MR-guided radiotherapy

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Krukenberg

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Thought it would be good to talk about new toys in rad onc's future. I've read all the hype about viewray and Elekta's MR-linac. What's the current thinking among radiation oncologists about MRGRT? Game-changer for moving tumors/organs or marginal improvement? Will Viewray's tech be antiquated once Elekta's MR-linac goes commercial?


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Warning: strong opinion ahead.

Marginal improvement which will show no benefit in clinical trials, will not be reimbursed by payers, and will not have any substantial impact in our field. In my opinion, another example of academic radiation oncology taking a cue from industry and following their lead rather than asking the important clinical questions to which we need answers. It's impressive technology, no doubt, I just can't see it making any real difference clinically in the vast, vast majority of patients. Timing-wise, as well, it's absolutely terrible: Right when we're worried about de-escalating the cost of care, we have a technology which offers unproven benefits with a substantial cost increase. Has there been any real comparison data yet, or just "look what we did, ain't it great?"-type papers? I haven't seen any.

We have this now but no real information about response/dosing/fractionation/methodology of concurrent RT and immunotherapy to take advantage of the abscopal effect? We don't know how to try and treat patients with rectal cancer definitively with chemoRT and avoid surgery? No repeat dose escalation trial for esophageal cancer? Any randomized data for de-escalation of HPV+ oropharyngeal cancer tx? I know we're in the process of figuring these things out- at least with rectal ca, HPV+ H+N ca, and RT and immunotherapy, but we're clearly very behind the ball on immunotherapy and HPV+ H+N ca. I wisht the academic leaders of the field focused more on these clinical questions rather than toys. In the recent past, dramatic changes such as IMRT, IGRT, and SBRT really did transform our field, so I understand the desire to find the next new sexy tool, but I don't see anything on the horizon that is going to do that, MR-guided RT included.

I hope to be proven wrong some day, as it is cool tech, but I'm not hopeful.
 
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I'm an Elekta fanboy in general, but I think this so-called Atlantic machine is stupid. I think better future gains will be shortening treatment times (e.g. Varian's HyperArc system) rather than better image guidance. Also, unlike protons there doesn't seem to be "enhanced" billing for linac based MRs that would justify the expense. Finally, I heard that Atlantic can't fit into conventional vaults but not sure if that's true.

Still, my opinion may be in the minority as Elekta has multiple departments lined up.

The most interesting thing is how they mitigated/accounted for secondary electron path disruption with a 1.5 T magnet.
 
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Warning: strong opinion ahead.

Marginal improvement which will show no benefit in clinical trials, will not be reimbursed by payers, and will not have any substantial impact in our field. In my opinion, another example of academic radiation oncology taking a cue from industry and following their lead rather than asking the important clinical questions to which we need answers. It's impressive technology, no doubt, I just can't see it making any real difference clinically in the vast, vast majority of patients. Timing-wise, as well, it's absolutely terrible: Right when we're worried about de-escalating the cost of care, we have a technology which offers unproven benefits with a substantial cost increase. Has there been any real comparison data yet, or just "look what we did, ain't it great?"-type papers? I haven't seen any.

We have this now but no real information about response/dosing/fractionation/methodology of concurrent RT and immunotherapy to take advantage of the abscopal effect? We don't know how to try and treat patients with rectal cancer definitively with chemoRT and avoid surgery? No repeat dose escalation trial for esophageal cancer? Any randomized data for de-escalation of HPV+ oropharyngeal cancer tx? I know we're in the process of figuring these things out- at least with rectal ca, HPV+ H+N ca, and RT and immunotherapy, but we're clearly very behind the ball on immunotherapy and HPV+ H+N ca. I wisht the academic leaders of the field focused more on these clinical questions rather than toys. In the recent past, dramatic changes such as IMRT, IGRT, and SBRT really did transform our field, so I understand the desire to find the next new sexy tool, but I don't see anything on the horizon that is going to do that, MR-guided RT included.

I hope to be proven wrong some day, as it is cool tech, but I'm not hopeful.

Unfortunately, this may play out similar to protons... a nuclear arms race (literally) for marketing the "latest and greatest" technology.
 
I'm an Elekta fanboy in general, but I think this so-called Atlantic machine is stupid. I think better future gains will be shortening treatment times (e.g. Varian's HyperArc system) rather than better image guidance. Also, unlike protons there doesn't seem to be "enhanced" billing for linac based MRs that would justify the expense. Finally, I heard that Atlantic can't fit into conventional vaults but not sure if that's true.

Still, my opinion may be in the minority as Elekta has multiple departments lined up.

The most interesting thing is how they mitigated/accounted for secondary electron path disruption with a 1.5 T magnet.

Definitely a feat of engineering at the very least! It's kind of incomprehensible that billing for MRI guidance wouldn't be more than conventional image guidance...


Would the certainty of how full the bladder/rectum is or respiratory gating based on direct visualization of the tumor not reduce normal tissue irradiation? Is it a question of clinical meaningfulness?

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I still have high hopes for a particle machine that will cost something around 10 million dollars and will be installable in typical Linac bunkers (or slightly bigger ones).

I do not want special reimbursement for particle treatment. This is not the case in Europe and I truly believe that the best place to put protons or other particles is in the hands of physicians that treat with photons on a daily basis.
 
We have a ViewRay in our department. While it is possible to ask some interesting imaging questions, no gains will be made due to the cobalt source. I have stood at the machine many times and thought there is less movement in the abdomen and pelvis then I assumed. Each one of the fractions takes a minimum of a half hour and any gains by decreasing the margin (which we do not do yet) are lost by the 1.25 MeV beam. We have looked at plans at every different site and everything I have seen is "acceptable" (according to the faculty) but slightly worse. As a side note I have seen a nice skin reaction in a prostate patient on the ViewRay. It is still an important research modality and maybe there is gains to be made by adaptive planning, assessing tumor response, or somehow checking normal tissue injury during treatment.
 
We have a ViewRay in our department. While it is possible to ask some interesting imaging questions, no gains will be made due to the cobalt source. I have stood at the machine many times and thought there is less movement in the abdomen and pelvis then I assumed. Each one of the fractions takes a minimum of a half hour and any gains by decreasing the margin (which we do not do yet) are lost by the 1.25 MeV beam. We have looked at plans at every different site and everything I have seen is "acceptable" (according to the faculty) but slightly worse. As a side note I have seen a nice skin reaction in a prostate patient on the ViewRay. It is still an important research modality and maybe there is gains to be made by adaptive planning, assessing tumor response, or somehow checking normal tissue injury during treatment.
Good points. Gamma Knife to the skull is a lot more forgiving with a Co-60 source than trying to treat deeper targets in the abd/pelvis.
 
As a side note I have seen a nice skin reaction in a prostate patient on the ViewRay.

Could you elaborate on your experience? The ViewRay presentations at ASTRO suggested minimal skin toxicity due to using IMRT in contrast to 2 or 4 field techniques with Co-60.
 
Unfortunately, this may play out similar to protons... a nuclear arms race (literally) for marketing the "latest and greatest" technology.

Yep, I'm sure we'll see this as well, departments making it sound like they're the only ones able to hit a target while the rest of us are just monkeying around in the dark. I remember the Tomotherapy ads from the St. Louis area about a decade ago...
 
The skin toxicity is definitely minimal. We had one person with significant darkening of the skin treated for prostate cancer (this is something I never saw with rapid arc) and another pelvic case that needed replanning because half way through the guy started having an "unexpectedly bad skin reaction". These were rare events but I just making the point that unless you are getting a machine with micro MLCs and >1.25 MeV beam you probably are not going to improve the therapeutic ratio. Currently I view this as a confidence booster that we get to see what we treat and a valid research mechanism that may or may not lead to advances in prediction of tumor response and normal tissue toxicity.
 
The skin toxicity is definitely minimal. We had one person with significant darkening of the skin treated for prostate cancer (this is something I never saw with rapid arc) and another pelvic case that needed replanning because half way through the guy started having an "unexpectedly bad skin reaction". These were rare events but I just making the point that unless you are getting a machine with micro MLCs and >1.25 MeV beam you probably are not going to improve the therapeutic ratio. Currently I view this as a confidence booster that we get to see what we treat and a valid research mechanism that may or may not lead to advances in prediction of tumor response and normal tissue toxicity.

Do you think then that an MR-linac system has more potential?


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Currently I view this as a confidence booster that we get to see what we treat and a valid research mechanism that may or may not lead to advances in prediction of tumor response and normal tissue toxicity.

Really? "Confidence booster?"

I would view it as inferior technology which does exactly what IMRT does, but worse.



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Really? "Confidence booster?"

I would view it as inferior technology which does exactly what IMRT does, but worse.



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There's probably some areas where MRI guidance might actually help, such as SBRT for random upper GI areas where motion (or deformation) may be a big issue. But I agree, seems like a waste for nearly all rad onc places. Really something should only be in academic centers in my opinion.

Also my understand was that the MRI-linacs need ginormous vaults?
 
There's probably some areas where MRI guidance might actually help, such as SBRT for random upper GI areas where motion (or deformation) may be a big issue. But I agree, seems like a waste for nearly all rad onc places. Really something should only be in academic centers in my opinion.

Also my understand was that the MRI-linacs need ginormous vaults?

This press release says the bunker specs are "similar" to conventional linacs. https://www.elekta.com/pressrelease...-guided-radiation-therapy-system-in-2017.html


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Would you mind explaining why? In my experience, Elekta's software and service is terrible.

Originally, we went with Elekta because they gave us the best deal for buying multiple accelerators. In our region, Varian already had a large market share and Elekta gave us the better deal.

In general, their machines have been very reliable with high up time. They also have several engineers in our area who can come at a moments notice. I also much prefer MOSAIQ to Aria, but that is a personal preference.

Finally, their machines are pretty modular and can be easily upgraded.


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That may be true, but with the exit of companies like Siemens and Phillips out of radiation therapy, Elekta is the only company keeping Varian from a veritable monopoly

I would love to like them, for that very reason.

Originally, we went with Elekta because they gave us the best deal for buying multiple accelerators. In our region, Varian already had a large market share and Elekta gave us the better deal.

In general, their machines have been very reliable with high up time. They also have several engineers in our area who can come at a moments notice. I also much prefer MOSAIQ to Aria, but that is a personal preference.

Finally, their machines are pretty modular and can be easily upgraded.

I've heard mixed opinions on their reliability, but my personal experience has been negative. Maybe it's dependent on the quality of the service from the local engineer.

The most recent version of MOSAIQ greatly improved the CBCT review interface, so I'll give them credit there.
 
This just so happens to be my area of academic interest and I have some experience with both of these machines. I do my best to stay neutral when it comes to one machine versus the other. I don't know if I'll have many on this forum agree with many of my views on MR-RT. That's okay with me.

The core issue is that radiation oncology depends on devices instead of pharmaceuticals. Unlike pharmaceuticals, these devices get approved through the FDA substantial equivalence pathway, which means that the ViewRay or Elekta products only have to be "substantially equivalent" (i.e. deliver radiation therapy at least as well as its existing predicate device) to be approved. These devices are built by these companies and then sold without a clear and known benefit. It's up to us to decide what it might be good for and hopefully prove it. If the devices had to undergo full testing for safety and efficacy for specific indications, like new medications, these new machines would likely not exist, be delayed many years, and be far more expensive to recoup the costs of pre-clinical studies. It would even be hard to make the newer treatment machines at all--like a Truebeam or a Versa HD, as they would all have to demonstrate their efficacy and safety in large patient cohorts. You can argue that this should not be the case--that these new radiation devices should have a proven indication for use before release. While it's a separate argument, I think it's a good and interesting argument to have.

Whenever something is novel like this, it's easy to be a nay-sayer. The technology is brand new. Cone beam CT was widely panned when it was first released as a product back in 2003. Interestingly, I'm not aware of any randomized data showing that CBCT improves outcomes. There are some retrospective series that suggest it. Regardless, I think we all use it for selected indications. Some trial protocols mandate its use. The evolution in image guidance allowed for newer therapies to occur. It's hard to know whether CBCT ever improved outcomes directly, but it's a technology that allows improved image guidance and that has allowed for improved outcomes. Certainly CBCT today is far better than CBCT was in early 2000. Varian, who actually has an MRI product manager at conferences (for what product, exactly?), claims that MR-RT is a stupid idea because they're going to make CBCT look even better than it does today. That's fine by me--4D CBCT is cool technology, though it really only works in lungs so far to my knowledge. Maybe there are other tricks up their sleeve.

In my mind, CBCT is a mature technology with wide acceptance, but it has taken over 10 years. I think MR-RT will be the same. I put the MR-RT start date at 2014 since ViewRay was cleared in 2012, but it wasn't treating then to my knowledge. It's my belief that in another 10 years, we'll all accept it for selected indications. It may not make its way into every private practice the way CBCT has since it's easy to just bolt on a kV source and an EPID on an existing linac. But, I suspect it'll be fairly widespread within academics. It's the challenge for people like myself to find good things to do with it. I have a lot of such ideas. The easiest most compelling ideas are moving structure targeting and easy online adaptive radiotherapy. The adaptive portion is just now beginning to happen with the latest ViewRay software, but was previously quite labor intensive to make it to prime time. It still is--you've got VU in Amsterdam basically taking an hour per patient and adapting everyone's therapy every day--but this will improve with better software and workflows.

Currently there is no billing code for MR guidance, which is unfortunate given its cost. Fortunately, it is much cheaper than protons--the machines retail at somewhere around $5-$10 million + vault costs--which isn't crazy compared to something like a Truebeam Edge which is somewhere around $3 million. I'm not clear that single gantry proton solutions can be had for less than $20 million, though there's certainly a lot of downward pressure on costs and that's a very moving target with a lot of startup companies promising questionable cheaper products. A lot of people are shocked to hear that IBA and ProBeam proton systems are upwards of $120 million. To me, MR-linacs and protons aren't even in the same league when it comes to cost. The only issue is that protons have their own reimbursement codes and MR-linacs don't. This does make the financial justification/business model for MR-linac difficult in the current environment. When CBCT had its own reimbursement codes, that really drove proliferation especially in private practice. This may make MR-RT an academic device or one for hospital systems to brag about/try to draw patients with for the near future.

I agree with mcrue. Cobalt is not a great way to deliver RT. The MLCs are 1 cm width on the ViewRay device. MR-guidance is allowing me to do some cool stuff with image guidance, but I'm not sure it's letting me do anything I couldn't do with fiducials and a respiratory tracking system. When I want to be tight with MR guidance, I want to be very tight, and I need a plan that will also be very tight. Still, I emphasize that this is just the beginning. ViewRay is planning to release a linac upgrade to their systems with narrower MLC widths and make themselves a true MR-linac solution. Will the Elekta system still make them obsolete? It depends. The Elekta system has a real 1.5T Philips MR system under the hood, which might allow for better imaging. However, the ViewRay system has been treating patients for well over two years now and is the more mature technology from a software standpoint. Who knows what the actual real life performance of the two systems will look like.

As it stands, both machines have serious vault considerations. The cobalt system needs shielding as a cobalt room--for us that was a significant cost to upgrade from a linac vault. The Elekta system is big and has its own vault considerations. I can't be more specific because I don't know how much of what I know is still considered proprietary.

As for skin toxicity, secondary electron effects on dose distributions due to magnetic fields are real on both devices. There is plenty of data to demonstrate that this exists at both 0.35T and 1.5T field strengths. While it's easy to demonstrate the potential overdosing of skin with one or two beams, the reality is that with many beam angles or arcs and IMRT based planning, the effect is largely mitigated. If anyone wants to review that further, I can pull papers, as these effects have been widely modeled by numerous MR-RT groups.
 
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This just so happens to be my area of academic interest and I have some experience with both of these machines. I do my best to stay neutral when it comes to one machine versus the other. I don't know if I'll have many on this forum agree with many of my views on MR-RT. That's okay with me.

The core issue is that radiation oncology depends on devices instead of pharmaceuticals. Unlike pharmaceuticals, these devices get approved through the FDA substantial equivalence pathway, which means that the ViewRay or Elekta products only have to be "substantially equivalent" (i.e. deliver radiation therapy at least as well as its existing predicate device) to be approved. These devices are built by these companies and then sold without a clear and known benefit. It's up to us to decide what it might be good for and hopefully prove it. If the devices had to undergo full testing for safety and efficacy for specific indications, like new medications, these new machines would likely not exist, be delayed many years, and be far more expensive to recoup the costs of pre-clinical studies. It would even be hard to make the newer treatment machines at all--like a Truebeam or a Versa HD, as they would all have to demonstrate their efficacy and safety in large patient cohorts. You can argue that this should not be the case--that these new radiation devices should have a proven indication for use before release. While it's a separate argument, I think it's a good and interesting argument to have.

Whenever something is novel like this, it's easy to be a nay-sayer. The technology is brand new. Cone beam CT was widely panned when it was first released as a product back in 2003. Interestingly, I'm not aware of any randomized data showing that CBCT improves outcomes. There are some retrospective series that suggest it. Regardless, I think we all use it for selected indications. Some trial protocols mandate its use. The evolution in image guidance allowed for newer therapies to occur. It's hard to know whether CBCT ever improved outcomes directly, but it's a technology that allows improved image guidance and that has allowed for improved outcomes. Certainly CBCT today is far better than CBCT was in early 2000. Varian, who actually has an MRI product manager at conferences (for what product, exactly?), claims that MR-RT is a stupid idea because they're going to make CBCT look even better than it does today. That's fine by me--4D CBCT is cool technology, though it really only works in lungs so far to my knowledge. Maybe there are other tricks up their sleeve.

In my mind, CBCT is a mature technology with wide acceptance, but it has taken over 10 years. I think MR-RT will be the same. I put the MR-RT start date at 2014 since ViewRay was cleared in 2012, but it wasn't treating then to my knowledge. It's my belief that in another 10 years, we'll all accept it for selected indications. It may not make its way into every private practice the way CBCT has since it's easy to just bolt on a kV source and an EPID on an existing linac. But, I suspect it'll be fairly widespread within academics. It's the challenge for people like myself to find good things to do with it. I have a lot of such ideas. The easiest most compelling ideas are moving structure targeting and easy online adaptive radiotherapy. The adaptive portion is just now beginning to happen with the latest ViewRay software, but was previously quite labor intensive to make it to prime time. It still is--you've got VU in Amsterdam basically taking an hour per patient and adapting everyone's therapy every day--but this will improve with better software and workflows.

Currently there is no billing code for MR guidance, which is unfortunate given its cost. Fortunately, it is much cheaper than protons--the machines retail at somewhere around $5-$10 million + vault costs--which isn't crazy compared to something like a Truebeam Edge which is somewhere around $3 million. I'm not clear that single gantry proton solutions can be had for less than $20 million, though there's certainly a lot of downward pressure on costs and that's a very moving target with a lot of startup companies promising questionable cheaper products. A lot of people are shocked to hear that IBA and ProBeam proton systems are upwards of $120 million. To me, MR-linacs and protons aren't even in the same league when it comes to cost. The only issue is that protons have their own reimbursement codes and MR-linacs don't. This does make the financial justification/business model for MR-linac difficult in the current environment. When CBCT had its own reimbursement codes, that really drove proliferation especially in private practice. This may make MR-RT an academic device or one for hospital systems to brag about/try to draw patients with for the near future.

I agree with mcrue. Cobalt is not a great way to deliver RT. The MLCs are 1 cm width on the ViewRay device. MR-guidance is allowing me to do some cool stuff with image guidance, but I'm not sure it's letting me do anything I couldn't do with fiducials and a respiratory tracking system. When I want to be tight with MR guidance, I want to be very tight, and I need a plan that will also be very tight. Still, I emphasize that this is just the beginning. ViewRay is planning to release a linac upgrade to their systems with narrower MLC widths and make themselves a true MR-linac solution. Will the Elekta system still make them obsolete? It depends. The Elekta system has a real 1.5T Philips MR system under the hood, which might allow for better imaging. However, the ViewRay system has been treating patients for well over two years now and is the more mature technology from a software standpoint. Who knows what the actual real life performance of the two systems will look like.

As it stands, both machines have serious vault considerations. The cobalt system needs shielding as a cobalt room--for us that was a significant cost to upgrade from a linac vault. The Elekta system is big and has its own vault considerations. I can't be more specific because I don't know how much of what I know is still considered proprietary.

As for skin toxicity, secondary electron effects on dose distributions due to magnetic fields are real on both devices. There is plenty of data to demonstrate that this exists at both 0.35T and 1.5T field strengths. While it's easy to demonstrate the potential overdosing of skin with one or two beams, the reality is that with many beam angles or arcs and IMRT based planning, the effect is largely mitigated. If anyone wants to review that further, I can pull papers, as these effects have been widely modeled by numerous MR-RT groups.

Thanks for sharing your expertise! What is the current thinking on the cancers that would be safest to adaptively plan?


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Thanks for sharing your expertise! What is the current thinking on the cancers that would be safest to adaptively plan?

I don't want to dodge your question, but the reality is: throw something out there! Odds are it's either already being studied or it soon will be :)
 
Not MR, but looks like Stanford is going to build a carbon ion accelerator. http://med.stanford.edu/news/all-ne...e-on-nations-first-hadron-therapy-center.html


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My understanding was that carbon ions were similar to Protons with a sharper bragg-peak. Am I horribly misinformed or something?
What is all this about "burst of dose" within the tumor, and treating extensive metastatic disease?

A quick scan shows an increase in BED but more dose distribution past the bragg-peak. I get dose escalating by increasing BED but how is this going to limit toxicity?
 
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My understanding was that carbon ions were similar to Protons with a sharper bragg-peak. Am I horribly misinformed or something?
What is all this about "burst of dose" within the tumor, and treating extensive metastatic disease?

A quick scan shows an increase in BED but more dose distribution past the bragg-peak. I get dose escalating by increasing BED but how is this going to limit toxicity?

You're confusing marketing speak with actual clinical information. Her quote implies, as all of those with advanced, unproven technology like to imply, that we're treating with ancient, barely-functioning machines out here that aren't doing any good. I haven't seen a large metastatic deposit I couldn't treat with photons, so I have no idea what she's talking about.
 
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My understanding was that carbon ions were similar to Protons with a sharper bragg-peak. Am I horribly misinformed or something?
What is all this about "burst of dose" within the tumor, and treating extensive metastatic disease?

A quick scan shows an increase in BED but more dose distribution past the bragg-peak. I get dose escalating by increasing BED but how is this going to limit toxicity?

What is this science you speak of, you blasphemist! This is Stanford... Do you remember the Cyberknife? Now they have something newer and awesomer!
 
I'll believe it when i see it! it lost credibility when I read "VA". Back in my medschool days the local VA claimed it would "soon" have a building up to provide more room for critical care. Last I heard they had not even broken ground yet, nobody has heard of the plan since. Anybody who has ever worked at the VA knows how soul-crushing of a place that is. The amount of red tape and paperpushing bean-counters is unbelievable. ever tried to get a VA ID or get fingerprinted? What is the difference between a VA nurse and a bullet? LMAO
 
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As a side note I have seen a nice skin reaction in a prostate patient on the ViewRay

Oh you can get a noticeable skin reaction with 6MV photons on a linac/IMRT. You need 1) a relatively thinner patient (you'd think fatter right?? No. A skinnier patient has less skin-to-target day to day variability causing IGRT-based setups to "focus" on the same lateral skin sites each day) and 2) aggressive rectal sparing via inverse optimization. You can literally create the shape of the guy's prostate in the shape of a gr 1 desquamation on the butt cheeks. I have never had a patient complain, only notice the reaction in the mirror or their wife says something.
 
Carbon ions have unpredictable or better say "largely unknown" biologic effects on normal and tumor tissue, which are very specific for different histologies.
Treatment planning systems cannot calculate for that yet.
 
Oh you can get a noticeable skin reaction with 6MV photons on a linac/IMRT. You need 1) a relatively thinner patient (you'd think fatter right?? No. A skinnier patient has less skin-to-target day to day variability causing IGRT-based setups to "focus" on the same lateral skin sites each day) and 2) aggressive rectal sparing via inverse optimization. You can literally create the shape of the guy's prostate in the shape of a gr 1 desquamation on the butt cheeks. I have never had a patient complain, only notice the reaction in the mirror or their wife says something.

there is no such thing as G1 desquamation (review your CTCAE manual)
 
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