MSFC Nt'l Conference

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rachana

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Did anyone go to last year's Medical Students for Choice national conference? or is going to this year's for that matter? Just curious if people felt it was worthwhile and enjoyed it as I'm going to this year's in April.... thanks.
 
i went last year to Seattle and it was amazing. a really good time with lots of great talks. and this year should be even better seeing how it is going to be in New Orleans. seriously, all the different talks and activities going on is great. i'll be going again this year most likely. i can't wait. cheers.
 
Sorry, but what is this conference all abt? Thanks.
 
great big gathering of pro-abortion folks.........maybe talk abou the latest tools to suction out babies. You know fun stuff like that.

later
 
why do people think an organization called medical students for choice is only pro-abortion? pro-choice is just that...CHOICE. the organization supports women who choose adoption, parenthood, or abortion with their pregnancies. Maybe if you attended a conference or a meeting you would know this. My chapter is going to visit a midwife practice in a couple weeks. I don't see how this can be related to being pro-abortion at all. We're going to learn about natural childbirth and options for labor and delivery that many medical students are never exposed to.

Oh, and I'm thinking about attending the conference in New Orleans but I haven't booked a ticket yet.
 
So, if someone CHOOSES abortion you are pro-that choice (abortion)............you are pro-adoption, pro-parenthood, pro-abortion etc.....you aren't anti-abortion are you?

just reiterating that pro-choice does NOT mean pro-abortion right?

It means pro-choices........including abortion.......hmmmmm

later
 
Originally posted by 12R34Y
So, if someone CHOOSES abortion you are pro-that choice (abortion)............you are pro-adoption, pro-parenthood, pro-abortion etc.....you aren't anti-abortion are you?

just reiterating that pro-choice does NOT mean pro-abortion right?

It means pro-choices........including abortion.......hmmmmm

later

Look, we probably shouldn't get into a flame war but I was just trying to stipulate that MSFC is not ONLY pro-abortion. It is an organization that, as you stated, is pro-choices. There are people in the organization that may themselves be "anti-abortion" but they do not push their opinions down the throats of others and realize that abortion happens whether it is legal or not so having safe options is better than the alternative.
 
this isn't worth the flame war that will inevitably ensue.........agree to disagree and i'll personally be moving on.

later
 
So since you guys are arguing abt this....and since one of you states that it is PRO-choice....so what abt pro-LIFE? does your oprganization support that? And if not--then don't say it's a PRO-choice organization--cuz it clearly is not! Thanks
 
Hi, have you read either of my other posts? Both state that the organization supports women who CHOOSE to have their babies and either keep them (parenthood) or give them up for adoption. In fact, at a regional conference I just went to Planned Parenthood came and spoke about the ins-and-outs of adoption (both through private and public sector organizations) and there was a lecture about teenagers who CHOSE TO KEEP their babies.

You tell me how that doesn't support a woman who CHOOSES to keep her baby. So clearly it is, Thanks,
 
couldn't resist................

NOBODY SHOULD THINK PLANNEd PARENTHOOD IS ANYTHING BUT AN ABORTION CASH COW!

people don't go to planned parenthood for prenatal care throughout their pregnancy. they go for one reason.........to get birth control or to abort a baby.

last year planned parenthood aborted approximately 250,000 babies and only referred approximately 1,900 for adoption....you tell me how much they support adoption.........

guess what....adoption doesn't make them bajillions of dollars does it?

later
 
Look, MSFC is just that. Its medical students who support the right to choose, no matter what that choice is. Period. There is no hidden message, no hidden agenda to kill babies like you want to believe. It merely means we support a womans right to choose whether she believes she wants to continue her pregnancy or not.

You make choices every day of your life, so I am not going to go into an exhaustive explanation what a choice is. Let me just give you an example though. Lets say you are at the supermarket and you are looking at the yellow cheese and the white cheese. Now, surely you are going to have to make a choice. And I suspect, unless you live in a bubble, you have to make choices hundreds of times per day. So now hopefully it is clear what a choice is.

So yes, there may be pro-life members of MSFC. There is nothing wrong with that. It is a choice they have made for THEMSELVES...I want to emphasize that because appearently that point didn't make itself clear the first time. But that is a choice they have personally made for themselves. It is not a choice they have made for their patients. Just because they personally believe in pro-life for themselves, they still support their patients whether they choose to keep the pregnancy or end it.

And that doesn't even mean that they would perform an abortion. But it does mean that they are supportive of their patients decision no matter what it is. What it means in the end is that they would help their patients come to a personal decision and if that choice is to end the pregnancy, then that physician would supply the patient with all the resources and help she needs to carry out her choice.

So where does that leave this issue. Just agree to disagree like the previous poster said. There is seldom an opinion that is going to change on this issue.
 
there is no ethical or legal obligation to provide women with referrals to abortion providers. Many doctors I work with will absolutely under NO circumstance refer to an abortion provider.

that is tantamount to saying............."I personally wouldn't kill a baby, but there is a friend of mine down the street who would love to.......here is is number."

Don't you think that sounds a little wierd?

basically, I CHOOSE NOT to facilitate an abortion in any way, shape,or form..........

see, I guess I am pro-choice....you should have no problem agreeing with me now.

It is also the patient's CHOICE! to walk out of my office and find someone to do it......i won't have the blood on my hands though..........BY CHOICE.

later
 
Hey there-
I will be at the conference in New Orleans. The Western Regional Conference in Tucson this year was awesome and I am stoked about the the Nat'l Conference.

The thing that bothers me the most about people like 12R34Y is that they go out of their way to pass judgement on others who disagree with their belief system. Personally, I have no problems with people who do not support abortion. What troubles me is when people try to apply their personal "beliefs and morals" to everyone under the sun, rather than giving people a choice in what to believe or practice. I thought this was the hallmark of our democracy- that we can choose to have our own opinions and ideas, and live life they way that we want to without someone dictating to us how to do it.

This is a pretty interesting site if you have time, it walks through all sides of the abortion issue. http://www.pro-truths.org/
peace.
UC
 
Excellent website...........it basically states a hundred times that you (pro-abortion folks) are losing the battle and need to fight........

granted you're losing, but you are welcome to continue fighting.

By the way.........Roman catholicism is the religion they choose to talk about and Christianity disagrees with catholicism in many many areas.........Not the same thing....

the website essentially exposes their ignorance in huge ways. My wife and I read and were greatly amused.

There are old earth and new earth christians........not every one believes the eart his a few thousand years old.....

website is a joke and quite funny.

thanks though.

later

oh, and isn't your "belief system" being pushed on me. You are saying that I CANNOT have the opinion that I disagree with abortion..........aren't you....how can you say you are pro-choices........your only pro abortion in reality. you only support people who make YOUR choices.........that is to make the choice that abortion is OKay. that is not my choice.

this wonderful democracy also legislates and tells me that I can't do a whole bunch of stuff. I can't run red lights, kill or rape....

your argument blows.

later
 
12R34Y appears to be one of those people who believe that making inflammatory comments about this issue will get him a free pass into heaven. Rather than use the jargon you keep getting shoved down your throat at church why don't you formulate a sound argument on your own 12R34Y?
 
If you read the website....pro-truth that he posted........it says that the practice of pro-abortion folks is inflammatory and threatening, derogatory..........they say it is a must.

just giving my opinions. I thought everyone here was pro-choices........YET YOU DO NOT LIKE MY OPINION SO I"M BEING DEROGATORY. you are the opposite of pro-choice.......you are pro-abortion and anti-life.

later
 
Originally posted by 12R34Y

there is no ethical or legal obligation to provide women with referrals to abortion providers. Many doctors I work with will absolutely under NO circumstance refer to an abortion provider.

people don't go to planned parenthood for prenatal care throughout their pregnancy.
last year planned parenthood aborted approximately 250,000 babies and only referred approximately 1,900 for adoption....
you tell me how much they support adoption.........

later

ummm, actually, both of those two statements are wrong. depending where you work, you may be both ethically and legally obligated to explain to your patient all the options available to them. you are of course under no obligation to PERFORM any procedures, but you must refer out if you are unwilling/unable to explain the options available. Like I said, this varies depending on where you work.

(along those same lines, I would hope that you would give your patients all the options available to them REGARDLESS as to what their medical need was - it is a disservice to your patients to ignore their autonomy in medical decision making).

secondly, as far as I know, most planned parenthood affiliates do offer prenatal treatment, and is a great option for people who fall in the category of "working poor" and do not qualify for government subsidised health care, yet have no health insurance of their own.

by far the largest proportion of health care services offered by planned partenthood is contraceptive (31%), abortion services are actually 3% of the total. [data can be found from Title X funding resources on the web] If they really only wanted to do more abortions, you would think they would offer a whole lot less contraceptives so there would be that many more unwanted pregnancies, huh? 😉

anyway, it is fine for you if you are anti-choice. organizations like med students for choice are there to encourage those of us that do believe that women are smart enough to make appropriate decisions for themselves.

Back to the OP-
I would like to go to the conference - but I haven't made any commitments yet. I've heard it's a really great opportunity from others that went last year.

🙂
 
you are under NO LEGAL OR ETHICAL obligation to refer someone to an abortionist............this isn't up for argument.

that is fact.

it does not matter where you work.

it will never hold up in court. can't force someone to do something against their religion...........REMEMBER FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

later
 
pwrpfgrl -

\organizations like med students for choice are there to encourage those of us that do believe that women are smart enough to make appropriate decisions for themselves/

if women were smart enough to make appropriate decisions for themselves, they probably wouldn't be seeking the help of an abortion clinic in the first place.
 
hi,

merlin, jbish, UCSFFreak, pwrpfgrl, thanks for your responses! Hope to see you at the conference.

to everyone else: the great thing about this issue and being a future doctor is that i don't have to debate it with everyone & their mom to have an effect on women's health... i can help women directly with my medical training.

have a great day!
 
Originally posted by drvechman
if women were smart enough to make appropriate decisions for themselves, they probably wouldn't be seeking the help of an abortion clinic in the first place. [/B]

This is the central point to the abortion issue. Pro-abortion ideas are often spun as pro-choice by saying that a woman should have the right to make decisions regarding her own body. I agree that a woman should have a right to choose but she (as with all people) must accept responsibility for her choices. In the vast majority of cases her choices led to pregnancy.

Helping those we serve as physicians make good choices is key in really treating and healing people rather than just treating pathologies. Are we doctors or technicians? Be the illness diabetes, obesity, alcoholism, heart disease or whatever, each of the patients choices carries a consequence. Each choice has real effects and in the end procedures and prescriptions will not overcome poor choices. Patients need to undersand that and we fail as physicians if they don't.

As for abortion the choice was made when the woman engaged in inappropriate intercourse. Except in extreme cases such as rape or incest, abortion is an attempt to escape the consequence of ones actions. It is a blantant refusal to take responsibility akin to a spoiled teenager calling on daddy's money, clout or lawyer to avoid punishment for bad behavior. One must take responsibility for one's choices.

So, does abortion have a place in medical practice? Yes, it fits in extreme situations involving rape, incest, and where severe complications during pregnancy would seem gaurantee the death of the mother. It should not be a common procedure preformed simply for the convenience of the irresponsible. It should not be an easy out for those who trumpet thier freedom of choice but refuse understand the choices have consequences.

It is self deception to believe that by "alleviating" the physical consequences of inappropriate sex we are truly helping those who, as physicians, we have committed to serve. No amount of skill on the part of the physician can remove the emotional repercussions of abortion. Nor can terminating unwanted pregnancies alleviate the societal problems associated with so called "casual sex" and the manipulative attitudes toward all relationships it fosters.

Simply put, with out true responsibility there can be no real freedom of choice. There is much more we can do here and simply announcing "I'm free to choose" is not it.
 
Originally posted by JumpShot
"As for abortion the choice was made when the woman engaged in inappropriate intercourse."

It takes two people to have sex. Whatever your viewpoint, let's give the men involved some responsibility for their "inappropriate" actions.

At planned parenthood they do more than abortions, as someone else said they provide low cost birth control. They provide ultrasounds, free pregnancy tests, pap smears, colposcopies, and LEEP procedures. All of these tests/procedures are MUCH below the cost if you went to a physician's office.
 
Originally posted by kem
Originally posted by JumpShot
It takes two people to have sex. Whatever your viewpoint, let's give the men involved some responsibility for their "inappropriate" actions.

Absolutely! In fact, in this area I think often times it is the men whose choices become more damning to society than the women.

Cavalier attitudes towards sex and an adolescent machismo (sp?) tend to turn the sexual experience into a conquest. Men (and women too) become manipulators and never develop a real relationship. The actors never figure out who they or the other person actually is. Instead each act is calculated as a step to satisfy a physical desire but the falsehoods never truly statisfy the emotional aspects that are also involved.

When manipulation no longer works coercion takes its place and society ends up with, in the extreme, rape. More often though the other person is objectified, made into something that is "owned" and must be controlled. Abuse in all it's forms follows and most often it is the woman takes the brunt of the suffering.

Further, and this pertains more to the "weekend hookup", casual sex seldom satiates anything more than the physical desire. It is incomplete and people feel there should be something more -- that something is missing. Unwilling or unable to work to develop any sort of a real relationship outside of bed, people start resorting to all sort of crazy, weird stuff to try to make the sex better -- to fill in the part that is missing -- and it never really works. In its extreme this leads to the strange deviant behavior. More commonly though these attitudes pervade into marriage and result in divorce.

Now these are broad generalizations and as such can't be applied to every individual instance. However, it applies to society as a whole.

Finally, my intent is not to enrage anyone or druge up a dogmatic moral debate. I do think though that as a society we need to have a much more serious view of sex and make better choices. There is much more involved here than just the act of copulation.
 
Having worked at PP for five years before med school, I can assure you that abortion is not its "cash cow". In fact, the affiliate where I worked consistently lost money on all services, including abortions, because of the extreme level of poverty in my area. And, I guess, the extreme level of female irresponsibility...

Alas, the question that I have for all of the anti-choice folks is why is it OK to have an abortion in the case of rape/incest/mother's life endangerment?

If you truly see abortion as "murder", why is "murder" justified under these circumstances? I have never understood this logic. This viewpoint indicates to me that murder is justified when bad things happen to people. If murder=bad, and abortion=murder, then why is murder OK sometimes?

I look forward to all of the rational responses!
 
Originally posted by LloydDObler
Alas, the question that I have for all of the anti-choice folks is why is it OK to have an abortion in the case of rape/incest/mother's life endangerment?

If you truly see abortion as "murder", why is "murder" justified under these circumstances? I have never understood this logic. This viewpoint indicates to me that murder is justified when bad things happen to people. If murder=bad, and abortion=murder, then why is murder OK sometimes?

I look forward to all of the rational responses!

I don't know that you could get a rational response based on that argument. In my mind the absolute abortion=murder argument is too simplistic to be realistically applied. I'm not sure it even works in theory and I am positive it doesn't work in practice. Individual situations are too varied.

My thinking is that the choice should be made before conception rather than after. In the case of rape and incest the woman was robbed of her decision and should not be robbed again. In cases where the mothers life is at stake ... well ... what a difficult decision to have to make!

Still I don't think we should sell the myth that you can just dash into the clinic, have an abortion and catch a show that night. Its more difficult than that as the consequences extend beyond the physical (see previous post).

Sex should be a deliberate decision between two responsible committed adults. I support Planned Parenthood, religions, and other organizations as far as they help people understand the seriousness of making the decision to have sex and teach them how to do it responsibly.

However, we need to get away from the myth that we can escape the consequences of our actions. Despite the skill of physicans, the craftiness of lawyers, or "daddy's money" it just isn't so.
 
for those on this thread that seem to think planned parenthood is NOT making money on abortions.............this comes from the planned parenthood websites and CNN.

When it comes to pregnant women deciding between abortion and adoption, more than 98 percent of those women seeking counsel from Planned Parenthood Federation of America ended their pregnancies with abortion in 2000, according to data collected by the organization.

Meanwhile, the number of adoption referrals by PPFA fell for the fourth consecutive year in 2000, to fewer than 2,500.

During the same year, Planned Parenthood clinics around the country performed almost 200,000 abortions, according to statistics available on the organization's Internet website.

Stated another way, Planned Parenthood abortionists performed almost 80 abortions for every adoption referral the organization made in 2000, the data show.

According to Planned Parenthood, there were 9,200 adoption referrals in 1997, but that number had dropped to 2,486 by 2000.


BIG MONEY IN ABORTION

According to the Planned Parenthood website, the organization performed 197,070 abortions in 2000, representing tens of millions of dollars annually for the group in a single year.

Officials with PPFA did not respond to repeated telephone calls seeking comment for this article, but a female CNSNews.com staffer who contacted one of the group's abortion clinics Tuesday was informed that the cost of an abortion starts at more than $300.

According to Planned Parenthood of Metropolitan Washington, D.C., the price of an abortion for a woman who's been pregnant for 12 weeks or less is $325. At 13 weeks, the price rises to $350, with still higher prices for women who are further along in their pregnancies.

Using an average cost of $350 for an abortion, PPFA would have taken in nearly $69 million for abortions in 2000.

ABORTIONS ACCOUNTED FOR 30% of planned parenthoods income.

Estimates that since 1977, PPFA has made $815 million from an estimated 3 million abortions.
 
wow! looks like abortion just might be making planned parenthood more money than some third world countries GNP.

don't kill the messenger..............this is straight from planned parenthood's statistics and CNN.

later
 
Could you provide the link to the CNN article where you got some of this info?
Thanks.
 
This came from JumpShot:
"abortion is an attempt to escape the consequence of ones actions. It is a blantant refusal to take responsibility"

So how is any attempt at medically managing an overweight patient's insulin not a refusal by the patient to take responsibility for his/her weight? Why should we prescribe statins so freely when most people can and should change their own diet - with the few exceptions? Why don't we deny all morbidly obese patients the chance at bariatric surgery? Why do we treat HIV, chlamydia, gonorrhea, or god-forbid syphilis? Why do we give liver transplants to alcoholics? WHy do we repair GSWs in known gang members?

With the few exceptions of genetic disorders and crimes, most diseases are diseases of choice. You have basically decided to pick on abortion because of your skewed view of the subject matter. If you truly believe in ANYTHING you have said about choice leading to a consequence, you would be in the business of preaching instead the business of healing. That is where most anti-choice physicians should really be anyway. Sex is picked over and over by churches because any attempt at abstinence only reduces the number of church followers. If one can gain so much weight that he/she can just "bud" off another human being, organized religions would probably teach you to be anti-diet and anti-exercise too.

The sad thing is, all religions intend no harm. It's the people who practice them without ever questioning whether the leaders of these religions deserve to lead that do the most harm. Plus those who use God and religion as their excuse for irresponsible behavior (see the "ex"alcoholic in the white house).
 
amen tofurious.

To add on to that, most of us light-skinned people out there know about the dangers of the sun, yet we still tan and enjoy outdoor activities. Now be warned, if you're light skinned, a get melanoma in 15 years don't go to doctors asking for them to remove your primary and definitely don't ask for a SSL dissection to see if the cancer has progressed. Because that was your responsibility/fault for enjoying the outdoors.
 
if women were smart enough to make appropriate decisions for themselves, they probably wouldn't be seeking the help of an abortion clinic in the first place.

If this is what you truly believe I am amazed you managed to make it past the interview. Such a view is not only completely outdated and patriarchal but is truly a liability to the care that you intend to give your future patients and I am personally ashamed that this view survives among upcoming physicians. I mean, stop and think about the statement you just made...It shows a complete utter lack of any type of understanding of who your patients might be and detachment from mainstream society. Plenty of married women in long term committed relationships using contraception have unplanned pregnancies. This fact is not debatable. Truly these women were making an appropriate and responsible decision engaging in sex. Or were they not? Contraception (even if used correctly) is not always going to be 100% effective. I don't at all believe that every time you have sex, you should be expecting a child 9 months later...planned or unplanned...

Now, I will not disagree with the fact that many pregnancies happen due to improper use of contraception, condoms being a big culprit...but then if your patient comes into your office with an unplanned pregnancy from improper use of a condom, maybe you weren't at some point smart enough to teach him/her how to use one properly in the first place. Cause isn't that in the realm of responsibility of a doctor? You wouldn't just give an asthmatic an inhaler without teaching S/He how to use it? So maybe that woman who just showed up at your clinic was "smart enough to make an appropriate decision for herself," and it was your lack of patient education that has her coming in...just an example.

And one last thought. People have sex. Again; its a fact. What you need to do is realize that sex happens...

Of course, with that attitude, it probably doesn't happen all that often for you. Cheers.
 
Originally posted by 12R34Y:
"When it comes to pregnant women deciding between abortion and adoption, more than 98 percent of those women seeking counsel from Planned Parenthood Federation of America ended their pregnancies with abortion in 2000, according to data collected by the organization.

Meanwhile, the number of adoption referrals by PPFA fell for the fourth consecutive year in 2000, to fewer than 2,500"

The argument "Planned Parenthood does more abortions than adoption referrals" hence they are somehow convincing women to have abortions doesn't make sense to me. Planned Parenthood is a well-known abortion provider, and in some states is one of the few places one can go to get an abortion. If you want to adopt, there are many places/organizations you can contact, you wouldn't need to go through Planned Parenthood.

Almost all women I saw at Planned Parenthood when I worked there had already decided they wanted to have an abortion before they came.
 
Originally posted by tofurious
So how is any attempt at medically managing an overweight patient's insulin not a refusal by the patient to take responsibility for his/her weight? Why should we prescribe statins so freely when most people can and should change their own diet - with the few exceptions? Why don't we deny all morbidly obese patients the chance at bariatric surgery? Why do we treat HIV, chlamydia, gonorrhea, or god-forbid syphilis? Why do we give liver transplants to alcoholics? WHy do we repair GSWs in known gang members?

We treat them because they need treatment. Simply because they need it.

Originally posted by tofurious
With the few exceptions of genetic disorders and crimes, most diseases are diseases of choice. You have basically decided to pick on abortion because of your skewed view of the subject matter. If you truly believe in ANYTHING you have said about choice leading to a consequence, you would be in the business of preaching instead the business of healing. That is where most anti-choice physicians should really be anyway. Sex is picked over and over by churches because any attempt at abstinence only reduces the number of church followers. If one can gain so much weight that he/she can just "bud" off another human being, organized religions would probably teach you to be anti-diet and anti-exercise too.

The sad thing is, all religions intend no harm. It's the people who practice them without ever questioning whether the leaders of these religions deserve to lead that do the most harm. Plus those who use God and religion as their excuse for irresponsible behavior (see the "ex"alcoholic in the white house).

You are correct. Most diseases are diseases of choice and one of our roles as physicians is to help our patients regardless of there choices. However, we also have a role to educate our patients. It makes no sense to wait for a problem to develop that could have been prevented if we had given some appropriate advice and education.

Patients need to understand the ramifications, consequences and risks of their decisions. The choices remain innately their own. However, with good information from a doctor, hopefully, they will make choices that lead to better health and better lives. Then again, perhaps they won't.

As for the religion and the anti-choice stuff in your the post, I'm not really sure where that came from. I haven't taken an anti-abortion stand. I have opinioned that we as a society need to treat sex more seriously than we do and that abortion shouldn't seen merely as a remedy for irresponsibility. (Yes, I realize the fanatics on both sides treat this stuff very seriously -- so much so that they remove themselves from rational discussion into a dogmatic abiss.)

Merlin -- you make some good points. Contraception isn't perfect and the comment by "drvechman" about women not being smart enough to make decisions for themselves is not just outdated. It is wrong. (Everyone, please don't confuse me with "drvechman".)
 
I'm noticing that many of the pro-abortion folks on this thread are side-stepping the real issue........abortion.

they are bringing up things like caring for asthmatic, overweight diabetics etc......

The whole point is that I could care less if you CHOOSE to hurt/harm/whatever TO YOURSELF!!!!!!! Abortion is a CHOICE that KILLS SOMEONE ELSE!!!

This is the whole reason why this debate means nothing and can accomplish nothing. We believe 2 very different things. I believe you are Killing someone else by your choice (murder). same reason you can't murder somebody in society.

you believe that it is NOT murder...............this whole debate is coming from 2 completely opposite viewpoints that cannot be reconciled.

later
 
Originally posted by 12R34Y
you believe that it is NOT murder...............this whole debate is coming from 2 completely opposite viewpoints that cannot be reconciled.

later

Then why the hell did you start up this whole irreconcileable debate by making an inflammatory remark to begin with? Your goal has been to belittle the opinions and beliefs of others, instead of accepting the fact that there are multiple beliefs about when life begins (even withing the Christian sects). Hence, your argument about why abortion is "evil" is moot except to people who share your beliefs.

PS- I really would like to see that CNN link at some point.

In choice,
UC
 
The real issue? The real issue is your stupidity.

Everybody who is pro-CHOICE in this thread emphsizes the WOMAN's right to choose for herself, be it abortion OR adoption. We are NOT making the choice for her. If she has already chosen to pursue the course of abortion before going to Planned Parenthood, why should their staff try to change her mind like the crazed militants lining the streets outside PP or hiding bombs in garbage bins?

For someone to believe that a woman's choice to abort is easily arrived at is simply naive. You only assume that these women happily choose abortion over other alternatives against the motherly instincts many women in their 20s and 30s can describe in detail. Often the guilt of having made the decision to abort stays with the woman long after the anti-abortion zealots have stopped harassing them. Post-partum depression not only occurs in women who give birth but also in women who abort. Your ultra-Puritan blinder narrowly focuses your short attention span on the potential harm done on the fetus without ever considering the mother or the potential abuse and suffering of the child of an ill-prepared mother.

I hope you are not in medicine, as one fewer anti-choice buffoon under the banner of "pro-life" will mean one more physician who will place the patient's best interests ahead of his/her own.

As for JumpShot, your notion that a woman's choice should rest with the act of sex is highly suggestive of the end of a woman's right to choose after she has had sex. It resonates well with the anti-choice battle cry. A woman reserves the right to choose before, during, AND after sex. Anything less is simply unacceptable.
 
yeah, i'm the one who is inflammatory................

did you read the post before this by tortuous?

once again........you believe that is a woman's choice to kill a baby.

I don't. I think it is like choosing to kill a teenager or a grandmother.

so, how do you call my CHOICE wrong? you continue to belittle my choice. how are you any different?

I'll work on getting the CNN article it came from. Right now all I have is the reporters name who did the interview.

later
 
I don't know why I am even going to attempt to defend Planned Parenthood since I know this information will fall on deaf ears...

Anyway, PP is a non profit organization, meaning that any "profit" it makes goes toward patient services, clinic upgrades, etc... You can look up the annual report of any affiliate to determine this information. If you really are wanting to attack clinics making money off of abortions, look at the for-profit clinics that don't use a sliding scale and that don't offer other services. Planned Parenthood is working far harder than most people are to prevent abortions by offering access to affordable or free contraception.

And it is mandatory, according to Planned Parenthood guidelines, that all patients be informed of their pregnancy options, including parenting, adoption, and abortion. I made sure that my staff were doing this. Many patients are self-selecting when they choose to come to PP for information. They often already know that they want to parent or abort and were frequently annoyed when I would discuss adoption with them.

Anyway, I just that the vehement posters on this thread against
abortion aren't going into women's health. Women don't need physicians that refuse to share all of the information necessary to make decisions about their lives and health.
 
I wish I had heard of the conference. I joined MSFC recently but have not really heard anything from them.
I want to urge everyone in this forum to not confuse pro-choice with pro-abortion. The question one should ask oneself is: does the government have the right to interfere with women's reproductive choices? If your answer is yes, then consider this: do we make a 16 yo incest or rape victim deliver? Do we make a 34 yo married woman with 2 children give birth to an anencephalic baby who has no chance of living just because it is "God's will"? Do we go back the days of coat-hanger abortions and women bleeding out and dying of sepsis? In its extreme form anti-abortion legislation will accomplish just that.
43% of women in the US have had abortions. 30,000 abortions are performed yearly in Massachusetts, 90% in the first trimester. Banning aboriton tomorrow is not going to make abortion go away. From a women's rights perspective, it will take us back generations.
When I statred Med School I thought that I abortion was not really my issue. It is not discussed much and unless I go into ObGyn, I could easily spend my entire medical career not having anything to do with it. I think too many physicians have taken this stance even though they believe in the woman's right to choose because they have the "I support it but I won't do it" attitude. Well someone's got to do it because without properly trained physicians there is no choice.
 
I share bowlofcherries' belief that regardless of what specialty one goes into, a responsible physician MUST protect a woman's right to choose just like her right to other medical interventions. The reason is that medical schools let in too many wolves in sheep skin who prepare textbook answers during interviews only to administer their own brand of medicine with extreme prejudice once their foot is in the door. They are always the vocal bunch who denounce this and that while the silent majority remain the silent majority because they don't want to fight with pigs.

I find it ironic that most of the pro-"life" people are pro-capital punishment, pro-gun ownership, pro-individual freedom, and pro-going across half the Earth to conquer/convert believers of other religions.
 
Originally posted by tofurious


I find it ironic that most of the pro-"life" people are pro-capital punishment, pro-gun ownership, pro-individual freedom, and pro-going across half the Earth to conquer/convert believers of other religions.

And also these same people who would do anything, including kill for "the rights of the unborn" do surprisingly little in terms of supporting social policies and health care policies to improve the lives of the newborn.
 
The most recent statistics document an average of 1.4 million legal abortions performed annually from 1973-1998. 2-5% of these pregnancies are terminated due to incest, rape, fetal abnormalities, or the mother's health, while the other 95-98% are simply a means of birth control. In turn, abortion has become a lucrative industry. In practice, abortion providers are confronted with a choice between their conscience and the immense profit to be gained. As a result, abortions are not only being performed upon request, they are being sold to vulnerable and uninformed women. Here are some quotes which illustrate these tactics:

"I was trained by a professional marketing director in how to sell abortions over the telephone. He took every one of our receptionists, nurses, and anyone else who would deal with people over the phone through an extensive training period. The object was, when the girl called, to hook the sale so that she wouldn't get an abortion somewhere else, or adopt out her baby, or change her mind. We were doing it for the money." -- Nina Whitten, chief secretary at a Dallas abortion clinic under Dr. Curtis Boyd

"If a woman we were counseling expressed doubts about having an abortion, we would say whatever was necessary to persuade her to abort immediately." -- Judy W., former office manager of the second largest abortion clinic in El Paso, Texas

"Sometimes we lied. A girl might ask what her baby was like at a certain point in the pregnancy: Was it a baby yet? Even as early as 12 weeks a baby is totally formed, he has fingerprints, turns his head, fans his toes, feels pain. But we would say 'It's not a baby yet. It's just tissue, like a clot.'" -- Kathy Sparks told in "The Conversion of Kathy Sparks" by Gloria Williamson, Christian Herald Jan 1986 p 28

"The counselor at our clinic would cry with the girls at the drop of a hat. She would find their weakness and work on it. The women were never given any alternatives. They were told how much trouble it is to have a baby." -- former abortion worker Debra Harry, quoted in the film "Meet the Abortion Providers" 1989

"In fact many women will come to me considering abortion, and I have been personally told that I am to turn the monitor away from her view so that seeing her baby jump around on the screen does not influence her choice." -- Shari Richards, quoted from the John Ankerburg Show on 3/7/90

It's sad this kind of deceitful attempt to call yourself pro-choice instead of pro-abortion happens in this country everyday.
 
Originally posted by bowlofcherries
And also these same people who would do anything, including kill for "the rights of the unborn" do surprisingly little in terms of supporting social policies and health care policies to improve the lives of the newborn.

Interesting viewpoint? So what does the pro-abortion camp do to support social and health policies that improve the lives of newborns? Abort them?

Please, lets stick to the issue and have a rational discussion rather than attacking stereotypes -- especially when you fit part of the stereotype you're attacking.

tofurious, aren't you pro-freedom? Is everybody who thinks differently than you a wolf? Do they have to agree with you to be a good doctor?

12R34Y, what good does calling everybody murders do? Are you going to sway anyones opinion like that?

Give me a break ... posts that do little more than attack stereotypes (liberal or conservative) are lazy, unproductive, and don't help anybody understand differing views.
 
I know, unlike jumpshot apprently, that i'm NOT going to have the pro-abrotion people reading this thread say......."OH< MY goodness!!!, 12R34Y is RIGHT!!.....i think i'll be pro-life now."

come on....be serious.

No ones mind is going to be changed by a discussion forum on SDN.

I'm merely posting my opinions as I have that CHOICE.

you can share yours too. doesn't mean i have to agree.

later
 
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