Most difficult interview topic: stem cell research

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mercaptovizadeh said:
This argument is not about what is useful. It is about what is moral. Therefore, yes, if such a discovery were made, I would not support its implementation in the US or anywhere.

Obviously I wouldn't expect you to change your mind. But if there is even one significant disease for which ESC's help, do you think it will become a politically tenable stance for ANY politician to be against them? That is my point. If ESC cures are developed in Korea and a relative of mine gets sick and some politician is going to cause them to suffer because of their religious beliefs, I'm going to do whatever it takes to bring them down. And so will anybody else in that situation. It's really not that much of an ethical debate because the research will continue with or without us and when it produces a benefit it will be adopted here.
 
tacrum43 said:
Well that is your opinion. My opinion is that a loving God would not kill off 2/3 of the people He creates.
Don't you know, God eventually kills everyone he creates.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
This argument is not about what is useful. It is about what is moral. Therefore, yes, if such a discovery were made, I would not support its implementation in the US or anywhere.

Regarding usefulness, is there any evidence of embryonic stem cells effecting cures in animals, particularly of conditions that adult or umbilical stem cells couldn't?

Lastly, I am very disturbed by the fact that the EU, US, South Korea, and others are making an enormous deal about a morally and practically dubious technique, rather than focusing on diseases that are killing tens of millions of people all over the (mostly developing) world. Where is the hepatitis C vaccine? The cures for hep B and C? AIDS cure? Immunotherapeutics for autoimmune diseases?

Quite simply, embryonic stem cells are not going to produce what they promise.
you betray your own argument here. you begin by saying that the debate is not about whether such research is useful (and i agree), but then indulge that side by spending the rest of your post arguing that stem-cell research is not useful. i think, if anything, stem-cell research shows great promise in what it may yield down the line. but that doesn't change my basic position that the ethical cost is too great to be justified.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
This argument is not about what is useful. It is about what is moral. Therefore, yes, if such a discovery were made, I would not support its implementation in the US or anywhere.

This is a bit too biased, I think. There are opposing moral considerations, (1) welfare and life of current living humans, and (2) welfare and life of embryos.

In at least some cases, we value (1) over (2), e.g. even the strongly conservative right make allowances for abortion in the case of danger to the mother's life.

Take this argument a step further, then. If by usage of an embryo (by development of an embryonic stem cell line), you can cure Alzheimer's patients, return motor function to paralyzed individuals, etc., fundamentally bettering and saving the lives of hundreds of individuals, is it worthwhile?

mercaptovizadeh said:
Lastly, I am very disturbed by the fact that the EU, US, South Korea, and others are making an enormous deal about a morally and practically dubious technique, rather than focusing on diseases that are killing tens of millions of people all over the (mostly developing) world. Where is the hepatitis C vaccine? The cures for hep B and C? AIDS cure? Immunotherapeutics for autoimmune diseases?

I don't know enough to make the judgment that embryonic stem cell research is "practically dubious", but otherwise strongly agreed. 👍

Oh -- one other comment. Those who oppose usage of "leftover" embryos from IVF are not necessarily hypocritical -- there are groups campaigning (and in some cases, succeeding) for implantation and birth of "leftover" embryos, and there are children who are born that way.

a_t
 
Babooshka said:
Don't you know, God eventually kills everyone he creates.

Well then I guess there's no point to life, and we should all just kill ourselves right now. 🙄
 
What's with all that soul entering the cell talk? I don't remember reading about that any where.

And who said God is loving? haha..
 
almost_there said:
This is a bit too biased, I think. There are opposing moral considerations, (1) welfare and life of current living humans, and (2) welfare and life of embryos.

In at least some cases, we value (1) over (2), e.g. even the strongly conservative right make allowances for abortion in the case of danger to the mother's life.

Take this argument a step further, then. If by usage of an embryo (by development of an embryonic stem cell line), you can cure Alzheimer's patients, return motor function to paralyzed individuals, etc., fundamentally bettering and saving the lives of hundreds of individuals, is it worthwhile?

To counter this stereotype, I can say that I do not value the mother's life over the baby's. I value them equally and do not support deliberately killing the baby to (allegedly) save the mother's life. In many case there are intensive therapies that can be used to help the mother to come to carry the baby to term.
 
ahd929 said:
you betray your own argument here. you begin by saying that the debate is not about whether such research is useful (and i agree), but then indulge that side by spending the rest of your post arguing that stem-cell research is not useful. i think, if anything, stem-cell research shows great promise in what it may yield down the line. but that doesn't change my basic position that the ethical cost is too great to be justified.

Not at all. The only arguments that I recognize when it comes to these issues are moral ones. The first filter that a decision must pass through is the moral filter. Only then do I check to see if it is useful or not.

However, since I recognize that the majority of the people I am arguing with do not uphold the same morals as I do, the only way I can hope to "convince" them (although that's doubtful, too), is by criticizing the alleged utility of the proposed research. I was just making the observation that human embryonic stem cell research, as to its utility, has not been justified by animal experiments and models suggesting cures to important diseases.

I guess it's a matter of rhetoric rather than conviction. For me, the usefulness of embryonic stem cell research, as it stands, now is entirely irrelevant, as I consider it murder.
 
why should i give a damn about this at all?? if my research interests were in that area of biology (cloning), i would be interested in the scientific side of the matter, i.e. advantages of stem cells vs adult cells,etc, but not with politics/monetary issues. since my research interests are completely different i only know about the bio that i need for mcat.

if they will rate us on our political opinions, are they going to base their admissions decisions on whether you're a republican or a democrat(of which i am neither, as i dont care)?
 
i wonder if they ask me on some interview what i think of abortions and i say i dont feel sorry for dead babies at all, if they'll think i'm some amoral/radical? in fact it is a very rational opinion, not a political one. and i am sure i'm a nice guy anyway.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Not at all. The only arguments that I recognize when it comes to these issues are moral ones. The first filter that a decision must pass through is the moral filter. Only then do I check to see if it is useful or not.

ah yeah... and you are the one who holds the one and only moral truth 🙄

You just go ahead an consider it murder, that is completely irrelevant. Embryonic stem cell research is - and will be - conducted
 
To address a common misperception.

This is what I believe and I try to base it strongly on the Bible:

The fall was human's choice to not trust God. Eating the fruit that someone told them would give them God's understanding. Why didn't they ask God for an opinion before believing someone who just slithered along? It was not the will of God for us to suffer. It was the will for us to have a choice, but that would lead to suffering. With love, He gave us this choice even though it would cause us suffering. Without choice, there is no point in creating us and letting us experience any good in this world. (How was this fixed with choice still involved? God performed the ultimate act of love. PM me if you want to know more. (no flames please))

Death, destruction, inviability, etc. These are in our reality which was meant to be perfect and painless (pure, perfect, harmony) as God had intended. But with the ultimate choice given to humans, it was wrecked.

Medicine, science, creativity, studying of His Word, our relationships etc. are the search for answers through tools (hearts, mind, soul) given to us to help ourselves. i believe this IS part of His glory and Will to the world. But we should be respectful and responsible while we use these tools (morality and ethics). One of Jesus' most famous disciples (Luke) was a physician himself. One could argue that Jesus himself was the ultimate physician. He cared for the physical as well as the "art of healing" that adcoms care so much about.

This just addresses a certain post earlier not the issue of stem cell research.
 
tacrum43 said:
Well then I guess there's no point to life, and we should all just kill ourselves right now. 🙄
Yes, when shown to hold a false belief, insert sarcastic line with smiley face. There's nothin' wrong with being wrong.
 
Gavanshir said:
What's with all that soul entering the cell talk? I don't remember reading about that any where.

And who said God is loving? haha..
My biology book never told me to value human life either.
 
hardy said:
ah yeah... and you are the one who holds the one and only moral truth 🙄

You just go ahead an consider it murder, that is completely irrelevant. Embryonic stem cell research is - and will be - conducted
Golf clap for Hardy, who thinks the act of murder irrelevant! Reconsider your field of occupation. For the second time, No one's arguing whether or not this research will happen, we're considering its moral tenets.
 
Babooshka said:
Golf clap for Hardy, who thinks the act of murder irrelevant! Reconsider your field of occupation. For the second time, No one's arguing whether or not this research will happen, we're considering its moral tenets.

As long as you (and some other fanatics) think you are the only one who knows what is moral and what is not I don't really care whether you consider it murder.
My point is that you can argue all you want. The majority has decided that it is moral and agrees that your arguments are void.
If you base your arguments on a book with fairy tales, which you believe to be true, then there obviously is nothing anybody can say about it. It's like a little child who always resorts to a fairy tale when you want to tell the child something. What are you going to do? You can only ignore it since it won't listen.
 
Babooshka said:
Yes, when shown to hold a false belief, insert sarcastic line with smiley face. There's nothin' wrong with being wrong.

Okay, now I'm gonna have to get grade-school on your a$$:

Ooooooooooooohhhhh, good comeback!


Oh yes, and you have hardly "shown" anything, except that you happen to think that your opinion is automatically more valid than mine. Somehow. I'll spare you the roll eyes smiley face now, but you should know that I'm thinking it.
 
I have an observation that seems to go largely unnoticed by those who use moral (which is really just a euphamism for religious) arguments to oppose scientific procedures like stem-cell research. It is a simple fact of medicine that in any trial of prescription medicines, there is a statistical chance that one or more of the human subjects could die. Often times their deaths can be directly attributed to whichever drug that is being tested. I think it would be fair to say that in these cases, were a test subject dies due to an adverse reaction with the tested medicine, that they were killed by (however indirectly) the medicine. While an effect of any successful trial is the well-being of the test subjects, it's purpose is to develop a medicine that can benefit the population as a whole. Therefore when we say that a subject was killed by the medicine, we can infer that they were "sacrificed" for the greater good.

Check your cabinets. Then look up the studies done during the testing phase of that drug. Was the mortality rate of the test subjects greater than 0.0000000000? Yes. Congradulations, you killed someone in order to increase your own chance of remaining healthy. You can't really argue your way around it. If anyone, anywhere died testing a drug that you have or currently take, then your own health has been subsidized by their death. It doesn't matter how long the chain is, eventually there is a link between you, the medicine, and the dead subject. In fact if you have ever been vaccinated for anything, phew. You're standing on a mountain of dead bodies. How does God feel about that?

Let's step away from medicine, and acts of "murder" by direct commission. Look at your everyday life. Do you drive a car? Guess what, you just contirbuted to someone's lung cancer. Do you throw trash away? Guess what, you just poisoned some fish who in turn just poisoned some infant. Do you wash your hands after you go to the bathroom? Everytime? Guess what, you just gave some old woman sepsis. Have you ever not given a homeless person change? Guess what, they were diabetic, and went into hypoglyemic shock. They wandered into the street, causing a 5 car pile up. 7 people died.

Sounds pretty rediculous, but if we are claiming using stemcells is immoral because they end a human life, aren't all the above situations just as immoral? Or is it different because you can't pass a law that says people need to wash their hands or give money to homeless people? Does distance absolve you? Is there no passage in the Bible that decries contributing to the systemic factors of disease? God wasn't smart enough to make that a commandment? Where do we draw the line? Where does responsibility begin? Where does it end? When does the greater good become more important than moral convictions?

I don't have the answers, but the moral posturing is at best irritating, and at worst hypocritical. Face it, whether it's babies or geezers or blastocysts, we have all at one time or another, directly or indirectly contributed to the death of another human being. The high horses and soapboxes of the moral majority do not provide absolution. Everyone's hands are dirty. Call me parsimonious, call me utilitarian, but I would rather save thousands of lives and prevent thousands of others from becoming diseased in the first place than save jumbles of cells that wind up in the landfill anyway. I'll sleep just fine at night, and I suspect that most of this country would as well.
 
little_late_MD said:
I have an observation that seems to go largely unnoticed by those who use moral (which is really just a euphamism for religious) arguments to oppose scientific procedures like stem-cell research.

No it isn't. I'm sure there are ethicists who are not religious. There are definitely experiments that were conducted in decades past that would never fly now, and that is not because of any religious argument. For example, that one psychology study at Stanford where they had students pretend to be prisoners and guards and everything went way too far.
 
tacrum43 said:
No it isn't. I'm sure there are ethicists who are not religious. There are definitely experiments that were conducted in decades past that would never fly now, and that is not because of any religious argument. For example, that one psychology study at Stanford where they had students pretend to be prisoners and guards and everything went way too far.

Ethical does not equal moral. Morality ascribes a certain "goodness" and "badness" to an action. This classification is then universally applied. Ethics are generally situationally and environmentally determined. It is a slight difference, but one that is very important. These words can be synonymous, but they do not mean the same thing. In today's American culture the word "morality" has a very strong religious connotation.
 
little_late_MD said:
I have an observation that seems to go largely unnoticed by those who use moral (which is really just a euphamism for religious) arguments to oppose scientific procedures like stem-cell research. It is a simple fact of medicine that in any trial of prescription medicines, there is a statistical chance that one or more of the human subjects could die. Often times their deaths can be directly attributed to whichever drug that is being tested. I think it would be fair to say that in these cases, were a test subject dies due to an adverse reaction with the tested medicine, that they were killed by (however indirectly) the medicine. While an effect of any successful trial is the well-being of the test subjects, it's purpose is to develop a medicine that can benefit the population as a whole. Therefore when we say that a subject was killed by the medicine, we can infer that they were "sacrificed" for the greater good.

Check your cabinets. Then look up the studies done during the testing phase of that drug. Was the mortality rate of the test subjects greater than 0.0000000000? Yes. Congradulations, you killed someone in order to increase your own chance of remaining healthy. You can't really argue your way around it. If anyone, anywhere died testing a drug that you have or currently take, then your own health has been subsidized by their death. It doesn't matter how long the chain is, eventually there is a link between you, the medicine, and the dead subject. In fact if you have ever been vaccinated for anything, phew. You're standing on a mountain of dead bodies. How does God feel about that?

Let's step away from medicine, and acts of "murder" by direct commission. Look at your everyday life. Do you drive a car? Guess what, you just contirbuted to someone's lung cancer. Do you throw trash away? Guess what, you just poisoned some fish who in turn just poisoned some infant. Do you wash your hands after you go to the bathroom? Everytime? Guess what, you just gave some old woman sepsis. Have you ever not given a homeless person change? Guess what, they were diabetic, and went into hypoglyemic shock. They wandered into the street, causing a 5 car pile up. 7 people died.

Sounds pretty rediculous, but if we are claiming using stemcells is immoral because they end a human life, aren't all the above situations just as immoral? Or is it different because you can't pass a law that says people need to wash their hands or give money to homeless people? Does distance absolve you? Is there no passage in the Bible that decries contributing to the systemic factors of disease? God wasn't smart enough to make that a commandment? Where do we draw the line? Where does responsibility begin? Where does it end? When does the greater good become more important than moral convictions?

I don't have the answers, but the moral posturing is at best irritating, and at worst hypocritical. Face it, whether it's babies or geezers or blastocysts, we have all at one time or another, directly or indirectly contributed to the death of another human being. The high horses and soapboxes of the moral majority do not provide absolution. Everyone's hands are dirty. Call me parsimonious, call me utilitarian, but I would rather save thousands of lives and prevent thousands of others from becoming diseased in the first place than save jumbles of cells that wind up in the landfill anyway. I'll sleep just fine at night, and I suspect that most of this country would as well.

I think that there is a difference between indirectly contributing to a possible death and knowingly causing a certain death. Stem cell research is a question of whether or not the ends justify the means. No real benefits have arisen from current stem cell research and it seems friviolous to continue to destroy embryos in a quest for something that has proven to be fruitless.
 
FutureMD9 said:
I think that there is a difference between indirectly contributing to a possible death and knowingly causing a certain death. Stem cell research is a question of whether or not the ends justify the means. No real benefits have arisen from current stem cell research and it seems friviolous to continue to destroy embryos in a quest for something that has proven to be fruitless.

That's right. I mean, we've been at this stem cell thing for what, five years now? If we haven't cured at least half of all know diseases by now then things obviously just aren't going to pan out. Let's return all those embryos to their freezers, put on some happy faces, and try to forget about the whole thing.
 
P.S. And if they engineer a stem cell-based cure for diabetes within the next five years, I'll be expecting a fruit basket from you.
 
FutureMD9 said:
No real benefits have arisen from current stem cell research and it seems friviolous to continue to destroy embryos in a quest for something that has proven to be fruitless.

Why do people keep saying this? Do you know how long it takes to even get one drug to market? Like 10 years. This research hasn't even begun yet, because of the extremely limited funding because of President Bush. This has hardly been proven to be fruitless.

The limited funding only went to a few previously existing cell lines that were contaminated with viruses or had been immortalized as cancerous cells anyway, which doesn't exactly make them ideal for coming up with new cures. Now that there is funding (at least in California), I'm sure there will be much more progress.

Oh, and to Suppuration, the fruitless/fruit basket thing, that was clever.
 
I was just wondering- in stem cell research, does the life really end? The stem cell harvesting results in the termination of a growing embryo, sure, but a cell containing its genetic information is still alive, and quickly cultured into stocks and stocks of cells. Any one of these cells could hypothetically be transformed back into the embryo that was developing (cloning, etc.). If this is possible, is the potential for full human life truly lost? I'm sure people don't like the idea of splitting a single embryo's cell into multuple clones, but that is exactly what happens in identical twins anyways.

Little more is really required to convert this stem cell into a human than to convert an embryo on a plate into a human.

You could argue against plating embryos, but then you'd have to protest IVF. You could say the original embryo is destroyed, but it seems to me that at least some cells living is better than the truly killed cells leftover from IVF, and the embryos that naturally don't implant and thus die.

I know people will disagree- "it is the manipulation, not the result, that is wrong." That's fine, I just wanted to know why you are so convinced that the embryo is dead.
 
hardy said:
My point is that you can argue all you want. The majority has decided that it is moral and agrees that your arguments are void.
For the third time, my point has nothing to do with what people will do, but with what people ought to do. Morality is not a survey of what people are doing. You see, morality is prescriptive, not descriptive. If the moral law were democratic, all sorts of horrors would be considered wrong. Obviously, that’s stupid.

hardy said:
If you base your arguments on a book with fairy tales…

And if ifs and buts were juice and nuts, we’d all have a party.
 
little_late_MD said:
I have an observation that seems to go largely unnoticed by those who use moral (which is really just a euphamism for religious) arguments to oppose scientific procedures like stem-cell research. It is a simple fact of medicine that in any trial of prescription medicines, there is a statistical chance that one or more of the human subjects could die. Often times their deaths can be directly attributed to whichever drug that is being tested. I think it would be fair to say that in these cases, were a test subject dies due to an adverse reaction with the tested medicine, that they were killed by (however indirectly) the medicine. While an effect of any successful trial is the well-being of the test subjects, it's purpose is to develop a medicine that can benefit the population as a whole. Therefore when we say that a subject was killed by the medicine, we can infer that they were "sacrificed" for the greater good.

Medicine isn’t practiced to cure the ails of the population as a whole, but the individuals that constitute it, because what we value of society is the essential characteristic of its individuals. Moreover, society as an aggregate is valued insofar as its constituent peoples have human value. Analogically, I value a bag of MnMs not for the sake of the collection of MnMs, but to eat the individual MnMs. Moreover, the rare deaths of some due to adverse medicinal a reaction is not a sacrifice because it’s not a causal relationship between them dying and other benefiting, but a statistical happenstance.

Check your cabinets. Then look up the studies done during the testing phase of that drug. Was the mortality rate of the test subjects greater than 0.0000000000? Yes. Congradulations, you killed someone in order to increase your own chance of remaining healthy. You can't really argue your way around it. If anyone, anywhere died testing a drug that you have or currently take, then your own health has been subsidized by their death. It doesn't matter how long the chain is, eventually there is a link between you, the medicine, and the dead subject. In fact if you have ever been vaccinated for anything, phew. You're standing on a mountain of dead bodies.
I’ll go a step further than you, our ancestors’ deaths have fertilized the ground for our pea plants, every breathing instance of our lives is the harvest of previous deaths. Me and mercaptovizadeh’s argument analyzes the morality of dismantling embryonic humans, not reaping their benefits. I’m not saying fertilizing pea plants is evil.

Let's step away from medicine, and acts of "murder" by direct commission. Look at your everyday life. Do you drive a car? Guess what, you just contirbuted to someone's lung cancer. Do you throw trash away? Guess what, you just poisoned some fish who in turn just poisoned some infant. Do you wash your hands after you go to the bathroom? Everytime? Guess what, you just gave some old woman sepsis. Have you ever not given a homeless person change? Guess what, they were diabetic, and went into hypoglyemic shock. They wandered into the street, causing a 5 car pile up. 7 people died.

Sounds pretty rediculous, but if we are claiming using stemcells is immoral because they end a human life, aren't all the above situations just as immoral? Or is it different because you can't pass a law that says people need to wash their hands or give money to homeless people? Does distance absolve you? Is there no passage in the Bible that decries contributing to the systemic factors of disease? God wasn't smart enough to make that a commandment? Where do we draw the line? Where does responsibility begin? Where does it end? When does the greater good become more important than moral convictions?

Yeah All ours hands are dirty, but you’ve not accounted for degrees of dirtiness. There’s a moral difference in degree between my shooting someone in the face, and my scratching my nose and creating a cascade chain of cause/effects that leads to someone in China shooting someone in the face by virtue of butterfly effect. Morality isn’t necessarily determined by material effects, but culpability. It’s the differentiating factor between killing for self-defense and the cold-blooded murder. It’s the difference between eating some chicken for lunch and taking apart a human in a scientific laboratory.



I don't have the answers, but the moral posturing is at best irritating, and at worst hypocritical. Face it, whether it's babies or geezers or blastocysts, we have all at one time or another, directly or indirectly contributed to the death of another human being. The high horses and soapboxes of the moral majority do not provide absolution. Everyone's hands are dirty. Call me parsimonious, call me utilitarian, but I would rather save thousands of lives and prevent thousands of others from becoming diseased in the first place than save jumbles of cells that wind up in the landfill anyway. I'll sleep just fine at night, and I suspect that most of this country would as well.

You think differentiating between right and wrong is irritating and hypocritical? Me thinks you must have misspoken.
 
The problem I have with this debate is the failure to acknowledge that the other side has valid points. The way I see it, there are competing ethical principles.

1. Ameliorating human suffering -- developing technology, science, drugs, etc. to cure disease, restore function, extend life.

2. Respect for life.

For embryonic stem cell research, these conflict. The reason why there is so much desire to develop stem cell research is because it carries the potential to restore limb movement to the paralyzed, function to the brain-damaged, etc., etc.. At the same time, there is a cost involved in the creation and destruction of human embryos.

The pro-research bunch emphasize (1), and disparage (2). The anti-research bunch emphasize (2) and dismiss (1). I don't think either of those extreme views is helpful to resolving the debate. It is usually that we as individuals fall on different sides of the divide.

One other point... from a prescriptive standpoint, it is not obvious that one should never take a human life. Self-defence is an obvious example (e.g. "He came after me with a knife, I pulled out my gun, and shot him."). So clearly, there are some cases where it is ethically permissible to take human life. Where those lines are drawn are different for different people.

a_t
 
Babooshka said:
Medicine isn’t practiced to cure the ails of the population as a whole, but the individuals that constitute it, because what we value of society is the essential characteristic of its individuals. Moreover, society as an aggregate is valued insofar as its constituent peoples have human value. Analogically, I value a bag of MnMs not for the sake of the collection of MnMs, but to eat the individual MnMs. Moreover, the rare deaths of some due to adverse medicinal a reaction is not a sacrifice because it’s not a causal relationship between them dying and other benefiting, but a statistical happenstance.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Someone made the decision to carry out the study. If the study wasn't carried out, individuals that suffered reactions and died would not have died. But if the study wasn't carried out, people who benefitted (perhaps lived) because of the drug would not.

Decision to test drug => some incremental deaths, and some incremental benefits. If you emphasize the deaths, the decision to carry out the study was a decision to carry out murder. The individual(s) who ordered the studies carried out murdered, the system which allowed the study to go forward were accessories to murder, etc., etc..

Clearly, we make decisions that cause some people to die who otherwise would not have died. But we do so because we think that, on balance, more people will live.

a_t
 
Babooshka said:
Yeah All ours hands are dirty, but you’ve not accounted for degrees of dirtiness.


Here, by your own statements you have admitted to the existence of some moral relativism. However, the central thesis of your argument rests on a moral absolutism.

The minute you allow this degree of differentiation in, most of the "moral" argument goes out the window. The approach must then be utilitarian, which has no qualms with this type of research. I know that your argument maintains that action at a distance is the great absolver of the sacrifices necessary for modern medicine, but there are plenty of moral systems that do not allow for this sort of distinction. See Buddhism, many pantheistic religions, Wicca, sects of Hinduism, etc. Unfortunately your reference to the "Butterfly Effect" and subsequent dismissal of deaths during clinical trials as "statistical happenstance" are not analogous. Committing an act knowing that there is a statistical chance of some consequence, although that consequence was not your intented goal, does not absolve you of the responsibility for that act. While deaths during trials are not intended, they are forseen, and can be prevented by not doing the trials at all. No matter how much languange is thrown at the issue, it does not remove the simple fact that someone was killed to benefit another person, however tangentially it might have been.

You think differentiating between right and wrong is irritating and hypocritical? Me thinks you must have misspoken.

Do I think differentiating between right and wrong is irritating and hypocritical? No. I think the arguments used to differentiate acts that are more similar than not are tired, irritating, and hypocritical. Just because your belief system is at odds with mine does not make me unconcerned with or by moral and ethical issues. I find your condescension insulting, and your sanctimonious attitude representative for many with your point of view. It's terrible hard to have any meaningful discussions when one party is having to stain to hear the other yelling down from a high horse.
 
So if there's any degree of morality, any scale that says one act or crime is worse than another, then everything becomes relative, morality becomes a worthless concept that is only for religious zealots, and the moral scale, in your words, "goes out the window." Are you familiar with the American legal sytem?

Committing an act knowing that there is a statistical chance of some consequence, although that consequence was not your intented goal, does not absolve you of the responsibility for that act.
So the very act of driving a car makes us responsible for any accidents that happen on the road, even if they're not our fault.

But wait, that makes us murderers. There is no legitmate scale of right and wrong (don't forget, that is only for right wing christian zealots). Every time I get in the car I'm as bad as Jeffrey Dahlmer. Oh noes!


This may be how it works in your personal philosophy, but not in the laws that goven us. Believe it or not, law must play a role in medicine and govern its actions in many ways. In the World we live in, there are degrees of culpability. Intent and deliberation are very imporant in determining right from wrong.
 
Dr GeddyLee said:
So if there's any degree of morality, any scale that says one act or crime is worse than another, then everything becomes relative, morality becomes a worthless concept that is only for religious zealots, and the moral scale, in your words, "goes out the window." Are you familiar with the American legal sytem?

Yes I am quite familiar with the American legal system. While this system has it's roots in the English common law system, which was created with a healthy dose of Judeo-Christian morality, it has been adapted to further the basic tenets of the American system: capitalism. The modern American legal system is based on the furtherance and security of property rights, which is a very utilitarian concept indeed.


So the very act of driving a car makes us responsible for any accidents that happen on the road, even if they're not our fault.

Your analogy is faulty. In the clinical trials example I gave, it is an unavoidable consequence that someone will die as a result of these tests. In the act of driving a car, other than minor environmental damage a car does, there is no way your driving can harm someone short of you causing an accident. Of course you are not responsible for the actions others, but it is your decision to consume the fruits of medical tests. There is culpability there, however small.

This may be how it works in your personal philosophy, but not in the laws that goven us. Believe it or not, law must play a role in medicine and govern its actions in many ways. In the World we live in, there are degrees of culpability. Intent and deliberation are very imporant in determining right from wrong.

No one in this thread has said that law should not govern anything. However, morality does not govern the practice of law, rationality does. Systems where the law is determined by strictly moral tenets is alive and well throughout the Middle East. I don't suppose you're standing in line to move over there, are you? It's interesting that twice you mention right-wing religious zealots, while not a post of mine has mentioned these groups.
 
little_late_MD said:
Yes I am quite familiar with the American legal system. While this system has it's roots in the English common law system, which was created with a healthy dose of Judeo-Christian morality, it has been adapted to further the basic tenets of the American system: capitalism. The modern American legal system is based on the furtherance and security of property rights, which is a very utilitarian concept indeed.
The issue is your failure to acknowledge a scale of culpability. The above paragraph is, I think, just an exercise spweing meaningless rhetoric so you have something to say in the course of loosing a debate.

But it's good to see you admit that our legal system is at least partly based on judeo-christian beliefs. You contradict this later by saying morality doesn't play a part in our laws. IMO, you can usually put the Mala In Se crimes under moral auspices, Mala Prohibita under the "reason" based law (as you put it).




Your analogy is faulty. In the clinical trials example I gave, it is an unavoidable consequence that someone will die as a result of these tests. In the act of driving a car, other than minor environmental damage a car does, there is no way your driving can harm someone short of you causing an accident. Of course you are not responsible for the actions others, but it is your decision to consume the fruits of medical tests. There is culpability there, however small.

Dance puppet dance!

You said:

Committing an act knowing that there is a statistical chance of some consequence, although that consequence was not your intented goal, does not absolve you of the responsibility for that act.
Which is ludicrous and I pointed that out. My analogy was not about clinical trials, yet your odd beliefs regarding morals and ethics.

No one in this thread has said that law should not govern anything. However, morality does not govern the practice of law, rationality does. Systems where the law is determined by strictly moral tenets is alive and well throughout the Middle East. I don't suppose you're standing in line to move over there, are you? It's interesting that twice you mention right-wing religious zealots, while not a post of mine has mentioned these groups.
It's your mistake equating religion with morals. Morality is defined as "The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct." Yes there are religous mores as well as social mores, but to say morality is just a word for religion (which you did) is missing half the picture. Without morals, we wouldn't have a basis for our precious UHRs.

BTW, I happen to be for stem cell research. I'm saddened to see people on my side use such assisine, insulting logic. It only hurts the cause.

That's all.
 
I'm going to break this down in very clear language.

If the actions of some other party create some sort of a moral hazard, and you benefit from those actions, you are at least partially responsible for those actions. Culpability and scale fit perfectly in this scheme.

If this is acceptable in some situations, such as in clinical trials, then it should be acceptable in others. Any moral/ethical/legal system at the very least needs to be consistent to be effective.

What is ludicrous is that people create very convoluted moral codes to rationalize certain behaviors on their part, and condemn the actions of others. Also, in this debate I don't think that it is a mistake to equate religious values with moral judgements, as the morals we are speaking of are Judeo-Christian in nature.
 
little_late_MD said:
I'm going to break this down in very clear language.

If the actions of some other party create some sort of a moral hazard, and you benefit from those actions, you are at least partially responsible for those actions. Culpability and scale fit perfectly in this scheme.
Whoa, "moral hazard." Are you getting fundamentalist on me? I thought you said moral was just a word for religious. Let me check. . . yes you did say that exact thing.

So by your logic, driving a car (benefit) on a road with other cars creates a moral hazard, and if something does happen, you are responsible regardless of the circumstances (well before you said responsible, now it's been downgraded to "at least partially").


Also, now you are admitting the need for proportion in moral judgements, when before you said:

The minute you allow this degree of differentiation in, most of the "moral" argument goes out the window.


If this is acceptable in some situations, such as in clinical trials, then it should be acceptable in others. Any moral/ethical/legal system at the very least needs to be consistent to be effective.

What is ludicrous is that people create very convoluted moral codes to rationalize certain behaviors on their part, and condemn the actions of others. Also, in this debate I don't think that it is a mistake to equate religious values with moral judgements, as the morals we are speaking of are Judeo-Christian in nature.
So why did you say our legal system isn't influenced by morality, only reason? You seem to be going back and forth a lot here.

You must realize that in an attempt to make your point more clear, you've changed your position several times.

I accept clinical trials, I just think the way you are trying to use them to convince others who are against stem-cell research is incorrect. Much like abortion, you have to accept that some people genuinely believe it's killing a human life and this type of nonsense argument isn't going to sway them.
 
little_late said:
Also, in this debate I don't think that it is a mistake to equate religious values with moral judgements, as the morals we are speaking of are Judeo-Christian in nature.
I thought we had already established that you don't need to be a Christian or even religous to have morals.

You don't have to be Christian to believe it's immoral to murder.

Some peolple think abortion is murder and stem-cell research leads to further decay of the classification of a fetus as human.

Therefore, you can't say this belief has to be based on religion.
 
Dr GeddyLee said:
Whoa, "moral hazard." Are you getting fundamentalist on me? I thought you said moral was just a word for religious. Let me check. . . yes you did say that exact thing.
Moral Hazard is actually an economics term.

So by your logic, driving a car (benefit) on a road with other cars creates a moral hazard, and if something does happen, you are responsible regardless of the circumstances (well before you said responsible, now it's been downgraded to "at least partially").

little_late_MD said:
If the actions of some other party create some sort of a moral hazard, and you benefit from those actions, you are at least partially responsible for those actions. Culpability and scale fit perfectly in this scheme.
I can't explain it any better than this. Perhpas I could draw a picture for you?


Dr GeddyLee said:
Also, now you are admitting the need for proportion in moral judgements, when before you said:

The argument the original poster in this tangent made relied on a moral absolutism, which is negated once you bring in moral relativism. I thought that was fairly clear.

Dr GeddyLee said:
So why did you say our legal system isn't influenced by morality, only reason? You seem to be going back and forth a lot here.

I think that this is my exact quote:
little_late_MD said:
However, morality does not govern the practice of law, rationality does

You do understand the difference between governing and influencing don't you?


Dr GeddyLee said:
You must realize that in an attempt to make your point more clear, you've changed your position several times.

I would say that is not the case, but whatever floats your boat. If you read all the back to the beginning of my posts in this thread, you will see that I was not so much addressing the practice of stem cell research, but rather the logic its detractors use. I used a very long post to negate the argument that stem-cell research is not moral because it involves the ending of a life, as plenty of other moral activities cost lives. Agree, disagree, it really doesn't matter.
 
little_late_MD said:
Moral Hazard is actually an economics term.
And that relates to this context how? Why do you take this position after clearly stating that saying morality is the same thing as saying religion?




I can't explain it any better than this. Perhpas I could draw a picture for you?
You already made yourself clear with the statement:


Committing an act knowing that there is a statistical chance of some consequence, although that consequence was not your intented goal, does not absolve you of the responsibility for that act.

You have not adressed the questions I brough up regarding this attitude, you've only done a little semantic dance in order to avoid admitting the preposterous ramifications of the above statement.



The argument the original poster in this tangent made relied on a moral absolutism, which is negated once you bring in moral relativism. I thought that was fairly clear.
Ah, so if you're against murder and think it's wrong in a morally absolute way, then you can't ever allow any proportion in justice. Even things that are moral absolute must be dealth with in a manner that allows proportion. So your above statement is incorrect.


You do understand the difference between governing and influencing don't you?
In our legal system I'd say it's hard to differentiate between the two. The Constitution was very much framed by judeo-christian beliefs, the Const. is what governs our laws and how judges dole out justice. They don't just do what they think is most reasonable, they need precident and sound legal reasoning.



I would say that is not the case, but whatever floats your boat. If you read all the back to the beginning of my posts in this thread, you will see that I was not so much addressing the practice of stem cell research, but rather the logic its detractors use. I used a very long post to negate the argument that stem-cell research is not moral because it involves the ending of a life, as plenty of other moral activities cost lives. Agree, disagree, it really doesn't matter.
And failed to address the crucial matters of intent, deliberation, culpability. All activities that have the potential to end life are not equal. Robbing a bank with a BB gun during which someone gets shot by the security guard does not = the given risks we take when we get in our car every morning. This is why your statement

Committing an act knowing that there is a statistical chance of some consequence, although that consequence was not your intented goal, does not absolve you of the responsibility for that act.

is so wrong. But you've done nothing to rebut my issues with this statement and I doubt you will.
 
Dr GeddyLee said:
And failed to address the crucial matters of intent, deliberation, culpability. All activities that have the potential to end life are not equal. Robbing a bank with a BB gun during which someone gets shot by the security guard does not = the given risks we take when we get in our car every morning. This is why your statement

My argument is not rendered null with the inlcusion of these considerations, as it does allow for varying degrees of responsibility. However, no matter how dilute that responsibility is, it still exists.

Once again your car analogy is not sound. Simply getting in your car and driving around observing all proper laws and regulations does not put anyone else in danger. However, getting in your car and ignoring all the laws of proper driving do. If you were to blow a red light, causing a wreck 5 cars back, are you not at least partially responsible? Is this not akin to the example of a clinical trial, where your actions, although not primarily responsible, still contribute to the end result?
 
little_late_MD said:
.

Once again your car analogy is not sound. Simply getting in your car and driving around observing all proper laws and regulations does not put anyone else in danger. However, getting in your car and ignoring all the laws of proper driving do. If you were to blow a red light, causing a wreck 5 cars back, are you not at least partially responsible? Is this not akin to the example of a clinical trial, where your actions, although not primarily responsible, still contribute to the end result?

Yes you are responsible, no it's not akin to taking a drug that's gone through human testing. I don't see how downing a drug contributes to the "end result" (and result isn't the right word for it, if someone died in clinical trials, that has already happened before the pill is put to market).

You then equated this with the statistical danger of causing harm to others in the process of mundane activities. You stated that as long as you know there is some statistical probability of danger "although that consequence was not your intented goal," you still bear responsibility. This deals with the probablity of something happening in the course of our every-day lives. Now you are changing the scenario to someone who deliberately goes around breaking the traffic laws.

You must realize that bad things can happen even when you don't intend them to, and this is an important fundamental difference. You are trying to equate the two and that's not how it works. You take a pill that at some point in the past killed someone, this is not the same as reckless driving or any other intentional or neglegent crime. If you acknowledge this, your whole argument crumbles and we must admit that knowingly and intentionally ending life is far different from unavoidable dangers of being a human being.
 
little_late_MD said:
Simply getting in your car and driving around observing all proper laws and regulations does not put anyone else in danger.

Yes it does. How about your passengers? Do you need to be shown the statistics on this, on how many people are killed by pure accident, through no fault of their own? It's an activity with an inherent risk. Every time you get on the road, your chances for death go up even if you are obeying all the laws.

Much like taking a pill that's gone through human testing. You may know there is a chance someone died bringing this drug to market, yet that doesn't make you responsible. And that's where your argument collapses.
 
Dr GeddyLee said:
Yes it does. How about your passengers? Do you need to be shown the statistics on this, on how many people are killed by pure accident, through no fault of their own? It's an activity with an inherent risk. Every time you get on the road, your chances for death go up even if you are obeying all the laws.

Much like taking a pill that's gone through human testing. You may know there is a chance someone died bringing this drug to market, yet that doesn't make you responsible. And that's where your argument collapses.

What makes you responsible is that you paid for it. You, by participating in the market for that drug, have added to the demand. Ex posto facto you have encouraged its development, tacitly endorsing whatever measures were taken to create it. This is akin to buying goods made in an Indonesian sweatshop. Are you not at least partially responsible for the continued production of those goods, and thus of sweatshop conditions?

Now back to the car example. Imagine a world where everyone drove perfectly according to the rules and regulations set forth in their driver's manual. Would you agree the chance for an accident is just about nil? Now say a paino falls on the roof of some car. Of course you could not fault the driver there, unless they were in the business of transporting pianos by air. That is the world you are describing, and my argument does not apply there. My agreement requires that there be some event where you can in some way trace the activity of a participant to the consequences of an event. Such as in the case of a red light blower, a medication buyer, etc. I don't know, but for me, it's not so hard to see the causality between demand for a medication and its development, or for your disregard of a driving law and an accident.
 
little_late_MD said:
What makes you responsible is that you paid for it. You, by participating in the market for that drug, have added to the demand. Ex posto facto you have encouraged its development, tacitly endorsing whatever measures were taken to create it. This is akin to buying goods made in an Indonesian sweatshop. Are you not at least partially responsible for the continued production of those goods, and thus of sweatshop conditions?

Now back to the car example. Imagine a world where everyone drove perfectly according to the rules and regulations set forth in their driver's manual. Would you agree the chance for an accident is just about nil? Now say a paino falls on the roof of some car. Of course you could not fault the driver there, unless they were in the business of transporting pianos by air. That is the world you are describing, and my argument does not apply there. My agreement requires that there be some event where you can in some way trace the activity of a participant to the consequences of an event. Such as in the case of a red light blower, a medication buyer, etc. I don't know, but for me, it's not so hard to see the causality between demand for a medication and its development, or for your disregard of a driving law and an accident.
You cant "Ex Posto Facto [sic]" encourage a given drug's development. That's contradictory by nature. You don't give tacit approval to people being killed by it either. This is the heart of the argument; you did nothing deliberate, premeditated, or intentional to cause anyone harm.

For people who belive stem-cell research is adding to a culture of death and disgerard for fetal rights (not my words), they object to an intentional, deliberate, and premeditated act that they believe to be wrong. They may be 100% wrong on this issue and impeding vital medical advance, but that does not mean your idea of moral and legal equivalence holds water.
 
Dr GeddyLee said:
You don't give tacit approval to people being killed by it either. This is the heart of the argument; you did nothing deliberate, premeditated, or intentional to cause anyone harm.

How exactly is it that paying for something is not tacitly encouraging it's existence, or the methods used to create that something? As to your heart of the argument, I'm sure that you are familiar with sins of omission (to couch this in religious terms).

And I apologize for the spelling error. It must be difficult walking around on water all day.
 
One reason is that "tacit" implies knowledge. You think people taking viagra have any idea that %.00000000000001 of the test subjects died? Ironically, I doubt you could even prove they died as a result of trials.

More importantly is the fact that nothing intentional or deliberate is being done to anyone harmed in this process.

You've also failed to consider consent. People aren't forced into clinical trials. Embryos don't have a say in the matter.
 
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