Most Competitive vs Highest Ranked Programs

[Drax4]

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Trying to pass the time between now and match day...

I haven't seen a thread about this before so I decided to start one. We've all read the endless debates about the best or highest ranked programs, but I'm wondering what the list of the top 15 or 20 most competitive (i.e. hardest to get into) programs would look like. For example, most agree that Wash U and U Mich are top 10 programs, but many students rank other programs (UC, NW, cornell, stanford, UCLA, etc etc) above them due to location, lifestyle, etc. Another good example is Hopkins, which is generally considered to be the top program, yet it seems like many people rank UCSF, BWH, MGH, and maybe Columbia, Penn, and Duke higher due to location.

So, I'd love to hear what everyone thinks the list of the hardest programs to get into looks like.

 

[LindaLuv]

Ok I will play. Here is my list of top programs based on location and access the finer things in life. This isn't based on ANY data, just general perception....if you believe a good majority of the applicants like big cities...which isn't necessarily true.

1. UCSF
2. BWH
3. MGH
4. BIDMC
5. Columbia
6. Northwestern & UChicago
7. UW
8. UCLA
9. Cornell & Sinai
10. USCD & UC-Davis & Stanford
12. GWU & Georgetown
11. Emory & Duke
Last. Mayo Clinic

 

[abcabc1]

Ok I will play. Here is my list of top programs based on location and access the finer things in life. This isn't based on ANY data, just general perception....if you believe a good majority of the applicants like big cities...which isn't necessarily true.

1. UCSF
2. BWH
3. MGH
4. BIDMC
5. Columbia
6. Northwestern & UChicago
7. UW
8. UCLA
9. Cornell & Sinai
10. USCD & UC-Davis & Stanford
12. GWU & Georgetown
11. Emory & Duke
Last. Mayo Clinic

I don't think this is what the OP was asking for. The request was for the most competitive/selective programs, not the best/most desirable ones.

This is my guess (emphasis on guess, haha):

1. BWH
2. UCSF
3. MGH
4. JHU
5. Columbia
6. Pennsylvania (U of)
7. Geffen (UCLA)
8. Duke
9. Washington (U of)
10. Cornell
11. Pritzker (U of Chicago)
12. Feinberg (Northwestern)
13. Washington (Barnes, WUSTL)
14. Michigan (Ann Arbor)
15. UTSW
16. Emory

 

[jdh71]

I don't think this is what the OP was asking for. The request was for the most competitive/selective programs, not the best/most desirable ones.

This is my guess (emphasis on guess, haha):

1. BWH
2. UCSF
3. MGH
4. JHU
5. Columbia
6. Pennsylvania (U of)
7. Geffen (UCLA)
8. Duke
9. Washington (U of)
10. Cornell
11. Pritzker (U of Chicago)
12. Feinberg (Northwestern)
13. Washington (Barnes, WUSTL)
14. Michigan (Ann Arbor)
15. UTSW
16. Emory

This is a much better list . . . though . . . I'm not so sure I'd have Cornell, NWern, UTSW, or Emory on it

Edit: And I'd add Vandy

 

[ResidentMD]

I don't think this is what the OP was asking for. The request was for the most competitive/selective programs, not the best/most desirable ones.

This is my guess (emphasis on guess, haha):

1. BWH
2. UCSF
3. MGH
4. JHU
5. Columbia
6. Pennsylvania (U of)
7. Geffen (UCLA)
8. Duke
9. Washington (U of)
10. Cornell
11. Pritzker (U of Chicago)
12. Feinberg (Northwestern)
13. Washington (Barnes, WUSTL)
14. Michigan (Ann Arbor)
15. UTSW
16. Emory

I dont think Emory is at #16. Replace that with Vandy.

 

[HarryGary]

This is a fun game, but I think the consensus from everyone here won't be too helpful to individual applicants. The reason? People's perspectives will change each year as program's modify their selectivity based on how they did the year before, and perspectives will also be different as various med-schools have different relationships with IM programs.

For example, from my med school, people who went through the process before I did told me that interviews at Duke was reserved only for AOA and 250 boards people. But then when I applied, pretty much everyone in my class got interviews there. Matching there was a lot harder, as a lot of people who had it number 1 missed out, but in general it seemed like Duke interviewed a lot more people from my school than years before.

Michigan, for all the talk it gets on this board, interviewed everyone too, and unlike Duke, the only people who matched there were those who had it like 4th on their list. Not knocking the program by any means, as a lot of people just didn't like Ann Arbor, but it didn't seem too selective, at all.

The NYC programs were a whole different beast. People got random interviews, like Sinai but not Cornell, Cornell but not NYU, and only AOA or PHDs got Columbia. Matching seemed much harder too.

Also, BID, which doesn't get too much respect on this board, was also really tough to both interview and match to. AOA people who ranked it number 1 ended up at Duke.

So in general, seems like programs in major cities are much tougher to match to than highly regarded programs in less desirable locations -- which I guess is exactly why OP started this thread.

 

[styleandsugar]

I don't think this is what the OP was asking for. The request was for the most competitive/selective programs, not the best/most desirable ones.

This is my guess (emphasis on guess, haha):

1. BWH
2. UCSF
3. MGH
4. JHU
5. Columbia
6. Pennsylvania (U of)
7. Geffen (UCLA)
8. Duke
9. Washington (U of)
10. Cornell
11. Pritzker (U of Chicago)
12. Feinberg (Northwestern)
13. Washington (Barnes, WUSTL)
14. Michigan (Ann Arbor)
15. UTSW
16. Emory

Agree with the thoughts on this.

A lot of people in my class got interviews at Michigan. I think Ann Arbor really hurts its cause given that it's such a great program. Duke seemed to hand out just as many invites in my class, but historically is more selective when it comes to match day (compared to Michigan).

I think Northwestern is more competitive (at least for interview) than most of us would think. I think they interview 400 people out of over 4000 apps. I think this is a product of their amazing location. My guess is that on match day, a lot of individuals that land interviews there end up going to programs perceived as "better" on the coasts or in the midwest.... thus it may not be as selective in terms of the actual match. I got rejected from there so who knows though! I contrast, it seemed as though way more people go interviews from U of Chicago from my school than northwestern. I would guess that U of C is harder to match at though (despite handing out more interviews) as they only have 20ish spots.

My list would go

1, 2) UCSF=BWH, UCSF: interviews about 250, amazing location, amazing institute, BWH: another amazing, friendly place. great location. Interviewed 30 less this year than in years past ... which was usually 225 according to Frieda. I think alot of people that interview here rank it #1.
3. MGH (interviews a ton of people, still very selective on interview day)
4. JHU (seemed like alot of individuals that didn't get interviews at BWH, UCSF in my class did at JHU)
5. U Penn
6. Columbia
7. UCLA (again, I think is higher up in terms of competitiveness because a lot of people want to live in LA)
8. Duke
9. Northwestern (don't think this is in the same tier as a lot of these programs, but still solid program with a great location that makes it more competitive)
10. Cornell
11. Stanford (1500 apps a year, 250 interviews)
12. U of C
13. U of Wash
14. Washington U in St Louis
15. Michigan (Ann Arbor)

 

[chitown82]

I don't think this is what the OP was asking for. The request was for the most competitive/selective programs, not the best/most desirable ones.

This is my guess (emphasis on guess, haha):

1. BWH
2. UCSF
3. MGH
4. JHU
5. Columbia
6. Pennsylvania (U of)
7. Geffen (UCLA)
8. Duke
9. Washington (U of)
10. Cornell
11. Pritzker (U of Chicago)
12. Feinberg (Northwestern)
13. Washington (Barnes, WUSTL)
14. Michigan (Ann Arbor)
15. UTSW
16. Emory

This list is pretty good. Don't think UCLA is "Top 10" however and I might trade U of C with Cornell.

 

[chitown82]

Agree with the thoughts on this.


I think Northwestern is more competitive (at least for interview) than most of us would think. I think they interview 400 people out of over 4000 apps. I think this is a product of their amazing location. My guess is that on match day, a lot of individuals that land interviews there end up going to programs perceived as "better" on the coasts or in the midwest.... thus it may not be as selective in terms of the actual match. I got rejected from there so who knows though! I contrast, it seemed as though way more people go interviews from U of Chicago from my school than northwestern. I would guess that U of C is harder to match at though (despite handing out more interviews) as they only have 20ish spots.

It's interesting how programs hand out interviews. From what I've heard/know a program is more likely to interview people from a particular school if they have a good history with residents that came from that school.

NW interviewed about 350 last year and UChicago interviewed about 400. They both draw around the same number of applicants. UChicago's class is around 30 and NW's is close to 40. Both programs are excellent but tend to focus their resident classes on different qualities. UChicago is more focused on research (as evident during their interview day where it's a constant theme) and seeks residents who will be future leaders in academic medicine (NW's PD is a UChicago IM residency graduate and about four or five local hospitals traditionally recruit their Chief Residents from UChicago's senior class). NW (which also has a robust research program) tends to attract residents that have interests in public health, global health, private practice, and research/academic medicine.

 

[abcabc1]

My list would go

1, 2) UCSF=BWH, UCSF: interviews about 250, amazing location, amazing institute, BWH: another amazing, friendly place. great location. Interviewed 30 less this year than in years past ... which was usually 225 according to Frieda. I think alot of people that interview here rank it #1.
3. MGH (interviews a ton of people, still very selective on interview day)
4. JHU (seemed like alot of individuals that didn't get interviews at BWH, UCSF in my class did at JHU)
5. U Penn
6. Columbia
7. UCLA (again, I think is higher up in terms of competitiveness because a lot of people want to live in LA)
8. Duke
9. Northwestern (don't think this is in the same tier as a lot of these programs, but still solid program with a great location that makes it more competitive)
10. Cornell
11. Stanford (1500 apps a year, 250 interviews)
12. U of C
13. U of Wash
14. Washington U in St Louis
15. Michigan (Ann Arbor)

Would you really say the difference in competitiveness/selectivity between UCSF and BWH and JHU is significant or, at the very least, more-than-trivial? That's a surprise; my guess was that JHU was a bit easier b/c of location, but didn't think it would be noticeably less selective than UCSF, BWH and MGH.

 

[atsai3]

Would you really say the difference in competitiveness/selectivity between UCSF and BWH and JHU is significant or, at the very least, more-than-trivial? That's a surprise; my guess was that JHU was a bit easier b/c of location, but didn't think it would be noticeably less selective than UCSF, BWH and MGH.

According to my friends who are at Hopkins or who have gone to Hopkins, graduating medical students generally fall into one of two categories:

1. OMG Bawlmore is the worst city in the world, I can't wait until I graduate so I can get out of here.
2. Baltimore sucks, but nothing tastes as sweet as the Osler Marine Kool-Aid.

However, even students who fall into the first category have the common experience of visiting other programs only to realize OMG the Hopkins system of teaching is so much better than these other places, I wish Bawlmore weren't Bawlmore. The students who are good enough to match at comparable-quality institutions (ie., lower perceived quality compared to Hopkins, like MGH or BWH, but preferable because of their location) thank their lucky stars.

But then there are the students who are not good enough to match at comparable-quality institutions. They are, however, good enough to match at Hopkins (because Hopkins, like most institutions, gives its own students a few bonus points when it comes to consideration for the Match). And that is also a curse: if they want to leave Baltimore they have to take a bigger hit on program quality (eg., think Northwestern or Michigan, not Columbia or Penn) than they are willing to endure. And so they end up at Hopkins.

Compared to UCSF, BWH, MGH, Hopkins does have to go down farther on its rank list to fill its class. But from their perspective, they train Osler Marines: as long as you meet a minimum threshold of quality, then they can mold you into a real doctor.

-AT.

 

[DrVanNostran]

Bumping because I enjoy reading this discussion🙂

 

[Deferoxamine]

Bumping because I enjoy reading this discussion🙂

Okay, I'll bite.

"Competitiveness" and "ranking" are relative terms. I'm sure some nerds could plug a few numbers into a ridiculous mathematical formula to prove that certain programs are more competitive to get into than others, but other than X # of applicants, Y number of interviews offered, and Z number of spots available we have nothing else to base these lists on than word of mouth, perceived strength of medical students who match there (often based superficially on which medical school they are from, which is all kinds of ridiculous, IMHO) and "strength" of fellowship Match Lists. I provided some thoughts on the "word of mouth" out there this season on the interview trail in Dr.Van's sister thread, so you can peek there if you are curious.

But once again, here's the take home message: Perceived prestige and ranking only matter up to a point, and a good portion your choice of where to go for residency should be about gut feeling. Personally, I thought this was a load of garbage before I applied this past year, until I saw these programs firsthand on interviews, and I finally understood what the elders meant. I will refrain from specifics on "types" of programs until after I match (superstitious...?). The lists you see in the posts above in NO WAY reflect the type of experience you will or will not have there if you go there for residency. After a certain point, the subjective rankings DO NOT MATTER. Few, if any, MS3's reading this thread right now will have this perspective.

If you're an MS3 in a good spot academically and you know you're going into IM, your priority right now is to Honor all your remaining third-year rotations. Then apply VERY broadly among the "top 30" programs, see which ones want to interview you, and go from there.

 

[nervousivy]

Okay, I'll bite.

"Competitiveness" and "ranking" are relative terms. I'm sure some nerds could plug a few numbers into a ridiculous mathematical formula to prove that certain programs are more competitive to get into than others, but other than X # of applicants, Y number of interviews offered, and Z number of spots available we have nothing else to base these lists on than word of mouth, perceived strength of medical students who match there (often based superficially on which medical school they are from, which is all kinds of ridiculous, IMHO) and "strength" of fellowship Match Lists. I provided some thoughts on the "word of mouth" out there this season on the interview trail in Dr.Van's sister thread, so you can peek there if you are curious.

But once again, here's the take home message: Perceived prestige and ranking only matter up to a point, and a good portion your choice of where to go for residency should be about gut feeling. Personally, I thought this was a load of garbage before I applied this past year, until I saw these programs firsthand on interviews, and I finally understood what the elders meant. I will refrain from specifics on "types" of programs until after I match (superstitious...?). The lists you see in the posts above in NO WAY reflect the type of experience you will or will not have there if you go there for residency. After a certain point, the subjective rankings DO NOT MATTER. Few, if any, MS3's reading this thread right now will have this perspective.

If you're an MS3 in a good spot academically and you know you're going into IM, your priority right now is to Honor all your remaining third-year rotations. Then apply VERY broadly among the "top 30" programs, see which ones want to interview you, and go from there.

I agree. I feel like by the time you graduate medical school, you should be more concerned with how you'll like living in a certain location/whether you can have a lifestyle that's doable for you/whether you like the people you work with and/or the teaching style of the program, then if it's #1, 2, or 3 on the "Most Competitive/Best IM Program" list. Go to a program that feels right to you and will help you meet your career goals, but if you hate Boston or you're a Southern Belle at heart, why punish yourself by going to the Brigham or UCSF just b/c it's number 1.

 

[dr_wannabe]

I didn't see Mayo, except for the OP and then it just sort of dropped out. I had always assumed that it was a great place to learn medicine. Is it just not considered competitive, or desirable since it's in Minnesota? Thanks.

 

[JoyfulMD]

I didn't see Mayo, except for the OP and then it just sort of dropped out. I had always assumed that it was a great place to learn medicine. Is it just not considered competitive, or desirable since it's in Minnesota? Thanks.

Mayo is a great institution, and it's well run. There's no getting away from that. It's a great 'reference center' and, as such, has strong sub-specialties. For general medicine training, though, it's simply not that competitive a program to match into compared to many of the usual suspects posted here.

 

[jdh71]

Mayo is a great institution, and it's well run. There's no getting away from that. It's a great 'reference center' and, as such, has strong sub-specialties. For general medicine training, though, it's simply not that competitive a program to match into compared to many of the usual suspects posted here.

Just so everyone is clear it's relatively not as competative. You can't have a weak application and expect an invite or match there.

The last few batches of applicants have put a little more emphasis on location. Everyone I know there loves it, and they match into awesome fellowships.

 

[JoyfulMD]

Just so everyone is clear it's relatively not as competative. You can't have a weak application and expect an invite or match there.

The last few batches of applicants have put a little more emphasis on location. Everyone I know there loves it, and they match into awesome fellowships.

😀 I think most people are more intelligent and insightful than you imply from this post which blatantly over-states something I neither said nor implied. The question did not ask whether people were happy there, it asked if Mayo was considered a competitive institution, and this is an open-ended question. Competitive compared to an applicant to a mid-tier state school--of course. Compared to UCSF, Harvard's affiliates, Hopkins, Stanford, Columbia, Penn etc.--nowhere close.

 

[jdh71]

😀 I think most people are more intelligent and insightful than you imply from this post which blatantly over-states something I neither said nor implied. The question did not ask whether people were happy there, it asked if Mayo was considered a competitive institution, and this is an open-ended question. Competitive compared to an applicant to a mid-tier state school--of course. Compared to UCSF, Harvard's affiliates, Hopkins, Stanford, Columbia, Penn etc.--nowhere close.

🙂 I think most people are intelligent and insightful enough to know that I wasn't plying you said anything. So I wonder what your problem is?

Mayo's on the level of a Stanford or BID - it's more than close . . . it's . . . right . . . THERE

(over reactive clowns . . . can't live with 'em . . . can't kill 'em)

 

[JoyfulMD]

🙂 I think most people are intelligent and insightful enough to know that I wasn't plying you said anything. So I wonder what your problem is?

Mayo's on the level of a Stanford or BID - it's more than close . . . it's . . . right . . . THERE

(over reactive clowns . . . can't live with 'em . . . can't kill 'em)

Ah, I see. Your nose is out of joint because yet another person feels you're not an expert in everything. You merely have opinions--strong ones; nothing more. You are neither judge nor jury. Carry on...

 

[jdh71]

Ah, I see. Your nose is out of joint because yet another person feels you're not an expert in everything. You merely have opinions--strong ones; nothing more. You are neither judge nor jury. Carry on...

No. My nose is fine. Your knees jerked, you went full ******, and I called you on it clown. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. You seem like you've got a complex or chip on your shoulder or something . . . there's always a few . . .

Pro Tip: If you get mad and decide to flame someone on the forum, make sure you know what what's actually being said.

I quoted you, but my comments were rhetorical in nature and not directed at you. Which we could have cleared up very easily through a reasonable dialogue, but you chose what . . . so you find yourself in this exchange through your own over-reaction, and that's on YOU boss, not me.

I've not claimed expert, judge, nor jury status anywhere. And if a person doesn't have strong opinions what ****ing good are they as opinions anyway? You seem to be implying that's a bad thing. If you're not going to have an opinion why ****ing post in the first place? Waste your time and our time?

Carry on? Yeah. Don'd mind if I do. Thanks for your permission!! (lawlz)