, MD" but I figured the rest of the medical community would cut RadOncs some slack.
Oh, I don't know . . . it's not like we TREAT CANCER in 95% of our patients or anything.
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Oh my God.
If Urology is as competitive as you guys are saying, then my chances as an IMG are pretty much zero.
I was always under the impression that as regards surgical subspeciality residencies:
1) Ophthalmology
2) Orthopedics
3) ENT
4) Urology
But if Urology is on top of that list, then ****.
plz someone say it's not.
If Urology is as competitive as you guys are saying, then my chances as an IMG are pretty much zero.
I was always under the impression that as regards surgical subspeciality residencies:
1) Ophthalmology
2) Orthopedics
3) ENT
4) Urology
But if Urology is on top of that list, then ****.
plz someone say it's not.
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Knight_MD said:
It has definitely gotten much more competitive in the last few years...I would probably put it at the top of that list...however, all four have applicants with similar numbers.
