Ms. Indecisive

[sidalexis]

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Okay so I need some objective opinions. I’m VERY fortunate as to have multiple acceptances, but I am having trouble making the right decision. I really want to do clinical research as a physician (preferably cancer research) and I’m completing my graduate degree now. My top choices right now are VCU (comprehensive cancer center), UNC (top 20 research, but heavy primary care influence), Howard (where I’m doing my grad degree – DC means NIH and NCI exposure), and GW (who I’m crossing my fingers to hear back from soon and who also has a research track). Can anyone with offer any insight into which of these schools might best foster my academic medicine goals?

 

[TexasPhysician]

If you really want to do research as a physician, then you want to go to a more prestigious residency.....helps get you an academic posting to do research, etc. However you can get a great residency from any medical school. Step scores and grades trump everything else, so I'd choose the cheapest med school. You will have loans to pay back and academic/research jobs pay a lot less.

If you are just looking for exposure during medical school, I'd go with UNC.

 

[flip26]

Is money no object? I would go with the cheapest option because I don't believe that any one of those schools will facilitate your research goals more than any other school.

Is either VCU or UNC instate for you?

 

[sidalexis]

Yeah UNC is in-state. But I'm petitioning for in state tuition at VCU which would make them close in price. I just keep hearing that UNC is very primary care focused. I know that they get research $$, but I don't know how much exposure the med students get.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Out of those schools it seems to me that UNC has the highest access to research, if that's what you want to do.

EDIT: I wish you luck petitioning, but keep in mind that Virginia is next to impossible to establish residence without working as a non-student for a year (and paying taxes).

 

[87138]

Any "state" school is going to tout a "primary care" focus to some extent. They're funded by their state to an extent, and this is a de facto claim they have to make.

I can't speak for UNC, but my instincts here are that this "primary care focus" schpiel is definitely not something you should be worrying about.

If you're in-state at UNC, and it's well funded and a prestigious program, this seems like a no-brainer to me. Take the in-state tuition and run (if you're applying for MSTP on top of your degrees, the money issue is not so relevant).

 

[RySerr21]

She's been accepted
To many places
Miss Indecisive
Won't you make up your damn mind
She's in to research
But doesnt know where
Ms. Indecisive
OoOo make up your mind
Miss Indecisive

sung to the tune of "Ms Independent" by Neyo

 

[AdmiralChz]

She's been accepted
To many places
Miss Indecisive
Won't you make up your damn mind
She's in to research
But doesnt know where
Ms. Indecisive
OoOo make up your mind
Miss Indecisive

sung to the tune of "Ms Independent" by Neyo

You, sir, have too much time on your hands 😀. Well played.

 

[sidalexis]

She's been accepted
To many places
Miss Indecisive
Won't you make up your damn mind
She's in to research
But doesnt know where
Ms. Indecisive
OoOo make up your mind
Miss Indecisive

sung to the tune of "Ms Independent" by Neyo

Ha! You caught that 😀

 

[RySerr21]

You, sir, have too much time on your hands 😀. Well played.

This may be true. It beats doing school work tho. I'm still in spring break mode.

Ha! You caught that 😀

Of course. I actually wasnt sure if you did it on purpose or not, i just thought it was funny either way. Neyo is the ****! Of course my version is way better tho.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Any "state" school is going to tout a "primary care" focus to some extent. They're funded by their state to an extent, and this is a de facto claim they have to make.

I can't speak for UNC, but my instincts here are that this "primary care focus" schpiel is definitely not something you should be worrying about.

If you're in-state at UNC, and it's well funded and a prestigious program, this seems like a no-brainer to me. Take the in-state tuition and run (if you're applying for MSTP on top of your degrees, the money issue is not so relevant).

Agreed. Just because a school prides itself in primary care, doesn't mean you can't do anything else......

 

[drizzt3117]

I'd go with UNC. IIRC it has the highest research funding of any of the schools you are considering.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I dont really think theres a question about where you should go, but since you are...go to VCU, please.

 

[pathophys17]

Out of those schools it seems to me that UNC has the highest access to research, if that's what you want to do. quote]

Ditto

 

[sidalexis]

I dont really think theres a question about where you should go, but since you are...go to VCU, please.

I will see YOU at second look Mr. Chubbs.

There are some complicating factors that I left out b/c I wanted objective opinions. So I guess I'll wait on the financial aid packages and see. No merit to the DC schools for location?

 

[scarletgirl777]

Yeah UNC is in-state. But I'm petitioning for in state tuition at VCU which would make them close in price. I just keep hearing that UNC is very primary care focused. I know that they get research $$, but I don't know how much exposure the med students get.

Sometimes when top schools say they are primary care focused, they only mean in relation to other top schools. Also, it's easier for people to be primary care focused when they are going to state schools in-state. Finally, primarcy care and clinical research or research of any kind are not mutually exclusive.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I will see YOU at second look Mr. Chubbs.

There are some complicating factors that I left out b/c I wanted objective opinions. So I guess I'll wait on the financial aid packages and see. No merit to the DC schools for location?

😉

 

[drizzt3117]

I will see YOU at second look Mr. Chubbs.

There are some complicating factors that I left out b/c I wanted objective opinions. So I guess I'll wait on the financial aid packages and see. No merit to the DC schools for location?

Not really, unless you are going to work @ NIH during med school during the year, which would seem like a huge time sink to me and probably difficult to do with the schedule you'll have in med school.

 

[MrBurns10]

Sometimes when top schools say they are primary care focused, they only mean in relation to other top schools. Also, it's easier for people to be primary care focused when they are going to state schools in-state. Finally, primarcy care and clinical research or research of any kind are not mutually exclusive.

UNC is decently primary care-focused. Their students do 5 one-week primary care shadowing experiences during their first two years in various locales in the Carolinas. They have lengthened their family medicine rotation to 6 weeks and they have a required outpatient medicine 4-week rotation (which is largely just adult family medicine...so 10 total weeks of outpatient primary care). Peds is 8 weeks, while at many other schools it's six.

You're right, it's all relative and I don't know how this compares to schools other than my own. It's a great school and you can go into any field from UNC, though it does have a bit more of a primary care focus. But you're right...I think the research at UNC is great despite its clinical focus.

 

[drizzt3117]

UNC is decently primary care-focused. Their students do 5 one-week primary care shadowing experiences during their first two years in various locales in the Carolinas. They have lengthened their family medicine rotation to 6 weeks and they have a required outpatient medicine 4-week rotation (which is largely just adult family medicine...so 10 total weeks of outpatient primary care). Peds is 8 weeks, while at many other schools it's six.

You're right, it's all relative and I don't know how this compares to schools other than my own. It's a great school and you can go into any field from UNC, though it does have a bit more of a primary care focus. But you're right...I think the research at UNC is great despite its clinical focus.

UNC was 14th in NIH grants among medical schools in 2008.

http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2008/SchoolOfMedicine2008.xls

 

[BlackDr2b]

Howard, Howard, Howard!!! There is no doubt that you should be at Howard! Come on Sid, we have talked about this! You know where you need to be! Join me and the other 2 we talked about at the baddest in all the land! hahaha!

 

[sidalexis]

UNC was 14th in NIH grants among medical schools in 2008.

http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2008/SchoolOfMedicine2008.xls

I know, but I wonder how much exposure the students get to all that research.

Howard, Howard, Howard!!! There is no doubt that you should be at Howard! Come on Sid, we have talked about this! You know where you need to be! Join me and the other 2 we talked about at the baddest in all the land! hahaha!

You're a mess

 

[BlackDr2b]

I know! Haha! But just think of how much fun we would have! Yeeeeeessssssssss! I love my school! And so should you! LOL! Come on, you know you wanna! Hahaha1

 

[drizzt3117]

I know, but I wonder how much exposure the students get to all that research.

As much as you want to... you can definitely do research the summer after your first year, and many of us do research during the school year as well. I started working with a professor before school even started (contacted them before we started class) If you're interested in research or academic medicine, you're definitely better off at UNC, never mind the fact that you're in state there and it'd be less expensive, or the prestige factor.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Let me ask this, seriously...how many state schools arent interested in increasing the number of Primary care physicians in there state??

According to USNWR 52% of graduates over the past 3 years have gone onto primary care specialities, but half of those have gone into Internal medicine, most probably looking to specialize at one point or another(cards, GI, Heme, etc.)

 

[drizzt3117]

Let me ask this, seriously...how many state schools arent interested in increasing the number of Primary care physicians in there state??

According to USNWR 52% of graduates over the past 3 years have gone onto primary care specialities, but half of those have gone into Internal medicine, most probably looking to specialize at one point or another(cards, GI, Heme, etc.)

That's also a good thing for people interested in specializing, as you won't have to compete with as many people to do research in labs or shadowing in different specialties. That's probably not a huge problem at a medical campus as large as UNC but you never know. In any case, the primary care "focus" isn't an issue.

 

[diosa428]

UNC was 14th in NIH grants among medical schools in 2008.

http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2008/SchoolOfMedicine2008.xls

Ok, but how much NIH funding a school gets DOES NOT significantly affect you as a medical student. The amount of time you spend on primary care rotations DOES affect you, especially if you are not interested in primary care (ie, if you want to go into radiology, 10 weeks of outpatient primary care would really blow, especially when the kids at the school down the street do only 4 weeks and get lots of elective time to sit in a dark room looking at pictures).

Additionally, when a school has a "primary care focus", that usually is in reference to their curriculum (again, that thing that affects you as a student), and does not necessarily suggest that they don't have great research going on.

OP, if you really want a career in research, I'd actually recommend you take a year off to do one of the funded research programs (Doris Duke, Howard Hughes, etc). That will show your interest in research to residencies far more than going to a well known "research" school, and can be done at a local other than your medical school. That, along with getting published as a med student (if you can get involved in research) is going to be far more important than school name. Any of those schools that you mentioned likely has plenty of research going on, regardless of how many NIH dollars they're getting, and you just have to be proactive about finding something.

 

[RySerr21]

Let me ask this, seriously...how many state schools arent interested in increasing the number of Primary care physicians in there state??

According to USNWR 52% of graduates over the past 3 years have gone onto primary care specialities, but half of those have gone into Internal medicine, most probably looking to specialize at one point or another(cards, GI, Heme, etc.)

that aint **** compared to DO schools! They force over 99% of all students to go into family medicine.

 

[drizzt3117]

Ok, but how much NIH funding a school gets DOES NOT significantly affect you as a medical student. The amount of time you spend on primary care rotations DOES affect you, especially if you are not interested in primary care (ie, if you want to go into radiology, 10 weeks of outpatient primary care would really blow, especially when the kids at the school down the street do only 4 weeks and get lots of elective time to sit in a dark room looking at pictures).

Well, it does to some degree, students can do research with more well known faculty at institutions that are known for research. To some degree, having outpatient primary care preceptorships can affect you, but it also potentially gives you an opportunity to get a LOT of experience with specialties in the field.

OP, if you really want a career in research, I'd actually recommend you take a year off to do one of the funded research programs (Doris Duke, Howard Hughes, etc). That will show your interest in research to residencies far more than going to a well known "research" school, and can be done at a local other than your medical school. That, along with getting published as a med student (if you can get involved in research) is going to be far more important than school name. Any of those schools that you mentioned likely has plenty of research going on, regardless of how many NIH dollars they're getting, and you just have to be proactive about finding something.

this is good advice, doing research for a year would be helpful.

 

[MrBurns10]

Additionally, when a school has a "primary care focus", that usually is in reference to their curriculum (again, that thing that affects you as a student), and does not necessarily suggest that they don't have great research going on.

That was my point. I think UNC probably has the best research opportunities of any of the schools the OP mentioned. I was just saying that UNC does have a primary care focus (in response to an earlier comment), which is frustrating for many students not interested in those fields, but it doesn't really detract away from the research opportunities.

 

[scarletgirl777]

that aint **** compared to DO schools! They force over 99% of all students to go into family medicine.

I know you're joking, but the noobs might actually believe you

 

[sidalexis]

OP, if you really want a career in research, I'd actually recommend you take a year off to do one of the funded research programs (Doris Duke, Howard Hughes, etc). That will show your interest in research to residencies far more than going to a well known "research" school, and can be done at a local other than your medical school. That, along with getting published as a med student (if you can get involved in research) is going to be far more important than school name. Any of those schools that you mentioned likely has plenty of research going on, regardless of how many NIH dollars they're getting, and you just have to be proactive about finding something.

So I have several years of research under my belt and I will be leaving school with publications. I'm a nontraditional student. I do want to practice, but I want translational research to be a significant part of what I do. Physician scientist is the idea. The ideal school...that I shall not name...gave me the axe so I'm looking at these schools. And you're right...the lack of elective time does bother me. Does anyone know anything about GW's alternative third year? It's supposed to allow more time in internal med and surgery.

 

[MrBurns10]

And you're right...the lack of elective time does bother me.

The lack of elective time does kind of suck, though they do allow one month (unless you choose to do your outpatient med month), which is more than a lot of other schools can say. The vast majority of schools (inexplicably) don't allow much, if any, elective time in 3rd year. However, UNC gives plenty of elective time in 4th year. There are very few schools I would choose over the in-state tuition and solid reputation of UNC. Unless you hated it when you visited, I personally wouldn't think twice about this decision. Easier said than done, though 🙂

 

[diosa428]

So I have several years of research under my belt and I will be leaving school with publications. I'm a nontraditional student. I do want to practice, but I want translational research to be a significant part of what I do. Physician scientist is the idea. The ideal school...that I shall not name...gave me the axe so I'm looking at these schools. And you're right...the lack of elective time does bother me. Does anyone know anything about GW's alternative third year? It's supposed to allow more time in internal med and surgery.

Several of those year-off programs (Doris Duke, the NIH-Clinical Research Training Program) are clinical/translational research focused. Although it's great that you already have research experience, research IN med school is what really counts when you apply to residencies (although if you're less concerned about the prestige of your residency program and more concerned about just getting experience, I guess it matters less).

 

[drizzt3117]

Several of those year-off programs (Doris Duke, the NIH-Clinical Research Training Program) are clinical/translational research focused. Although it's great that you already have research experience, research IN med school is what really counts when you apply to residencies (although if you're less concerned about the prestige of your residency program and more concerned about just getting experience, I guess it matters less).

I think publications of any type are going to help you in the residency application process. Of course, if the research is relevant to the field you're applying in, if you worked with a top researcher in the field, if the publication was in a top journal in the field, or if you were listed as first author, it would help you at least marginally more.

diosa, are you saying that research as a med student is superior to full time research work prior to med school? Or simply that it's superior to research as an undergrad?

 

[RoyBasch]

Howard, Howard, Howard!!! There is no doubt that you should be at Howard! Come on Sid, we have talked about this! You know where you need to be! Join me and the other 2 we talked about at the baddest in all the land! hahaha!

Hey congrats on getting Howard! I have been rooting for you for a long time 😀
-Roy