Most miserable year of medical school?

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Most miserable year of medical school

  • M1

    Votes: 67 21.5%

  • M2

    Votes: 99 31.8%

  • M3

    Votes: 139 44.7%

  • M4

    Votes: 6 1.9%
  • Total voters
    311
  • Poll closed .
Haven't been an M3 yet so I'm sure my opinion will probably change once I start M3, but I think there were parts of M1 that were pretty damn miserable. Overall I liked M1, but for the first few weeks, I was really doubting my decision to go to medical school. I've always been very sure of my career decisions and my future, so feeling that self-doubt for the first time was rough.
And M2>>>>>>>>M1.
 
Syncrohnize said:
Note I’m not asking most difficult, most stressful, most busy...I’m asking most miserable.
Click to expand...

Don't those things create a miserable environment?

M2 isn't horrible but it's my least favorite part of medschool so far, especially here around the back-end. I'm tired of being in the classroom and I'm starting to develop a psuedo-senioritis since we're almost done (only 5 weeks left of lectures - we start dedicated relatively early). Plus, people are becoming much more stressed out, students and faculty, so it makes you not want to deal with it all.

Like we have a test tomorrow and I couldn't honestly care less.

Edit: About halfway through my IM rotation - 2nd year is the worst. 3rd year is extremely busy but in my opinion Step 1 is the single largest hurdle in medical school and is all downhill from there
 
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Intern year is often the worst year of someone's life, but not medical school.

OTOH, MS3 is the worst year of med school. MS1 can be a hard transition. MS3 - I dunno, a lot of people have moments of sheer humiliation of tears that just can't be duplicated in the didactic years.
 
sovereign0 said:
Sure, dedicated period M2 or pre-match/interview season of M4 might be more stressful.

But nothing screams misery like waking up at 4am to drag your face over the cheese grater that is Surgery for 8 straight weeks.
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what a delightful, colorful, and accurate metaphor
 
Lannister said:
Haven't been an M3 yet so I'm sure my opinion will probably change once I start M3, but I think there were parts of M1 that were pretty damn miserable. Overall I liked M1, but for the first few weeks, I was really doubting my decision to go to medical school. I've always been very sure of my career decisions and my future, so feeling that self-doubt for the first time was rough.
And M2>>>>>>>>M1.
Click to expand...
I agree. M2 year is a lot more work and more stressful with boards and such, but the material is so much more interesting than all the M1 anatomy and physiology that it makes it much more enjoyable for me.
 
Crayola227 said:
Intern year is often the worst year of someone's life, but not medical school.

OTOH, MS3 is the worst year of med school. MS1 can be a hard transition. MS3 - I dunno, a lot of people have moments of sheer humiliation of tears that just can't be duplicated in the didactic years.
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Why is intern year so bad?
 
M3 by far the worst. Dealing with a bunch of a-holes and being scutted out while being forced into a lot of specialties that you couldn't care less about. Sleep deprivation. Also endless hours of being an unwanted and useless wall flower.
 
HomeSkool said:
It's like MS-3 year except with more responsibility, less sleep, longer shifts, and you have to make little quote marks with your fingers when you say you get "paid".
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I am sure it is terrifying actually making medical decisions for the first time. I know I am going to be mortified that I am going to kill someone.
 
libertyyne said:
I am sure it is terrifying actually making medical decisions for the first time.
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As an intern, that part isn't as bad as you might think because you have at least two layers of safety nets (a senior resident and an attending).

On the other hand, I nearly shat myself the first time I took call as an attending and realized that I was the safety net.
 
sovereign0 said:
Sure, dedicated period M2 or pre-match/interview season of M4 might be more stressful.

But nothing screams misery like waking up at 4am to drag your face over the cheese grater that is Surgery for 8 straight weeks.
Click to expand...

Can confirm. On surgery now, why on earth would anyone ever do this? Some of the worst personalities I've ever met in my life, and that's not even the physicians, pretty much the rest of the surgery department.
 
Rekt said:
Can confirm. On surgery now, why on earth would anyone ever do this? Some of the worst personalities I've ever met in my life.
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apparently gen surg is getting more competitive by the year. What is even crazier is that Gen surg residency have an attrition rate of 21% or something like that.
 
libertyyne said:
apparently gen surg is getting more competitive by the year. What is even crazier is that Gen surg residency have an attrition rate of 21% or something like that.
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The attrition rate isn't all that surprising, but the competitiveness is. I'm actually certain that the two are related. I'm curious to how many people go into Gen Surg with sights on a particular fellowship (failed to match integrated CT or plastics, or thinking peds surg / transplant), but then realize that no endgame could possibly be worth 5 or 7 years as a Gen Surg resident.

Maybe I'm just specialty bashing at this point, but Gen Surg seems like the dumping ground of the hospital for all the stuff that doesn't end up in the hospitalist's hands. The most boring surgical cases (because all the cool stuff is done by subspecialists) coupled with the most boring medicine that keeps you away from the OR - changing nasty wound dressings, dealing with ostomies, etc. Progress notes that say "still has postop ileus, still bitching about NPO status." or days where a patient farting is the best news you've heard all week.

For those reasons, I respect the hell out of general surgeons and their subspecialties from my perspective. The former for doing the work they do - because someone has to - and the latter for surviving years of that godawful residency and fellowship to do what they really wanted to in the end. Especially those peds surgeons. True badasses of the OR.
 
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sovereign0 said:
The attrition rate isn't all that surprising, but the competitiveness is. I'm actually certain that the two are related. I'm curious to how many people go into Gen Surg with sights on a particular fellowship (failed to match integrated CT or plastics, or thinking peds surg / transplant), but then realize that no endgame could possibly be worth 5 or 7 years as a Gen Surg resident.

Maybe I'm just specialty bashing at this point, but Gen Surg seems like the dumping ground of the hospital for all the "trash" that doesn't end up in the hospitalist wastebasket. The most boring surgical cases (because all the cool stuff is done by subspecialists) coupled with the most boring medicine that keeps you away from the OR - changing nasty wound dressings, dealing with ostomies. Progress notes that say "still has postop ileus, still bitching about NPO status." or days where a patient farting is the best news you've heard all week.

For those reasons, I respect the hell out of general surgeons and their subspecialties from my perspective. The former for doing the work they do - because someone has to - and the latter for surviving years of that godawful residency and fellowship to do what they really wanted to in the end. Especially those peds surgeons. True badasses of the OR.
Click to expand...

for anyone that's ever read Orwell's Animal Farm, I call surgeons the "workhorses" of medicine. Easily one of the hardest working bunch of people on the planet.
 
So, serious question, what do you even do during 3rd year? Like what percent of the time are you just standing around watching, vs actually doing stuff (even if it's the most basic of scutwork)? I effing despise shadowing because it's so boring, I hate just standing there watching and not actively doing anything. I'm really hoping 3rd year will not be like that. From what I've heard it sounds like it's mostly what you make of it, and you have to ask to do stuff, which is definitely gonna be a struggle for me.
 
Lannister said:
So, serious question, what do you even do during 3rd year? Like what percent of the time are you just standing around watching, vs actually doing stuff (even if it's the most basic of scutwork)? I effing despise shadowing because it's so boring, I hate just standing there watching and not actively doing anything. I'm really hoping 3rd year will not be like that. From what I've heard it sounds like it's mostly what you make of it, and you have to ask to do stuff, which is definitely gonna be a struggle for me.
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Part of it is what you said - what you make of it - but I also feel like both the floor and the ceiling of the experience are established by your school. Some schools do a great job of keeping you involved and giving you some ounce of responsibility. Some places just have you shadow.

I'm sure in either scenario there's downtime with nothing to do / glorified shadowing.
 
HomeSkool said:
It's like MS-3 year except with more responsibility, less sleep, longer shifts, and you have to make little quote marks with your fingers when you say you get "paid".
Click to expand...

Lol and here I am looking forward to making any money at all..
 
libertyyne said:
apparently gen surg is getting more competitive by the year. What is even crazier is that Gen surg residency have an attrition rate of 21% or something like that.
Click to expand...

Aside: I think psych has a higher attrition rate.

Lannister said:
So, serious question, what do you even do during 3rd year? Like what percent of the time are you just standing around watching, vs actually doing stuff (even if it's the most basic of scutwork)? I effing despise shadowing because it's so boring, I hate just standing there watching and not actively doing anything. I'm really hoping 3rd year will not be like that. From what I've heard it sounds like it's mostly what you make of it, and you have to ask to do stuff, which is definitely gonna be a struggle for me.
Click to expand...

I expect it to be very dependent on where you do your rotation. Where I went to medical school, the med students were very hands-on with a lot of things because the staffing was so thin.
 
CherryRedDracul said:
Aside: I think psych has a higher attrition rate.



I expect it to be very dependent on where you do your rotation. Where I went to medical school, the med students were very hands-on with a lot of things because the staffing was so thin.
Click to expand...
That is crazy I just looked up the one study i could find.
Association of Remediation and Program Director Attitudes With Resident Attrition
http://www.jgme.org/doi/full/10.4300/JGME-D-12-00141.1?code=gmed-site
Prevalence and Causes of Attrition Among Surgical Residents
i1949-8357-5-2-267-f01.gif


The most recent data I found indicated surgery was at 8~%

Psych still has an absurdly high attrition rate, any insight into why this is the case? I thought they had pretty decent hours compared to surgery. One would assume psych residents knew what they were getting into and what inpatient psych is really like.

I chose my school based on the fact that they had lots of hands on clinical training because of a paucity of staff at the affiliated hospitals and being in a Major city with a large impoverished population.
 
A lot of 3rd year experiences are like overglorified shadowing.

congrats if you are at a good school that isn't like that

Also, psychiatry despite all the reasons people think, is actually exhausting

not the same way a Whipple is, but still, a 9-5 pm psych day inpt or out can be exhausting
 
Crayola227 said:
A lot of 3rd year experiences are like overglorified shadowing.

congrats if you are at a good school that isn't like that

Also, psychiatry despite all the reasons people think, is actually exhausting

not the same way a Whipple is, but still, a 9-5 pm psych day inpt or out can be exhausting
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I bet it is a glorious feeling going home exhausted but seeing the outcome of your hard work , a good patient outcome, immediately. Vs pysch which is probably a lot more protracted and subtle changes . But I know nothing so I will refrain from hypothesizing any further.
 
Lannister said:
So, serious question, what do you even do during 3rd year? Like what percent of the time are you just standing around watching, vs actually doing stuff (even if it's the most basic of scutwork)? I effing despise shadowing because it's so boring, I hate just standing there watching and not actively doing anything. I'm really hoping 3rd year will not be like that. From what I've heard it sounds like it's mostly what you make of it, and you have to ask to do stuff, which is definitely gonna be a struggle for me.
Click to expand...

It's so variable. My peds neuro experience was by far the worst two weeks of my life because I wasn't ALLOWED to do anything. Every other rotation appreciated my initiative and let me do as much as I want within the confines of delivering safe care to patients. I just stayed excited and engaged; it's the best way to not lose faith in medicine. I also had great relationships with the people I worked with. This was key because even if they made me do "scutwork" sometimes, it didn't bother me. I would rather I do it than take them away from the OR or add to the insanity that the interns dealt with already. All about the mindset, IMO.
 
libertyyne said:
I bet it is a glorious feeling going home exhausted but seeing the outcome of your hard work , a good patient outcome, immediately. Vs pysch which is probably a lot more protracted and subtle changes . But I know nothing so I will refrain from hypothesizing any further.
Click to expand...

that's a classic difference between the two

they're both exhausting and for different reasons

psych is definitely not for the instant gratification with my hands folks

inpt psych can sometimes be remarkable in terms of quick dramatic changes and turn around (relatively speaking), but it's not like you "reach in with your hands and frakking make it happen!"

the locus of control is still more external, in the hands of the patient or the meds

for the surgeon, it's less about what the meds do and more about their hands getting results now
 
libertyyne said:
That is crazy I just looked up the one study i could find.
Association of Remediation and Program Director Attitudes With Resident Attrition
http://www.jgme.org/doi/full/10.4300/JGME-D-12-00141.1?code=gmed-site
Prevalence and Causes of Attrition Among Surgical Residents
i1949-8357-5-2-267-f01.gif


The most recent data I found indicated surgery was at 8~%

Psych still has an absurdly high attrition rate, any insight into why this is the case? I thought they had pretty decent hours compared to surgery. One would assume psych residents knew what they were getting into and what inpatient psych is really like.

I chose my school based on the fact that they had lots of hands on clinical training because of a paucity of staff at the affiliated hospitals and being in a Major city with a large impoverished population.
Click to expand...
People go into psych thinking it's a lifestyle specialty, only to realize the pay is not that good, you give up a lot of medicine, you receive little respect, and the patient population is far more challenging than anticipated. Psych is emotionally draining in a way other specialties just aren't. It has interpersonal skill demands that other specialties don't. And you might very well be the last person many people talk to before ending their own lives. Added bonuses include being the most likely to be killed by one of your patients and constant contact with the legal system if you're working in many areas of psych.

I love the field, but like, it's certainly not all fun and games as many people seem to think going in. It's a demanding and challenging specialty that requires a higher degree of fit than most other areas, and if you don't fit you'll be scrambling to escape.
 
if you go the right school, ms1/2 are probably easier than undergrad and high school (if you were the AP nerdy type). You don't have to show up to anything, you just pass exams, and OD on pathoma/FA. MS3, now that's a different story.
 
Mad Jack said:
People go into psych thinking it's a lifestyle specialty, only to realize the pay is not that good, you give up a lot of medicine, you receive little respect, and the patient population is far more challenging than anticipated. Psych is emotionally draining in a way other specialties just aren't. It has interpersonal skill demands that other specialties don't. And you might very well be the last person many people talk to before ending their own lives. Added bonuses include being the most likely to be killed by one of your patients and constant contact with the legal system if you're working in many areas of psych.

I love the field, but like, it's certainly not all fun and games as many people seem to think going in. It's a demanding and challenging specialty that requires a higher degree of fit than most other areas, and if you don't fit you'll be scrambling to escape.
Click to expand...

I was given a good lecture by a leading expert in violence in medicine, and it was a former cop turned ER doc

it's actually EM that has the highest rate of murder from their patients

just because of the number of mass shootings that happen every year

I think all around acts of violence was also higher in the ED

I'm not surprised that psych would also be high on this measure
 
Shams al Deen said:
if you go the right school, ms1/2 are probably easier than undergrad and high school (if you were the AP nerdy type). You don't have to show up to anything, you just pass exams, and OD on pathoma/FA. MS3, now that's a different story.
Click to expand...

I never had to work as hard in undergrad, and I honestly can't remember ever studying in high school. Honestly, the HS comparison is ridiculous. P/F does relieve a lot of the stress of feeling like you need A's to keep the MD dream alive, but the amount of work to pass doesn't compare.
 
Crayola227 said:
I was given a good lecture by a leading expert in violence in medicine, and it was a former cop turned ER doc

it's actually EM that has the highest rate of murder from their patients

just because of the number of mass shootings that happen every year

I think all around acts of violence was also higher in the ED

I'm not surprised that psych would also be high on this measure
Click to expand...
The day to day violence in the ETC was always concerning. Our hospital shelled out money to have an off duty police officer , and some people wanted to give the security guards tasers which was nixxed by admin.
 
Crayola227 said:
I was given a good lecture by a leading expert in violence in medicine, and it was a former cop turned ER doc

it's actually EM that has the highest rate of murder from their patients

just because of the number of mass shootings that happen every year

I think all around acts of violence was also higher in the ED

I'm not surprised that psych would also be high on this measure
Click to expand...
I'd read different numbers- the psych statistic was specifically being killed by one of your own patients, not just bring murdered on the job. I'll have to look it up tomorrow and see if I can find any decent stats, as that was a thread years ago on the topic and things might have changed.
 
Crayola227 said:
I was given a good lecture by a leading expert in violence in medicine, and it was a former cop turned ER doc

it's actually EM that has the highest rate of murder from their patients

just because of the number of mass shootings that happen every year

I think all around acts of violence was also higher in the ED

I'm not surprised that psych would also be high on this measure
Click to expand...
Aggression and Violence Directed Toward Physicians

Funny, it's an old article but psych and EM are the clear "winners."
 
Mad Jack said:
People go into psych thinking it's a lifestyle specialty, only to realize the pay is not that good, you give up a lot of medicine, you receive little respect, and the patient population is far more challenging than anticipated. Psych is emotionally draining in a way other specialties just aren't. It has interpersonal skill demands that other specialties don't. And you might very well be the last person many people talk to before ending their own lives. Added bonuses include being the most likely to be killed by one of your patients and constant contact with the legal system if you're working in many areas of psych.

I love the field, but like, it's certainly not all fun and games as many people seem to think going in. It's a demanding and challenging specialty that requires a higher degree of fit than most other areas, and if you don't fit you'll be scrambling to escape.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. When I was on psych, my psych chief signed his contract for an attending position for 400k per year. I had no idea up until that point that psych paid that much. His hours sounded pretty relaxed too (but take this with a grain of salt as my point of comparison is with surgery hours).
 
Shams al Deen said:
if you go the right school, ms1/2 are probably easier than undergrad and high school (if you were the AP nerdy type). You don't have to show up to anything, you just pass exams, and OD on pathoma/FA. MS3, now that's a different story.
Click to expand...
Agreed. In college I had a 4.0 until senior year, volunteered, worked 29 hours a week, did research and was very active in clubs. In med school I don't work, barely volunteer, do little research. I get more sleep in med school than I ever did in college.
 
Shams al Deen said:
if you go the right school, ms1/2 are probably easier than undergrad and high school (if you were the AP nerdy type). You don't have to show up to anything, you just pass exams, and OD on pathoma/FA. MS3, now that's a different story.
Click to expand...
Despite never actually being on campus, except for the obligatory 10ish hours of mandatory drudgery per week, I still hated M1. M2 isn't as bad somehow despite the workload being nearly double (constant, now weekly, exams and boards looming).

M3 though... my God it's going to be horrible. I just know it will. In my heart, I do.
 
haihai4 said:
This is interesting. When I was on psych, my psych chief signed his contract for an attending position for 400k per year. I had no idea up until that point that psych paid that much. His hours sounded pretty relaxed too (but take this with a grain of salt as my point of comparison is with surgery hours).
Click to expand...
Jobs like that are out there, but if you look at the salary data, they're the exception, not the rule. It's like FM, where for every person you hear of making 400k there's another five making 220k.
 
Synchronize /vetmedhead you just starting? My advice is be careful who you stick up to
 
HomeSkool said:
It's like MS-3 year except with more responsibility, less sleep, longer shifts, and you have to make little quote marks with your fingers when you say you get "paid".
Click to expand...

Meh. Intern year was hard, but I felt useful and learned to be a competent physician. By the end of intern year I felt confident that I actually knew what I was doing, mostly because of how much call I had to take that year in a very front-loaded program.

M3 was just me putting on a performance, and trying to please the person who was watching over me, regardless of if I was doing things correctly or not. I have whatever the male version is of "resting b-tch face" so I'm pretty sure I got docked for insufficient enthusiasm on just about every rotation I was son.

Intern year, on the other hand was just me being evaluated for if I got my sh-t done or not. Soooo much better.
 
Mad Jack said:
Jobs like that are out there, but if you look at the salary data, they're the exception, not the rule. It's like FM, where for every person you hear of making 400k there's another five making 220k.
Click to expand...

Psych also tends to have a clustering of providers in urban areas, so your pay tends to go up the farther you are away from downtown, and conversely down in the other direction. I'm making below-average for the specialty, but I'm within walking distance of the Chicago Loop, so the tradeoff is worth it.
 
3rd year has actually been my favorite so far. Yes, I did lose orientation to time and place during surgery due to the sleep deprivation-but I’ve actually liked the rest of third year.

But, I think I also got in a really good program-so I also feel like I’m learning a ton. Idk.

My most stressful time was the step period. It just felt like everything I had done up to that point was on the line. But everything went ok, and now I’m here.
 
M1 was awful. Only year I thought about dropping out. My mental health barely made it through intact. Could not do this year again no matter what you offered me.

M2 was exhausting and stressful, but I felt like I knew what I was doing.

M3 was enjoyable with the exception of a block or two. Still busy and stressful, but the variety broke it up so I liked it more than M2’s 10 hours of Robbins a day.

M4 has been great, with the exception of one block with horrible hours and the week of sleepless nights before Match Day.
 
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