MS4 Dismissed - Please Help

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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SpartanWolverine said:
That's because you were a middle of the road, average student. Our dean likes to say he hopes to only see us twice -- convocation and graduation. The vast majority of students will not have any issues and, likely, will hardly be known to faculty. My point is that the kind of students who get dismissed are often throwing off red flags from the beginning of their time in medical school and make themselves known in a bad way.
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Agreed. The point is that the op claims that he has never had any trouble prior to this. If he had been meeting with faculty and deans regularly to discuss performance issues and still claimed that he has had no problems, then that is profound lack of insight. If he truly was a regular student with no prior history then the school's action is unbelievably harsh.
 
what are chances of a successful match in an 'average' specialty if there is a note in your MSPE that you were dishonest/cheated, but were not dismissed from school?
 
itsogre said:
what are chances of a successful match in an 'average' specialty if there is a note in your MSPE that you were dishonest/cheated, but were not dismissed from school?
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Not good. Many of the ones caught cheating that I brought up earlier ended up scrambling or ended in their backup specialties. One individual went from reasonable aspirations for plastics, with several years worth of plastics research under his belt, to matching family medicine. You got to think about it from a program's perspective. Why would they want to take a chance on the guy who has academic dishonesty on his record, when I could take the guy with a slightly lower step score, but a squeaky clean record?
 
sliceofbread136 said:
So since I'm an "animal" and draw conclusions from "past experiences" can I go ahead and say that all Jewish people are cheap? Or all black people are crooks? How about Muslims being terrorists?

On a serious note you should probably try and avoid bias more in your decision making.
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If you touch a fence and it shocks you, would you touch it again? Say you do, and it shocks you again . . . Will you touch it a third time?
 
I didn't read most of the comments so I'm not sure if this has been said but: anyone that thinks that someone should be kicked out MS4 year for cheating on an online quiz is ****ing STUPID and i hope you're in that situation at some point to realize how stupid you are. End of discussion.
 
username456789 said:
If you touch a fence and it shocks you, would you touch it again? Say you do, and it shocks you again . . . Will you touch it a third time?
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Oh of course not. And if I were a police officer I would plant drugs in people's cars that I pulled over for speeding. Tip of the iceberg, especially if they are black.

You should watch Making a Murder, great example of how an assumption of guilt clouds judgement and inhibits good decision making. Bias is not a good thing.
 
sliceofbread136 said:
So since I'm an "animal" and draw conclusions from "past experiences" can I go ahead and say that all Jewish people are cheap? Or all black people are crooks? How about Muslims being terrorists?

On a serious note you should probably try and avoid bias more in your decision making.
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Splitting hairs, buddy. Took that one and ran a little far with it. Good on ya.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Goro said:
And, if you become a mom parent, you'll quickly learn that there are always two sides to every story.
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In my experience, there are 3 sides to every story. What one child says. What the other child (or sometimes parent) says. And what really happened.

Merely said:
I didn't read most of the comments so I'm not sure if this has been said but: anyone that thinks that someone should be kicked out MS4 year for cheating on an online quiz is ****ing STUPID and i hope you're in that situation at some point to realize how stupid you are. End of discussion.
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If you're "in that situation at some point" you've cheated, and get what you deserve. Guess what happens to residents who "cheat" in my program -- by cutting corners, not showing up to work if you think no one will notice, say you have done things that you have not, etc? You get fired. Sometimes I give someone a second chance. Many times I don't -- because almost always, once this happens once, when we start to check we find a pattern. It's easy to find - we just look where the resident thinks no one would look.

Cheating is unacceptable. End of story. I can't believe you're defending it.
 
sliceofbread136 said:
Oh of course not. And if I were a police officer I would plant drugs in people's cars that I pulled over for speeding. Tip of the iceberg, especially if they are black.

You should watch Making a Murder, great example of how an assumption of guilt clouds judgement and inhibits good decision making. Bias is not a good thing.
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Face-You-Make-Robert-Downey-Jr.jpg
 
I agree with slicebread. we all agree that cheating is wrong on any levels, but the punishment is too severe with the information he has presented us. we should not assume a pattern of this behavior without further proof which we may never get as this is an internet forum. There should definitely be some consequences, but destroying a person's career/years of investment/nondischargable debt is in my opinion not an appropriate punishment for what he presented us.
 
OK, a little homework assignment for those of you who are Med students.

Can you dig up your student handbooks and let us know what is the penalty for cheating at your school?

Does your school have a policy?

Does your school have a death penalty for cheating?

Is it automatic?

I am curious to see if any school out there has the wording " the penalty for cheating will be dismissal"


sliceofbread136 said:
Another compelling argument, thank you
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I disagree that the admin would need to dismiss one student they didn't want to for a first time infraction just to try to justify dismissing another student involved that they did want to. That came up earlier in the thread.

Admin can make a case why they would punish one student in a cheating scandal and not the other easily enough. Med schools can keep anyone they like.

@Goro , the wording I always seem to see with any punishment is usually "The consequences for said action can include x, y, and up to z," where z is dismissal or termination. Doesn't mean it's automatic, but you're right people need to acknowledge that dismissal can ALWAYS be the punishment for any rule breaking. Even if it's not stated as a punishment for an infraction it still can be!!
 
Goro said:
OK, a little homework assignment for those of you who are Med students.

Can you dig up your student handbooks and let us know what is the penalty for cheating at your school?

Does your school have a policy?

Does your school have a death penalty for cheating?

Is it automatic?

I am curious to see if any school out there has the wording " the penalty for cheating will be dismissal"
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In addition to the mandatory sanctions set forth in section b and course sanctions set forth in section c, recommended sanctions for any honor code violation may include one or more of the following:

I. Permanent expulsion from the Medical School.

II. Suspension from the Medical School for a specified time.

III. Any other sanction or sanctions which the hearing panel deems just and fair under the circumstances.

The Honor Board shall be responsible for educating the student body on all issues concerning this honor code.
 
This is what I would do.

Find the most important person that you worked with during your clinical years. Must be a faculty member. Preferably a tenured professor. Go talk to him/her and tell him how you appreciate his honest advice etc etc etc and how you enjoyed working with him/her. Tell your story to him/her and have him/her plead to the dean for you or appear at the hearing with you..
 
aProgDirector said:
In my experience, there are 3 sides to every story. What one child says. What the other child (or sometimes parent) says. And what really happened.



If you're "in that situation at some point" you've cheated, and get what you deserve. Guess what happens to residents who "cheat" in my program -- by cutting corners, not showing up to work if you think no one will notice, say you have done things that you have not, etc? You get fired. Sometimes I give someone a second chance. Many times I don't -- because almost always, once this happens once, when we start to check we find a pattern. It's easy to find - we just look where the resident thinks no one would look.

Cheating is unacceptable. End of story. I can't believe you're defending it.
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You brought up a couple of things that bring residents to your attention (cutting corners, not showing up, lying). Are those a top 3 for dismissal, or is there a better set?

Morbid curiosity.
 
aProgDirector said:
In my experience, there are 3 sides to every story. What one child says. What the other child (or sometimes parent) says. And what really happened.



If you're "in that situation at some point" you've cheated, and get what you deserve. Guess what happens to residents who "cheat" in my program -- by cutting corners, not showing up to work if you think no one will notice, say you have done things that you have not, etc? You get fired. Sometimes I give someone a second chance. Many times I don't -- because almost always, once this happens once, when we start to check we find a pattern. It's easy to find - we just look where the resident thinks no one would look.

Cheating is unacceptable. End of story. I can't believe you're defending it.
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Give me a break. If you think it's morally acceptable to destroy someone's entire life over cheating on an online quiz, you're either out of touch or very very callous. What's the kid about to do now with 150k in debt, no degree, no job? Give him a second chance damn it's not like he killed someone. People are driving drunk and graduating ffs
 
Merely said:
Give me a break. If you think it's morally acceptable to destroy someone's entire life over cheating on an online quiz, you're either out of touch or very very callous. What's the kid about to do now with 150k in debt, no degree, no job? Give him a second chance damn it's not like he killed someone. People are driving drunk and graduating ffs
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But the integrity of online quizzes is at stake!
 
Goro said:
OK, a little homework assignment for those of you who are Med students.

Can you dig up your student handbooks and let us know what is the penalty for cheating at your school?

Does your school have a policy?

Does your school have a death penalty for cheating?

Is it automatic?

I am curious to see if any school out there has the wording " the penalty for cheating will be dismissal"
Click to expand...

I just checked my handbook (out of post-boards boredom, and packing procrastination). Cheating is an "honor code violation" and gets you sent to the Student Promotion and Graduation (SPG) Committee. Obviously, the result of that meeting could have a variety of outcomes.
 
Merely said:
Give me a break. If you think it's morally acceptable to destroy someone's entire life over cheating on an online quiz, you're either out of touch or very very callous. What's the kid about to do now with 150k in debt, no degree, no job? Give him a second chance damn it's not like he killed someone. People are driving drunk and graduating ffs
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Read the thread linked in post #86 - that's how 99% of these threads end. It's very likely that OP hasn't provided all of the details, hence most posters' views on the issue. Also, having been involved in disciplinary committee hearings in med school, students that get dismissed for what seem like small infractions by themselves that don't warrant extreme punishment always either have a loooooong trail of red flags and this is the straw the broke the camel's back, or they try their damnedest to grossly downplay the significance of what happened.
 
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zafonte86 said:
A person in my class was kicked out at the end of second year for forging doctors signatures. He ended up going Caribbean and doing the pre match in IM. I guess it's still possible....
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when was this? just curious.
because i know they stopped the pre match thing for IMG not too long ago. right?
did they bring it back?
 
SSJimmer7 said:
In addition to the mandatory sanctions set forth in section b and course sanctions set forth in section c, recommended sanctions for any honor code violation may include one or more of the following:

I. Permanent expulsion from the Medical School.

II. Suspension from the Medical School for a specified time.

III. Any other sanction or sanctions which the hearing panel deems just and fair under the circumstances.

The Honor Board shall be responsible for educating the student body on all issues concerning this honor code.
Click to expand...

That's a a questionably written passage, should have been just "Any sanction or sanctions which the the hearing panel deems just and fair under the circumstances" rather than I,II,III since, as it is right now there is an 'exception that proves the rule' that the hearing panel can expel or suspend a student even when they do not deem it "just and fair" since that language is only in III and not I&II.

Since I'm lawyering already, the cheater should take a hard look at what the school policy describes as cheating. (S)He might find that what they did can be argued not to fit the definition or that the school doesn't have sufficient evidence to prove it did.
 
markrivers said:
when was this? just curious.
because i know they stopped the pre match thing for IMG not too long ago. right?
did they bring it back?
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This was a few months ago. From my understanding a program can do pre match if your program is not participating in the match. I looked up the program and they did not participate in the acgme match this year. I was surprised to see the person in question made it that far but I guess where there is a will there is a way.
 
zafonte86 said:
This was a few months ago. From my understanding a program can do pre match if your program is not participating in the match. I looked up the program and they did not participate in the acgme match this year. I was surprised to see the person in question made it that far but I guess where there is a will there is a way.
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thanks!
i forgot that there are programs that don't participate in the match.
anyway, it's good to know he/she was given a second chance.
 
aim-agm said:
That's a a questionably written passage, should have been just "Any sanction or sanctions which the the hearing panel deems just and fair under the circumstances" rather than I,II,III since, as it is right now there is an 'exception that proves the rule' that the hearing panel can expel or suspend a student even when they do not deem it "just and fair" since that language is only in III and not I&II.

Since I'm lawyering already, the cheater should take a hard look at what the school policy describes as cheating. (S)He might find that what they did can be argued not to fit the definition or that the school doesn't have sufficient evidence to prove it did.
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It actually says "any OTHER sanction or sanctions that the hearing panel deems just and fair under the circumstances," which, although implicitly, states that it is both just and fair to either expell or suspend a student in response to a violation of the honor code...
 
I feel reasonably comfortable sharing given I got my MD three years ago now: During my second year of medical school, we had quizzes about once a month on different aspects of the physical exam. They were completely inane, asking minutiae that I guarantee most attendings wouldn't have any clue about.

For those quizzes, I would get together with my friends (a good dozen of us), we would brainstorm the answers, and one person would bite the bullet and take it. He'd get his score, and the rest of us would then sequentially submit it with corrections. We'd take turns being the patsy.

I also know there were a number of other groups that did the same. I like to think that my participation in that activity has no bearing on my current ethics a half dozen years later.

Here's my point: none of us had any expectation of expulsion if we were caught collaborating on those quizzes. They're take home open book online quizzes for God's sake. I fully anticipate that if we had gotten caught, we'd have been in trouble. Perhaps a zero on all the quizzes. Maybe a nasty note in our files.

We knew it was wrong. But expecting expulsion? That's like expecting a thermonuclear response to a thrown rock. Or the death penalty for speeding. No way. I can't believe if the OP was in a similar situation but got caught that the first thing that comes to mind is expulsion. That's why I assume there must be something else.
 
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Goro said:
OK, a little homework assignment for those of you who are Med students.

Can you dig up your student handbooks and let us know what is the penalty for cheating at your school?

Does your school have a policy?

Does your school have a death penalty for cheating?

Is it automatic?

I am curious to see if any school out there has the wording " the penalty for cheating will be dismissal"
Click to expand...

"The attempt of any student to pass any examination by improper means, present work which the student has not performed, or aid and abet a student in any dishonest act may may result in disciplinary action including immediate dismissal."

I'm pretty positive that it's a case by case basis at my school, but I do know at least 3 students in the class under me were immediately dismissed during first year for various forms of cheating. I don't know what would happen 4th year, as I'm not familiar with anyone having done anything that breaks our ethics code in clinical years.
 
SSJimmer7 said:
It actually says "any OTHER sanction or sanctions that the hearing panel deems just and fair under the circumstances," which, although implicitly, states that it is both just and fair to either expell or suspend a student in response to a violation of the honor code...
Click to expand...

The statement implies that "just and fair" is only relevant when an "other" sanction is considered. While your interpretation could be viable, it's not the primary one and if it was the intended meaning could have been more clearly and easily stated with another wording.

Your interpretation is what they actually meant, they just didn't say it exactly right.
 
Raryn said:
I feel reasonably comfortable sharing given I got my MD three years ago now: During my second year of medical school, we had quizzes about once a month on different aspects of the physical exam. They were completely inane, asking minutiae that I guarantee most attendings wouldn't have any clue about.

For those quizzes, I would get together with my friends (a good dozen of us), we would brainstorm the answers, and one person would bite the bullet and take it. He'd get his score, and the rest of us would then sequentially submit it with corrections. We'd take turns being the patsy.

I also know there were a number of other groups that did the same. I like to think that my participation in that activity has no bearing on my current ethics a half dozen years later.

Here's my point: none of us had any expectation of expulsion if we were caught collaborating on those quizzes. They're take home open book online quizzes for God's sake. I fully anticipate that if we had gotten caught, we'd have been in trouble. Perhaps a zero on all the quizzes. Maybe a nasty note in our files.

We knew it was wrong. But expecting expulsion? That's like expecting a thermonuclear response to a thrown rock. Or the death penalty for speeding. No way. I can't believe if the OP was in a similar situation but got caught that the first thing that comes to mind is expulsion. That's why I assume there must be something else.
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and there lies the whole argument in this thread. punishment does not fit what he has divulged to us
 
the opinions are clearly split on this issue. i'd give our colleague reasonable doubt. i'd hope that when one of you guys make a mistake whether in training or afterwards that people give you the benefit of the doubt without assuming the worst.
 
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HelpPleaseMD said:
the opinions are clearly split on this issue. i'd give our colleague reasonable doubt. i'd hope that when one of you guys make a mistake whether in training or afterwards that people give you the benefit of the doubt without assuming the worst.
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Our colleague cheated. And got dismissed. So I ask you. How comfortable do you feel with that doctor backing you up?


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JustDOit2020 said:
Our colleague cheated. And got dismissed. So I ask you. How comfortable do you feel with that doctor backing you up?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
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Dear holier than thou future colleague,

A hell of a lot more comfortable than I would feel with a self-righteous jack-ass at my side.

Sincerely,
someone who actually matriculated
 
JustDOit2020 said:
Our colleague cheated. And got dismissed. So I ask you. How comfortable do you feel with that doctor backing you up?
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If it's true that this was a one time only infraction on something as stupid as some online quiz 4th year that probably didn't count for anything, I'd be comfortable with it. The problem here is that we don't really know if that's true. Is what OP did wrong? Absolutely, and he should be punished for it. But the people on here pretending like OP is some dastardly criminal who can never be trusted again because he cheated once on a probably pointless/useless 4th year quiz need to get off their high horse and join the rest of us in reality.
 
dadaddadaBATMAN said:
Dear holier than thou future colleague,

A hell of a lot more comfortable than I would feel with a self-righteous jack-ass at my side.

Sincerely,
someone who actually matriculated
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Gotta agree with this but the people saying that there's probably more to the story

I remember being mad about that cleveland clinic guy losing his degree but then I read about all the stuff he did
 
Psai said:
Gotta agree with this but the people saying that there's probably more to the story

I remember being mad about that cleveland clinic guy losing his degree but then I read about all the stuff he did
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These threads always generate too many replies to read, but if you look back a bit you'll see the post where I agree with you.

That response was in pretty poor taste, I just got a little annoyed by captain kohlberg stage 2.
 
dadaddadaBATMAN said:
Dear holier than thou future colleague,

A hell of a lot more comfortable than I would feel with a self-righteous jack-ass at my side.

Sincerely,
someone who actually matriculated
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Ohhhhh the old SDN go-to: I'm a year or two ahead of you, so when I don't like something that comes out of your mouth I fall back on that.
 
...The attempt of any medical student to present as his/her own work that he/she has not honestly performed is regarded by the faculty and administration as a very serious offense and renders the offender liable to severe consequences including possible suspension or dismissal...
 
lets be honest, those OSCEs are always a cheat fest. students who have the largest groups of friends always know all the questions and that inadvertently is discussed right before the start. and that just makes me feel like *urf*
the school doesnt bother, perhaps because this would not be an individual but entire groups.

unfortunately, this school is going really far to wreck OP's career. but its not surprising at all. u can tell many of the "administrators" arounds oftenhave very regimented and extremist views who also automatically assume guilt and presume that the OP has a historical track record of "something else".

when u are up against the older generation whom have, not of any fault, burned out and developed significant cyncism over the years, its always going to be an uphill battle.

i hope OP comes back and updates us?
thank you.
 
JustDOit2020 said:
Ohhhhh the old SDN go-to: I'm a year or two ahead of you, so when I don't like something that comes out of your mouth I fall back on that.
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Because the things coming out of your mouth are wrong. Because you have no experience and no perspective. Because you are a year or two behind.
 
This is not difficult.

1. A MS4 probably should not be dismissed over this infraction, particularly with no previously established pattern of misbehavior.

2. In the OP's example, he/she was dismissed.

3. It is reasonable to assume that either the OP is willfully withholding important mitigating information that clarifies why such a punishment was doled out, or the administration has information of which the OP is unaware.

I don't think too many people on here truly think immediate expulsion should be the OP's fate......unless the OP has not given us the complete story that the administration had, which, like I said previously, is almost certainly always the case.

We are not saying we truly believe the OP should be expelled because "one time cheating = a pattern of bad behavior" (although that certainly may be true). We are saying that we almost certainly do not have the whole story, and that if he/she was expelled, then working backwards we can deduce a very high likelihood that the OP gave the administration significantly more fodder for dismissal than they are telling us.
 
Sounds like time for pharmaceutical or medical equipment sales OP... Good money there I hear.
 
JustDOit2020 said:
Ohhhhh the old SDN go-to: I'm a year or two ahead of you, so when I don't like something that comes out of your mouth I fall back on that.
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You asked how comfortable your colleagues would be with a person who cheated on an online quiz backing them up.

I would not be surprised to find that most of my colleagues had at some point in their lives cheated on a minor quiz or some equivalently silly exercise. That doesn't really bother me, so long as they don't do something similar when it matters.

What does bother me is someone who legitimately thinks an offense that minor justifies expulsion in and of itself, which you implied.
I would not be comfortable having a person like that "backing me up" because I would expect them to put a knife in me when I committed some perceived offense.

Your complete lack of relevant experience just makes the whole thing that much more irritating. That, and the fact that your hypothetical had been posed several times already in the thread in various different phrasings.
 
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