MSAR And GPA Percentiles

[Confused2626]

So for most schools, the 90th percentile GPA is 4.0 in both Science and Non Science.

Does anybody find this hard to believe that this is only the 90th percentile? I only know of one person who has a straight up 4.0, can it be true that 10% of applicants really have 4.0's? That is incredible.

I don't think its a result of the same few people applying to a lot of schools, just because this seems pretty consistent.

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[ZeusonRoids]

So for most schools, the 90th percentile GPA is 4.0 in both Science and Non Science.

Does anybody find this hard to believe that this is only the 90th percentile? I only know of one person who has a straight up 4.0, can it be true that 10% of applicants really have 4.0's? That is incredible.

I don't think its a result of the same few people applying to a lot of schools, just because this seems pretty consistent.

I think they only measure to the nearest tenth so I think they are probably rounding up a 3.95+ to a 4.0.

I know plenty of people who have only had one B+ or a couple A- grades through undergrad.

 

[Aggro]

Well, it's the accepted applicants, not the total # of applicants. If you think about, 25 people being accepted with 4.0s (which are rounded, as just mentioned) isn't that outrageous.

 

[Confused2626]

I think they only measure to the nearest tenth so I think they are probably rounding up a 3.95+ to a 4.0.

I know plenty of people who have only had one B+ or a couple A- grades through undergrad.

If they are rounding up, that makes a lot more sense.

Yes, I agree, I know a lot of people with a few B+ or A- and are definitely in the 3.9's, but a straight up 4.0 is a rare breed.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I don't think they're rounding much, if at all. There are plenty of 4.0's around.

 

[funkymunkytoes]

OP, your SDN username fits the thread topic nicely. Yea, MSAR is craaaaaazzzyyyy.

 

[pietachok]

There are so many reasons for an overwhelming # of 4.0's...

-neurotic pre-meds, some of whom lead very boring lives.
-grade inflation
-students who took all easy classes outside of their pre-med pre-reqs
-how few students it takes to make up 10% of the admits at any given school
etc.

According to AMCAS, 23,850 students applied between 2005-2007 w/ a GPA above a 3.8. 74.1% of them were accepted (higher than any other group).
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2008/mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt.htm

If you look at the Standard Deviations (SD) for the GPA distributions, you can see the validity of the GPA's and be reassured that you still have a chance of getting in 🙂. The vast majority of the class will be included in 2 SD's away from the mean, but you have lots of schools where if you ADD 2 SD's to the mean, you get above a 4.0 (obv. impossible). This is b/c the acceptees aren't a bell curve, and there are a lot of admits who are much further below the mean than there are at an equivalent position above the mean...
...so the point is, don't worry...however many 4.0's there are, there are as many students who are on the opposite end of that spectrum but with lower GPA's than you'd expect to be competitive from reading SDN! (I am one of them, for instance...got into a school I statistically shouldn't have and I'm not a URM and don't feel like I had anything too exceptional going on).
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2008/2008mcatgpa.htm

 

[lrkoehle]

There are so many reasons for an overwhelming # of 4.0's...

-grade inflation

How would this occur? I thought AMCAS recalculated GPA, does this mean the MSAR is reporting the student's undergrad GPA which could be inflated? Perhaps I am just missing the meaning of grade inflation. I thought it was a school where an A+ was like a 4.33.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Grade inflation just means the school makes it really easy for people to get A's.

 

[fahimaz7]

I don't think they're rounding much, if at all. There are plenty of 4.0's around.

👍

 

[BlueElmo]

I don't think they're rounding much, if at all. There are plenty of 4.0's around.

Yeah. Thank god for that standardized thing called the MCAT.

 

[ButImLETired]

Also, there are plenty of schools out there that don't have +'s or -'s and only have full A, B, and C grades. In my opinion those make it easier to get a 4.0 because if you're the type who usually hovers around the lower 90s, chances are you'll get that 4.0 more often than not, especially if they curve tests.

 

[Confused2626]

Also, there are plenty of schools out there that don't have +'s or -'s and only have full A, B, and C grades. In my opinion those make it easier to get a 4.0 because if you're the type who usually hovers around the lower 90s, chances are you'll get that 4.0 more often than not, especially if they curve tests.

That's how my school is...the A, AB, B, BC etc...but still the 4.0 is really unheard of. Granted, I am an engineer and don't really know pre-meds so that could be it too.

 

[Confused2626]

I guess another astounding statistic is "% Community service/volunteer".

Hardly any schools break 80%, many are at 60%, does this really mean 40% of accepted students have no volunteer experience or community service?

Either MSAR is a misleading tool or SDN clearly does not represent the average pre-med

 

[lrkoehle]

I guess another astounding statistic is "% Community service/volunteer".

Hardly any schools break 80%, many are at 60%, does this really mean 40% of accepted students have no volunteer experience or community service?

Either MSAR is a misleading tool or SDN clearly does not represent the average pre-med

This is something I always wondered about too. I can understand something like research, but volunteer work or clinical experience is something that I thought was essentially required to even be considered.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I guess another astounding statistic is "% Community service/volunteer".

Hardly any schools break 80%, many are at 60%, does this really mean 40% of accepted students have no volunteer experience or community service?

Either MSAR is a misleading tool or SDN clearly does not represent the average pre-med

Perhaps they list it as something else??? Work experience or other perhaps?

 

[JJMrK]

I guess another astounding statistic is "% Community service/volunteer".

Hardly any schools break 80%, many are at 60%, does this really mean 40% of accepted students have no volunteer experience or community service?

Either MSAR is a misleading tool or SDN clearly does not represent the average pre-med

I randomly flipped the MSAR to University of Maryland. 67% have community service/volunteer work, while 86% have medically related work. My guess is that the medically related work category also describes clinical volunteering, not necessarily just paid work.

 

[Lukkie]

I randomly flipped the MSAR to University of Maryland. 67% have community service/volunteer work, while 86% have medically related work. My guess is that the medically related work category also describes clinical volunteering, not necessarily just paid work.

this would be my assumption as well... most schools have over 80% "Medically Related Work". i highly doubt 80% of acceptees actually did paid medical work. the data was 'self-reported to amcas' so my guess is people just filled in the boxes without thinking about it too much, and AMCAS did a bad job describing it.

 

[anbuitachi]

ive yet to hear of anyone who had 4.0 here applying to med school!

 

[BlueElmo]

ive yet to hear of anyone who had 4.0 here applying to med school!

You see plenty of them around here at SDN.

 

[WashMe]

You see plenty of them around here at SDN.

many are close but few have a 4.0

I wonder if they calculated the percentiles based on the assumption of a Gaussian distribution of GPAs (which is wrong). The percentiles would be messed up because of the ceiling effect whereby there is a long tail of low GPA's, many people falling between 3.4-3.8, and nobody able to get above 4.0. The standard deviation would be large, thus 1-2 S.D. above the mean might indicate a score at or above 4.0 (thus 4.0 would be reported).

Of course, it is possible that they actually looked at the specific GPA of every single person who fell right at the top 10% every single school...

 

[ChubbyChaser]

ive yet to hear of anyone who had 4.0 here applying to med school!

I know of 1 personally (yet to get in)..and a few on SDN.

 

[branch]

Do schools look at how rigorous your university courseload is?

 

[WashMe]

Do schools look at how rigorous your university courseload is?

not when you get a 4.0/40Q, d*mn son. Ontario FTW 👍

 

[lrkoehle]

Do schools look at how rigorous your university courseload is?

I believe they do. I mean it would be impossible for them not to if they look at your transcripts. When they are reviewing your application in any detail, I imagine they pretty much have to look through your transcripts to see what grades you got in which specific courses, and thus they will see your course loads for each semester.

 

[rocketbooster]

Also, there are plenty of schools out there that don't have +'s or -'s and only have full A, B, and C grades. In my opinion those make it easier to get a 4.0 because if you're the type who usually hovers around the lower 90s, chances are you'll get that 4.0 more often than not, especially if they curve tests.

this is false. in the end, both grade systems average out. while any A will give that person a 4.0, any B will give a 3.0 for that grade. those with +/- get scammed with the A- being a 3.7 or whatever, but then get rewarded with having a B+ being a 3.3-3.4.

ALSO, I have been at schools with both systems. the school I'm at now has a +/- system. an A- isn't actually a straight 90-93% in the class. it only follows that pattern AFTER the teacher curves the 100% mark to the highest grade in the class. so, all of the grades get bumped up since no one has a 100% in the class. so, you may had an 88%, thus a B+, before the teacher curves it to the highest grade in the class. after the curve, your grade is bumped to like a 91% and you have an A-, thus a 3.7 over a 3.4.

the samething happens with no +/e. you have an 88% that would give you a 3.0 without the curve, but then with the curve you have a 91% which gives you a 4.0.

in the end, both systems are really the same. I suppose it would be easier to get a 4.0 without +/-s, but then the B student also has it easier getting a 3.0 while the +/- B student has it easier to get a 3.5.

 

[rocketbooster]

Do schools look at how rigorous your university courseload is?

yeah, but they don't see what teachers you take and, even if they did, they wouldn't know who the harder teacher was.

so, in other words, there's no reason to take the harder gen chem teacher, UNLESS you think you'll actually LEARN way more through him/her. for actually getting into med school, though, I hate to say this but high GPA trumps taking harder,better classes that result in a lower gpa

 

[lrkoehle]

yeah, but they don't see what teachers you take and, even if they did, they wouldn't know who the harder teacher was.

so, in other words, there's no reason to take the harder gen chem teacher, UNLESS you think you'll actually LEARN way more through him/her. for actually getting into med school, though, I hate to say this but high GPA trumps taking harder,better classes that result in a lower gpa

A harder version of the same course will not get you any further, but a harder overall course load is better. I'm not saying a hard course load will make up for a 3.2 GPA, but you better believe a 3.8 while taking hard science classes is better than a 3.9 in an easy major with the bare minimum sciences. For instance, I got A+'s in all the basic science prereqs but a B in p chem and A's or A-'s in other upper division sciences, however, this is a better indicator to med schools that I can actually handle the sciences, instead of a basket weaving major with minimum sciences. In the end, med schools want students that they know can handle hard science classes, so yes a hard course load helps you because it will be a better indicator of future success in med school.