How many hours does MS3/MS4 spend in the hospital? Does residence spend 80 hrs/week? Is there a new rule which reduce residence hours to 60? Excuse me for my ignorance these are all genuine question and would like honest answers. Thanks.
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MS3/MS4 and Residence hours
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How many hours does MS3/MS4 spend in the hospital? Does residence spend 80 hrs/week? Is there a new rule which reduce residence hours to 60? Excuse me for my ignorance these are all genuine question and would like honest answers. Thanks.
M3/M4 hours vary among different rotations and medical schools. There are two medical schools in my metro area and students and residents from both schools rotate through the county hospital. On our ped service, our M3s would have to spend the night with us when we were on call and help with admissions, scut work...etc. But the students from the other medical schools get to go home at 9 PM when their team was on call. So it varies.
I used to let M3s go home early to study (I hope they did) when our inpatient service wasn't so bad once they've done what they had to do. Even as a chief resident, I didn't like to keep them around when I wasn't going to teach them anything or when all the patients were doing fine and stable and there were nothing new to teach. However, some of my fellow colleagues disagreed with me and thought that the fact that by staying around in the hospital itself was a learning experience.
As an intern, I worked pretty much 65-80 hours per week. But working time decreased to about 50-60 when I was a 3rd year. And it depends on your specialty as well.
Sorry, there is really no straight answer.
Hi Dr. G.,
I really appreciate your response. From your answers, I now have a better perspective of the hours involved. I think those M3s/M4s lucked out when they have you for their chief resident. It's not a myth that some Docs are exceedingly tough on their students and I hope that I don't run into them too often as a future med student. Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
I really appreciate your response. From your answers, I now have a better perspective of the hours involved. I think those M3s/M4s lucked out when they have you for their chief resident. It's not a myth that some Docs are exceedingly tough on their students and I hope that I don't run into them too often as a future med student. Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
M3/M4 hours vary among different rotations and medical schools. There are two medical schools in my metro area and students and residents from both schools rotate through the county hospital. On our ped service, our M3s would have to spend the night with us when we were on call and help with admissions, scut work...etc. But the students from the other medical schools get to go home at 9 PM when their team was on call. So it varies.
I used to let M3s go home early to study (I hope they did) when our inpatient service wasn't so bad once they've done what they had to do. Even as a chief resident, I didn't like to keep them around when I wasn't going to teach them anything or when all the patients were doing fine and stable and there were nothing new to teach. However, some of my fellow colleagues disagreed with me and thought that the fact that by staying around in the hospital itself was a learning experience.
As an intern, I worked pretty much 65-80 hours per week. But working time decreased to about 50-60 when I was a 3rd year. And it depends on your specialty as well.
Sorry, there is really no straight answer.
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Hi Dr. G.,
I really appreciate your response. From your answers, I now have a better perspective of the hours involved. I think those M3s/M4s lucked out when they have you for their chief resident. It's not a myth that some Docs are exceedingly tough on their students and I hope that I don't run into them too often as a future med student. Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
You're very welcome.
I'd like to think that I'm an educator. So my philosophy is that if there is nothing I could contribute to the students learning, then there is no reason to keep them. I am sure they have better things to do.
I used to dislike (I'm not going to use the word hate) some of my superiors when I was at the bottom of the totem pole just because they kept me until the end of the day for nothing. We used to just sit in the call room or nurse's station and do nothing while my superiors tried to chit chat with me about my personal life or tell me about their personal life. I mean, one or two times would be ok and enough time to learn about one another but not everyday throughout the whole rotation.
So I didn't want to do that to my students. But that's just me.
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Med student work hours varied.
I honestly worked up to 100+ hours sometimes per week on trauma and general surgery and ortho. That was the worst.
Peds was every 4th night overnight in the hospital (30 hours per shift) as was IM, then more normal hours (like 7am-3 or 4pm) on other days.
Neuro and OB were more hours than psych but probably less than peds and IM.
Days off also vary wildly...3rd year or during 4th year subI's, usually got 1 day off per week at my school, if the resident or attending remembered to give it to us. On psych you might get whole weekends off.
4th year if you want to slack off you can do really easy rotations after your subinternship(s) and basically never have to work weekends or overnight if you don't want.
Resident work hours are now capped at 80 per week, supposedly. some surgical programs still violate this. Most IM programs are more or less in compliance. A 60 hour or 65 hr cap has been discussed I think but I don't see this happening soon, and personally I would oppose it.
I worked about 80hrs/week as an intern, less on my 1 outpatient month. As a PGY2 and 3 residency, we had a lot fewer on call months, so less hours. More normal like 50 hrs weeks if on outpatient or consults, again nearing 80 when on inpatient months.
I honestly worked up to 100+ hours sometimes per week on trauma and general surgery and ortho. That was the worst.
Peds was every 4th night overnight in the hospital (30 hours per shift) as was IM, then more normal hours (like 7am-3 or 4pm) on other days.
Neuro and OB were more hours than psych but probably less than peds and IM.
Days off also vary wildly...3rd year or during 4th year subI's, usually got 1 day off per week at my school, if the resident or attending remembered to give it to us. On psych you might get whole weekends off.
4th year if you want to slack off you can do really easy rotations after your subinternship(s) and basically never have to work weekends or overnight if you don't want.
Resident work hours are now capped at 80 per week, supposedly. some surgical programs still violate this. Most IM programs are more or less in compliance. A 60 hour or 65 hr cap has been discussed I think but I don't see this happening soon, and personally I would oppose it.
I worked about 80hrs/week as an intern, less on my 1 outpatient month. As a PGY2 and 3 residency, we had a lot fewer on call months, so less hours. More normal like 50 hrs weeks if on outpatient or consults, again nearing 80 when on inpatient months.
Dr. G.,
I'm an exponent of your philosophy. You set a great example not just among your peers but also among the entire Medical community. There's an old saying that if you want to be a millionaire, you find that millionaire, do what he did and you too will be a milionaire. On that note, if you want to be a great Physician, find that Physician, emulate him and you too will be a great Physician. I think that you are that great Physician and I hope that your students will capitalized on this opportunity and to learn as much as they can from you. For the past 3 months, I have been volunteering at the ED and some of the Physicians that I observed seem very robotic and impersonal. I had even witness one Senior Resident screaming at another lower level Resident from the top of her lungs. If this is a tradition and initiation of being a Doctor, I hope to see very little of it when I reach that level. As a future Physician, I'm committed to practicing medicine without compromising my human quality.
Kindest Regards,
Benjamin
I'm an exponent of your philosophy. You set a great example not just among your peers but also among the entire Medical community. There's an old saying that if you want to be a millionaire, you find that millionaire, do what he did and you too will be a milionaire. On that note, if you want to be a great Physician, find that Physician, emulate him and you too will be a great Physician. I think that you are that great Physician and I hope that your students will capitalized on this opportunity and to learn as much as they can from you. For the past 3 months, I have been volunteering at the ED and some of the Physicians that I observed seem very robotic and impersonal. I had even witness one Senior Resident screaming at another lower level Resident from the top of her lungs. If this is a tradition and initiation of being a Doctor, I hope to see very little of it when I reach that level. As a future Physician, I'm committed to practicing medicine without compromising my human quality.
Kindest Regards,
Benjamin
You're very welcome.
I'd like to think that I'm an educator. So my philosophy is that if there is nothing I could contribute to the students learning, then there is no reason to keep them. I am sure they have better things to do.
I used to dislike (I'm not going to use the word hate) some of my superiors when I was at the bottom of the totem pole just because they kept me until the end of the day for nothing. We used to just sit in the call room or nurse's station and do nothing while my superiors tried to chit chat with me about my personal life or tell me about their personal life. I mean, one or two times would be ok and enough time to learn about one another but not everyday throughout the whole rotation.
So I didn't want to do that to my students. But that's just me.
Hello Dr. Dragonfly,
First, thank you for your time. Whoa..100+ hours per week as a Med. Student blows my mind. I've never held a job working 50 hours a week. But as strange as it sound to some folks, I enjoy being in the ED/Shock room even if it's just to listen to the Doctors talking. Perhaps, I feel this way now because I have no spouse or children. It's apparent that hours for Med. Stud. varies by programs. The 80 hrs seem to me more appropriate and I do have to agree 60 hrs/wk is a bit of a drop from 100 hrs./wk.
I've read many of your post and you are very optimistic and encouraging about medicine as a career. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Benjamin
First, thank you for your time. Whoa..100+ hours per week as a Med. Student blows my mind. I've never held a job working 50 hours a week. But as strange as it sound to some folks, I enjoy being in the ED/Shock room even if it's just to listen to the Doctors talking. Perhaps, I feel this way now because I have no spouse or children. It's apparent that hours for Med. Stud. varies by programs. The 80 hrs seem to me more appropriate and I do have to agree 60 hrs/wk is a bit of a drop from 100 hrs./wk.
I've read many of your post and you are very optimistic and encouraging about medicine as a career. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Benjamin
Med student work hours varied.
I honestly worked up to 100+ hours sometimes per week on trauma and general surgery and ortho. That was the worst.
Peds was every 4th night overnight in the hospital (30 hours per shift) as was IM, then more normal hours (like 7am-3 or 4pm) on other days.
Neuro and OB were more hours than psych but probably less than peds and IM.
Days off also vary wildly...3rd year or during 4th year subI's, usually got 1 day off per week at my school, if the resident or attending remembered to give it to us. On psych you might get whole weekends off.
4th year if you want to slack off you can do really easy rotations after your subinternship(s) and basically never have to work weekends or overnight if you don't want.
Resident work hours are now capped at 80 per week, supposedly. some surgical programs still violate this. Most IM programs are more or less in compliance. A 60 hour or 65 hr cap has been discussed I think but I don't see this happening soon, and personally I would oppose it.
I worked about 80hrs/week as an intern, less on my 1 outpatient month. As a PGY2 and 3 residency, we had a lot fewer on call months, so less hours. More normal like 50 hrs weeks if on outpatient or consults, again nearing 80 when on inpatient months.
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Hello Dr. Dragonfly,
First, thank you for your time. Whoa..100+ hours per week as a Med. Student blows my mind. I've never held a job working 50 hours a week. But as strange as it sound to some folks, I enjoy being in the ED/Shock room even if it's just to listen to the Doctors talking. Perhaps, I feel this way now because I have no spouse or children. It's apparent that hours for Med. Stud. varies by programs. The 80 hrs seem to me more appropriate and I do have to agree 60 hrs/wk is a bit of a drop from 100 hrs./wk.
I've read many of your post and you are very optimistic and encouraging about medicine as a career. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Benjamin
As mentioned the 80 hours/week cap for residents is an average over a month, meaning you are allowed to go over 80 hours in a given week or two. As for med students, there is no protective rule nationally (a few med schools have enacted their own internal rules), so it's very conceivable that residents require their med students to preround before they come in and finish up putting things away in charts and the like at the end of the day after the resident leaves. So your day can start and end before and after the resident, who is working 80 hours.
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