motorcycles

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Cmaj7th

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I know this question is not EM residency related, nor am I a medical student or EM resident, but I'm curious as to what your thoughts on motorcycles are. How many bike related accidents do you see? Is it just asking for trouble or do you think you can ride responsibly? And who on here rides?

I ask because a few of my friends who recently got back from the Army have run off and bought bikes. They go on and on about how fun it is and how I should get one. My mom's a doc though and she said I was an absolute idiot. Wanted to see if this is a shared opinion or my mom just being a mom.

PS If you have any cool bike related stories feel free to share.
 
I know several docs who have motorcycles. I would not ride one, and I would not allow my children to ride one (while it is my choice.) I think everyone who buys one should have to spend a couple nights in a trauma center or trauma ICU seeing what happens when people do either crash or have to lay down the bike. In the end it doesn't matter how much of a "good driver" you are. It's everybody else on the road you have to be worried about.

That said, do what you want, but know the consequences. Wear a helmet and be an organ donor.
 
I really, really wanted a motorcycle for a while. In some ways, I still do. They're pretty awesome to ride. But every time I'd get the money and courage to go out and get one, something horrible would come through the trauma bay doors.

If I recall correctly, most motorcycle accidents actually occur in town, usually at a stoplight. Often they are not the cyclist's fault but the driver of a car who didn't see them (turning left at a light where there is oncoming traffic). You can be the best and most careful rider in the world, but there are way too many idiots on the road. All it takes is one bump from a car and you're dead. It's just a matter of mass and momentum.

If it's something you're going to do, be smart about it. Start with a smaller bike that you can control. Take a safety class; they are offered frequently and generally easy to get into. They also generally offer a loaner bike. When you finish, see if you can take the police motorcycle course offered to officers. Practice stopping. Read "Proficient Motorcylcing" two or three times through. Practice stopping and know your town. If you live in a big busy city forget about it.

Oh and at least have the decency to be an organ donor and have good insurance.
 
If you own a motorcycle, you are going to wreck. It's just a question of when and how badly.
 
I've been riding most of my life, and currently commute most days on a sport touring bike. We have one other ED nurse and a couple aircare nurses and one of my attendings who ride almost just as frequently. When I graduate, I'll more than likely continue to commute on a motorcycle to work... dream bike at the moment is a Ducati Diavel which might just be my graduation present to myself. There's a few attendings on the gas forum that I've noticed ride quite a bit too. THAT being said...

You're going to lay the bike down at some point, period. There are 2 types of riders, those who have, and those who haven't yet, but everyone does at some point. Hopefully it's from a stand still, or at low speed, or any number of more benign conditions but you WILL lay it down. Yes, you can ride responsibly and safely, it's not a death wish. I've seen bad MCC's in the ED and I've seen just as bad MVC's, if everyone had maximal concern for their commuting safety, we'd all be riding the bus every day and taking trains, never driving at night or on holidays and nobody would be scuba diving on vacation, learning to fly or any of the other multitude of fun and enjoyable pursuits in life. Like all things, just learn to do it safely and minimize your risk. (Hell, if I were really that neurotic about risk, I wouldn't even be working in the ED! Think about my risk of HIV,Hep,TB exposure compared to say a dermatologist or allergist for that matter.)

If you're going to buy a motorcycle, start with a good MSF course, invest in some good protective gear and learn good basics, learn to ride responsibly and defensively. If you're going to get a crotch rocket, start with a 600cc bike, you can't learn safely on a 1000cc sports bike, an R1 would kill you. Better yet, get a street fighter, standard, cruiser, etc.. The best thing you can do though is learn good ingrained habits. Even today I shift down, slow down and scan any upcoming traffic light routinely before passing through. I anticipate that any car waiting to pull out on the road in front of me, doesn't see me, so I shift and slow down, preparing that they might whip out in front of me, it's just automatic. I still try to avoid riding as much as possible at night and if I do I pick the most lighted roads or ones that I'm more familiar with. If it's dark and I can't see the roads that great, I ride behind and in the side lane of a car with good lights, not anywhere near their blind spot and use their beams to scan the road ahead looking for any dead animal or blown tire parts, etc.. I no longer do wheelies or any of the other crazy stuff I used to do. I don't care how hot it is, you won't see me riding in t-shirt and sandals or even a half-helmet. (I've always worn full.) If you learn to ride safe and develop ingrained good habits, you'll ride a long time and have a lot of fun doing it. There's nothing better than taking a long ride on the weekend with a picnic and exploring the countryside with my wife on the back. Wanna ride more aggressively in a controlled environment? No problem, find the closest track and make a day of it with some friends and good gear. Scrape some pegs.

I've wrecked, nothing major, and it was virtually ALWAYS pushing the limits of my bike or doing something stupid that I knew I shouldn't have been doing in the first place. Most of the horrific accidents we see in the ED are people doing incredibly stupid stuff that they shouldn't have been doing in the first place... like wheelies on the interstate at 2a.m. after a couple beers and they veer into the side lane and get clipped by someone drunk. Don't be that guy. Stay away from the wheelies, burnouts, endo's, etc..

But I disagree with the majority who will tell you that you're crazy for wanting a motorcycle. You're not. Someday you might want to climb everest, or take a safari, or explore the amazon, or learn to fly, any number of things that statistically increase your likelihood of dying. Just have fun and learn to be safe, but I say if you want to learn to ride, you've probably picked a great time to do it. Just my lengthy 2 cents on the matter because I get these horrified responses from people from time to time asking me how I can work in an ED and still ride a motorcycle...
 
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Groove said:
But I disagree with the majority who will tell you that you're crazy for wanting a motorcycle. You're not. Someday you might want to climb everest, or take a safari, or explore the amazon, or learn to fly, any number of things that statistically increase your likelihood of dying. Just have fun and learn to be safe, but I say if you want to learn to ride, you've probably picked a great time to do it. Just my lengthy 2 cents on the matter because I get these horrified responses from people from time to time asking me how I can work in an ED and still ride a motorcycle...
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"Suck the marrow from the bone of life" and all that happy horse****. My dad had a hog for 30 years. I know what it entails.

If you pile it up (and, as has been amply stated, you will), and I see you, I will do everything I can to help you. I won't tell you, but I will think you got a bit of what you deserved. (I think the same of people that die mountain climbing or "extreme biking" or freerunning or street racing or open sea diving or octopus wrestling or civilian HALO jumping or base jumping or, for a large segment, flying your own airplane - there's a reason people make $100K/year doing it full time.)

Now, among those of you defending riding, some will interpret my last paragraph as condescending, and will erroneously conclude that I would treat such patients less than others. All I can say is that that is not so, and you just have to see me in practice to know I can place my scorn away cleanly.
 
I really agree with Groove, and I tend to shrug off people who'll say "you're going to crash at some point, so don't do it!" and expect the conversation to end at that.

As Groove pointed out, most things have a certain degree of risk, and it's really up to the individual to determine the amount of risk that's reasonable to take on for potential reward.

There's nothing quite like thumping down the road with the wind whizzing by, not surrounded by a big metal box. We spend a lot of our lives contained in something, and there aren't a lot of things that provide the kind of free feeling that motorcycles do (Also, when you get into maintenance and restoration, there's a whole 'nother calming hobby to open up).

I've seen some pretty gnarly wrecks--prehospital and in the trauma room, but I don't know if that'll keep me from the saddle.
 
Apollyon said:
If you pile it up (and, as has been amply stated, you will), and I see you, I will do everything I can to help you. I won't tell you, but I will think you got a bit of what you deserved.
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True to an extent, but there's a lot of random chance involved. People can reduce their risk a lot motorcycling, and I have little sympathy for the meth-head who was out stunting, lost control, and had his leg crushed by his bike, but I'm not going to blame the responsible dude who was going the speed limit, wearing high-visibility clothes & protective gear, and was nailed in an intersection by someone not watching for him as he turned.
 
I am 34 years old. I have been riding dirt bikes since I was 9 and street bikes since I was 16. I got lucky a few times when I was young and dumb. I'm also a pilot and have over 175 landings on aircraft carriers. I haven't died yet or even been to an ER because of motorcycles or flying. I generally agree that if you get f'ed up or die doing something "extreme", you deserve it. But there is a diffence between being crap happening and being ill prepared. You can get killed walking across the street if you don't look before crossing.

I completely agree with Groove. Start off a bit smarter than I did. I stopped riding sport bikes because I scared myself a few times and I wasn't even doing anything near as crazy as Groove mentioned. One day I want a dedicated sport bike that won't even be street legal. It will only be a track bike. No oncomming traffic, no gravel on the road, no barriers to slam into.

I will say that I know plenty that have died in both motorcycle accidents an aviation accidents. Mostly it was their own fault though.
 
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Packer has suggested four categories to describe the different approaches to the risks of motorcycling. The first and fourth categories take opposite views of motorcycling, but share a fatalistic notion that to motorcycle is to tempt fate. The second and third categories differ in the degree of emphasis they place on measures to limit the risk of riding, but share the view that riders have some degree of control and are not victims of fate.[15]

1. Quit riding. Or ban motorcycling; this is the belief that motorcycling is too dangerous. Some former motorcyclists had an epiphany due to an accident involving themselves or a person they know, which permanently upends their view of motorcycling. Some are adamant in their opposition to motorcycling, unwilling to consider the merits or pleasures of riding due to their horror at the danger and physical carnage of motorcycle accidents. Agony aunt Claire Rayner, in her review of Melissa Holbrook Pierson's motorcycling book The Perfect Vehicle, admits her prejudice that nothing Pierson writes could change her attitude about motorcycling because, "I used to be hospital casualty nurse and spent so much time dealing with bikers who were scraped off the road like so much raspberry jam after accidents that I became an implacable hater of the machine... The danger to which bikers constantly put themselves, however well-wrapped in their urban armour of studded leather, and however horrendously helmeted, seems to me a reason for banning the infernal machines. ...a smell of blood and smashed muscle and bone mixed with engine oil. That is what motor cycle means to me. And, I'm afraid, always will."[16] Some safety experts have advocated banning motorcycling altogether as being untenably dangerous.[17][18]

2. Hyperreflective self-disciplinary. This attitude to risk consists of self-criticism, constant vigilance, perpetual training and practice, and continual upgrading of safety equipment. It is sometimes a reaction to an epiphany. David Edwards of Cycle World wrote, "Here's the thing: motorcycles are not dangerous," saying that if a rider has a license, attends riding schools, wears all the gear all the time, and develops an accident avoidance sixth sense, motorcycling can become safe... do all of these things, become really serious about your roadcraft, and you'll be so under-represented in accident statistics as to become almost bulletproof." An advertisement appeared on the opposite page of Edwards' editorial, for FirstGear brand riding gear for leather and textile riding suits and jackets.[19] There are many examples of riding advice which enumerate strategies for avoiding danger while riding, but they de-emphasize the rider accepting inherent risk as part of riding, instead emphasizing the rider's agency, based on his education and practice, in determining whether he will crash or not, and the utility of the correct safety gear in whether or not he will be injured in a crash.[15][20]

3. Risk Valorization.[21] This is the acceptance that risk is unavoidable but can be embraced by making certain choices, whereby motorcyclists, "reappropriate risk and motorcycling as something which can't be measured only according to utility and efficiency... This discourse doesn't eschew safety in absolute terms, but neither does it maintain the validity of safety as the be-all and end-all for riding."[15] Motorcycling advocate and writer Wendy Moon said that one of the reasons she relaxed her insistence on always wearing a helmet while riding was that she no longer considered it worth "the mental effort required to maintain that protective attitude. I am not free to live in the now because I’m enslaved to the future 'what if.' …So we gradually distance ourselves from experiencing a full and free life and we don’t even know it. As a society, we’re like kids so bundled up against the snow we cannot move at all…. Embracing that risk rejuvenates the soul and empowers one to live the rest of her life as she wants."[22]

4. Flaunting risk. Hunter S. Thompson's passages in his book Hell's Angels have been quoted by Packer and others as perhaps the best illustrations of the devil-may-care approach of a sizable group motorcyclists: "They shun even the minimum safety measures that most cyclists take for granted. You will never see a Hell's Angel wearing a crash helmet. Nor do they wear Brando-Dylan-style 'silver-studded phantom' leather jackets," and "anything safe, they want no part of", and "The Angels don't want anybody to think they're hedging their bets."[23] In his essay Song of the Sausage Creature, Thompson wrote, "It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures."[24] Packer calls it, "a fate driven sensibility."[15]

Like I alluded to, everyone feels very strongly about this and hey.. it's your life, so develop your own attitude about risk avoidance. Apollyon probably is an advocate of #1 whereas I'm an advocate of #2 and in my own limited experience, most ED MCC's involve the #4's and fewer #3's. Apollyon, I'm truly sorry if your father had a bad outcome. If he did, you have every right to feel as you do.. However, try not to be as judgmental towards riders if one of these guys shows up in the ED some night... Hopefully your first thought is not "he got what he deserved".

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Pentagon motorcycle police officer from the DoD for those interested..
 
Groove said:
Apollyon, I'm truly sorry if your father had a bad outcome. If he did, you have every right to feel as you do.. However, try not to be as judgmental towards riders if one of these guys shows up in the ED some night... Hopefully your first thought is not "he got what he deserved".
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My dad didn't buy it on his bike. He died in the garage working on his hot rod. He did have a mild accident about 18 years before he died - the rear cylinder on his knucklehead (for you non-Harley aficionados, that is the name for the cylinder head - others include the flathead and shovel head) chopper blew up, and he laid it down, and skidded on the roadway some few feet. Injury wise, he only had an abrasion to his elbow. However, and I Am Not Making This Up - he burned a hole in the ass of his Levis. Seriously - right to the drawers. That was from friction.

As I say, my "judgmental" attitude is nowhere evident. These guys have no idea what I'm thinking, and, last one I had, was a guy who was on a Norton (seriously). When he told me that, and I told him he wasn't that badly injured (at all), I was more concerned for the bike. Moreover, having grown up knowing my dad's friends (many of whom struck colors, but my dad never did - he was a friend to all clubs), I have respect for them. Also, unlike most people in "cages" (again, for non-riders, that is the term for cars to bikers - Springsteen, Born to Run "at night we ride through mansions of glory on suicide machines/sprung from cages on highway 9/chrome wheeled, fuel injected and steppin' out over the line" - although I can only find reference to fuel injection in BMWs and Japanese bikes in 1975), I am aware of the biker on the road, and support them. However, this does not change my perspective that, although I will save you, I do not have sympathy for you.

Police here in Honolulu have a fleet of 9 or 10 BMW bikes for traffic enforcement (which may be the same model as you have pictured). However, there's no "lid law" here in Hawai'i, and guys even go without a skid lid on the interstate (we have H-1, H-2, and H-3). My dad said that that was crazy.
 
been riding motorcycles since i was 8 years old, definitely not planning on stopping any time soon. love 'em.

it always amazes me the attitudes people have about motorcycles in general. I would never think in a million years that because I chose two-wheeled transportation, someone would think I "got what I deserved" after another driver cut me off and I suffered life-threatening injuries.
 
coldweatherblue said:
been riding motorcycles since i was 8 years old, definitely not planning on stopping any time soon. love 'em.

it always amazes me the attitudes people have about motorcycles in general. I would never think in a million years that because I chose two-wheeled transportation, someone would think I "got what I deserved" after another driver cut me off and I suffered life-threatening injuries.
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Why don't you just address me? You make it sound so sanitized - just like "standing on the street corner, minding my own business" - "I choose two-wheeled transportation", with the hyperbolic "never...in a million years". Do you deny statistics? And, although that is a problem (being cut off, intentionally or unintentionally), how often is that the cause? And, if you would never think in a million years, how can it "always amaze you"? One or the other. Does "got what you deserved" get under your skin? It looks like it. However, what other way would you put it - "that's your lot". "That's what you get"?

It's like that link above about the Angels - they wear nothing protective, because they are up front. And, when they crash, they take it. No excuses. No wishy-washy "never in a million years" or the like. I had a guy who was an Angels chapter president who was s/p head injury a couple years before. He wasn't looking for pity, offered no excuses, and just took what happened to him.

The enclosed, 4-wheeled vehicle is the status quo. That's all there is to it. That is incontrovertible. It's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. That's what you get. If you choose to be much, much, much less protected, irrespective of even having contact with another vehicle, that is your choice. On it's face, that seems ill-advised. Even if you don't hit or get hit by another vehicle, if you hit some road débris, if you lose traction from a puddle or standing water, if you have a mechanical problem, if the sun gets in your eyes, if you get a bug in the eye, if you have a rock penetrate your safety goggles (true story) and you lose control, you are at a much higher risk of injury. It's like a bug with a chitin exoskeleton versus a fleshy mammal. Mammals get more injured because our skeleton is on the inside.

See, you're finding animus where it isn't. As I said, if you lay it down, I'll treat you and save your life. I just won't have sympathy for you. But you'll never know it. Not even in a million years.
 
Apollyon said:
Why don't you just address me? You make it sound so sanitized - just like "standing on the street corner, minding my own business" - "I choose two-wheeled transportation", with the hyperbolic "never...in a million years". Do you deny statistics? And, although that is a problem (being cut off, intentionally or unintentionally), how often is that the cause? And, if you would never think in a million years, how can it "always amaze you"? One or the other. Does "got what you deserved" get under your skin? It looks like it. However, what other way would you put it - "that's your lot". "That's what you get"?

It's like that link above about the Angels - they wear nothing protective, because they are up front. And, when they crash, they take it. No excuses. No wishy-washy "never in a million years" or the like. I had a guy who was an Angels chapter president who was s/p head injury a couple years before. He wasn't looking for pity, offered no excuses, and just took what happened to him.

The enclosed, 4-wheeled vehicle is the status quo. That's all there is to it. That is incontrovertible. It's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. That's what you get. If you choose to be much, much, much less protected, irrespective of even having contact with another vehicle, that is your choice. On it's face, that seems ill-advised. Even if you don't hit or get hit by another vehicle, if you hit some road débris, if you lose traction from a puddle or standing water, if you have a mechanical problem, if the sun gets in your eyes, if you get a bug in the eye, if you have a rock penetrate your safety goggles (true story) and you lose control, you are at a much higher risk of injury. It's like a bug with a chitin exoskeleton versus a fleshy mammal. Mammals get more injured because our skeleton is on the inside.

See, you're finding animus where it isn't. As I said, if you lay it down, I'll treat you and save your life. I just won't have sympathy for you. But you'll never know it. Not even in a million years.
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Anyone denying the statistics is a fool. But there's no need to be judgmental about it if people are making the decision rationally, and doing their best to be safe about it.

Ever eat fried chicken? I would never. And I won't have sympathy for anyone who does and has a heart attack. Ever go skiing? I never do, and would only if I were wrapped in pillows. Etcetera etcetera.

Choosing this one thing (that you minimize your risk in, and others choose not to) to rip on, frankly, seems a little ridiculous. And how about all that palliative medicine literature that seems to imply that the greatest gift from a physician is sympathy?
 
Angulimala said:
Anyone denying the statistics is a fool. But there's no need to be judgmental about it if people are making the decision rationally, and doing their best to be safe about it.

Ever eat fried chicken? I would never. And I won't have sympathy for anyone who does and has a heart attack. Ever go skiing? I never do, and would only if I were wrapped in pillows. Etcetera etcetera.

Choosing this one thing (that you minimize your risk in, and others choose not to) to rip on, frankly, seems a little ridiculous. And how about all that palliative medicine literature that seems to imply that the greatest gift from a physician is sympathy?
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What is the one thing that is ridiculous? I'm not clear. That it is less safe to be on a motorcycle? That's a pretty broad point - it's not like it's something rare or esoteric. And I don't see people with a full face helmet and neck to toe leathers that frequently AT ALL.

As far as no sympathy for people with CAD who lead a lifestyle that leads to it, it is a widely held belief across specialties that that is indeed "what you get". You would not, in any sense, be unique in that sentiment. As far as skiing, that fails, because no one - bar none - routinely travels by downhill (alpine) skiing, to get any place - it's only down, to go up, to go down again. People that travel on skis do it nordic (cross country). Much safer.

And, as far as palliation goes, trauma is acute; trust me, trust me, when you have an open tib-fib fx and grade 3 road rash, the Dilaudid I give you is going to mean infinitely, in the truest sense of the word, more than me saying, "I am sorry you feel so ill."
 
Apollyon said:
What is the one thing that is ridiculous? I'm not clear. That it is less safe to be on a motorcycle? That's a pretty broad point - it's not like it's something rare or esoteric. And I don't see people with a full face helmet and neck to toe leathers that frequently AT ALL.

As far as no sympathy for people with CAD who lead a lifestyle that leads to it, it is a widely held belief across specialties that that is indeed "what you get". You would not, in any sense, be unique in that sentiment. As far as skiing, that fails, because no one - bar none - routinely travels by downhill (alpine) skiing, to get any place - it's only down, to go up, to go down again. People that travel on skis do it nordic (cross country). Much safer.

And, as far as palliation goes, trauma is acute; trust me, trust me, when you have an open tib-fib fx and grade 3 road rash, the Dilaudid I give you is going to mean infinitely, in the truest sense of the word, more than me saying, "I am sorry you feel so ill."
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Ok, so the metaphors...what I'm trying to get at is exactly what I've already stated. There are other things that can cause you harm (besides motorcycling), and people do them. I feel bad when bad things happen to good people, and I expect that most people do too.

I'm not holding up the fatso who eats a pizza every night as my example of taking on risk, I'm saying you, as a presumably fit individual, eating fatty foods. Or how about smoking a cigar once a year? Those are activities that increase your risk for certain conditions, but you may still choose to engage in them.

And there's a hell of a lot in trauma care that's not acute...how about the weeks of languishing in the ICU and the meetings with desperate-eyed family members? I'll love the dilaudid, no doubt, but my wife might feel a lot better if she knew how much you cared for, sympathized with and empathized for me.

You're right that what you reap is what you sow, though. And I'm glad to hear that those leathered and fully helmeted people aren't the ones passing through your ED.
 
Apollyon, I didn't address you because my post was directed at an idea not a person. There are many people who say, "He deserved it." when a random act of the universe results in morbidity and mortality. I do not understand or agree with this way of thinking; no one person is in a position to decide whether someone deserves life or death. I also don't think it's okay to say, "Mr. X deserves to be a quad because he was driving drunk." or "This guy deserves lung CA b/c he smoked 40 years." Many that live deserve death, and many that die deserve life. Deserves got nothing to do with it. (LOTR, Unforgiven..) It is hubris to state that someone deserves his or her fate. Who are we to judge/understand these matters? There is enough death/illness in the world that I don't feel the need to "blame" anyone or anything for the bad things that happen. So a dude has an MI after eating cheeseburgers for 40 years? I still don't think children deserve to grow up without their father. It is an unfortunate act of the universe, yes there are risk factors, and we each decide what risks we are willing to take, but the idea any one person is in a position to determine that someone deserves to die is misguided imo. Peace.
 
Angulimala said:
And there's a hell of a lot in trauma care that's not acute...how about the weeks of languishing in the ICU and the meetings with desperate-eyed family members? I'll love the dilaudid, no doubt, but my wife might feel a lot better if she knew how much you cared for, sympathized with and empathized for me.
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But this is the EM forum. Trauma critical care is exactly as you state - or, as, when I was a premed, a doc said, "You babysit for 3 weeks and party when they move a finger". You're absolutely right. I can't empathize, though, by definition, if I haven't experienced it.

coldweatherblue said:
Apollyon, I didn't address you because my post was directed at an idea not a person. There are many people who say, "He deserved it." when a random act of the universe results in morbidity and mortality. I do not understand or agree with this way of thinking; no one person is in a position to decide whether someone deserves life or death. I also don't think it's okay to say, "Mr. X deserves to be a quad because he was driving drunk." or "This guy deserves lung CA b/c he smoked 40 years." Many that live deserve death, and many that die deserve life. Deserves got nothing to do with it. (LOTR, Unforgiven..) It is hubris to state that someone deserves his or her fate. Who are we to judge/understand these matters? There is enough death/illness in the world that I don't feel the need to "blame" anyone or anything for the bad things that happen. So a dude has an MI after eating cheeseburgers for 40 years? I still don't think children deserve to grow up without their father. It is an unfortunate act of the universe, yes there are risk factors, and we each decide what risks we are willing to take, but the idea any one person is in a position to determine that someone deserves to die is misguided imo. Peace.
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Wow, over-react much? Seriously? Saying "that's his lot" or, as the erstwhile poster above stated, "you reap what you sow" are not the same as "you - YOU - deserve to die!". There's a semantic difference about "deserving" something - one guy who goes to 26 years of school deserves to have some reward, including financial, just as, in the very same vein, the other guy that murders 3 people deserves, well, a needle in HIS vein. What is a reasonable expectation as a result of one's actions? Is being hit by a car on a bike an UNreasonable expectation? Unfortunately, it is not.

The OP asked for "cool stories". Do you know the last words of a redneck? "Wanna see something cool?"
 
From the standpoint of physics and pathology:

When riding a motorcycle, all you are is a very fast moving pedestrian.

Word up


MKA
 
If you were to skydive 2 times a day for a year, you would have just under a 1% chance of dying in that year. Same if you were to SCUBA dive 5 times a day for a year.

If you were to climb Mt. Everest, you'd have about a 3% chance of dying.

For cars, driving 10k miles gives you a 0.02% chance of a fatal accident.
For airplanes, flying for 50 hours gives you a 0.08% chance of a fatal accident.
For a motorcycle, driving 1k miles gives you a 0.07% chance of a fatal accident.

In 2006, the risk of death as a member of the US military in Iraq was 0.40% per year.

The numbers are a bit rough and result from a cursory Google search, but it paints the general picture. The point is, commuting to work on a motorcycle approaches the risk of commuting to work via parachute. Riding as a hobby approaches the risk of flying as a hobby.

No one can tell you if the risk is worth it to your and your family. You would be well advised to approach the subject with the same seriousness you would give an Everest attempt, jumping in the pilot's seat of a plane, or heading to Iraq for a bit.

I ride a motorcycle. Is it a safe decision? No. But I risk it. I know the statistics, I do what I can to mitigate the risks, and accept the chance that I may have a bad day. To me, at this point in my life, it's worth it. My attitude may change as my responsibility in life shifts beyond me and to a family but for now though, I'm willing to accept the risk for the fun and better parking.

As for sympathy, well that's a funny word. I feel sympathy for a soldier being deployed to war. Yet it would be hard to consider myself sympathetic toward a soldier complaining about having to deploy after voluntarily signing up for the military in a time of war. I think it's possible to have sympathy for someone while still feeling that they chose their fate...
 
We misunderstand each other, that is fine.. like I said, PEACE. The OP also asked who on here rides..

so.. fwiw, motorcycles are awesome. I will always love riding. Now I have a KX125 that I got back when I was 13 and a '77 KZ400 I got at 15. Done a bunch of work on both of them through the years, best thing about bikes is you can basically rebuild them in a half-day, haha. Grew up riding trails in the backwoods of my parent's property in Tennessee. did you know that at the top of fourth gear you can hydroplane a dirtbike >200 feet in waist high water? There is no amount of trouble a couple teenage boys with two-stroke dirtbikes can't get into.. I don't have my bikes out here in god-forsaken southern california, but every day I look forward to the autumn days back home riding two lane country roads with my girl on the back, watching the colored leaves fall from the sky as we ride beneath them.

current road bike:

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one day i hope to own something like this:

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accompanying it will be another Bavarian machine of similar vintage.. with four wheels.
 
I'll jump in and stand up for Apollyon from the motorcycle club, but I think what he's trying to say is that he's not going to empathize with you about your motorcycle injury when you knew the risks and did it anyway.

When it comes to badness in the ED (and we see people everyday in their darkest hours), the only way to go to work everyday and not dwell on profound misfortune is to recognize that you only have so much empathy to spread around and you have to use it sparingly for your own sake.

When I see a baby with a newly diagnosed congenital disease or a 20 yo kid who's DOA from a drunk driver or a nice lady with metastatic pancreatic cancer, it kinda knocks you back a few pegs.

I just can't feel the same way about somebody riding a motorcycle at highway speeds without a helmet or somebody with a 100 pack-year smoking history and a trach or somebody who's eaten themselves out of the range for a standard size hospital bed.

Now, of course, that doesn't change the level of care I render or the battery of tests I order to diagnose and treat, but it does change the way I become emotionally attached. Honestly, for the latter group, I feel bad for their friends and families, but I just don't feel bad for the stupid and self-injurious.
 
Grew up riding them. I love them.

I will never ride one. My child, until 18, will never ride one.
 
Everybody who has been in a fender-bender or minor car accident that they've driven away from, raise your hand.

Consider the fact that there are no "fender-benders" when a motorcycle is involved.

My perspective on this is skewed as someone who has a family which depends on me and used to really want to motorcycle but really lost the taste after regularly seeing motorcyclists killed and maimed on a daily basis. This included one of the docs in my group who only received a moderate maiming, fortunately.

I have reflected on all of the merits of riding a motorcycle, and they are indeed enticing. As is the high associated with cocaine (so I am told). I don't do that either.

If you are going to ride a motorcycle, for god's sake wear full leathers and a respectable helmet. It greatly increases the likelihood that our time together in my ED will be spent together while I sedating you while the orthopedics resident drills a traction pin through your busted femur rather than having a very sad end of life conversation with your grieving family members.
 
Well this thread has thoroughly convinced me not to get a bike. Thanks I guess 🙄 I've decided I'm saving my money for another year and getting this
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300 horsepower isn't cool, but 425 is😎
 
Nobody would fault you, just try to be safe in whatever you do. Hopefully, I'm still in one piece when I'm old and retired and might could be this guy:

OVERLAND PARK, KS— Eight days ago, retired Overland Park physician Dr. Rodney Lyles was on his motorcycle, en route to a relaxing ride through the hills of Texas. But his route and timing took him through Joplin, just after the killer tornado swept through town.

Lyles says that he realized immediately that he had to stay and help.

In the meantime... I will continue to ride motorcycles, white water raft in a kayak, smoke occasional cigars, learn to hang glide, continue mountain climbing, learn to ice climb, (have already given up sky diving and rock climbing) and continue to be hyper vigilant about mastering my skills, maximizing safety, and minimizing risk in whatever I do. When the good Lord sees fit to take me, hopefully I've had a full life and a reasonably long one at that. Hopefully I'll be able to teach any boys I might have the same attitude about safety and will slowly allow them to partake in certain recreational activities/sports as I see fit, but I'm not going to hire bodyguards to escort him everywhere he goes nor will I bubble wrap him when he goes to football practice either. It sounds like your mom is just trying to look out for you and physicians have very strong opinions on some of this stuff but informed decision making after education about all the associated risks is what life is all about. Pax Vobiscum.
 
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Angulimala said:
Anyone denying the statistics is a fool. But there's no need to be judgmental about it if people are making the decision rationally, and doing their best to be safe about it.

Ever eat fried chicken? I would never. And I won't have sympathy for anyone who does and has a heart attack. Ever go skiing? I never do, and would only if I were wrapped in pillows. Etcetera etcetera.

Choosing this one thing (that you minimize your risk in, and others choose not to) to rip on, frankly, seems a little ridiculous. And how about all that palliative medicine literature that seems to imply that the greatest gift from a physician is sympathy?
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It's not ridiculous. What's ridiculous is that my tax dollars pay for the person hurt in a motorcycle accident, or the smoker who gets lung cancer etc. etc.. Now THAT'S ridiculous. Sure, you're going to ask me how do *my* tax dollars pay for the insured, etc. Okay, then in addition to tax dollars, my premiums for insurance for any number of items (health, car liability) go up based on the actuarial report that figures in the self-injurious and self-indulgent.
 
bulgethetwine said:
It's not ridiculous. What's ridiculous is that my tax dollars pay for the person hurt in a motorcycle accident, or the smoker who gets lung cancer etc. etc.. Now THAT'S ridiculous. Sure, you're going to ask me how do *my* tax dollars pay for the insured, etc. Okay, then in addition to tax dollars, my premiums for insurance for any number of items (health, car liability) go up based on the actuarial report that figures in the self-injurious and self-indulgent.
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Le sigh. I tire of arguing with libertarians.

Sorry, bud. You're in a civilized society; you pay and are part of pools for all sorts of things, from roads and police to insurance.

I only ride a bicycle, but I still breathe all the $hit that comes out of your combustion engine. Part of coexisting is taking the hit for stuff you didn't do and never wanted.
 
bulgethetwine said:
It's not ridiculous. What's ridiculous is that my tax dollars pay for the person hurt in a motorcycle accident, or the smoker who gets lung cancer etc. etc.. Now THAT'S ridiculous. Sure, you're going to ask me how do *my* tax dollars pay for the insured, etc. Okay, then in addition to tax dollars, my premiums for insurance for any number of items (health, car liability) go up based on the actuarial report that figures in the self-injurious and self-indulgent.
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Who in this thread ever started defending health care services utilization rendered to the uninsured? Pointing fingers at motorcyclists for your auto and health insurance premium angst is like shooting a BB gun at an airplane hoping to alter its course. There's only roughly 7 million motorcycles even registered in this country, compared to 254 million cars, which do you think affects your premiums more? How may of those riders are actually uninsured where your taxes would even pay anything? Nobody is arguing that we have a healthcare crisis but blaming all the motorcyclists out there for your increasing premiums reminds me of "burn the witch" sound bytes from Monty Python's Holy Grail.

You're more likely to get an auto premium hike from bumping into grandma while talking on your cell phone.
 
Cmaj7th said:
I know this question is not EM residency related, nor am I a medical student or EM resident, but I'm curious as to what your thoughts on motorcycles are. How many bike related accidents do you see? Is it just asking for trouble or do you think you can ride responsibly? And who on here rides?

I ask because a few of my friends who recently got back from the Army have run off and bought bikes. They go on and on about how fun it is and how I should get one. My mom's a doc though and she said I was an absolute idiot. Wanted to see if this is a shared opinion or my mom just being a mom.
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You asked. Many people answered.

Cmaj7th said:
Well this thread has thoroughly convinced me not to get a bike. Thanks I guess 🙄
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And that's your response, along with the roll eyes. Whatever.

If you want it, get it. Put your hair into the wind, enjoy the scenery, and try not to pile it up.

But if you are asking for advice and opinions, you are rankly disrespectful if you scoff at those offered, that you specifically requested, especially because you didn't state a preconceived notion in your OP.
 
bulgethetwine said:
It's not ridiculous. What's ridiculous is that my tax dollars pay for the person hurt in a motorcycle accident, or the smoker who gets lung cancer etc. etc.. Now THAT'S ridiculous. Sure, you're going to ask me how do *my* tax dollars pay for the insured, etc. Okay, then in addition to tax dollars, my premiums for insurance for any number of items (health, car liability) go up based on the actuarial report that figures in the self-injurious and self-indulgent.
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yeah, those selfish, cancer-stricken bastards.. don't they know how much happier you would be if they just died and left you with less taxes?

this thread makes me love motorcycles..
 
The biggest single reason I quit riding after some 25 yrs on motorcycles is not the fear of death or permanent disability. It is the simple fact that if I have even a minor accident and break an ankle or wrist - I CANT WORK FOR 4-6 WEEKS. Ive got too many people depending on my income -ie family. There is no real short term disability for this type of injury. Most groups dont cover this under" sick days". It would amount to a significant loss of income.
 
I remember when Apollyon seemed to have a different attitude about this stuff:


Apollyon said:
Why does anyone do anything with risk? Are they all ******ed? Are firefighters on the Rescue truck ******ed? Are SWAT officers ******ed? Are cardiac surgeons ******ed (considering they get stuck about 5 times per case, with blood exposure)?

Why do anesthesiologists race motorcycles? Are they ******ed?
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Apollyon said:
You do realize that your post makes you sound like you are petulant and oppositional, right?
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Haven't got much to say to this.. no harm meant by my posts, like I said before, I'm sure we just misunderstand each other. Riding on deserted two-lane roads through the eastern Tennessee countryside is a place where I've gotten a lot of peace of mind over the years, I hope everyone, regardless of their views on bikes, has somewhere they can find the same.
 
I grew up buying/selling wrecked cars as part of my families business.

I love riding the woods on a four wheeler.. where I am in control and rarely have other traffic to deal with. No alcohol of course.

I would love to ride a bike, but I just wont do it. I've seen too many wrecked ones sale and too many people come in the ER... wifes best friends brother was killed a few months ago on one. My concern is not me riding the bike, its everyone else around me.

I will not fault someone for riding as long as they understand the risks.. and most educated people do.

I go the two seater roadster route. Not quite the open concept of the bike, but still some wind in the hair...
 
Apollyon said:
You asked. Many people answered.



And that's your response, along with the roll eyes. Whatever.

If you want it, get it. Put your hair into the wind, enjoy the scenery, and try not to pile it up.

But if you are asking for advice and opinions, you are rankly disrespectful if you scoff at those offered, that you specifically requested, especially because you didn't state a preconceived notion in your OP.
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I apologize if you thought I was being disrespectful as that was not my intent. But I am confused as to why you thought I was scoffing, I said this thread had discouraged me from buying a bike and that was me being honest. Am I particularly happy about the change of heart? No, I'd been saving for one for a long time and it's a disappointment. But I think it's obvious that I valued the opinions of those who took the time to post enough to decide not to get one.

I made this thread to get opinions from people in the know but it was also meant to be lighthearted and fun. I do not know where all this animosity came from 😕
 
Again I hope you see that I was not trying to come off that way, it was more of a reluctant "you told me what I didnt want to hear!" kind of thanks not meant to be sarcastic or disrespectful.
 
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