Mr. Steven Salzberg looking down on O.D.s

[randomusername]

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everyone makes mistakes, those who had poorer training such as some newer DO school and tiny AOA programs probably make more, your point?

Seeing as you have no proof of that, my aforementioned point still remains valid until proven otherwise. So, your point?

 

[ProtossCarrier]

Seeing as you have no proof of that, my aforementioned point still remains valid until proven otherwise. So, your point?

Go look up some research about rate of complications in surgery between small community centers and big academic centers.

 

[randomusername]

Go look up some research about rate of complications in surgery between small community centers and big academic centers.

Burden of proof is on your shoulders my good man, not mine. Make sure whatever you dig up mentions that the lower-ranking hospitals/centers are either DO-hospitals or that it makes note that many of the mistakes are DO-made.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Anybody else catch this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40096673/ns/health-health_care/?gt1=43001

You'll NEVER guess where he did med school and residency at....
UC-SD and Harvard, respectively (http://www2.massgeneral.org/ortho/hand/RingCV.pdf). I just thought it "funny" since those are the types of places that Salzberg wants his docs to come from to ensure the best care possible. And yes, I realize that in most regards this guy is a BA as far as his career goes and all blame wasn't his, but still.

Not only did he own up to his mistake but he made it public. Kudos to him.

Are you trying to insinuate that because he made a single error, this surgeon is a worse doctor than some guy who trained at a no-name DO surgical program? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that or have anyone agree with you.

 

[ProtossCarrier]

Burden of proof is on your shoulders my good man, not mine. Make sure whatever you dig up mentions that the lower-ranking hospitals/centers are either DO-hospitals or that it makes note that many of the mistakes are DO-made.

Do I have to prove to you that earth orbit the sun too?

 

[randomusername]

Do I have to prove to you that earth orbit the sun too?

You know, this would have almost been clever if you didn't butcher the grammar and leave out "the." 👍

 

[randomusername]

Not only did he own up to his mistake but he made it public. Kudos to him.

Are you trying to insinuate that because he made a single error, this surgeon is a worse doctor than some guy who trained at a no-name DO surgical program? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that or have anyone agree with you.

Not what I'm trying to insinuate at all and I do respect the fact that he's potentially jeopardizing his career for the sake of making this public.
If you read the post after that I make it clear that my point was to demonstrate that even if you train at elite facilities, you can still make mistakes.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Lol, Carrier ... I'm waiting on these statistics too (make sure the data is significant, that community hospitals are defined, academic medical centers are defined, that there is a correlation between which ones are associated with DO programs, AND that this is somehow extrapolated to 'newer DO' programs).

Additionally, random was trying to make a pretty simple point:

Salzberg: 'When choosing a doctor, I want to best from the Ivory towers.'

Why? Because you assume this is where you get the best patient care, lowest chance of mistakes, etc.

Random: Example of a guy with all the right pedigree, CV that Salzberg wants to see, etc, and yet, still made an ENORMOUS mistake.

In my mind, this just kind of goes to show that Salzberg's initial logic was pretty faulty at best, and completely anecdotal at worse. For example, I'm positive this woman is worse off for having the wrong hand operated on. Granted, everyone makes mistakes, and I'm sure, all things considered, this guy is an excellent surgeon, but Random was just pointing out a funny little tidbit that showed some of the issues with generalizing all ivory towers as the best and a near guarantee that nothing can go wrong, AND the fact that these should be associated as one entity (MD) versus 'other.'

 

[ProtossCarrier]

I am not going to help you do your homework.

 

[thepoopologist]

I am not going to help you do your homework.

If you want to have a real internet argument then back up your claims. You don't tell us to do things when you are the one pulling stuff out of your ass.

While you are free to type what you want, it remains babble without sources.

 

[Cheshyre]

blurg

 

[JaggerPlate]

I am not going to help you do your homework.

I think the point was that you made the claim ... shouldn't you have to back it up? So ... your homework? I dunno, I think this is how this type of deal works.

 

[Dr Oops]

I am not going to help you do your homework.

The article states that multiple mistakes happened in order for this happen. Even in the hallowed hall of the MD. This is not a degradation of Mds but just an example of the fact that were all human, and that salzenger is a huge d bag.

You can go back under your bridge now, and play starcraft while ur model girlfriend watches you play and bench 400lbs at the same time.

 

[ProtossCarrier]

Let me give you all a hint, try the medicare website and compare a top academic hospital to a small community hospital. Of course you can also go search in any journal of surgery about outcome difference vs. volume.

http://data.medicare.gov/

 

[JaggerPlate]

Let me give you all a hint, try the medicare website and compare a top academic hospital to a small community hospital. Of course you can also go search in any journal of surgery about outcome difference vs. volume.

http://data.medicare.gov/

data.medicare.gov .... amazing.

Dude, again ... you're the one making the claims here, not us. Usually, this means that YOU need to be the one to back it up. People here aren't even necessarily disagreeing with you, we're just saying that if you're going to make blanket claims, back them up with something. Otherwise, it appears like you're just making statements off something you assume or some anecdotal presumption. This isn't good science. You know it, and we know it, and until you fire back with more than medicare.gov (you mine as well have linked google), it's going to continue to look like you're making baseless assumptions off some preconceived notion of DOs.

 

[thepoopologist]

Let me give you all a hint, try the medicare website and compare a top academic hospital to a small community hospital. Of course you can also go search in any journal of surgery about outcome difference vs. volume.

http://data.medicare.gov/

Patronizing prick. You look it up.


Let me give you an example with your own particular case:
A second year medical school student attending an MD granting medical school in NYC, with an interest in law and medicine, and a propensity for hanging out in the DO forums.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10187501&postcount=2
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=765701


Reminds me of : Handy388
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/member.php?u=185975
http://www.mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=11223


I like how this was emphasized

I go to a school with systems based 2nd year and full 2 years of basic science.

since Columbia is 1.5



Not the best research, but at least it gave some direct posts and an implication of something.

 

[ProtossCarrier]

I am actually a DO student going to NYCOM. I wish I could have gone to a school affilated with major academic centers. I just wanted to present some facts, but obviously this thread is getting increasingly hostile and took a very strange turn as of the post above.

 

[JaggerPlate]

^^ with regard to the above claim ...

I am at an allo school and in one of our business of medicine class RVU was discussed as a negative example.

(from the RVU board scores thread)

You're a pathetic troll.

 

[sideways]

 

[NYEMMED]

#1 Dont get caught in a lie... now you are completely discredited from anything..

#2 I think this deserved a re-post here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humayun_Chaudhry

Humayun Chaudry D.O. Graduate of NYCOM- President and CEO of the Federation of state medical boards (which is also in charge of the USMLE and MD licensure)

Major- US Air Force,Major and serving as a Flight Surgeon with the 732nd Airlift Squadron and as the Medical Operations Flight Commander for the 514th Aeromedical Staging Squadron (ASTS) of the 514th Air Mobility Wing

Former Commissioner of health for Suffolk County, NY

Voting member of the USMLE Composite committee

He is one of the most powerful Doctors in the United States below the surgeon general, controls the USMLE, Controls all of the state medical boards and licensures in the U.S., BTW his position also makes him in charge of all Doctors MD and DO, and he is a DO from NYCOM

 

[thepoopologist]

I am actually a DO student going to NYCOM. I wish I could have gone to a school affilated with major academic centers. I just wanted to present some facts, but obviously this thread is getting increasingly hostile and took a very strange turn as of the post above.

What hospitals is NYCOM affiliated with?

What lecture halls do 1st years and 2nd years attend?

Name an HVLA technique and describe how it's done.


...Probationary Status. Heh.

 

[MIAmedica]

hahaha well this blog and his response was fun to read after JUST receiving my acceptance into one of my top DO schools. oh wait... Seriously man, not cool. And this supposed 'response' and 'apology' are STILL flawed and with a tone of elitism. Why is this article still up on the Forbes website??

 

[vanbamm]

As a future DC seeing this- I hope it brings some light to the ideas DO/MD have about what we do- he was still quoting Still, and DO/MD are still pairing DC's with Palmer- a century ago.... I am glad to see you all stand up for each other though, that is great to see.

 

[TriagePreMed]

As a future DC seeing this- I hope it brings some light to the ideas DO/MD have about what we do- he was still quoting Still, and DO/MD are still pairing DC's with Palmer- a century ago.... I am glad to see you all stand up for each other though, that is great to see.

Problem is that Chiropractic still has a lot of questionable people and practices that are still in certain school's curriculum. If Chiropractic wants to become more mainstream, it needs to start setting standards that go around all schools. Chiropractic must also invest more in scientific studies and define their scope of practice. I still see Chiropractors claiming to be "neurologists" or able to treat equivalent to primary care.

 

[vanbamm]

Problem is that Chiropractic still has a lot of questionable people and practices that are still in certain school's curriculum. If Chiropractic wants to become more mainstream, it needs to start setting standards that go around all schools. Chiropractic must also invest more in scientific studies and define their scope of practice. I still see Chiropractors claiming to be "neurologists" or able to treat equivalent to primary care.

The failures or praciticing DC's are being corrected as chiropractic has moved onto evidence based treatment- due in part to the changes in insurance companies that will not reimburse without a full report as to why a treatment is being done and what supports it, and partly due to establishing better relationships with MD/DO's who will be more likely to refer to the DC who practices ethically and they feel can enhance care for a patient....The DC's and MD's that teach at my institution are all involved in research and present research to us to discuss and dissect...The way the schools go about their methods of teaching is not universal; and so that makes it important to those looking to become a DC to be careful where you go to school and make sure they employ doctors and staff that are active in their organizations, research and have a history of practicing...Perhaps some older DC's claim to have be specialists, but the generation now understands our role and how we can work with MD/DO's while staying within our scope of practice...we are more like dentists and podiatrists in that we are trained to identify and refer pathologies out of our scope of practice while treating the spine and it's related patholgies conservatively if they are not serious, as well as simply for maintenance in those who come in for alignment because they understand the importance of spinal health...typically these individuals are more educated about their health and have made it a priority to maintain it rather than seek treatment when they fall ill...but DC's can specialize in certain fields where they do residencies with MD's in neurology, radiology, and orthopedics...
as the healthcare system becomes more efficient and less corrupt (hopefully), the next generation of healthcare providers will be able to give patients the best care possible by working together on cases that call for it.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Well, with the recent Chiropractic scandal in England it seems to put into question what you are saying, but I'm willing to accept that changes are on the way. I hope that you and others will be able to move chiropractic into an evidence form of treatment, but I also hope you're able to recognize and jump ship if you discover this is not the case and Chiropractic is not taking that direction. I have no problem with other group of practitioners as long as patient safety and treatment efficacy are at the forefront, unless I become an orthopedist because I'll make bank correcting your mistakes

 

[vanbamm]

Well, with the recent Chiropractic scandal in England it seems to put into question what you are saying, but I'm willing to accept that changes are on the way. I hope that you and others will be able to move chiropractic into an evidence form of treatment, but I also hope you're able to recognize and jump ship if you discover this is not the case and Chiropractic is not taking that direction. I have no problem with other group of practitioners as long as patient safety and treatment efficacy are at the forefront, unless I become an orthopedist because I'll make bank correcting your mistakes

Europe is a horse of a different color...I am speaking of the United States..medicine is not globally universal, ask any doctor who has ever practiced in another country and came back to the US....I will never jump ship on chiropractic- just as I am sure a DO/MD would never jump ship...it isn't just the practice, each one of these fields is a belief system and a calling....as far as correcting chiropractic mistakes, perhaps, - but they will not be MINE and you be busy enough fixing those within the hospitals themselves post-surgery- as far as orthopedics go- good luck with that

 

[naus]

All the chiropractory in the world ain't going to save your ass when you have 3 rib fractures, a hemothorax and cardiac tamponade from a car accident.

You can sell your snake oil all you want, but don't diss modern Western medicine while doing so.

 

[vanbamm]

All the chiropractory in the world ain't going to save your ass when you have 3 rib fractures, a hemothorax and cardiac tamponade from a car accident.

You can sell your snake oil all you want, but don't diss modern Western medicine while doing so.

obviously.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The failures or praciticing DC's are being corrected as chiropractic has moved onto evidence based treatment- due in part to the changes in insurance companies that will not reimburse without a full report as to why a treatment is being done and what supports it, and partly due to establishing better relationships with MD/DO's who will be more likely to refer to the DC who practices ethically and they feel can enhance care for a patient....The DC's and MD's that teach at my institution are all involved in research and present research to us to discuss and dissect...The way the schools go about their methods of teaching is not universal; and so that makes it important to those looking to become a DC to be careful where you go to school and make sure they employ doctors and staff that are active in their organizations, research and have a history of practicing...Perhaps some older DC's claim to have be specialists, but the generation now understands our role and how we can work with MD/DO's while staying within our scope of practice...we are more like dentists and podiatrists in that we are trained to identify and refer pathologies out of our scope of practice while treating the spine and it's related patholgies conservatively if they are not serious, as well as simply for maintenance in those who come in for alignment because they understand the importance of spinal health...typically these individuals are more educated about their health and have made it a priority to maintain it rather than seek treatment when they fall ill...but DC's can specialize in certain fields where they do residencies with MD's in neurology, radiology, and orthopedics...
as the healthcare system becomes more efficient and less corrupt (hopefully), the next generation of healthcare providers will be able to give patients the best care possible by working together on cases that call for it.

1. I think DDS/DPMs would disagree that you are on their same level (and still below physicians - your words, not mine).

2. I haven't seen much evidence that the relationship between DO/MDs and DCs is getting any better. Frankly, I think it's because, contrary to what you say, the DC community isn't taking strides to make education evidence based and uniform. I know you've stated that your university is moving toward this model (which is a good thing), but I don't think many universities care to do this (mainly because they money/students keep coming ... so who cares)

3. I really don't think DCs specialize. If you think about it, spinal manipulation is what you practice ... and, to me, specialization above that doesn't really make sense. I actually think it's pretty dangerous for DCs to complete what they consider residencies and advertise as Neurological, Radiology, etc, experts. Frankly, it's confusing to patients ... and I think this merge into trying to specialize, advertising as 'family practitioners,' etc is precisely the reason why a. the specialty isn't coming to accept their role in health care and b. why newly minted DO/MDs will have very little (even less) incentives to refer to DCs.

Again though ... this is completely off topic for this thread.

 

[vanbamm]

1. I think DDS/DPMs would disagree that you are on their same level (and still below physicians - your words, not mine).

2. I haven't seen much evidence that the relationship between DO/MDs and DCs is getting any better. Frankly, I think it's because, contrary to what you say, the DC community isn't taking strides to make education evidence based and uniform. I know you've stated that your university is moving toward this model (which is a good thing), but I don't think many universities care to do this (mainly because they money/students keep coming ... so who cares)

3. I really don't think DCs specialize. If you think about it, spinal manipulation is what you practice ... and, to me, specialization above that doesn't really make sense. I actually think it's pretty dangerous for DCs to complete what they consider residencies and advertise as Neurological, Radiology, etc, experts. Frankly, it's confusing to patients ... and I think this merge into trying to specialize, advertising as 'family practitioners,' etc is precisely the reason why a. the specialty isn't coming to accept their role in health care and b. why newly minted DO/MDs will have very little (even less) incentives to refer to DCs.

Again though ... this is completely off topic for this thread.

totally off topic for the thread-everyone is entitled to their own beliefs-agreed, let's drop it.

 

[Cheshyre]

All the chiropractory in the world ain't going to save your ass when you have 3 rib fractures, a hemothorax and cardiac tamponade from a car accident.

You can sell your snake oil all you want, but don't diss modern Western medicine while doing so.

Wow, dude. Way to go nuts and give any unaffiliated observer a reason to believe that DOs are hyper-defensive lunatics. Lay off the caffeine.

 

[surag]

jesus vanbamm or whatever ur sig is. You're a real character for posting your stupid chiro vs doctor thread crap here. You've been banging your internet head over this over and over again and you felt diluting the value of this thread is worth it? I mean, I obviously understand the connection, but its an unnecessary comment to make. You clearly are itching for a "gotcha" moment and you felt you had it here. This is just ridiculous.

Finally, why is anyone paying attention to Forbes? If anyone pays attention to politics you'll know this was the same magazine that allowed nutjob Dinese D'souza to publish his bogus craptastic article on how Obama's father (whos from Kenya) somehow influenced Obama to be anti colonist and as a result is making socialist programs in the US. the article was bunk and stupid. It was flat out wrong. Regardless of your political beliefs you'd have to agree on its absurdity. If anything it tops the stupidity of this guy's article.

The point is, Forbes is notorious for shoddy and meaning less journalism (top 100 billionaires anyone?) that only little kids like to read for the rankings (so they can dream about being rich) or ignorant *****s read to reconfirm their own stupidity. The magazine is trash, its for people with a fetish for Imoutoftouchwithreality-porn. I'm glad the comments corrected him and he did offer a "apology" that was poorly worded and meaningless. I think he felt he could rest on his laurels for contributing to science-though I find his work to be average at best. I guess graduating with a BS in English and a minor in computer science is all you need to be a succesful bio-scientist that has offered almost zero in contributions to society other than a new software program (that mind you was not authored by him but those who work for him).