MS IV - Confused and Sincerely Need Advice!

[lovetruth]

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Hello colleagues and mentors,

I am a current M4 student applying to PM&R. I need serious advice and input. I applied to > 55 programs on September 25th (Where Sept 15th is when applications were first accepted) (I did this because I did not want to be filtered out because of my step 1 issues and wanted my step 2 score, which was really high, to be on there when they see my application for the first time) and > 20 preliminary medicine programs. My PM&R LOR was in on October 1st (when schools have access to the MSEP). Since then I have only heard back from 4 PM&R programs (2 of which I have personally rotated at...and showed my true colors (that is, I am an extremely hardworking and passionate student, who wants to become an awesome physiatrist)). I have asked for a LOR from the first and asked another one from the one I am currently at. I have heard back from only 1 preliminary program.

Based on my submission date...does anyone have input as to when I should start getting worried about not having enough interviews (e.g. If I don't have 14 interviews by ___ date then I should ____? (both for PM&R and Preliminary/TY)? (Because I am currently very worried when I compare to peers who have submitted their application much earlier. I have not heard back from my top 10 programs (and I know for sure that most of them have given out interviews after they downloaded my application, although some have given them out before they got my application) and do not want to be put on their bad list by contacting them early. Please advise or PM me!

Oh! And Thank you (in advance)!

 

[Iamnotme]

Hello colleagues and mentors,

I am a current M4 student applying to PM&R. I need serious advice and input. I applied to > 55 programs on September 25th (Where Sept 15th is when applications were first accepted) (I did this because I did not want to be filtered out because of my step 1 issues and wanted my step 2 score, which was really high, to be on there when they see my application for the first time) and > 20 preliminary medicine programs. My PM&R LOR was in on October 1st (when schools have access to the MSEP). Since then I have only heard back from 4 PM&R programs (2 of which I have personally rotated at...and showed my true colors (that is, I am an extremely hardworking and passionate student, who wants to become an awesome physiatrist)). I have asked for a LOR from the first and asked another one from the one I am currently at. I have heard back from only 1 preliminary program.

Based on my submission date...does anyone have input as to when I should start getting worried about not having enough interviews (e.g. If I don't have 14 interviews by ___ date then I should ____? (both for PM&R and Preliminary/TY)? (Because I am currently very worried when I compare to peers who have submitted their application much earlier. I have not heard back from my top 10 programs (and I know for sure that most of them have given out interviews after they downloaded my application, although some have given them out before they got my application) and do not want to be put on their bad list by contacting them early. Please advise or PM me!

Oh! And Thank you (in advance)!

Sometimes programs have not reviewed your app yet. It takes them a while sometimes.

 

[hashtag]

Hello there. I am also an M4 with the same questions regarding prelim. I have only heard back from 2 so far (my home institution, perhaps out of mercy) and a hospital closely affiliated with my home institution (perhaps out of pity). I did notice (as did my friends who are applying to other specialties also requiring prelim years) that a lot of them offer interview dates in January; maybe they want to interview categoricals first?

Hope this helps!

 

[DubVille]

Last year, the prelims all seemed slower to respond. Don't sweat it yet. Make sure you apply to TY/prelim in the region of your school, as there seems to be a bias for those programs. If you are truly freaked out and could live doing a surgery prelim, you could apply. Hopefully it won't come to that.

 

[lovetruth]

Hey! Thank you for the reassurance 🙂. I do feel that the program I got a TY offer from may be out of mercy too (unless they are smart and looking for a TY resident that is going to emphasize quality patient care and who actually really cares)!

But honestly, if you take clinical grades (and step 2), I should be as strong as others applying for TYs...but if you look at Step 1 (the knowledge I did not really use on my clinical rotations...and yet did very well on my shelfs), I look like a sad case in comparison! Good thought about them wanting to interview in January....I hope your are right. Thanks again, Hashtag, I need insight like yours 🙂

DubVille,
Yay...thank you, I am glad to hear from someone who has gone through the process last year! I just applied to even more preliminary medicine/TY programs (out of shear nervousness). No...applying to preliminary surgery would just not make sense for me...I honored my IM clerkship by objective (grade) and subjective (evals) criteria. Yes, I am crossing my fingers that it wont come to that! After all, the reason I love PM&R is because of the time you spend thinking about the patients quality of life and improving it...in surgery, I got the vibe that it was more about seeing more patients so that you make more money...and function never mattered after they went home, which absolutely did not appeal to me! The mentality is totally out of tune from my values as an emerging clinician.

Does any one (preferably from last year and from experience) have any insight to my question in regards to getting only 4 PM&R interviews so far (and as of today...2 rejections and 1 stating that I am on the waiting list)? By what time should I start getting sincerely worried in regards to not having enough PM&R interviews? And what are my options?

 

[DubVille]

I would get worried by early November. I had most of my PMR interviews by then. Only 2 trickled in after that.

 

[RangerBob]

I only had four PM&R invites by this time last year, as well as a rejection. I got a number of invites towards the end of Oct, during Nov, and even one or two in Dec (cancellation and an additional interview day added for one program). Many programs don't even send out initial invites until early November (three CA programs come to mind...)

If the program you're wait-listed at is one you're really interested in (as in one of your top choices on paper) and you are able to follow through, I'd let the program coordinator know that you could come up last minute. I was waist-listed at two programs I was really interested in, and got an invite from both of them a few days before the interview. But there was a program that unfortunately it made no difference--I probably wasn't as high up on their wait-list and/or expressing interest made no difference.

Either way, being wait-listed means you're still in the game, and especially if the program isn't top-tier (and even then...) many people will cancel their interviews as the season progresses.

 

[lovetruth]

Dubville:
- Thank you for the guidance (of when I should get worried).

RangerBob:
- I have been reading your posts for the "confused" thread. And, seriously, I just want to thank you for all your input. It relieves me to know that you were at about the same place I am now! Ok, I will start making calls...I need more interviews! I cross my fingers for the next two weeks of October...as this week has been empty for me. Now I am on the waiting list for 2 places (MCV and Albany), but fortunately got a second TY year offer (That makes 2 so far! My goal is to have 7, maybe 8). So my current stats are:
1. 4 PM&R Interviews
2. 2 Waiting List (MCV & Albany).
3. 2 TY interviews

Wish me luck! And, thank you very much! 🙂

 

[RangerBob]

Dubville:
- Thank you for the guidance (of when I should get worried).

RangerBob:
- I have been reading your posts for the "confused" thread. And, seriously, I just want to thank you for all your input. It relieves me to know that you were at about the same place I am now! Ok, I will start making calls...I need more interviews! I cross my fingers for the next two weeks of October...as this week has been empty for me. Now I am on the waiting list for 2 places (MCV and Albany), but fortunately got a second TY year offer (That makes 2 so far! My goal is to have 7, maybe 8). So my current stats are:
1. 4 PM&R Interviews
2. 2 Waiting List (MCV & Albany).
3. 2 TY interviews

Wish me luck! And, thank you very much! 🙂

I would personally recommend contacting only the programs you're wait-listed at for right now, if they're programs you would accept and be able to make it to a last-minute interview. There's debate over when to start contacting programs, but other than calling to make sure a program hadn't forgotten about me (one program hadn't downloaded my USMLE scores two weeks after downloading everything else, so I called just to check in), I don't think I started contacting any programs until Nov. Lots of programs are still handing out initial invites through early November.

However, there are other schools of thought and you should do what feels right for you. There's a thread where people are debating when/how to contact programs. But feel confident that more interviews will come in 🙂

Best of luck! I hope you get off both wait-lists. I really loved VCU/MCV--they actually had my favorite curriculum/rotation schedule of any program I interviewed at. And they have Dr. Cifu--I would love to have been able to work with him. Unfortunately because of my wife's preferences I ranked them lower than I wanted to. Were I single it would've been in my top 4.

 

[lovetruth]

Rangerbob,

Actually I meant MCW! Thanks for the input and good wishes. Anyways, I think my stars are going to change...I just got in my last (4th) LOR for PM&R in and it is my second one for PM&R...from an awesome very much respected physiatrist and great role model who gave me a great evaluation and feedback! I will be updating my transcript ASAP to include my consequent second Honors in this PM&R elective (once my school processes it) and residencies will see this LOR as well! I am crossing my fingers and very hopeful for the best! 🙂

 

[RangerBob]

Rangerbob,

Actually I meant MCW! Thanks for the input and good wishes. Anyways, I think my stars are going to change...I just got in my last (4th) LOR for PM&R in and it is my second one for PM&R...from an awesome very much respected physiatrist and great role model who gave me a great evaluation and feedback! I will be updating my transcript ASAP to include my consequent second Honors in this PM&R elective (once my school processes it) and residencies will see this LOR as well! I am crossing my fingers and very hopeful for the best! 🙂

Oh, well I liked MCW even more--it was my favorite program/best fit, and where I'm heading next year 🙂 Tons of really nice and happy residents/faculty there. Out of the programs where I interviewed, MCW and UNC won the "happiness" category. And it was pretty clear because those were probably the only two programs where I met every resident. UNC is categorical and I think even the PGY1s came to lunch...

I'll be hoping for the best for you as well. Best of luck, and enjoy interview season--I thought it was a blast.

 

[lovetruth]

Three Questions for previous year's applicants:

1. How many interviews would you recommend going on (or rather placing on my ROL...in order to MATCH)?
- I have reviewed last years ROL thread and all. I have noted how many programs people ranked...but I want your recommendation based off of your eventual matching experience. Thank you 🙂

2. How many Prelims would you recommend going on? (Again, I have a number that I was told by my school advisor...but I want to get your input...from last year's matching experience). Thanks.

3. Finally, looking at the distribution of my interviews, it seems that half are Top tiers (according to my research on sdn categorization from surfing multiple threads of the past), a little less are middle tier, and I hardly got any invites from programs that are less well known (I'd say literally 1/5 of my invites)...that some would call lower tier (even if they have a solid program...by the way I like these programs very much...and don't really count them as low tier, but they have not been discussed and purported to be the top or middle tier...and hence I place them into the this category).
- I am very confused about this. I really WISH I had a more stratified distribution (1/3 to tier, 1/3 middle tier, 1/3 low tier). Its more like 1/2 top tier, 2/5 middle tier, and 1/5 low tier. I am now afraid that I may not match as I don't have much back up!
- My take on my lack of lower tier program interviews may be because they gave out all their interviews BEFORE I applied? Do you agree?

 

[lovetruth]

By the way, THANK YOU for the above advice on this thread. You made me more confident and rightly so...I've already hit my minimum limit of interviews that I originally planned on going to for both PM&R and prelims....and am 2 away from hitting my upper limit....However, my above questions are meant to get YOUR insight from the match experience. Thank you (in advance 🙂

 

[RangerBob]

1. Personally, my goal was to interview at 10 programs with the goal to rank 8. I ended up accepting 13 interviews and ranked them all. Based on my actual matching experience I could have ranked just three, but you never know if you'll match at one of your top choices or lower on your list. In addition, you never know when a program will really surprise you (either positively or negatively), so it's good to have a safe number.

Were I to do things over again, I would have definitely cancelled one program that just didn't make much sense for me (way too outpatient focused--I should have thought about that more before the interview). Also, I accepted one interview primarily because the offer was for the date of my high school best-friend's dissertation. If she wasn't giving her defense that evening I would not have accepted that interview, but I thought I might as well check out the program prior to the talk. So, that really means I would have aimed for 11 interviews total, and I would have been very comfortable with that number.

2. Pre-lims are tough. I had no idea how many to rank, though I'd heard a lot about how many PM&R programs to rank. I was in Chicago, so I basically applied to most community pre-lim IM programs nearby, my university program, and TY's within a one day's drive (WI, MI, IA, IL). I think I ended going on 8 pre-lim interviews, and one of those was MCW's pre-lim (ie, a "freebie"). I ended up at my first choice prelim on my supplemental list, but honestly I don't know how far down that list I'd have gone if I didn't match where I am. If you have lots of prelims near your current city I'd recommend applying to them all--it's very easy to make the short commute to interview at the program. Otherwise I don't know how many pre-lims to recommend.

3. If half of your interviews are "top tier" then I'd say you're doing quite well 🙂 I can understand why you'd be nervous, but the interviews you get reflect how competitive of an applicant you are, so there's probably a good chance that if you interview well, you will match at one of those top tier programs (if you rank them all at the top of your list). I wouldn't be worried at all about not getting many "lower tier" interviews--it sounds like you're a competitive applicant, so your "backups" are likely going to be stronger programs than backup programs for someone who barely passed their USMLE/COMLEX's.

 

[hopefulfor2013]

Three Questions for previous year's applicants:

1. How many interviews would you recommend going on (or rather placing on my ROL...in order to MATCH)?
- I have reviewed last years ROL thread and all. I have noted how many programs people ranked...but I want your recommendation based off of your eventual matching experience. Thank you 🙂

2. How many Prelims would you recommend going on? (Again, I have a number that I was told by my school advisor...but I want to get your input...from last year's matching experience). Thanks.

3. Finally, looking at the distribution of my interviews, it seems that half are Top tiers (according to my research on sdn categorization from surfing multiple threads of the past), a little less are middle tier, and I hardly got any invites from programs that are less well known (I'd say literally 1/5 of my invites)...that some would call lower tier (even if they have a solid program...by the way I like these programs very much...and don't really count them as low tier, but they have not been discussed and purported to be the top or middle tier...and hence I place them into the this category).
- I am very confused about this. I really WISH I had a more stratified distribution (1/3 to tier, 1/3 middle tier, 1/3 low tier). Its more like 1/2 top tier, 2/5 middle tier, and 1/5 low tier. I am now afraid that I may not match as I don't have much back up!
- My take on my lack of lower tier program interviews may be because they gave out all their interviews BEFORE I applied? Do you agree?

If time and money are not much of an issue, I'd say go on as many interviews as you can. Traveling and visiting new places is fun. And also you might be surprised how much you like a program you initially would not consider interviewing at. I think I interviewed at 17 places for PM&R and 6 for intern yr. The whole process was expensive and time-consuming but I think it was a small price to pay to have a really good idea of what I want and where I'd fit. If you're open about where you are willing to go for intern yr, it makes it a lot easier. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about the "tiers." It seems like everyone has differing opinions on how strong a program is. Interview, make your own opinion, and go from there. Good luck!

 

[lovetruth]

Thanks for the great advice RangerBob and hopefulfor2013!

I don't know. I kind of question being a competitive applicant...because I am not getting as many (number wise) interviews as I should if I were. But, as of now I am satisfied with the number (and most definitely quality of programs), having reached my minimum goal! Before applying to PM&R, however, I honestly thought I was definitely an above average applicant for anything in medicine and for most programs in PM&R including the top 6....that is if they read through my entire application (which I now doubt after the poor response and after having the program director at one of my interviews staring down at my application like he did not know me). But lets see...November has just began.

My plan is in accordance with both of your ideas. As of now I have my minimum goal reached for PM&R and Prelim...but would go on a few more of PM&R and Prelim interviews...if I get more invites. 17 would be pushing it for me....first off I have to get 17 invites, haha, and also, I feel like I would be spreading myself too thin going on all those interviews....I would cap off at 13-14 interviews at programs that I plan to legitimately rank.

I know a lot of places have already given out all their interviews. I think some programs give out interviews on a first come first serve basis as well (in relation to the entire application being complete). I still stand by waiting for my Step 2 score for some programs....but maybe I should have been more selective by finding out which programs give out early interviews (and I should have applied to them first). Unfortunately though, I had no control over my first LOR for PM&R coming in later...it was sent by mail and supposed to come 1 week earlier than it did....when my school never received it, I called up and contacted the necessary people and had it uploaded that day electronically....places didn't download it until the following week or so...and that's when I started hearing back...after they downloaded it.

Oh, well, only time will tell in regards to more invites....November has just began! And according to previous advise given to me on this thread, I should be getting a trickle of few more invites to cap off at my goal's upper limit! 🙂